new definition of rape...

aliska · January 2012

The US has now broadened its definition of rape to, "The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."

https://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/06/10007698-us-broadens-definition-of-rape-includes-male-victims

Do you think that this will help to prosecute medical staff guilty of birth rape?

RandiDeeAnn · January 2012

I wouldn't really consider an episiotomy or the use of forceps rape, BUT if it gives me more leverage against a doctor I already am worrying about, I might pull out this card. The reason I don't believe these actions to be rape is because I usually consider rape to actually have some sexuality attached it it, though I guess that sometimes power over the victim may be the motive. In that case, maybe.

CTri17 · January 2012

i think birth rape is something you have be VERY careful about using personally.

I don't want anyone to have something terrible done for them but I also think it is bad to throw rape around

LaurelBee · January 2012

At the risk of sounding like a total newb- what is birth rape? Never heard of it before...

star173 · January 2012

CTri17:

i think birth rape is something you have be VERY careful about using personally.

I don't want anyone to have something terrible done for them but I also think it is bad to throw rape around

I really don't think women who experience such horrible birth trauma that it affects them to the point where they have legit PTSD are "throwing rape around". And just because it isn't in a dark alley, does not mean it isn't rape...sure, sometimes it may not be, just like in regular rape, but please don't discount the probability of women who truly experience "birth rape" because of the wording. Here's an article that may open your eyes a bit to what can happen in a delivery room:

https://www.hencigoer.com/downloads/cruelty_maternity_wards.pdf

(not trying to be snarky...I just..people used to say the same things you are saying when spousal rape was not a crime and they pushed to make it part of the "rape" definition)

CTri17 · January 2012

star173:
CTri17:

i think birth rape is something you have be VERY careful about using personally.

I don't want anyone to have something terrible done for them but I also think it is bad to throw rape around

I really don't think women who experience such horrible birth trauma that it affects them to the point where they have legit PTSD are "throwing rape around". And just because it isn't in a dark alley, does not mean it isn't rape...sure, sometimes it may not be, just like in regular rape, but please don't discount the probability of women who truly experience "birth rape" because of the wording. Here's an article that may open your eyes a bit to what can happen in a delivery room:

https://www.hencigoer.com/downloads/cruelty_maternity_wards.pdf

(not trying to be snarky...I just..people used to say the same things you are saying when spousal rape was not a crime and they pushed to make it part of the "rape" definition)

I just said we should be careful, which I think we should.

not that people don't experience it, just that we should be careful

pinksweetpea2 · January 2012

RandiDeeAnn:
The reason I don't believe these actions to be rape is because I usually consider rape to actually have some sexuality attached it it, though I guess that sometimes power over the victim may be the motive. In that case, maybe.

Rape is almost exclusively about power.

noryang · January 2012

I really believe that the two should both be considered serious crimes but not categorized together. They are separate crimes, perpetrated with different motives and occur under very different circumstances. Unfortunately, once you start grouping together offenses it "muddies the water", leaves some people confused and can take away the legitamacy of individual crimes. Should it? Of course not. But does it? Sadly.

aliska · January 2012

noryang:
I really believe that the two should both be considered serious crimes but not categorized together. They are separate crimes, perpetrated with different motives and occur under very different circumstances. Unfortunately, once you start grouping together offenses it "muddies the water", leaves some people confused and can take away the legitamacy of individual crimes. Should it? Of course not. But does it? Sadly.

By the legal definition in the article, any penetration by a body part or object without consent is rape. I don't see how it being a medical object or the body part of a doctor/nurse/midwife matters.

Kristine Schilling · January 2012

LaurelBee:
At the risk of sounding like a total newb- what is birth rape? Never heard of it before...

Cant really give you a definition, however I can give a basic example.

DRs or nurses being un-nessisarily rough during an internal check because you are not "co-operating" with them, could be considered a form of birth rape.

There are some horror stories out there about DR's and nurses being rough, physically abusive, and/or verbally abusive towards women in labor. Abusing their position as an "expert" or their power to do lasting mental or physical harm. While not usually intentional, the results are the same. Women who are completly traumatized during their birth experience.

Birth rape, not as common now, was a common problem in the 50's and earlier from what I understand of it. It does still happen though.

