Apparently I've been hanging out with non-vaxers.

pearblossom · June 2012

I recently found out that the group of super crunchy moms I have been having park dates with is composed of several non-vaxers and partial vaxers. I was really surprised to find this out, as they have been very warm and welcoming to me and they seemed very intelligent, though definitely not mainstream.(I guess I thought they'd be easier to spot...possibly wearing dunce caps?)

I spoke with my dear friend who introduced me to the group and I told her that nice as they are, I ultimately am not comfortable exposing my kids to theirs and the risk is just not worth it to me. They all know each other through a Waldorf school, so goodness knows how many of those kids aren't vaccinated. The more I think about it, the more the possibilities scare the everloving crap out of me.

I don't know what she'll tell them. I don't want to do some big GBCPG, I don't want to fight with or educate them, I just want to never let their grubby kids near mine ever again. WWYD? How would you break up with them?

pennysuedog · June 2012

I would just keep telling them that you have other plans when they plan to get together.

LCass · June 2012

Scary! I don't blame you for not wanting to hang out anymore. I think you've already told your friend, now you can just be "busy" when you're invited to things.

We were discussing vaccinating (or not, as the case may be) the other day with friends. One friend is in her last year of peds residency and she says she has already seen one death and a number of very serious illnesses due to parents choosing not to vaccinate, and that's in a relatively short amount of time. Another friend said her SIL refuses to vaccinate her kids; the friend and her husband don't have kids yet, but I worry for when they do.

babes12 · June 2012

I would be 100% honest! and just tell them you don't feel comfortable.

PansyPants · June 2012

I'm the teeniest bit offended by your post.

I wasn't vaccinated as a child (neither was my brother) and my son is only partially vaccinated. As a child I never had any of the traditional illnesses that most vaccinated children do and almost never got any type of sickness. To call unvaccinated children "grubby" is insulting.

I don't want to argue with you but I would strongly suggest you educate yourself to their side of the issue just as thoroughly as you feel they need to educate themselves to your side.

christiney06 · June 2012

Mackalien13:
I would explain it the way you did to us. Just tell them you respect their choices and that you don't want to get into an argument, but you don't feel comfortable.

ditto. you don't have to preach to them but i think dodging them is immature and they should know your reason. maybe that will make them think about the ramifications of their decisions!

i'm LOL'ing at GBCPG

pearblossom · June 2012

PansyPants:
I'm the teeniest bit offended by your post.
I wasn't vaccinated as a child (neither was my brother) and my son is only partially vaccinated. As a child I never had any of the traditional illnesses that most vaccinated children do and almost never got any type of sickness. To call unvaccinated children "grubby" is insulting.
I don't want to argue with you but I would strongly suggest you educate yourself to their side of the issue just as thoroughly as you feel they need to educate themselves to your side.

Well, I'm the teensiest bit offended that they would hang out with my infant without ever thinking to mention to me that their kids could be carrying diseases that could kill him. I'll grant you that calling their kids grubby is a bit of a low blow. But we aren't talking about 'traditional' illnesses here. We're talking about preventable diseases that can permanently alter or end my child's life. I live in CA where there have been some serious disease outbreaks due to non vaxing trends. These risks are very real and I take them very seriously.

ETA: Do you know Somebodysmama?

karinothing · June 2012

pearblossom:
PansyPants:

I'm the teeniest bit offended by your post.

I wasn't vaccinated as a child (neither was my brother) and my son is only partially vaccinated. As a child I never had any of the traditional illnesses that most vaccinated children do and almost never got any type of sickness. To call unvaccinated children "grubby" is insulting.

I don't want to argue with you but I would strongly suggest you educate yourself to their side of the issue just as thoroughly as you feel they need to educate themselves to your side.

Well, I'm the teensiest bit offended that they would hang out with my infant without ever thinking to mention to me that their kids could be carrying diseases that could kill him. I'll grant you that calling their kids grubby is a bit of a low blow. But we aren't talking about 'traditional' illnesses here. We're talking about preventable diseases that can permanently alter or change my child's life. I live in CA where there have been some serious disease outbreaks due to non vaxing trends. These risks are very real and I take them very seriously.

Yeah, I am not sure why you would mention traditional illnesses as those have really nothing to do with vaccines. It is not like you get the MMR vaccine and then you get a cold.

