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Parenting
catsinawindow
member
S/O School Systems and Teachers
catsinawindow
member
in Parenting
What measure(s) do you think could be taken to fix the current problems in public education?
I'm interested to hear what people think...
BFP#2: EDD 2/11/14, MMC confirmed 7/15/13 (growth stopped at 6 weeks), D&C @ 12 weeks 7/25/13
This discussion has been closed.
Re: S/O School Systems and Teachers
More money being spent towards education less towards building prisons.
Less emphasis on standardized testing, more on building skills.
More parental support.
BFP#2: EDD 2/11/14, MMC confirmed 7/15/13 (growth stopped at 6 weeks), D&C @ 12 weeks 7/25/13
How does one "make" parents care, though? I think most people would agree it's an issue, but what measure could be put in place to address it?
BFP#2: EDD 2/11/14, MMC confirmed 7/15/13 (growth stopped at 6 weeks), D&C @ 12 weeks 7/25/13
Not just underfunding, but the fact that public schools are so unequally funded (poor city or rural schools vs. rich suburban schools).
That, and Pre-K should be mandatory for all kids - lots of studies back up the fact that a good early childhood program really helps later in life.
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
Smaller class sizes - it's disheartening to hear how many kids are in a middle or high school class these days. Maybe we need more of a college approach? Where the generals are taught in larger classes with smaller break out classes with a para or student teacher? That way they can have smaller classes for more specialized classes. I know I always learned more in smaller classes, so I can't see how kids can learn when there are 40 kids are in each class.
Mandatory, publicly funded PreK - It was sad to see kids that couldn't count to 10 in KG. They had huge obstacles in front of them to satisfy the KG requirements right out of the gate. this just compounds itself year after year.
Age appropriate lessons - asking 1st graders to read like 2nd graders is not the answer. And, any gains they make up early on seem to be lost as they age. The lag is with later grades, not younger ones. All they're doing is making kids hate learning from the get go.
No tenure for teachers - I'm sorry, but it shouldn't be so hard to fire a bad teacher. There are lots of great ones out there, but I'm not sure why they deserve any better job protection than anyone else in the general public. I see why it applies in a university setting where a professor may publish research that is not supported by his superiors and I see the value in not supressing that research. I don't see that being the case in elementary - high school education.
Standardized teacher tests are actually already in place in many states. They're called the Praxis. Every state DH has taught in required both a general Praxis (for math, reading, english) and subject praxis (in DH's case middle school science, biology, general science).
BFP#2: EDD 2/11/14, MMC confirmed 7/15/13 (growth stopped at 6 weeks), D&C @ 12 weeks 7/25/13
BFP#2: EDD 2/11/14, MMC confirmed 7/15/13 (growth stopped at 6 weeks), D&C @ 12 weeks 7/25/13
I agree 100% with this. The district I taught in briefly was so regimented it was ridiculous. All the teachers used the same plans and schedules and there was pretty much no flexibility. I hated it.
How might you determine which teachers get this reward? Our state had a small incentive for teachers whose students all scored at grade level or above on standardized tests. DH taught in a troubled inner city school. No teacher there ever got the incentive. The student/parent population just wasn't conducive to that type of "quality measurement".
BFP#2: EDD 2/11/14, MMC confirmed 7/15/13 (growth stopped at 6 weeks), D&C @ 12 weeks 7/25/13
I feel the point is that there is no good way to measure. And so incentives can't work. I did, however, feel like DH needed "combat pay" when he taught in the inner city school. These schools have a crazy teacher turnover b/c they are terrible places to work, and DH was routinely bitten, hit, etc while breaking up fights.
BFP#2: EDD 2/11/14, MMC confirmed 7/15/13 (growth stopped at 6 weeks), D&C @ 12 weeks 7/25/13
I know the kind of education I would like my kid to get.
1) focus on creative and critical thought.
2) secular education with real-life applications (visit historic sites for history, see a play for English, etc.)
3) learn the whys and the hows, rather than just the whats in subjects
4) teachers that are enthusiastic, prepared, supported, and educated.
5) focus on healthy & responsible living (good food in cafeterias, learning actual healthy living in health class, personal finance in economics class)
6) refunding of arts programs and physical education programs.
7) small classes
I also believe that education should be a partnership between the educators, the parents, and the student.
Smaller classes.
More parent involvement/support.
Less emphasis on standardized testing.
Allowing for detentions/suspension for elementary school kids (As needed.)
Not making it nearly impossible to expel kids in the older grades.
Full-Day Kindergarten. Or even have kindergarten mandated. (It isn't in NJ-evenone goes, but it isn't required.)