Another thing to consider.. We hear about OB/Gyns getting sued or arrested for sexual abuse in their practice... Imagine the women they harmed during L&D for their perverse power pleasure... theres your "birth rape" scenario.

blush64 · January 2012

I disagree with the use of rape for this.

blush64 · January 2012

noryang:
I really believe that the two should both be considered serious crimes but not categorized together. They are separate crimes, perpetrated with different motives and occur under very different circumstances. Unfortunately, once you start grouping together offenses it "muddies the water", leaves some people confused and can take away the legitamacy of individual crimes. Should it? Of course not. But does it? Sadly.

I agree with this.

It is a crime but I don't agree with the term they are using.

EDIT I understand how serious this issue is but I think rape is serious enough that we don't need to add this to it.

Birth rape should have it's own term.

I get why people say they go together but I just can't agree. Yes, a long time ago people questioned how a woman could be raped by her husband, date etc..But I don't see that as being the same thing.

aliska · January 2012

blush64:
noryang:
I really believe that the two should both be considered serious crimes but not categorized together. They are separate crimes, perpetrated with different motives and occur under very different circumstances. Unfortunately, once you start grouping together offenses it "muddies the water", leaves some people confused and can take away the legitamacy of individual crimes. Should it? Of course not. But does it? Sadly.

I agree with this.

It is a crime but I don't agree with the term they are using.

EDIT I understand how serious this issue is but I think rape is serious enough that we don't need to add this to it.

Birth rape should have it's own term.

I get why people say they go together but I just can't agree. Yes, a long time ago people questioned how a woman could be raped by her husband, date etc..But I don't see that as being the same thing.

The definition puts forcible entry of a pipe in a vagina/anus in a back alley as rape. Are you saying that isn't rape? If it is rape, why does the location and object matter? Back alley vs hospital room...pipe vs hand/forceps/scissors

redheadinlove · January 2012

aliska:
blush64:
noryang:
I really believe that the two should both be considered serious crimes but not categorized together. They are separate crimes, perpetrated with different motives and occur under very different circumstances. Unfortunately, once you start grouping together offenses it "muddies the water", leaves some people confused and can take away the legitamacy of individual crimes. Should it? Of course not. But does it? Sadly.

I agree with this.

It is a crime but I don't agree with the term they are using.

EDIT I understand how serious this issue is but I think rape is serious enough that we don't need to add this to it.

Birth rape should have it's own term.

I get why people say they go together but I just can't agree. Yes, a long time ago people questioned how a woman could be raped by her husband, date etc..But I don't see that as being the same thing.
The definition puts forcible entry of a pipe in a vagina/anus in a back alley as rape. Are you saying that isn't rape? If it is rape, why does the location and object matter? Back alley vs hospital room...pipe vs hand/forceps/scissors

I agree with the new definition of rape. I don't believe it should be applied to birth rape and it should be charged as a different crime. At least that's where I stand right now, not very informed on the issue.

I'm somewhat confused as to what classifies as birth rape. Medical procedures that weren't consented to, or like 'internal checks' done for perverse reasons, not to check the woman? If the first is our case, then I believe that's more of a patients rights issue. If it's the second, then definitely on the rape side.

It's a sticky issue, for sure.

I do agree with the new definition of rape for the exact situation you pointed out, aliska. It takes away a 'technicality' that was easy to get around before.

pinksweetpea2 · January 2012

redheadinlove:
aliska:
blush64:
noryang:
I really believe that the two should both be considered serious crimes but not categorized together. They are separate crimes, perpetrated with different motives and occur under very different circumstances. Unfortunately, once you start grouping together offenses it "muddies the water", leaves some people confused and can take away the legitamacy of individual crimes. Should it? Of course not. But does it? Sadly.
I agree with this.
It is a crime but I don't agree with the term they are using.
EDIT I understand how serious this issue is but I think rape is serious enough that we don't need to add this to it.
Birth rape should have it's own term.
I get why people say they go together but I just can't agree. Yes, a long time ago people questioned how a woman could be raped by her husband, date etc..But I don't see that as being the same thing.
The definition puts forcible entry of a pipe in a vagina/anus in a back alley as rape. Are you saying that isn't rape? If it is rape, why does the location and object matter? Back alley vs hospital room...pipe vs hand/forceps/scissors
I'm somewhat confused as to what classifies as birth rape. Medical procedures that weren't consented to, or like 'internal checks' done for perverse reasons, not to check the woman? If the first is our case, then I believe that's more of a patients rights issue. If it's the second, then definitely on the rape side.

What does it matter? It is penetration without consent- the motive should never factor into the equation. If we went by your theory then husbands could justify raping their wives because they are married...and say that it is just a marital issue.

