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MDmama519
member
I need discipline help (long)
MDmama519
member
I need to apologize first, my thoughts are pretty much all over the place right now but, I am going to do my best to have this post make sense.
DS has a terrible attitude. I don't know what else to do. I don't know if this is just a part of his age or if it's something I am doing wrong.
If he has something or is doing something that he shouldn't have/do and I try to correct him - he flips out. He does not listen to me. He tells me no. He screams and cries when I tell him no and he hits things out of frustration (walls, the couch). He has recently started biting my hand when I make him hold my hand in the parking lot. And, he growls and yells at me.
As far as discipline goes in our house, we've done time out in the corner, time out in a chair, time out on the couch, redirecting, giving him options and taking things away. Nothing is working. I've tried talking to him and explaining to him that when he does bad things that it makes mommy sad but, it doesn't seem to sink in for him. I've also tried rewarding him for good behavior.
Today I reached my breaking point.
I bought him a small ball from Target and he took it into the grocery store with him. He kept throwing it and after a few warnings, I took it away and explained why. Cue meltdown. We're checking out and he's having a meltdown still about the ball. I pull him aside and explain to him that I am giving him back the ball (and this is where I probably went wrong) and he throws it again, even after our "discussion". I just left it in the store. I was so frustrated. All hell broke lose in the car.
We had one more store to go to and I talked to him beforehand, explaining he would be rewarded for good behavior. He did a pretty decent job and I got him a balloon. All is well.
After unloading groceries, we walked the buggy back up to the store, I pull him out and he immediately darts (before I could even blink) for the road. It scared the hell out of me. I dropped my purse and ran out in the road after him. When we got to the car, he's crying - I am crying and trying to explain what he did wrong and it's not. working. I sat in the car for 30 minutes and just cried.
I literally can not do anything with him most days. I am physically and emotionally exhausted.
Everyone tells me to spank him. I have spanked him in the past but, felt awful about it and swore I would never do it again. It's just something I can not see myself doing.
FWIW, we're in speech therapy and I have discussed it with his speech lady. We've tried to look at different things and Autism was ruled out.
I've tried keeping him busy, having playdates, having structured activities..those things will work for the day but, by nightfall..he's hell on wheels.
My husband has a sucky work schedule and isn't much help during the week. When he gets home from work sometimes I retreat upstairs and try to get a few minutes to myself but, I feel like I am not benefiting from it.
I love him so much and I feel so guilty for being frustrated with him.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: I need discipline help (long)
I personally say you should spank him. No one likes to spank their children (if doing it correctly). It is very affective in our household. Time-outs, reasoning, and etc may work at the moment, but not long term. Kids need to know who is in charge. Not them...the parents.
Of course this is my opinion.......everyone has one!
Some kids are "strong willed"--my little brother being one of them, He was also in speech therapy in school and still speaks very fast. (He's 27 now and getting married on Sat so there's hope!) He was the one who would laugh as my dad was pulling off his belt and say: "Bring it on, old man!" I can't offer you any real advice because my son is only 5 months old and each child is different. But I will say, whatever discipline you decide to use, you need to stick by your guns. My brother preferred to get a spanking and "get it over with." We both did. Not much time out at our place growing up. We knew if we acted out, there was a consequence. Fast forward to high school and my dad said if I didn't come home on time, he would take my car. I was always on time, because I knew he meant it.
Also, I think you are "explaining" things too much. Kids don't need a long explanation of WHY you are parenting them. Your son needs to listen to what you say out of respect for you. You don't owe him an explanation for everything.
Thank you SO much for your responses. I feel a little less on edge right now.
I'm absolutely not against the child leashes and am picking one up tomorrow.
As far as spanking is concerned - I agree with Amy. She took the words out of my mouth.
This. I think if spanking is done correctly (never when mad, explaining etc) it can be very effective... I'm sure some people feel it is awful, but something needs to happen it sounds like. Best of luck!
I really, really like this. Good thoughts.
ETA: I don't have anything to add, just wanted to say I hope things get better for you soon, OP.
