Not wanting to start a debate...

mrsbhk22 · April 2012

rels09:

It bothers me that not vaxing is getting lumped in with other natural or "crunchy" choices. There are real, proven benefits to organic food and natural birth. There is no medical or scientific reason not to vaccinate.

THIS! My first two were vaccinated according to the CDC schedule. I do feel that often times shots are lumped together for no other reason than to make few trips to the Pedi, so we will be doing an delayed vax schedule (created with our Dr - not created after some discussion with Dr. Google). I watched my older kids really struggle sometimes for days after getting 4 shots in one visit. I plan to fully vax #3, but not all by the time they are 2-2.5!

babiesbabiesbabies · April 2012

judahsmommy1:
My son is partially vaccinated and I plan to do something similar with this baby. I did a crap load of research about it before making my decisions and ultimately feel that it is MY job (not the governments to decide what is best for my child. My son has had vaccinations for illnesses that are likely to be serious. When making my decision I looked at several factors. 1. What was the disease, and what were the potential/likely complications. I factored in the severity of the illness, likely treatment. 2. What is my son's risk of getting the disease? 3.) What are the potential complications of the vaccine (typically things like a potential allergic reaction and finally 4. How long has this vaccine existed? The last one was particularly important to me. It is not uncommon for a vaccine to be approved, and used, and then recalled. The longer a vaccine has been in use, the less likely this is to happen, and the more likely that any potential concerns about long term effects have already been uncovered.
At this point my son has the MMR vaccine, the T Dap (which includes pertussis), polio and a few others. We have elected not to get the flu vaccines, the vaccine that protects a not fun intestinal illness, the Hep B, and we have postponed the vaccine for chickenpox until he reaches school age. There are a few we would re consider giving him if circumstances changed. The funny thing is, I've called advice lines twice and when asked about his vaccination status I'll list what he's received. Both times the nurse has said, "okay, so he's basically vaccinated."
My decision to only partially vaccinate was not based on sensationalism or Jenny McCarthy's book. (I actually have not read it) It has nothing to do with Autism. It has everything to do with believing that I am the right person to make medical decisions for my son, based on his health and our situation, not the government. And I admit that it bothers me when people insinuate that unless everyone follows the CDC's recommendations to the T they're not a good parent. (Because the government has never been wrong about anything ever!) If you want to follow the recommendations, I totally respect that decision and believe that you're making the best decision you can, for your baby. I just wish other opinions were given the same respect. Sorry this is so long. It's a pet peeve of mine.

I feel the need to point out something here. It's not "the government" that makes the decisions blindly on vaccination schedules. Unlike other agencies, there aren't a bunch of politicians making laws sitting in a desk. The vaccination schedules are based off of YEARS of MEDICAL research, under recommendations from the American Academy of Pediatrics among others. I have never been to medical school, nor do you or I have the resources to the research and studies that have been done to prove why these vaccinations should be given when they are given.

krismott25 · April 2012

First I want to say well done ladies for being respectful of eachothers opinions. Wahoo no mudd slingin!

I read all the comments and I'll try to remember all the ones I wanted to respond too.

For the person who asked why I posted--simply because i though it was a very interesting case, one I hadn't heard about before with a virus that is very common. I'm a geek like that.

I don't mean to link "crunchy" with non-vac people. There are definetly benifits to a cleaner, natural life. We went organic with our IF treatments and i think it made a HUGE difference. I was simply giving a backround of the family and it happened to be all in the same sentence.

For the person who said something to the affect of there is no medical reason to vaccinate. This is just simply wrong. Vaccinations have been proven for generations to stop the transmission of communicable diseases. We don't' have the epidemics like they used too. Just because we don't know these diseases like our previous generations does not mean these "bugs" aren't still around.

For the person who said they don't think the government should have a say how we vac our children. Feel free to not vac but your child should not be able to participate in goverment funded things i.e. public schools , public health departments, sports etc. Much like smoking, why should my child and myself be expossed to diseases because you did not want to vaccinate. You absolutely have the right (in some states) but you don't have the right to put others at risk.

