Forced Apologies?

StrawberryAlarmClock · January 2012

Hi, Ladies! I've missed you!

Admittedly, I'm only a few pages into Unconditional Parenting, but Kohn's take on asking kids to apologize piqued my interest. I teach HS and have always disliked the practice of forced apologies but now that I have a toddler, I have done it.

Lete clarify. I think that what I'm doing with Dez is helping him learn what it is to be sorry. At least, I hope I am. My intent is to teach empathy. For example, he poked DH in the eye with a form during lunch and laughed. DH said ouch and held his eye. I told DS, "you hurt Daddy with the fork. Hug Daddy and say 'I'm sorry.'" Then DH hugged DS and said "that hurt, buddy." When DS stopped laughing and looked concerned, we were both content that he had figured out not to stab people in the eye and we forgave him and carried on like normal.

So far in the book, Kohn has not framed his statements with an age bracket. I'm assuming he is referring to forced apologies in kids old enough to analyze and own their actions and reactions. He said that asking kids to say sorry either teaches them to be fake or invalidates their feelings.

Do you think this applies to all ages? What would you have done in the eye stabbing case? Was that teaching DS empathy (is that possible) or forcing him to parrot back a script. Even then, wouldn't he have at least been learning to identify actions that would open the door for apologies and he could later decide how to respond?

OK. I'm rambling...thoughts?

emolm · January 2012

I don't believe that empathy can be taught just like happiness and sadness can't be taught. It either happens or it doesn't.

That said, I believe in forced apologies because fake empathy (and therefore manners) is better than nothing at all.

Teneniel · January 2012

I'm sorry I don't have answers for you, but I just wanted to say that I will be watching this thread. I have always wondered about this. I'm extremely empathetic and my brother is not, so the whole nature/nurture issue around this particular thing has been interesting to me.

kristinmme · January 2012

This is very interesting. My DD is only 5 months, but as a teacher I think about this a lot. In your situation and with children at such a young age, I think it's best to model empathy and teach them in that way. Maybe you could have said a few words to your H expressing concern about his well being. "oh that looked like it hurt! Are you ok?" and then explain that he was hurt because of the eye poke. This doesn't force him to "be sorry" exactly but could begin to teach him to be concerned for others and when you're concerned about others, you don't poke them in the eye. With all that said, I think he'll be fine with the way you handled it - just using it as an example to think out the topic of the thread.

Jena503 · January 2012

I think at a young age, and especially in the scenario you describe, forced apology is the right thing.

If you hurt someone, even when it's an accident and you didn't mean to hurt them, you tell them sorry and you try to make it better (get the ice pack for them, give them a hug, get the adult, whatever). I think it's normal for little kids to not realize that they hurt someone else and pointing out the other person's pain is the only way to teach empathy (if that can be taught). Plus it's good manners.

Teneniel · January 2012

kristinmme:
This is very interesting. My DD is only 5 months, but as a teacher I think about this a lot. In your situation and with children at such a young age, I think it's best to model empathy and teach them in that way. Maybe you could have said a few words to your H expressing concern about his well being. "oh that looked like it hurt! Are you ok?" and then explain that he was hurt because of the eye poke. This doesn't force him to "be sorry" exactly but could begin to teach him to be concerned for others and when you're concerned about others, you don't poke them in the eye. With all that said, I think he'll be fine with the way you handled it - just using it as an example to think out the topic of the thread.

I like this idea quite a bit.

pottermommy · January 2012

I don't think you forced an apology you coaxed an apology. You have to teach a child what an apology is and when it is appropriate. They don't automatically do that or know.

A forced apology would be something along the lines of

"Ana you know that was not right to do that to Chris, you will go apologise or you will not play in the play room."

Ana- "No I not sorry." arms crossed lips sealed, mom then drags her over to Chris and forces her to give an insincere forced apology.

Ana knew what she did, she wasn't sorry, don't force it out that isnt't the teachable moment,

What you did was totally teachable, letting LO understand that when we hurt someone we should be sorry. You did the right thing, showing the behavior and modeling empathy.

Bride2b2004 · January 2012

Every book I read has things I like and things I don't. For me, Unconditional Parenting was mostly miss with a few interesting ideas/ways of looking at things that I like.