If you don't feel right spanking then don't spank. Seriously we are against spanking for our family and I really don't see how it is the only effective way of disciplining. Grant it I come from a family who did not spank and DH came from a family who relied on it way to much... he made me promise we would never do it. I know people say never say never but if my DH feels that strongly then it is just not for us. Besides I never would have even thought to spank since I was raised without it. I think you are bluntly saying you are against it and when you did it it did not fill right so I would just rule it out. If something does not feel right then don't do it.
When I worked at a daycare more the two year olds were like this. Sure some were worse then others and a few were little angels even...but two year olds are at a hard point. (in between baby and kid...) and he may just be a hand full by nature. I don't have a 2 year old yet and working at the daycare was WAY WAY WAY different then parenting so I have no advice on discipline. I did recently read playful parenting and love and logic magic and liked both though.
2.5 was DD's worst age. Everyone said it gets worse at 3 but we were pleasantly surprised that it got better. She always did everything early so I think she just went through that really bad stage at 2.5. Hopefully your DS will calm down a bit in the coming months.
I would strongly recommend 123 Magic. It did work for us in the sense that she would stop once we said 1 or 2 but we were still using it all the time. (and still do). It didn't really stop her bad behaviors but made her calm down for the moment, if that makes sense.
Some kids respond to spanking and some don't. I do spank but I don't very often. I know people who use spanking as their only form of discipline and just swat their kids instead of saying no or doing time out. I reserve it for the very bad behaviors. If you feel terribly guilty I wouldn't do it though. I felt guilty when I first spanked DD but mainly because of The Bump. No one in real life ever made me feel bad for spanking. I just had to get over it. I think it's a personal choice and I wouldn't flame you for trying it if you were desperate. Like for example, the running for the road- I would have probably spanked DD if she did that. (I have never spanked her in public though so who knows how I would have reacted).
I think positive reinforcement is great but I would probably watch it with getting him stuff at stores. With my DD if I do it once, she is begging for something every time so I have to be very careful.
I also think at his age, he is old enough to be sent to his room for time outs (as long as he won't hurt himself or anything). I have been doing that since DD was about 2.5 and DD doesn't like it at all, plus it gives me a chance to regroup.
What about the obvious things? Is he sleeping okay and not overtired? Is he getting snacks in between meals so that he doesn't get too hungry and irritable from that?
It is a VERY rough thing to go through and hopefully it is just an awful phase that will pass!!
You took the words out of my mouth. I know that my son is only 15 months old, but it sounds like a lot of confusion and inconsistency to me from what you explained. I will add, I am not one to leave the store if my child is throwing a fit (I used to nanny so I've been in the store with many fit-throwing children before) because then he/she wins. However, there will be a price to pay when we get home. Also, I might re-think going to any other stores (especially if he doesn't know that he's preventing me from going).
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I can not thank y'all enough for the advice and I am SO happy I am not alone.
We fight bedtime. He usually goes down between 9:00 and 10:00 (DH gets home after 8:00 every night and gets him hyped up and just won't settle down). He sleeps 7:30 - 8:00 in the morning and takes about a 2 hour nap in the afternoons. He sleeps in his own bed.
He's a pretty good eater, 3 meals a day with snacks in between.
I have tried working around his schedule for when I have to run errands. I've tried making them shorter, taking a break in between and God knows what else but, there is no difference in how he acts if we go to one store or 3.
Some days with him are so good. We can have so much fun together and he can be a really good kid when he wants to be. He can be very loving and affectionate.
Some days I just want to jump off of a cliff.
It is the age- The month approaching 3 and off and on since then have been rough for us. The tantrums are extreme.
Personally, I think spanking is the lazy way out. I refuse to hit my kid and no matter how hard things get (and you should have seen her this past week), I will not result to such barbaric measures. Also, several current studies have show that spanking actually leads to kids being more violent when they are a bit older.
The best thing I have found is just leaving if you are out. It sucks- especially if you need to get something done or want to be somewhere, but in the end it helps immensely. If we are at home she goes to her room and stays there until I can deal with it or until she stops screaming. My DD can throw some epic tantrums and sometimes is up there for 30 minutes.
I find that it waxes and wanes. Some weeks are horrible, some weeks are fine, and some weeks are stellar.