For the record the CDC may be "government" but it also shares almost identical vaccination scheduale as much of the rest of the developed world.

As far as antibiotics being over perscribed. That has changed drastically. It is not common practice to perscribe antibx unless there is a known bacterial infection. I work in health care with a very forward thinking infectious disease doctor who only perscribes anti-bx. And prednisone is a steriodal anti-inflammatory agent not an antibiotic.

Yes most of us survived chickenpox, but shingles is a very hard and painful virus for the elderly population to fight. Once you have the virus it lays latent in your body. Again vaccinations not only help the people who are vaccinated, but they protect the immunocompromised who may not be able to fight these viruses. This strain of herpes zoster can cause pneumonia which could very quickly kill someone in the elderly or immunocompromised population.

Lastly, I guess my hidden point was while this is a rare case it could have been prevented. I personally don't want to take the chance that my child would have any kind of negative outcome because of my choices. I will be first in line to vac my kid and myself whenever they get HIV or cancer vacs. Prevention is always better back tracking when something happens. That's why we eat well and exercise, so we can fight off other diseases. The only difference is we have way more control over things like hypertension and diabetes than we do with varicella and whooping cough.

Sorry so long Zip it!

pixieprincss · April 2012

No matter your stance on vaccines, what happened to this family is a freak accident. Several Western countries do not advocate the varicella vaccine until later than the US does, I am not entirely clear on why that is but I have heard some (educated, like from our doctor) talk that the CDC truncates things more than needed in hopes that through fewer vistits more parents will actually bring their child in. In other words, if this family lived in another country they might have been following the "right" schedule and this still could've happened. The incidence of chicken pox causing serious health problems in a child over age 1 and younger than age 12 is miniscule. Clearly when you are the one in however many, that is all that matters. But, delaying or skipping vaccines is about weighing the statistics--possible side effects of the vaccine (and no, autism is not one of them) paired versus the chance that the malady will have a tragic effect. Also there are things that are less quantifiable like benefits of natural immunity with some of the maladies (chicken pox especially falls into this one).

ballstar · April 2012

Saw a segment about this topic on a local newsmagazine program last weekend. A couple of interesting insights that were shared:

1. One doctor came right out and said that nonvaccinating parents actually (and often consciously) are counting on everyone else vaccinating as a means of keeping their unvaccinated kids from getting sick. It makes sense: You can be the one unvaccinated kid in the class and you have nothing to worry about because none of the other kids are going to get sick and spread an illness because they've been vaccinated. It's "low risk" for the unvaccinated.

2. Another doctor said he strongly believes that the vaccination schedule/batching of shots was designed with nothing more in mind than convenience for doctors and that there's no medical risk from not doing them on the CDC's schedule. So he follows a looser schedule with his patients.

stever · April 2012

rels09:
It bothers me that not vaxing is getting lumped in with other natural or "crunchy" choices. There are real, proven benefits to organic food and natural birth. There is no medical or scientific reason not to vaccinate.

This. I'm crunchy and staunchly pro-vax.

punkrockabye · April 2012

stever:
rels09:
It bothers me that not vaxing is getting lumped in with other natural or "crunchy" choices. There are real, proven benefits to organic food and natural birth. There is no medical or scientific reason not to vaccinate.
This. I'm crunchy and staunchly pro-vax.

Agreed. The only thing we plan to do differently is give one shot at a time, meaning several appointments clustered together, as opposed to several shots at one appointment and having widely spaced visits. The shots will be on time but spread out over a slightly longer timeframe than 5 seconds between shot. I just want to know, if an allergy or reaction does surface, what vaccine caused it as opposed to guessing after my baby has 3 at once. We're very much in favor of having all vaccines (except HPV) though.