A federal cutoff date--everyone has to be 5 by the first day of school--whenever that is. Right now I think our cut off is October 1st? Not sure. Anyway we have some students that are way to young to head to kindergarten at 4.
This may be UO as well, but...
Stop teaching all kids so they can go to college. We may need be realistic and teach some kids vocational skills. This may also lead to having so many college educated people without jobs.
NCLB needs to be thrown out the window. The nation is telling parents that it's the school's fault. It says it's the school's responsibility to get the kids to pass. I truly believe that this is why the parent support is not there. Besides, it's a nationwide idea that it HAS to be someone else's fault.
This is quoting fredalina: I'm sorry, but I'm not buying that there's no way to implement a bonus or incentive. SOMEONE knows who the effective teachers are. Principals, other teachers, someone for sure does. Maybe each school gets $10/student/year to distribute the best way it sees fit as an incentive. Sometimes it may go to nearly every teacher, or sometimes it may go to one teacher per grade. Which brings up another point: I think *some* ability to compete between schools for good teachers is a good thing, as long as parents can also compete between schools (which I think is a good thing). Competition drives performance
Schools are very political. In some school districts, letting the administration choose who to reward may work. In other schools, it will be the principal's friends who get the extra $$. A lot of schools would probably split it evenly to avoid hurt feelings. It's still a better idea than currently implemented incentives, though.
Currently, parent competition for schools (or school choice, I assume you're talking about) tends to cluster the best kids in certain schools and the worst kids in other schools. Read: involved parents vs. not-involved parents. It's one way to do things, but it also creates great disparity among the schools. It's similar to the "busing" vs "no-busing" and "neighborhood schools" arguments.
It's one I'm torn on, as well. As a parent, I'd want to send DS to the best schools with the best peers around. But I also know that there's research that shows that, on average, the high-risk kids do better when surrounded by low-risk peers. I think school choice and neighborhood schools are putting a band-aid on a much bigger wound that needs to be fixed.
BFP#2: EDD 2/11/14, MMC confirmed 7/15/13 (growth stopped at 6 weeks), D&C @ 12 weeks 7/25/13
Having no tenure and trying to eliminate the practice of having too many new teachers don't really work together.
This is an honest question: For people who don't want teacher tenure bc it's "too hard to fire bad teachers", what percentage of school teachers are bad enough to fire? I hear this comment tossed around all the time, and I'm curious what people think.
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
Re: the expelling
Maybe it differs from state-to-state? From what I've heard it's HARD to get expelled in our state, regardless of the age of the student. You pretty much have to seriously physically injure / sexually molest someone to get expelled.
BFP#2: EDD 2/11/14, MMC confirmed 7/15/13 (growth stopped at 6 weeks), D&C @ 12 weeks 7/25/13
Portfolios are a good way to assess how well a teacher is doing, but it takes a lot of work and time (and money). My DH gets peer reviews as a part of the employee review process every year - something like that would work well with teaching.
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
This could be a way to do it. Teachers are evaluated several times a year. It certainly would be time-consuming and somewhat subjective to figure out who gets an incentive and who doesn't, though.
BFP#2: EDD 2/11/14, MMC confirmed 7/15/13 (growth stopped at 6 weeks), D&C @ 12 weeks 7/25/13
I like the Value Added system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_modeling It does use test scores, but it makes apples-to-apples comparisons of the same students.
This is good in theory, but has some problems.
I teach gifted students. These students consistantly test in the top 5% of their grade level peers. There isn't enough room for them to show improvement on the tests. A kid who tests in the 50th percentile has a large space above them to improve. A teacher who teaches this student could see high value added scores (greater than a year's growth). The best I can expect, on the other hand, is to have students show a year's growth. They can't go beyond this because they're already ranking at the top. They have to stay at the top. So a good teacher who teaches average students will get more pay than I will because (s)he has more room to grow with those students. Even if my students make more than a year's growth in knowledge and ability, the test doesn't allow them to show this.
It really has to be a combination of test scores, value added rankings, and observation. There has to be some accommodation given to teachers who can't do well in one of these areas due to the circumstances of their teaching situation. Even this still relies on standardized tests, and teaching students to pass a test is not preparing them to be successful in life.
As a teacher, I think classroom size makes all the difference. Ten kids in a math class: they all learn. Thirty kids in a math class: 10 learn, 10 disrupt and 10 are too self-conscious to ask questions and the teacher is stressed out.
It's not that teachers need more training, it's that they need fewer students at one time.
I taught in a district like that and I would point out errors in the curriculum. Never fixed. Jesus was not born in Jerusalem and it is also not the holiest city is Islam (world religions section of World Geography).