Also, no more treats! Bribing rarely works and as PP pointed out it is confusing for them.
GL I feel for you. This last weekend was horrible and I have so little patience at this point in my pregnancy. I can't wait to go into labor because my Mom is coming for a week and will be helping me with DD.
I used to teach three year olds, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt because I absolutely acknowledge that it is very different when the child is your own.
Anyway, one thing I noticed was that you seem to bargain rather than reward. I absolutely think that positive reenforcement is very important, but when you use rewards in exchange for behavior, it can get very dangerous. Telling him "if you are good in the store, then you get a balloon" sort of translates to "please, please, please, don't embarrass me in the store, I will buy you something if you will just comply." I have found that rewards are more effective after the good behavior has happened. Ex/ "You were so well-behaved in the store. I am very proud of you, and I want to get you a balloon." I don't think that using rewards in advance are always a bad thing, but I think that in most cases they are less effective.
I'm going to get the book - thanks for the rec!
I will also work on streamlining how I discipline him. Reading back, I do think I am too "all over the place" so, I will follow your advice and try to stick to one thing.
I hate to admit it but, this is me.
See? We're all so different... I think leaving the store right away would just fuel their fire and give more control which is exactly the opposite as what I would think is the goal. Just an opinion, not meaning to be judging.
You're obviously keeping him up late so your husband can see him when he gets home before work, but if he's fighting you for bedtime at 9 or 10, I'm guessing he is overtired. He probably needs to be going to bed around 7 or 7:30. (I know some do later bedtimes but given when your son wakes up, I think he may need a bit more sleep at night). Can your husband try having quality time with him in the mornings before he goes to work?
I am just a really big believer in being well rested. A well rested child is sort of foundational for good behavior. Maybe this is not a problem for your son, but when you mentioned that I thought I'd chime in again. GL!!
Mine isn't even a year and a half yet, so I know I can't help with behavior. But one thing stood out to me. Running less errands might not help his behavior but it could still change how you feel at the end of a day. Fewer public freak outs might still be less exhausting for you at least. Hugs - I hope it gets better soon!
I didn't read the previous posts yet-
however does he nap?
EDIT: Just finished reading the posts- it definitely definitely sounds like he is going to bed too late in the evening- I would try tweaking that.
I definitely feel for you. My DD is a spirited child to say the least, although she also is currently be evaluated for autism. To be honest, I personally do not believe in spanking. I cannot understand how punishing a child's bad behavior with a bad behavior (ie hitting) works. But I understand why you would consider it.
My only advice is that with DD, I work with her needs. As unpopular as it is, I arrange our lives around her needs. I know that isn't what most do. For example you mentioned you had to go to another store after the one in which your son had the meltdown. If it was me, we would just go home. If DD has a meltdown I know she is either tired, hungry, or bored. This results in a lot of going to a restaurant and then quickly getting our food to go, leaving full baskets of groceries in stores, or looking forward to a playdate onlt to cancel it.
Now that doesn't mean she doesn't get punished for bad behavior. I try to focus on positive reinforcement as much as possible. With timeouts the only thing that worked for us was putting her in her room (very little toys in there and it has a baby gate instead of a door).
Does your DS need routine? Do the meltdowns happen when the routine changes? Consistency is key for us but your DS could be very different. Each child is so unique. Good luck!
Ditto ALL of this- this is EXACTLY how I handle things- practically verbatim. I left a store once mid trip. It sucked- however it DEFINITELY worked. Consistency is so important. 123 Magic is the book I have used with Gisele. Works REALLY well.
DH leaves for work at 4:30am =(
I have tried many times to get him in bed earlier. I am a big believer of being well rested as well.
I was consistent with a 7:30 - 8:00 bedtime. He'd take a bath, I'd read to him a story and then I should shut the door. I even tried to lay with him for awhile.
Did. not. work.
He'd come out of his room, have a tantrum, kick the walls, what have you. Hell, I tried putting up a gate to keep him in his room for an early bed time.
I'd LOVE it if I could get him to bed earlier. I'll start working on revamping this as well.
Thank you!
Thank you, poppyseed!
I've read over all of the responses and I definitely have some things to work on with how I discipline him. I really need to be more consistent. Sometimes I am afraid of being too hard on him but, this has clearly gotten me nowhere.