We have some friends (near our hometown, so 5 hours away) who haven't vaxed their 5 and 1 year old. They aren't "crazy" about it, they just... decided not to; and as a note, their oldest is very quirky (such an awesome, creative kiddo though) and she is showing signs of being somewhere odd on the autism spectrum. She's very peculiar. Dad also has Asperger's. I'm not sure how I'll broach the topic but we won't stop by to visit them when we're in town to see family until our baby has had several vaccines. I can't risk my child picking something up from an unvaxed child simply because mine is too young to receive a particular vaccine at that point. I hate doing that, because we LOVE these friends, but it'll just have to wait because it's not a risk I want to take.

judahsmommy1 · April 2012

babiesbabiesbabies:
I feel the need to point out something here. It's not "the government" that makes the decisions blindly on vaccination schedules. Unlike other agencies, there aren't a bunch of politicians making laws sitting in a desk. The vaccination schedules are based off of YEARS of MEDICAL research, under recommendations from the American Academy of Pediatrics among others. I have never been to medical school, nor do you or I have the resources to the research and studies that have been done to prove why these vaccinations should be given when they are given.

This is true, but they don't have a crucial piece of information. They don't have information about MY son. All they have are statistics. The Hep B is a good example of that. There are babies who are born who are at very high risk for contracting Hep B, and so those babies should be given a vaccine very early. But my son is not. He's not going to give anyone else Hep B just by walking around, but Hep B is still on the recommended vac. schedule. They made a decision based off of statistics. I made a decision based off of what my son will be exposed to.

I am definitely concerned about vaccine recalls as well. The fact is that the CDC and the federal government DOES make mistakes. (Even though they're run by panels of doctors.) My job as a parent is to weigh the risks and rewards of parenting decisions. As I said in a previous post, he is vaccinated against all the "big ones". But my child is not going to be a guinea pig on which to try newer vaccines unless what they prevent is a damn serious illness that he's likely to get.

poison489 · April 2012

I am doing a delayed schedule/ selectively vaccinating for my son, not necessarily for the autism link, but for the fact that the put a lot of heavy metals in vaccines and they can be frequently contaminated with other viruses. As it is my son has had some pretty harsh reactions to getting just one vaccine at a time- fevers, vomiting, twitching, fatigue, etc. There little bodies can't handle all of those toxins. And lets face it a new born does not need a shot for a sexually transmitted disease. We do our research and make the choices that we feel are best for our child, as I recommend all parents do. We do extended breast feeding and LOs don't/will not go to day care so they are at a reduced risk to exposure to illness.

FYI: vaccines do not guarantee that your child will not get the illness you are vaxing for. There have been a few incidents recently where vaccinated children where actually more likely to get the illness. I believe Whooping cough is one of the recent ones that had an outbreak among vaccinated children. A measles outbreak a few years back also affected vaccinated children. Just like with a flu shot, you can still get the flu. There are also sad cases where they are finding out that vaccines like guardasil are causing deaths among teens.

GypsyEsq · April 2012

krismott25:
Yes most of us survived chickenpox, but shingles is a very hard and painful virus for the elderly population to fight. Once you have the virus it lays latent in your body. Again vaccinations not only help the people who are vaccinated, but they protect the immunocompromised who may not be able to fight these viruses. This strain of herpes zoster can cause pneumonia which could very quickly kill someone in the elderly or immunocompromised population.

You do know that the varicella vax is live right? Therefore, those vaccinated against chicken pox are still at risk for shingles. In fact, the only people who can get shingles are those who have been exposed to chicken pox https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001861/

Ironically a risk factor for shingles is being exposed to the virus before 1 year of age. The CDC vaccination schedule (which is very useful) suggests giving the varicella vax from 12 months to 15 months.

jw87 · April 2012

As someone who has read Jenny McCarthy's book...

It is scary to read, regardless of science, that one day their child is fine and the next after a vaccine they are not. There are lots of parents who swear it was vaccines because they were perfectly fine before the shots and afterwards were not. To them it is a no-brainer and do not understand why science does not back them up. They say they know their kids better than anyone... and they know vaccines caused this.

While her book scares the crap out of me, I chose to vaccinate my son as recommended and will again with this child.

libra31 · April 2012

I feel the need to point out something here. It's not "the government" that makes the decisions blindly on vaccination schedules. Unlike other agencies, there aren't a bunch of politicians making laws sitting in a desk. The vaccination schedules are based off of YEARS of MEDICAL research, under recommendations from the American Academy of Pediatrics among others. I have never been to medical school, nor do you or I have the resources to the research and studies that have been done to prove why these vaccinations should be given when they are given.