I believe toddlers should be taught to say "I'm sorry". I don't think it is something you naturally think of to say and sometimes hurting others brings bad feelings that children don't know how to cope with unless you tell them things they can do (like offer an apology and a hug). I see this with DS1 and remember from personal experience...

I remember some posts about a student, I think it was you, and I posted a memory I have as a pre-teen I had a HARD time choking out an apology and would never say it (typically I would go off alone pout when I felt bad about what I did)... one day my dad made me give another child an apology (I grew up with my mom and she never did) and it was in a rage and it was a mess... but after I did it, it felt good, and it was easier to do on my own after that and I wish my mom had pushed me in that direction from an early age.

ToastieSimons · January 2012

At the HS level, I'm okay with forced apologies.

This doesn't quite apply to us as DS has special needs and is cognitively delayed, but we still practice.

We do shared apologies. Instead of forcing an apology we do it together, no he doesn't talk, or really understand but I practice it as if he did. I get down on his level and say "you hurt daddy when you pinched him, when we hurt someone we feel bad and we say I'm sorry. Let's go tell Daddy i'm sorry". Then we go to daddy and say "B is very sorry he hurt you daddy. He loves you very much and didn't mean to do it".

I agree I don't think empathy can be learned. It's part of neurological abilities, some kids just aren't able to feel empathy while others feel it so much that they can get anxiety because of it. Just as some people have great intuition, some are outgoing, some are introverted. But part of "I'm sorry" to me is manners, it's not just empathy. How often do we say I'm sorry when we really don't mean it? Maybe it's just me and a bad habit, but if I'm standing looking at a shelf at a grocery store looking for a product and someone is behind me waiting, I usually say "I'm sorry". Am I really sorry that I'm looking and as a customer I have just as much right to be there as she does? No, does it make me less inclined to say it? No. Or when someone cuts you off with a cart and you bump them? I say I'm sorry. Am I really sorry? No, she shouldn't have walked right in front of me without expecting it, but I still say it.

aglenn · January 2012

Welcome back and congrats on the new LO!

I think for toddlers, it is less about "forcing" an apology and more about modeling polite behavior. When I think about a forced apology I'm thinking of when it's doled out as a punishment, like a pp said, where you are telling the child to apologize or else face some consequence.

webMistress0609 · January 2012

I think there's a difference between forced apologies & teaching children manners & empathy. Too me, forced apology means "Now go say your sorry!" Teaching is like when Ari pulled our cats' tail. "Ari, that hurt Gabriel. What could we do to make him feel better? Maybe you could say 'I'm sorry' and pet him?"

penguinem · January 2012

We started teaching I'm sorry in scenarios like you described at a pretty early age. Now that DD is two and a half she says sorry on her own, and in her own time. I consider that scenario or some of the other people described as modeling "I'm sorry", too. If DD refuses to say she is sorry (ie, if she hits during a fit or something), we ask her to please think about it and say she is sorry when she feels ready and she always does. Sometimes it's in five minutes, sometimes it's an hour later, but we haven't had to prompt her, so I feel like we have "taught" it, in a way. I wouldn't make her say she was sorry to me or DH, but in a social situation I would prompt her more/ continue to talk about it at intervals until she did apologize to the other child if there was an issue. Also, I always try to apologize to her too when the conflict is with me, and DH does the same; ie, "I'm sorry that I rushed you before the bath tonight but it was getting late and I felt rushed. I shouldn't have done that, but I also didn't like how you yelled at me and threw your toy at me. When you are ready it would be nice if you said sorry too." She responds really well to that, and I feel like it's helpful to model apologizing and taking responsibility for your part in a conflict.

KelliLynee · January 2012

We try to do something I read on this board a while back. Instead of prompting DD to say she is sorry, we prompt her to ask the other person of they are okay. I think it's more beneficial because it is posed as a question, and she is waiting for the answer. In your example, she would be waiting to hear from DH if he was okay after being poked in the eye, and I think in many cases prompting her to ask the question peaks her interest into finding out if the other person actually is okay.

BrittKav · January 2012

I would say something like "Oh no, you hurt Daddy. Look, he has an owwie now. You should say sorry and give him a kiss."