I wish raising children to be respectful, polite and kind little humans was far less complicated!
I would try to do everything I could before spanking... And honestly, I'd spank LO if he was acting this way (of course we have a few years, but still). I am very against spanking until it gets to the point of behavior being outrageous!
I do admit that I judge people in the store or other spots if their kids are screaming after their parents tell them to stop if they can understand (only if I'm having a very tight rope that day!). I definitely hope that my LO knows I'm not playing when he can understand, lol. Me and H have talked and once we to age of spanking (probably 2 - only because we feel that LO will understand things by then and if he goes againt what we say after 2 warnings, 3rd being time-out, and then doing it after his discipline, he will be spanked.
I'm don't like the idea of spanking but both me and H were spanked after our parents decided warnings were not working. Honestly, a spanking definitely made me think twice before doing the action again...
He does sound like a normal two year old.
This may be the hardest thing, but I would try to remain emotion-less about his behaviors. Enforce consequences, but spare the lecture or the anger. He knows he's being naughty and pushing your buttons. Consequences (like taking the ball) are perfect on their own. When you get mad, he's in control, and he knows it. Take the control back. Be lighthearted, tell him why you're taking the ball, then change the subject.
He's a little evil scientist exploring how he can manipulate his surroundings. Don't let him play you. Be glad you've got a smart kid, but be smarter than him and show him that emotions don't rule the day. It will model good behavior for him, too, that just because things don't go your way, you don't react with anger.
As far as how his behavior gets towards the evenings...well, I think everyone may go through that. My friend with three boys calls late afternoon "the witching hour." Everyone's hungry, everyone's tired (including us), and dinner and bedtime can't come soon enough. It's life. You can find ways to make things fun, you can empathize that things are tough, and you can talk about the great things you'll get to do tomorrow.
ETA: Remain emotionless about his BAD behaviors, but I forgot to mention that you should be enthusiastic about his good behaviors! You don't need to comment on his bad times, just enforce consequences, but you definitely should be commenting on his good times. Positive reinforcement goes a long way.
I haven't read any of the other replies yet, but listen, I totally get it. My oldest is...I don't know. Strong willed? Spirited? So many nice euphemisms for "a total pain in the azz."
Now, I love this kid so much it makes my heart hurt. I want to make that perfectly clear. But dealing with him can be a nightmare sometimes. He's been this way since the minute he was born. The nurses at the hospital initially tried telling me how to tickle his toes and wake him to eat, etc., and within 12 hours they said "Scratch that. This one goes from zero to sixty in 1.5 seconds." And he still does. I get comments from his teacher like, "Finn wants to do what Finn wants to do." He doesn't love taking direction. In all honesty, he has a bit of a problem with authority.
I've endured about everything you've described, minus the biting (thank god). Tantrums, shrieking, pouting, etc. I've tried it all, too. So, here's what I've figured out, and it may or may not help you with your son.
- Spanking doesn't work. I did it for a while, because I was pretty much at the end of my rope. The only thing it accomplished was to make me feel like a horrible parent. And I realized I was doing it out of frustration, and there was NO improvement in my child's behavior. All it did was hurt my relationship with my kid. When you have a child who has an iron will, you can't spank it out of him. If anything, it makes it worse.
- He is never, ever going to be the kid who behaves because he wants to please me. That's my youngest, who crumbles if he thinks anyone is mad at him. But, he still desperately wants to be loved and understood. On the days when he's been driving me BSC and pushing one button after another, one of the best things I've found that I can do is to take a deep breath, hold my arms out to him, and say "Come here, Finn. Are you having a tough day?" And almost always, he glares at me for a second and then his little face falls and he says "Mmm-hmm" and he comes and snuggles with me for a bit and then asks me to read him a story. I don't think he likes acting that way anymore than I like dealing with it, but he's got this "my way or the highway" mentality sort of hardwired in him and he has a horrible time turning it off.