The vaccinations are based on YEARS of research PAID for by pharmaceutical companies reaping millions of dollars profiting from the sale of these vaccines! If you think politics/government is not involved you are mistaken. And the vaccines have been researched individually. They have not been researched when 4 of them are given at the same time or 2 at a time for that matter. Why is the vaccination schedule as rigorous as it is...convenience and compliance. You're a lot better off giving babies shots at their appts then getting their parents to bring them back for vaccine appts. More vaccine appts also equate to more work for office staff...ect.

If you remove autism from the equation you still have an entire list that our vaccine schedules could play a role in....asthma, allergies, ADHD, autoimmune diseases to name a few...

What research explains why I should give my newborn a heb B vaccine in the hospital? How in any way, shape or form would my newborn contract hep B if I myself am not a carrier and if I was my newborn would need more then just Hep B vaccine to protect them. Are there risks with the Hep B vaccine? yes! Why should my 1yo receive a rubella vaccine? Rubella is a pretty benign illness unless you contract it early in pregnancy and then it can cause birth defects. Do I believe in herd immunity..yes, am I willing do give it to my children to protect pregnant women...yes, but...can I wait until they are 3 and their blood/brain barrier has fully formed...I don't see why not.

Most countries don't vaccinate against chicken pox. What is one of the main reasons the chicken pox vaccine was developed in the US.... The answer: Missed work days. Parents would have to take off a week or more to care for their sick children with chicken pox and that equates to $$.

Everyone needs to do their own research and make their own decisions. And fwiw, my children are fully vaccinated (excep rotavirus and flu) albeit on a delayed schedule.

linzeek44 · April 2012

Baileigh05:
As a research scientist who has been involved in autism research, I implore all parents to get educated about the facts. Sadly one study that has proven to have been falsified still has parents afraid to vaccinate their children. I will definitely vaccinate. PLEASE educate yourself if you have any reservations about vaccinating. Autism is linked to genetics as well as environmental factors that are not linked to childhood vaccinations.

This. Thanks for posting.

krismott25 · April 2012

poison489:

FYI: vaccines do not guarantee that your child will not get the illness you are vaxing for. There have been a few incidents recently where vaccinated children where actually more likely to get the illness. I believe Whooping cough is one of the recent ones that had an outbreak among vaccinated children. A measles outbreak a few years back also affected vaccinated children. Just like with a flu shot, you can still get the flu. There are also sad cases where they are finding out that vaccines like guardasil are causing deaths among teens.

the reason whooping cough was coming back around was because it was found that adults need boosters. other outbreaks are happening because people aren't vaccinating so those children not vaccinated serve as hosts where the virus can grow and mutate then infect other children/adults. virus' are incredibly "smart." And there is not just one strain of a virus. I personally think microbiology should be taught starting in grade school. Not so much just general biology but microbiology. Not jsust for the bennefit of educating about vaccines, but morre for the education of disease transmission. It's disgusting to me to see someone not wash their hands in the bathroom. I swear i wanted to be the girl in the bubble after taking micro. Having said that i do think there is over-sanitizing and there is a benefit to exposing ourself to some germs.....but that's a whole other discusion.

poison489 · April 2012

krismott25:
poison489:

FYI: vaccines do not guarantee that your child will not get the illness you are vaxing for. There have been a few incidents recently where vaccinated children where actually more likely to get the illness. I believe Whooping cough is one of the recent ones that had an outbreak among vaccinated children. A measles outbreak a few years back also affected vaccinated children. Just like with a flu shot, you can still get the flu. There are also sad cases where they are finding out that vaccines like guardasil are causing deaths among teens.

the reason whooping cough was coming back around was because it was found that adults need boosters. other outbreaks are happening because people aren't vaccinating so those children not vaccinated serve as hosts where the virus can grow and mutate then infect other children/adults. virus' are incredibly "smart." And there is not just one strain of a virus. I personally think microbiology should be taught starting in grade school. Not so much just general biology but microbiology. Not jsust for the bennefit of educating about vaccines, but morre for the education of disease transmission. It's disgusting to me to see someone not wash their hands in the bathroom. I swear i wanted to be the girl in the bubble after taking micro. Having said that i do think there is over-sanitizing and there is a benefit to exposing ourself to some germs.....but that's a whole other discusion.