Anyway, I wouldn't even tell these parents that you respect their decision. I would flat out tell them that I don't agree with what they are doing, that I think it is dangerous, that I am not willing to put my kid at risk, so peace out! But then again, this is one issue I really can't stay polite on.

Basically I know someone who died of the flu (who was young and healthy). Ever since then I can't take this non-vax crap.

alison2379 · June 2012

They need a warning label.

Fianschneid · June 2012

Mackalien13:
I would explain it the way you did to us. Just tell them you respect their choices and that you don't want to get into an argument, but you don't feel comfortable.

This. You can respect their choices and they can respect yours. Right now, your child's safety and health is the priority.

Shannon526 · June 2012

alison2379:
They need a warning label.

Yes

UFCasey · June 2012

Ugh! I am so sorry you are having to deal with this. I think honesty is the best policy, even in awkward situations like this. It would be something along the lines of

'I didn't realize you were against vaccinations and your children are not vaccinated. I am not going to try to change your mind on this issue, but I have to look out for my child's best interests, just like you have to look after yours. For me that means not having my child have contact with unvaccinated children if I can prevent it. I just don't want to take the risk."

Don't let the word 'sorry' come out of your mouth. Because you're not! Stick out tongue

I agree with Alison - non vax'd kids do need a warning label! I swear from now on I will make a point to straight up ask whenever I come into contact with new parents/children. I don't want to be unknowingly risking Rocco's health for a playdate!

PansyPants · June 2012

I'm not going to defend the choice that my husband and I made, but we took it very seriously and did what we can live with. Obviously we feel that some vaccinations are important other wise we would have declined them all.

To expect non/partially-vacinated children to wear warning labels or expect their parents to inform you of their personal choice upon meeting is shocking to me. In fact, this whole assumption that it's my responsibility to safe guard the health of your child is shocking. Just because a child hasn't been vaccinated does not mean that they are a ticking time bomb of doom.

Is it really my responsibility to inform you of the healthcare choices of my child? What about illnesses that adults carry that children can pick up? Is it the adults responsibility to inform you that they had chicken pox as a child and therefore might have a bought of shingles now as an adult? Perhaps we should all live in bubbles and avoid each other completely!

You might think I'm kidding on that one but I know of four babies that got chicken pox in the last three months because one of their fathers had a shingles outbreak and the other babies parents worked with him. Is it his responsibility to apologize to their families for being unknowingly contagious? Because the way everyone is acting, I wouldn't be surprised if you did demand an apology from him.

That about children that aren't vaccinate for religious or health reasons? Are you really going to teach your child that they can't play with another family because of their religion or because they're different? Because if so, I don't want my son playing with your closed minded and judgmental kid.

I promise I'm not trying to antagonize everyone and I'm honestly not an anti-vaccine crusader, I'm just stunned by the lack of respect for others.

karinothing · June 2012

PansyPants:

I'm not going to defend the choice that my husband and I made, but we took it very seriously and did what we can live with. Obviously we feel that some vaccinations are important other wise we would have declined them all.

To expect non/partially-vacinated children to wear warning labels or expect their parents to inform you of their personal choice upon meeting is shocking to me. In fact, this whole assumption that it's my responsibility to safe guard the health of your child is shocking. Just because a child hasn't been vaccinated does not mean that they are a ticking time bomb of doom.

Is it really my responsibility to inform you of the healthcare choices of my child? What about illnesses that adults carry that children can pick up? Is it the adults responsibility to inform you that they had chicken pox as a child and therefore might have a bought of shingles now as an adult? Perhaps we should all live in bubbles and avoid each other completely!

You might think I'm kidding on that one but I know of four babies that got chicken pox in the last three months because one of their fathers had a shingles outbreak and the other babies parents worked with him. Is it his responsibility to apologize to their families for being unknowingly contagious? Because the way everyone is acting, I wouldn't be surprised if you did demand an apology from him.

That about children that aren't vaccinate for religious or health reasons? Are you really going to teach your child that they can't play with another family because of their religion or because they're different? Because if so, I don't want my son playing with your closed minded and judgmental kid.

I promise I'm not trying to antagonize everyone and I'm honestly not an anti-vaccine crusader, I'm just stunned by the lack of respect for others.

1. Vaccinations are a PUBLIC HEALTH issue. They aren't some "my life my business" kind of thing. I am sorry but they aren't. They involve the greater good of society and when babies/children/adults are dying because others aren't getting vaccinated that is a big deal despite what you think.