- In spite of this, you have to pick a discipline method and stick with it. We use time-out. Maybe you prefer smart-discipline or something else. Smart discipline is good because it takes away privileges, and that sort of hits them where it hurts. It's good currency. Whatever, doesn't matter. But you have to be consistent with it, and you have to be as UNEMOTIONAL AS POSSIBLE because any frustration on your part will just feed it. I would love to tell you I've mastered this, but of course I haven't. But I have noticed that things go a lot better when I'm basically an automaton doling out consequences.
- On the days when you want to cry and tear your hair out, try to remember that these are GOOD qualities in your kid that can serve him very, very well later in life, if you can just figure out how to channel them. Don't try to mold him into something he's not. Stop stressing that he's not your friend's sweet little boy who is so polite and does everything he's asked the moment he's asked. That's not who he is. (You probably don't do this, but I did.) You've got a child who has a backbone, who isn't going to give into peer pressure or be led around by the nose when he's a teenager, or an adult. He's going to think for himself. That's AWESOME, even if it makes things incredibly rough for you right now.
:::Fist of solidarity to a fellow mom of an Anti-Establishment Child.:::
I see that it's been mentioned, but I think you should focus your energy on establishing a better bedtime routine. At your DS's age, my children were sleeping 12 hours a night plus a nap. I know each child is different, but a child under 3, on average, needs 12-14 hours each day. He may be one that needs the full 14 hours to function properly. GL to you.
I could have written half this post about my younger daughter. She gets overstimulated, which leads to meltdowns. I will not spank. A few thoughts, although it seems like many people had great suggestions.
1) 1-2-3 Magic is a godsend
2) Leaving the store doesn't work for us. We don't have the storage space to stockpile groceries/cat litter/diapers so if we're there it's because we're out of something that just can't wait (otherwise I shop on the weekends without the kids). I also know that sometimes my daughter tantrums in a store because she wants to leave, so I feel that if I give in she'll know how to get out of shopping, which is counterproductive.
3) I never try more than one errand in a day unless I can see she's up for it. We go through periods where she's great with it and we could run errands all day but other times it would be a disaster. You have to know your kid with this and follow his lead. I would also bring a healthy snack and cup of water along. That usually keeps my daughter happy for at least a little while.
4) It sounds like he needs to cut out naps. Both of my kids went through a period around 2-2.5 where naps would keep them awake and restless (and truly not tired) at bedtime. They'd fall asleep late (10-11 or later) because their nap left them too rested to fall asleep at bedtime, wake up at their normal time and be an overtired, cranky mess the entire next day. At a certain point for some kids naps begin to interfere with overnight sleep enough that they're a detriment instead of a necessity. We went through a few hard days while I kept her awake during nap time and until dinner and got her adjusted, but once she adjusted to not napping she was far more cheerful and better behaved. It was clear once we got rid of the nap that sleeping during the day was leaving her far more tired than staying awake all day.
Good luck! We've all been there and it's not easy!
I'm not going to extrapolate on what things you could tweak regarding discipline or sleeping. It sounds like you are trying, and you care very much about your son.
Just wanted to chime that we have similar aged sons, and mine does almost everything that you mentioned. It can be a struggle, but it's normal.
Just because kids are difficult at times doesn't mean that you, the parent, are always the cause. Even if you did everything right, some kids are still going to throw fits, and get upset, and challenge the rules. Ditto to PPs about trying to stay emotionless...it is so hard at times, but it works.
My DD2 is the same age as your son, and it is NOT an easy age! I agree with many of the PP's about not spanking, being consistent, and having simple, direct consequences. I'm a teacher and a mom, and in both of those roles I refuse to bribe a child to behave. Reward? Sure. If we've been at the grocery store for an hour and the girls have been good, I might (might...not regularly) say, "You girls were such great helpers. Do you want a treat?" It's a surprise to them and is never offered in advance ("If you're good, I'll buy you a treat.") I actually heard a kid at the store tell his mom, "If you want me to be good, you have to buy me a donut." And her eyebrows didn't jump right off her face (mine did!). She bargained with him. Way to teach a kid that behaving well is an option and should only be chosen if there's a reward dangling in front of him!
We count down from 3 when the girls aren't listening, because counting UP could be infinite: will we count to 3 or 5 or 10? Counting backwards is always the same--there are no numbers left once we get to zero,and they know that. (Math people, shush!).
