Does your DC allow this? (long-sorry!)
1026pumpkin
member
Could you ladies let me know if you think I'm being crazycakes about this situation?
Our DC (which we LOVE) started having student nurses rotate through the classrooms about 2 weeks ago. We didn't receive any advance notice this was going to happen- I just came in for drop off one morning and there were a ton of people running around in scrubs (some even questioned ME to ask who I was and if I belonged there). In DS's infant room, there were several sitting on the floor with the babies pointing out various physical characteristics (2 of the babies in the room have Down's) and taking notes.
I spoke with the director the first day to ask what was going on and she told me that they have a contract with the local nursing school to allow them to rotate through to get "hands on" experience caring for children (feeding, diaper changes, etc.) since many of them have no experience with kids and need to care for them in the hospital. She said that it was in the contract that students may do internships (in the past it has always been a situation with 1 student teacher, not a flood of nurses in uniform) and that they would be there for a week and would NOT be doing anything medical on the children. The students are never left alone with the kids and have had medical/background checks.
A few days later, a sign was posted on the door saying they would be there until OCTOBER and that they were going to be listening to their hearts, taking vitals, etc.
DC is trying to say that having them there is a help to the teachers, an extra set of hands, etc. However, I have never seen one of these students do anything that looks helpful. They crowd the room during drop offs, they distract the teachers by asking questions, and it seems like they're treating the kids like lab specimens. It's to the point where I feel sick every time I leave DS in the room with these students. I almost want to look for another DC for him because of this.
Am I being irrational? Is it common to have students filter through DCs like this? Would you appreciate the extra set of hands? Apparently I'm the only parent that even asked about their presence, so I feel like I'm being overly sensitive, but I don't think I can stand this until October. I'd hate to leave over this, though, because I haven't had any other major problems, the teachers are all amazing, and we really love it there.
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Re: Does your DC allow this? (long-sorry!)
That would REALLY bother me. I'd say something to the directors about your concerns.
Did the DC inform you or ask your permission that students would be taking vitals?
For me, I'd probably look for a new dcp if this was going to happen routinely.
When I initially spoke with the director, she told me they would NOT be taking vitals; however, in the notice they posted on the door (after our conversation), it says they WILL be taking vitals. I know it's not invasive and won't hurt the kids, but my DS has been through a lot of medical stuff, and I really don't want him poked, prodded, or commented on at DC where I'm paying them a lot of money for him to have fun!
The director said that by signing the contract we were allowing permission for students to come into the center, but I feel this is a bit extreme. All of the previous "students" have been student teachers have integrated so well that I often just thought they were teachers from one of the other rooms that came in to help. I really feel like each parent should have had to sign a permission slip for this so we could have opted out.
There is ABSOLUTELY NO way I would let a bunch of nursing STUDENTS use my kid as a test dummy. I wouldn't want someone who has no experience dealing with infants in the room. I too think it is distracting, and I do not want my kids vitals talked about or tested or even thought of, when I am not in the room. We have to be advocates.
I have a hard enough time leaving DD with the early morning people who aren't her regular teachers, but they all are trained for infants.
this would really bother me.
The daycare is obviously making money off of this too. I would totally report them to the state authorities and move my kid. And, call you state/county rep. If that's legal and normal, its totally F*cked up.
I am in the majority and agree this is not right at all. I would not be comfortable having someone who I don't know practicing medical stuff on my child. Even if it is something simple like listening to her heart for "education" and experience. If they want experience working with pediatrics...the school they are paying to receive their education should be putting them in a local hospital on the children's floor.
I would report it.
Goodbye little angel(7/22/2011)....see you in heaven
Goodbye my second angel (9/18/2011)
I usually just lurk here, as I am not going back to work until October, but I just had to comment here...You are not being crazy at all. I find it so strange that none of the other parent have complained about this. I would be pissed if I found out that my child was used in this manner while I was paying good money for them to be engaged and taken care of by teachers (not student nurses). I would find a new daycare if you could...shows poor judgement on the part of the daycare- not putting the childrens best interests first. Student teachers once in a while is a whole different story than a group of nurses taking vitals.