I think class size was larger back in our parents' time. Class sizes were huge, but kids were a lot more respectful, parents backed the school instead of their kids when the kids misbehaved, and the concepts being taught were a lot more rote memorization and a lot less critical thinking. So, not having seen the study myself, my guess is that it's looking at too large a time frame.
And, purely anecdotal evidence, when I started teaching 9 years ago, I had 23 students in my class. Two years ago, I had 28. We've had an increase in students, but no increase in general classroom teachers. We have hired additional Intervention Specialists (i.e. Special Ed teachers), but with inclusion, they don't reduce class size at all.
::::deep breaths::::
1. Do you understand how many people in the "general public" work jobs that operate under some sort of seniority system? TONS. Many, many, many people (public AND private sector) work at organizations that use straight seniority for things like bonuses, raises, promotions, and layoffs. It's not like teachers are the only ones on the planet with this benefit.
2. So assume tenure is gone, ok? You're the principal. YOUR job is on the line unless you close a $100,000 budget gap. The parents are up your ass because they don't want ANY programs cut. The school committee is up your ass to balance the budget. Your options to close this budget gap are to fire ONE awesome teacher with 30 years of service, or fire THREE mediocre new-ish teachers. Well, firing the three new teachers is going to create larger class sizes (obviously) and you'll have to pay unemployment benefits for THREE people. Or you could just fire one awesome teacher. Do you trust that most principals would do the right thing and keep the awesome teacher? Or do you think they'll keep THREE mediocre teachers? Without SOME sort of seniority system, how would any teacher keep their job longer than 5-10 years before being cut for being "too expensive?"
3. If not seniority, what? Teacher evaluations? Ok, I like that idea. My school has about 100 teachers. To effectively evaluate their teaching and get a true sense of how competent they are, you would need to evaluate them for a minimum of 15-20 hours per school year (out of the 1000+ hours that they teach per year). So 100 teachers, evaluating them for 20 hours each. Ideally, these evaluations should not all be done by the same evaluator. So my school (a relatively small high school) would need to hire at least three full time employees who do NOTHING but evaluate teachers. The principal can't spend 2,000+ hours per year evaluating teachers. Do you know how much it would COST a school district to implement a fair, adequate teacher evaluation system? I'm not saying it's a waste of money, I'd fully support a system like this. My point is that it's probably unrealistic. It's just so oversimplistic to say "no teacher tenure!" when you offer absolutely no fair alternative system.
4. FWIW, I agree with you wholeheartedly that smaller class sizes is a huge key to improving our education system. Again, though, smaller classes = more teachers. Where is that money coming from?????
I teach in CA and was required to take several tests in order to receive my teaching credential. I had to take 1 before I was admitted into the fifth year credential program, another hefty 3 section test in order to do my advanced student teaching and a third test to measure my competency at teaching reading/writing. I am well prepared and very confident in my ability to teach.
Also... I was very hesitant to open this thread because I thought it would be full of teacher bashing and am so pleased to see such support for the education system.
I know exactly what you mean. Lots of districts have probation for new teachers, it takes a few years before you get tenure, which I think is fair. I agree that having a good mentoring system in place for new teachers can make all the difference, too.
I'm asking you: Exactly what percentage of teachers are bad? 5%? 25%? 50%? Who gets to decide to fire the "bad" teachers? The principal alone? I've seen some vindictive and petty principals who would relish the opportunity in getting rid of employees they just don't like.
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
I agree, teacher tests (at least in Massachusetts) are VERY difficult.
Regarding teacher bashing, I think one quick way to improve the education system would be for people to STOP teacher bashing. The worst part about it is that the kids pick up on it (at least my high schoolers do). They read the newspapers, they hear their parents shitting on teachers (b/c of course everything is the teacher's fault, not their kid's fault. They internalize that. How can we expect students to respect their teachers when NOBODY ELSE DOES?
I'm not sure why you think that tenure should be done away with? If a teacher isn't doing their job, tenured or not, they can and should lose their job. All tenure guarantees is that the teacher will have a job if the funds are there. If the budget does not support that, they will be given the opportunity to substitute at their regular rate of pay as opposed to the shamefully low rate that other subs are paid.
Again, in CA where I teach, I am certified to teach K-6, PE to 9th grade and dance up through 12th. Those are the only areas that I am allowed to teach in... I'm not sure how things are in your state?
And again... In CA, there is a 2 year induction program that all new teachers must go through in order to clear their credential. You are under the supervision of an advisor who watches you teach and provides feedback. There is a lot of self reflection papers to write and seminars to attend.
Are you involved in education yourself?
Totally agree. It makes me so sad to know that there are people out there who thinks that teachers are in it for money or other poor reasons. I feel that the vast majority of us went into this profession (yes we are professionals) because it is what we are called to do. Being a teacher is difficult and at times draining, but I cannot imagine doing anything else.