. We count calmly--not yelling or increasingly loud as we get closer to zero--because the more emotional you are about discipline, the more it becomes about you bring nice/mean vs cause and effect. It's matter-of-fact: when you hit your sister, you get removed from her and sit alone. No scolding necessary--we just pick her up, say, "We don't hit," and move her. When we ask you to put on your shoes, you do it. If we say it again and count down to zero, we put them on for you (and no, you don't get to change your mind and do it yourself after the fact, or zero has no meaning). Again, no anger--this is just the way it works. Cause and effect. They pick that up quickly and know we still love them, because it's not as if we're deciding to punish them in some random way because we don't like their actions. If you do X, Y happens. Every time.
We heap on praise for being a "first-time listener" and if we have to repeat a direction, we try to look them in the eye and say, "This is the second time I've asked you to ____. I need you to be a first-time listener next time. Please ____now."
It helps a lot to word things as positively as possible: instead of "If you throw that ball again, I'll take it away," you might say, "We don't throw a ball in the store. Do you want to put it in your pocket or do you want me to hold it for you?" Same thing, but now he has a choice and holding it for him sounds like you're being helpful instead of punishing him.
Lastly, I think a lot of tantrums at this age can be prevented in advance with a little foresight. I know that if I say, "Can one of you turn off the TV?" DD1 will get there first and DD2 will throw a fit, so I have to give them each a specific job instead. Modeling and coaching is huge: "If you want a turn on the scooter, we need to count on Sissy. Let's count together. Watch how Sissy stops when we get to 20. Great sharing, Sissy! Now it's your turn. Show Sissy how you share, too. When she says 20, we get to hop off. Yay! Great sharing!" Or, "Man, I really wanted that parking place, but that guy got it first. Man! Oh, well. I'll just go find another one. Sometimes we don't get there first, but it's ok. Maybe next time!"
I am by no means perfect at any of this, but it works well at home and in the classroom. I worked with a BRILLIANT teaching partner when I moved to kindergarten, and picked up a lot from her.
When you're consistent, he will start to trust you and see the pattern... and then when you say, "You can put the ball in your pocket or Mommy will hold it for you," he'll know you really will, and he'll put it away. (Usually. He is two, after all!).
Kiwi Fruit, 10.2.06 & Ellie Bug, 4.5.09
My blog: Bear With Us
Ideas on Teaching Your Toddler/Preschooler at Home
My older son is the same way. I love everything MrsHizzo said.
I slept good last night. Man, I feel better today.
I'm going to go pick up the 123 Magic book today from B&N.
DS was such a great sleeper as an older infant, we never had to try any sleep training methods. I'll look into Ferber and see what we can do.
I have couple of ideas that I gathered from the responses that I want to try and see what works.
Thank y'all for your honest input. You have NO idea how much I appreciate it.
And also, the Arkansas vacation (the vacation from hell someone asked about) is currently off the table. Thank God.
Sorry to sound rude but you have a BABY. Frankly, you have no idea what you are talking about and I'm not sure why you have to insert your opinion about everything that you have no experience with daily. You haven't dealt with a toddler. Leaving DOES help the situation. It has nothign to do with CONTROL (which you seem kinda hung up on, remember that clothing post?) - it has to do with the kid being tired, hungry, frustrated - WHATEVER - and it coming out in the form of a tantrum. I've had to leave places before and I can tell you, it calms the kid (and the mom) down quite quickly.
Toddlers aren't conniving, manipulative creatures who can deduce that throwing a fit = "getting control." They aren't logical. It's as simple as that. They act out of emotion, and things escalate quickly with a young child.
Noel - August 2010
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And I just wanted to let you know that right about your son's age to a bit after 3 was HELL in our house. Torture. I was near-tears daily. I finally took a no nonsense approach and when the bad behavior started, he went right up to his room. I explained when he was calm that we wouldn't accept our who family life being disrupted for his outbursts. He was allowed to yell/kick/scream/etc in his room and that was it. My oldest was sooo calm and reasonable until about 3ish - then he turned crazy!! I feel your pain! But he's normal and wonderful again now!
Hang in there!
Noel - August 2010
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