I think a lot of you should go read some actual birth rape stores before determining that it is not the same thing as other types of rape:

https://birthraped.wordpress.com/

If you can get through these stories and still think that birth rape is not rape, then you are a stronger person than I am.

iris427 · January 2012

pinksweetpea2:
redheadinlove:
aliska:
blush64:
noryang:
I really believe that the two should both be considered serious crimes but not categorized together. They are separate crimes, perpetrated with different motives and occur under very different circumstances. Unfortunately, once you start grouping together offenses it "muddies the water", leaves some people confused and can take away the legitamacy of individual crimes. Should it? Of course not. But does it? Sadly.
I agree with this.
It is a crime but I don't agree with the term they are using.
EDIT I understand how serious this issue is but I think rape is serious enough that we don't need to add this to it.
Birth rape should have it's own term.
I get why people say they go together but I just can't agree. Yes, a long time ago people questioned how a woman could be raped by her husband, date etc..But I don't see that as being the same thing.
The definition puts forcible entry of a pipe in a vagina/anus in a back alley as rape. Are you saying that isn't rape? If it is rape, why does the location and object matter? Back alley vs hospital room...pipe vs hand/forceps/scissors
I'm somewhat confused as to what classifies as birth rape. Medical procedures that weren't consented to, or like 'internal checks' done for perverse reasons, not to check the woman? If the first is our case, then I believe that's more of a patients rights issue. If it's the second, then definitely on the rape side.

What does it matter? It is penetration without consent- the motive should never factor into the equation. If we went by your theory then husbands could justify raping their wives because they are married...and say that it is just a marital issue.
I think a lot of you should go read some actual birth rape stores before determining that it is not the same thing as other types of rape:
https://birthraped.wordpress.com/
If you can get through these stories and still think that birth rape is not rape, then you are a stronger person than I am.

I agree with pinksweetpea. I don't think intent matters. If you have a medical exam or procedure done without consent, especially if you say no, it is a violation of your rights and your body. I think when we couch it in terms of "patient rights" it kind of legitimizes it in a way. Because if you were in any other situation and someone forced their hand up your vagina, it would be assault (that might not be the right legal term, I'm not a lawyer). But if it is done to a woman in a medical setting, it gets dismissed as just a patient issue. As in, complain to the hospital instead of file a police report. People think she is just dramatic or act like she doesn't care about her baby enough.

Also maybe I am just crazy but I think there is an element of " well that's what you get for getting pregnant" to these kinds of stories. Kind of like the idea that women deserve to suffer in childbirth because of Eve's original sin which ties into the idea of punishment for having sex.

Jessimurph · January 2012

pinksweetpea2:
RandiDeeAnn:
The reason I don't believe these actions to be rape is because I usually consider rape to actually have some sexuality attached it it, though I guess that sometimes power over the victim may be the motive. In that case, maybe.
Rape is almost exclusively about power.

This is why I think birth rape and rape are the same. Both rape, but in different situations.

MrsS2203 · January 2012

I'm very grateful they changed the wording. I'm on the fence whether to sue the delivering OB. I begged her to stop and that it hurt(in tears). The response I got was, " its labor and its going to hurt." It has affected my thoughts on wanting another child(before I wanted 6). I am in counseling for the experience. I'm thankful that it wasn't worse,but it still haunts me. I continually pray that it'll get better.

I don't want to take away from a sexual rape victim,but for someone to understand by point of view birth rape helps.

noryang · January 2012

aliska:
noryang:
I really believe that the two should both be considered serious crimes but not categorized together. They are separate crimes, perpetrated with different motives and occur under very different circumstances. Unfortunately, once you start grouping together offenses it "muddies the water", leaves some people confused and can take away the legitamacy of individual crimes. Should it? Of course not. But does it? Sadly.
By the legal definition in the article, any penetration by a body part or object without consent is rape. I don't see how it being a medical object or the body part of a doctor/nurse/midwife matters.

I wholeheartedly support the crimes being equal under the law. Penetration by a foreign object is considered sexual assault or sodomy in most states. No one should ever touch you against your will - medical professional or not. I truly believe that it wouldn't work for them to be grouped together because of others views of these crimes. I am thinking jurors, police, other medical professionals, etc. i am a rape survivor and have been through the system. It is based on my personal experiences that I have my opinion. But I want to stress that I absolutely believe that any assault (to include birth rape) is an equally traumatic experience and must be prosecuted.

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