2. And yes, someone who infects other people with shingles/chicken pox should apologize upon learning that they infected someone else. What kind of world do you live in where you wouldn't apologize for that?

LCass · June 2012

PansyPants:
That about children that aren't vaccinate for religious or health reasons? Are you really going to teach your child that they can't play with another family because of their religion or because they're different? Because if so, I don't want my son playing with your closed minded and judgmental kid.

That's exactly WHY it is so important for our children to all be vaccinated. The only protection for those who CAN'T be vaccinated (for health reasons, age or even religion) is for everyone who CAN be to be!

And I do think that the onus is on anyone who goes near a baby to warn the parents if there is a potential risk, even if you personally don't perceive it as one. If you have a cold, you don't go up and cuddle a newborn. If you aren't vaccinated, you stay away from a fragile infant or at least let the parents know so they can make a choice. And if you have an outbreak of shingles, which is known to be very contagious, and you are around people with young babies, you warn them.

karinothing · June 2012

Is there a religion other than Christan Scientist that doesn't vaccinate? Because when I google it all it comes up with is people asking how to lie to school officials about their religion.

pearblossom · June 2012

I never said I would like an apology from these women. I am a little shocked that they allowed me to join their group with an infant in tow, as our children have been sharing toys and food. However, I can see how if you don't believe in vaccinating, it would not occur to you to see your children as a threat to mine.

We are not here to discuss whether it is okay to not vaccinate. It's pretty clear that I disagree with it. Not sure where you were last week, pansy, but you're not throwing out anything that wasn't spewn by Somebodysmama. The fact of the matter is that this is a group of several unvaccinated children who go to a school notorious for unvaccinated children. If an outbreak happens, it will run rampant through them and straight to my infant. I cannot sleep at night knowing that I would be knowingly putting him in danger of death or permanent harm. To me, it is the same thing as not buckling his seatbelt. If you knew another parent was engaging in any other harmful activity, you would absolutely protect your child. It's not a matter of tolerance or respect, it is a matter of safety.

All that being said, despite my trash talking in my OP, I do genuinely like these women and am sad to have to say goodbye to them. It is a difficult decision and I know it will be tough once the truth comes out. The advice I am asking for is how to handle that situation, pansy. Not how to educate them or myself. But thanks for assuming that my decision was not well informed.

UFCasey · June 2012

PansyPants:
I'm not going to defend the choice that my husband and I made, but we took it very seriously and did what we can live with. Obviously we feel that some vaccinations are important other wise we would have declined them all.
Honest question - how did you decide what vaccinations were 'important' and which ones were not?
To expect non/partially-vacinated children to wear warning labels or expect their parents to inform you of their personal choice upon meeting is shocking to me. In fact, this whole assumption that it's my responsibility to safe guard the health of your child is shocking. Just because a child hasn't been vaccinated does not mean that they are a ticking time bomb of doom.
By not being vaccinated, you are making it the responsibility of everyone else to safe gaurd the health of your child. Not the other way around. So stop being so shocked. We are safegaurding you, you are most definitely not safegaurding us.
Is it really my responsibility to inform you of the healthcare choices of my child? What about illnesses that adults carry that children can pick up? Is it the adults responsibility to inform you that they had chicken pox as a child and therefore might have a bought of shingles now as an adult? Perhaps we should all live in bubbles and avoid each other completely!
If an adult has shingles, they should not be around children or other adults that have small children. That's common sense?
You might think I'm kidding on that one but I know of four babies that got chicken pox in the last three months because one of their fathers had a shingles outbreak and the other babies parents worked with him. Is it his responsibility to apologize to their families for being unknowingly contagious? Because the way everyone is acting, I wouldn't be surprised if you did demand an apology from him.
If I found out that I had the shingles and unknowingly infected small children with the chicken pox, I would feel guilty. And I would apologize. I'm not kidding.
That about children that aren't vaccinate for religious or health reasons? Are you really going to teach your child that they can't play with another family because of their religion or because they're different? Because if so, I don't want my son playing with your closed minded and judgmental kid.
Children of a different religion or children who are 'different' cannot potentially give my child a disease that might afflict him for the rest of my life or kill him. It's not the same thing. What were your reasons for not vaccinating 100%? I'm assuming you perceived there was some kind of risk involved that you personally felt was not worth taking. THIS IS THE SAME THING. I perceive unvaccinated people to be a risk. Being around them is a risk I do not feel is worth taking. Pot meet kettle if you are going to judge this.
I promise I'm not trying to antagonize everyone and I'm honestly not an anti-vaccine crusader, I'm just stunned by the lack of respect for others.
I think you are showing an amazing lack of respect for others yourself by not informing people of your risk. It's like having an STD and not telling your partner until after you have had sex - "I don't have an outbreak right now, so you probably won't get it...". Not cool.