I was a public school teacher for 11 years. Honestly, the biggest problem I saw was with parenting. I didn't children while teaching and now that I do, it only reaffirms my belief that, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree."
As a Kindergarten teacher for 13 yrs...oh so much but I will keep it to five.
1. The Administrators are often out of touch with the everyday in classrooms. They should be required to teach a class in various grade levels for an entire day on their own (like a sub)...see how they handle it....I would Love to see it!!!
2. Smaller class sizes---how effective can I be when trying to reach each of my 20 4/5yr olds on a daily basis! Oh I am alone in the room too.
3. More money going the right things--classroom supplies and more teachers and para's! Art and Music classes!!
4. Less standardized testing--do people really think that teachers have know idea how to assess their students. Last year I felt like I couldn't teach because every other week I had to stop for a week to test..again. Oh and it is great when the testing doesn't help me teach.
5. The biggest one PARENT SUPPORT AND INVOLVEMENT!!!!!!!! Alot of the behaviors and issues come from this. I am one person and can not do it all. Education starts at home. Appropriate behavior should be taught at home. I shouldn't have to deal with the behaviors..hitting, screaming, backtalking, eyerolling, definence. I love when the parents never take the blame it is always someone else's fault..their child can do no wrong. But it is my fault if your child hurts another student or me??!!
I agree 100%. I never suggested parents should stop talking about teachers or education at home. I just think it should be respectful (it usually is not, op-eds in local papers are a great example). Teacher bashing and statements (not from you, I'm just speaking generally) like "end tenure! fire all the bad teachers!" are over-simplistic, unrealistic, and completely unproductive.
I also never said the status quo shouldn't be challenged. Like I said, I would completely support (and LOVE) a thorough, fair teacher evaluation process that could be used as the main criteria for promotion and firing. I've just never seen a fair, thorough system. Ever.
I think everyone in society has a place in the discussion on education. That said, it *is* frustrating when people who have never spent a second in a classroom (again, not you, I'm speaking generally now) seem have all the answers to fixing education. They don't have a clue what's going on. If I seem to have a stick up my butt about the issue, it's because I do. I love my job and I work VERY hard. Yet, my work is trashed by the media, members of the community, parents, and students on a regular basis. It's infuriating.
I don't think that the conversation should stop, but I do think that there should be more productive problem solving, as opposed to uninformed finger pointing. Which for clarification I am not saying that anyone in this thread is doing
There is a massive amount of teacher bashing going on in our country right now. Teachers are not the be-all, end-all of education. I don't know any teachers IRL who are doing it for the summers off - they teach because they are passionate about it. If our society respected teaching and teachers, there wouldn't be a concerted effort to privatize and union-bust teachers right now.
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
OK, I just have to say that there is no test that can be created that could judge your ability to teach. There is so many qualities that go into teaching that could never be on a test.
And I know I already threw in my 2-cents, but I have to agree with the smaller class size. My class size AVERAGE was 20 6 years ago. Now, my SMALLEST class last year was 26. And they don't make the math classes smaller. Trust me.
I believe there are many things at the school level which would improve our system. Smaller class size, less emphasis on standardized testing, more parent involvement, etc. However, I don't think anything will change without a greater societal change. We need to support communities so that parents will be better able to take care of their children. No one should have to worry that they won't have a place to live, or have to work three jobs to support their families. If parents were able to stay in one place, instead of moving around to find affordable housing, students would stay at the same schools. This would allow them the opportunity to flourish in one place, instead of feeling behind because of moving.
If people were able to work only one job and support their family that way, they would (theoretically) have more time to spend with their children, preparing them for school. Not having to worry about where their next meal will come from would help a lot of students feel more prepared for school every day. Some kids don't get any meals except the ones they have at school, and that doesn't help them feel ready for school.
We, as a nation, need to better support one another. We need to respect each other more as a whole. If everyone involved in the education system were able to respect one another and work together to support the children, I believe things would go a lot more smoothly.
Oh, and I also think it would greatly benefit everyone if we didn't expect every child will go to a university. It's unrealistic and doesn't help anyone. The idea that college is the only way to go is ridiculous. I don't think the tracking system used in some other nations is a bad thing, and it plays to students' strengths. Every student should leave school prepared for the next step, whatever that is. Every student should have exposure to and mastery of all the important subjects.
This is the test that is administered to teaching credential candidates in CA to asses your ability to instruct reading, it's called the RICA (Reading Instruction Competency Assessment) https://www.rica.nesinc.com/RC16_overview.asp
I apologize that it isn't a clicky link... On an iPad
It doesn't tell if someone is a good or bad teacher, but it does test for knowledge of strategies that would make one an effective educator.