ETA: I wonder if the parents of the children with down's syndrome know their child's physical characteristics are being pointed out and studied in this setting- that I would also not be ok with!
Umm....no, you are not crazycakes.
Tell the director AND infant teachers that your child will not be participating in this "program" and start looking for a new daycare.
The contract that we signed with DC does state that students may involved in the care of children under the direct supervision of DC staff. The director did get medical clearance (TB test, vaccinations, etc.), background checks, and fingerprints for all of the nursing students, so I think it is legal and ok per licensing. I just feel that this is a big difference than a one-off student teacher, which is what I assumed the contract was referring to. I'm surprised the nursing school even approached them- I also think they should be getting experience at hospitals, pedi offices under supervision of the physicians and parents....OR if it's the diapers/feeding they need experience with, they should put ads in the paper and compensate volunteers to bring their kids in for a diaper change and bottle.
I've let student nurses/med students observe DS's checkups plenty of times because they were respectful, supervised, and asked permission. I also think the student teachers are great because they're actually contributing to the normal curriculum of the classroom.
Your description of a 3 ring circus is spot-on :-(
I don't think the parents of the two children with Down's realize their kids are being pointed out in this way, because I've only seen them do it when their parents aren't present. The way they were talking about them made me feel ill....Here are these two beautiful, happy babies being scrutanized like something under a microscope. It would be one thing in a medical setting if it was incorporated into their care, but this seems like the wrong time and place, especially when their parents aren't present. My DS has a plagiocephaly helmet and it makes me wonder what they say about HIM as soon as I walk out the door. He's probably exhibit #3 :-(
I"m a nurse and I remember as a student doing a rotation through a daycare to observe and interact with the children to see normal childhood development, as so much of what we see in hospital is abnornal children these days as most children aren't admitted like they used to be...
however, before we got there the university did up a statement as to what our role was whle we were there and it was sent home to the parent's one week in advance. We did not do vitals on them, just observed them, played with them and created some games that were age appropriate.
I wouldn't blame the students, but blame the DC for not informing you of their presence and objectives of this prior to them coming in. I also would not let them do anything over and above the role of a daycare worker, i.e I would let them change a diaper, but not do vitals without your written consent.
The students really benefit from the exposure and they will be better nurses for it later on... and if one day they are caring for you or your family members, you want them to be good nurses.
No way would I allow this. If they are doing vitals and things there are also HIPPA laws that may need to be followed for privacy of each child/family. If any medical procedures/vitals are being done it needs to be under the direct supervision of a nurse/doctor! I'm sure no one in the DC is trained to tell these nursing students if something is being in error.
Easy on the harassing. I highly doubt it's that.
Am I the only one who doesn't think it's that big of a deal. They are nursing students. You are helping them learn. I also wonder if it's really as bad as you make it sound. How long are they really there? Is it really a circus or did it just seem a little crowded for your taste?
As for pointing out characteristics of the downs babies, they are learning what to recognize--not making fun of the kids.
As for taking vitals, it personally wouldn't bother me. I mean what are vitals anyway? Temp, eye dilation, reflexes, etc. Anyone can do those things. They aren't harassing them. I would be glad that I could help them learn and would feel pretty good that my kid were getting an extra once over.
If you really like the DC, I would not think this would be a reason to leave. Express your concerns to the director and simply ask they don't take vitals on your baby.
I'm not trying to be ugly or play devil's advocate, I just thought you needed to here another point of view.
I'm having a hard time believing that any legit nursing school sends their students to a DAYCARE for pediatric experience. That's what children's hospitals or pedi clinics are for. Is it an actual university/college, or a for-profit trade school/training program type school?
Either way I would not to okay with that. It doesn't matter to me that they aren't "doing" anything or that they "need experience." You don't get to practice on other peoples' kids without their permission.