If you are trying to teach me microbiology, please know that I am university educated. Yes there are different strains of certain viruses, but whooping cough is not one of them. What you missed in my statement is that the outbreak was among vaccinated children. the majority of cases were in fully vaccinated children, only 8% of those affected were unvaccinated. https://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-whoopingcough-idUSBRE8320TM20120403 This outbreak was not in adults, but children that should have still been covered if they were vaxed according to the standard schedule, which the article confirms they were.

Yes, people do need to be educated about communicable disease prevention, but pushing a vaccine from big pharma that is confirmed to not even work effectively is not the answer.

judahsmommy1 · April 2012

libra31:
I feel the need to point out something here. It's not "the government" that makes the decisions blindly on vaccination schedules. Unlike other agencies, there aren't a bunch of politicians making laws sitting in a desk. The vaccination schedules are based off of YEARS of MEDICAL research, under recommendations from the American Academy of Pediatrics among others. I have never been to medical school, nor do you or I have the resources to the research and studies that have been done to prove why these vaccinations should be given when they are given.
The vaccinations are based on YEARS of research PAID for by pharmaceutical companies reaping millions of dollars profiting from the sale of these vaccines! If you think politics/government is not involved you are mistaken. And the vaccines have been researched individually. They have not been researched when 4 of them are given at the same time or 2 at a time for that matter. Why is the vaccination schedule as rigorous as it is...convenience and compliance. You're a lot better off giving babies shots at their appts then getting their parents to bring them back for vaccine appts. More vaccine appts also equate to more work for office staff...ect.
If you remove autism from the equation you still have an entire list that our vaccine schedules could play a role in....asthma, allergies, ADHD, autoimmune diseases to name a few...
What research explains why I should give my newborn a heb B vaccine in the hospital? How in any way, shape or form would my newborn contract hep B if I myself am not a carrier and if I was my newborn would need more then just Hep B vaccine to protect them. Are there risks with the Hep B vaccine? yes! Why should my 1yo receive a rubella vaccine? Rubella is a pretty benign illness unless you contract it early in pregnancy and then it can cause birth defects. Do I believe in herd immunity..yes, am I willing do give it to my children to protect pregnant women...yes, but...can I wait until they are 3 and their blood/brain barrier has fully formed...I don't see why not.
Most countries don't vaccinate against chicken pox. What is one of the main reasons the chicken pox vaccine was developed in the US.... The answer: Missed work days. Parents would have to take off a week or more to care for their sick children with chicken pox and that equates to $$.
Everyone needs to do their own research and make their own decisions. And fwiw, my children are fully vaccinated (excep rotavirus and flu) albeit on a delayed schedule.

This! Especially the Hep B.

Sorry, this is a little bit off topic. But at my son's 18 mo. check up his doctor was on mat. leave so we got a nurse practitioner. She was trying to tell me that it was important for my son to be vaccinated against Hep B in case he was in an accident and needed a blood transfusion. I nearly asked her, "You mean in case he needs a blood transfusion in 1976? Or in Rwanda? Because any blood my son would receive currently in the states would be tested for Hep B." I don't mind the fact that she has an opinion. Trying to mislead me however, made me furious.

abbyful · April 2012

nobadwriting:
krismott25:
prednisone is a steriodal anti-inflammatory agent not an antibiotic.

I was just about to say this.

I wasn't saying prednisone was an antibiotic. I was saying I had a similar experience with getting prescribed something that would do nothing for the condition I had.

The doctor straight-out told me it wouldn't do anything to help (neither in duration nor symptoms), but he would write me a prescription anyway and I could fill it if I wanted to.