vitan · June 2012

I have a question...how did you find out? Did they straight out tell you or did you find out through the grapevine? ETA: are you in SoCal or NorCal?

pearblossom · June 2012

Vitan:
I have a question...how did you find out? Did they straight out tell you or did you find out through the grapevine? ETA: are you in SoCal or NorCal?

I am in Norcal. The friend who introduced us all told me. It came up in conversation. At the time I kept my mouth shut, partly because I was so taken aback and partly because I know my friend really admires them. She repeated a lot of the things they told her about why not to vaccinate, and it seemed like she was leaning toward not finishing her own son's vaccination schedule. So it is probably legitimate info, if that is what you're wondering.

The more I thought about it the more I realized how not okay with the situation I am. I have been friends with the one girl for 15 years, so I am a little more invested in my relationship with her. I told her she is way too smart to believe everything some chick with dreadlocks and a bag of oils tells her. Hopefully this doesn't cause a rift between us. But if it does, she can quite frankly consider herself judged.

Brie2006 · June 2012

PansyPants:
I'm not going to defend the choice that my husband and I made, but we took it very seriously and did what we can live with. Obviously we feel that some vaccinations are important other wise we would have declined them all.
To expect non/partially-vacinated children to wear warning labels or expect their parents to inform you of their personal choice upon meeting is shocking to me. In fact, this whole assumption that it's my responsibility to safe guard the health of your child is shocking. Just because a child hasn't been vaccinated does not mean that they are a ticking time bomb of doom.
Is it really my responsibility to inform you of the healthcare choices of my child? What about illnesses that adults carry that children can pick up? Is it the adults responsibility to inform you that they had chicken pox as a child and therefore might have a bought of shingles now as an adult? Perhaps we should all live in bubbles and avoid each other completely!
You might think I'm kidding on that one but I know of four babies that got chicken pox in the last three months because one of their fathers had a shingles outbreak and the other babies parents worked with him. Is it his responsibility to apologize to their families for being unknowingly contagious? Because the way everyone is acting, I wouldn't be surprised if you did demand an apology from him.
That about children that aren't vaccinate for religious or health reasons? Are you really going to teach your child that they can't play with another family because of their religion or because they're different? Because if so, I don't want my son playing with your closed minded and judgmental kid.
I promise I'm not trying to antagonize everyone and I'm honestly not an anti-vaccine crusader, I'm just stunned by the lack of respect for others.

I want to have the energy to respond to all that is wrong with this post (and there is a lot) but I am too d@mn tired.

So, for now all I have to say is, "go away". You are a plague (pun intended) to society and you are making your kid one too.

LCass · June 2012

crystalbaby:
There is no point in trying to debate with these people. They never supply their research that they used to make their educated decisions about not vaccinating. We just have to take it at face value that they're actually making an informed decision rather than the incredibly ignorant and selfish one that it appears to be.

This is what really gets me. Okay, you did your research and made an informed choice. Share the research! Give me real reasons why it's safer for my child to not be vaccinated against these horrible diseases. Don't just act all wounded that you're being judged, even if it is rather harsh in some cases. If you want us to stop judging, give us a reason that supports your decision!

colliebabe · June 2012

Exactly what LCass said. I feel like Rod Tidwell around here..."Show me the research!" Thank you Pansy, for becoming one more person who cannot back up their decision not to vaccinate with any credible research. You are actually only helping my side of the argument.

joolz17 · June 2012

colleenb262:
Exactly what LCass said. I feel like Rod Tidwell around here..."Show me the research!" Thank you Pansy, for becoming one more person who cannot back up their decision not to vaccinate with any credible research. You are actually only helping my side of the argument.

I am cracking up that you just faux quoted Jerry Maguire.

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Apparently I've been hanging out with non-vaxers.

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