So yeah, I guess I'm for forced apologies. I do try to build empathy though.

rae_dylanzmom · January 2012

Great topic! My two cents are similar to a pp... You have to teach a child what an apology is and when it is appropriate. They don't automatically do that or know.

StrawberryAlarmClock · January 2012

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. Thanks for the insight ladies and the distinction between forcing and teaching.

StrawberryAlarmClock · January 2012

kristinmme:
This is very interesting. My DD is only 5 months, but as a teacher I think about this a lot. In your situation and with children at such a young age, I think it's best to model empathy and teach them in that way. Maybe you could have said a few words to your H expressing concern about his well being. "oh that looked like it hurt! Are you ok?" and then explain that he was hurt because of the eye poke. This doesn't force him to "be sorry" exactly but could begin to teach him to be concerned for others and when you're concerned about others, you don't poke them in the eye. With all that said, I think he'll be fine with the way you handled it - just using it as an example to think out the topic of the thread.

This is a good idea. I like the modeling approach.

StrawberryAlarmClock · January 2012

Jena503:
I think at a young age, and especially in the scenario you describe, forced apology is the right thing.

If you hurt someone, even when it's an accident and you didn't mean to hurt them, you tell them sorry and you try to make it better (get the ice pack for them, give them a hug, get the adult, whatever). I think it's normal for little kids to not realize that they hurt someone else and pointing out the other person's pain is the only way to teach empathy (if that can be taught). Plus it's good manners.

Agreed!

StrawberryAlarmClock · January 2012

pottermommy:
I don't think you forced an apology you coaxed an apology. You have to teach a child what an apology is and when it is appropriate. They don't automatically do that or know.

A forced apology would be something along the lines of

"Ana you know that was not right to do that to Chris, you will go apologise or you will not play in the play room."

Ana- "No I not sorry." arms crossed lips sealed, mom then drags her over to Chris and forces her to give an insincere forced apology.

Ana knew what she did, she wasn't sorry, don't force it out that isnt't the teachable moment,

What you did was totally teachable, letting LO understand that when we hurt someone we should be sorry. You did the right thing, showing the behavior and modeling empathy.

Great example of the difference. Thanks!

StrawberryAlarmClock · January 2012

fredalina:
We had a perfect example of what I like to see happen the other night on the Chik Fil A playground. Char was playing with a girl who was about to turn 4. Char was climbing the padded pole, and the other girl put her hands on it to climb, too. Char took her band off (not really all that roughly) and said no that's her pole and she's climbing it. The other little girl walked over to the shoes, put them on, and walked out and went to her mommy's table.

Char honestly looked confused. On a scale of roughness, this barely registers for her, but the girl wasn't happy and stopped playing with her. Char looked at me, and I said, "Oh no, I think she's upset!" Char said, "I make her sad?" I said, "Yeah, I think she wanted to share the pole and take turns. Can you think of something that might make her feel better?" She ran out on her own and apologized, the girl said ok and came back in and played more, and the girls played well taking turns.

I could have kissed that little girl. In 2 minutes she taught Charlotte a lesson that 1,000 forced apologies couldn't: Her actions have an impact on other people, and when you're mean, other kids won't want to play with you, but when you're nice, you can make friends. Of course you don't just wake up with a 3 year old and they magically know empathy and that apologies help heal hurt feelings. It takes a lot of modeling it at home, using words like, "Maybe daddy would feel better if you said you were sorry" and "Sometimes apologies help people feel better", and yes even, "I'm really mad and I need to hear an apology. You sit down here for a minute and when you're ready you can tell me you're sorry."

I do disagree with pp though. I definitely think empathy can be learned, and can be taught to a point. Some people will naturally be more empathetic than others for sure, but I think the key is to discuss emotions and also why someone might feel that way. At 18 months if a baby cried, Char was pointing it out: "Oh no! Baby sad!" Then I would ask why the baby might be sad. "Maybe it's hungry? Or needs its mommy? Could it be cold?" Now when she sees a sad or mad character in a book she has to explain why it is sad or mad (her answer is usually "needs its mommy" - awwwwww). Keep in mind I had a biter, so empathy was HUGE in our house, and that's about when the biting stopped.

What an adorable story. I'm so proud of Char for seeing that she was the one who made the little girl sad and that her scions could also make her feel better. This is what I'm hoping to give Dez opportunities to learn.

StrawberryAlarmClock · January 2012

Bride2b2004:
Every book I read has things I like and things I don't. For me, Unconditional Parenting was mostly miss with a few interesting ideas/ways of looking at things that I like.
I believe toddlers should be taught to say "I'm sorry". I don't think it is something you naturally think of to say and sometimes hurting others brings bad feelings that children don't know how to cope with unless you tell them things they can do (like offer an apology and a hug). I see this with DS1 and remember from personal experience...
I remember some posts about a student, I think it was you, and I posted a memory I have as a pre-teen I had a HARD time choking out an apology and would never say it (typically I would go off alone pout when I felt bad about what I did)... one day my dad made me give another child an apology (I grew up with my mom and she never did) and it was in a rage and it was a mess... but after I did it, it felt good, and it was easier to do on my own after that and I wish my mom had pushed me in that direction from an early age.

I do remember that story and that brings up a good point. Not only would I be teaching Dez how to make others feel better but also how to make himself feel good!

StrawberryAlarmClock · January 2012

ToastieSimons:
At the HS level, I'm okay with forced apologies.

This doesn't quite apply to us as DS has special needs and is cognitively delayed, but we still practice.

We do shared apologies. Instead of forcing an apology we do it together, no he doesn't talk, or really understand but I practice it as if he did. I get down on his level and say "you hurt daddy when you pinched him, when we hurt someone we feel bad and we say I'm sorry. Let's go tell Daddy i'm sorry". Then we go to daddy and say "B is very sorry he hurt you daddy. He loves you very much and didn't mean to do it".

I agree I don't think empathy can be learned. It's part of neurological abilities, some kids just aren't able to feel empathy while others feel it so much that they can get anxiety because of it. Just as some people have great intuition, some are outgoing, some are introverted. But part of "I'm sorry" to me is manners, it's not just empathy. How often do we say I'm sorry when we really don't mean it? Maybe it's just me and a bad habit, but if I'm standing looking at a shelf at a grocery store looking for a product and someone is behind me waiting, I usually say "I'm sorry". Am I really sorry that I'm looking and as a customer I have just as much right to be there as she does? No, does it make me less inclined to say it? No. Or when someone cuts you off with a cart and you bump them? I say I'm sorry. Am I really sorry? No, she shouldn't have walked right in front of me without expecting it, but I still say it.

That's a great strategy and goes along with PP's idea about modeling. Also, a lt of you are bringing up manners. That is a very good point. We live in a society and there are "rules." one of which is to apologize.

StrawberryAlarmClock · January 2012

MandJS:
I'm with you. I don't like forced apologies, but when we do time out or something like the situation you described happens, we explain to S that it hurts and request she say sorry. It appears that she's starting to understand because she will do something (by accident) and say sorry now. I think you need to do "forced" at this age, because otherwise, how do they learn?

True. We do many things out of habit or upbringing for years before one day we stop and realize why our parents and teachers taught us to do it. And how cute that DD says sorry!!

StrawberryAlarmClock · January 2012

KelliLynee:
We try to do something I read on this board a while back. Instead of prompting DD to say she is sorry, we prompt her to ask the other person of they are okay. I think it's more beneficial because it is posed as a question, and she is waiting for the answer. In your example, she would be waiting to hear from DH if he was okay after being poked in the eye, and I think in many cases prompting her to ask the question peaks her interest into finding out if the other person actually is okay.

I like this strategy!!

daenikoffre · January 2012

I love what lots of PPs, said. Especially the story of Char at the Chik Fil A playground.

As a DCP what I do is when someone is hurt I go to that person and help make them feel better by verbalizing what just happened. "Oh, sweetie. That looks like it might have hurt. I saw X bump in to you and you fell off the step. X is a nice friend and didn't want to hurt you." all within earshot of X. This shows X that we are not putting any fault on him, yet stating the facts as they happened and acknowledging that accidents happen.

Also, as a preventative measure we often talk about how important our friends are to us and how when we see a friend who is sad we can try and make them feel better because we love our friends and we all take care of each other, etc.

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