This situation would make me really uncomfortable. It also doesn't make any sense. I get what the nurse that replied was saying about observing typical behavior and if thats all they were doing, I would be okay with it on a short term basis. However, thats not what they are doing. They are performing medical tasks. Yes, its just vitals, at least for now, but honestly you were told at first they wouldn't be doing vitals, so who knows what they are going to add later. But its still a medical task. I don't see how they are allowed to do that without your consent. You mention the contract says they can have students. I am pretty sure the contract doesn't say they can perform medical tasks on your child. I'm also pretty confident you are not the only one who has questioned this since you said the director fired back with "its in the contract" so quickly. She has had this discussion with another parent before, I'm willing to bet on it. And my daughter was born in a teaching hospital, so we had plenty of medical students in and out looking at her and me. Every single one of them explained what they wanted to do and asked for permission. Sorry to repeat myself, but I just don't see how they can perform a medical task without your presence and permission.
Aside from the discussion on whether they can technically/legally/whatever do what they are doing, that's not what I'm paying my daycare for. My child is there to play, be engaged, have fun, and interact with teachers and peers, NOT be a test subject.
I have been an RN for 10+years now. I can't see that this would have been of much benefit to me as a nursing student, especially after a day or two at best. Now in nursing school we went to a daycare for special needs children who were actually cared for by nurses all day (children had feeding tubes etc.). Even that was not more than a week. But we always had a nursing instructor on site for any problems or concerns.
As a mother I would not be ok with this for more than a day or two. DS2 had several surgeries as a baby/toddler and was terrified of anything medical for a good while. Even when I came home from work with my stethescope on he would scream when he saw it. So having vitals etc done at daycare would not have been good. Daycare should be a "safe place."
As far as the students discussing the kids with Down's they obviously did it in front of other parents. Huge mistake, that could cost them a job one day as a hippa violation. My company will fire an experienced good nurse for a hippa violation in a second. (It can cost the company up to $10k in fines).
^^ this ^^ but idk maybe I'm crazy. But students have to learn somewhere. Being at a day care with all different types of children seems like a good place to get familliar with kids. to an EXTENT. What I dont understand is why they arent learning from actual doctors...is a doctor/peditrician present and over seeing what the nurses are doing?? Ask them why they cant sit in on pediatric appointments to get their experience with kids....
A local University with a child development program often does studies at my DD's center.Parents are given study information up front, and the studies are always opt-in. I always allow DD to participate, but I would be furious if we ever ran into a situation like you describe.
A Little Bird and a Monkey Butt
This was my first thought when I read this. There are all sorts of state and federal privacy and confidentiality laws (including those governing the research of human subjects) that could be implicated by the things these students are doing. At the very least, you should have been given the opportunity to sign an informed consent of some kind regarding the taking of your child's vitals - a blanket signing of your DC contract does NOT generally suffice as an informed consent. I think that's the part that bothers me most about this - the fact that these students now have access to aspects of your child's medical information without you ever having been consulted or asked. If your DC director cannot see that this is a problem, it may be time for a new DC.
I have 2 different perspectives on this...
1) I am a nurse and I had a day where we went to a DC to OBSERVE. We did not take vitals or listen to their hearts, or take notes in the class. We did help put the kids down for naps and prepare snacks and clean up toys. We weren't hands on and did not do diaper changes and things like that. Those were rules set by our nursing program and not by the daycare. We also were only there for 1 day...and only 2 at a time. The nursing program didn't want to crowd the DC or have too many students at a time to be a nuisance. I wouldn't be bothered by them being there and helping a little, but it seems like they are getting a bit too involved. That's what their hospital pediatric rotation is for...
2) As a parent, we know our DC has a contract with ECE students. That there may be 1-2 students at DC at a time per class. I'm fine with that. They do what the teachers do. That's going to be their job so I'm ok with it. I'd be upset about the situation as well...I'd talk to the director.
The more I think about your situation, the more it bothers me. Please contact the nursing school coordinator and someone higher up than your DC director, if there is one. I can't imagine that a nursing school coordinator would not deem it appropriate to gain informed consent / assent from parents, which then leads me to think that this is blatant disregard for ethical teaching and research standards. If I tried to do something like this and got caught, I would lose my university job and potentially irrevocably damage my hope of conducting research or teaching in the future. Furthermore, I see it as taking advantage of the children, of a situation, and cutting corners.
Regardless, this needs to be brought to the attention of someone who has the authority to do something. Informed consent is a two way street, it protects all parties involved. Right now the nursing school can be held accountable for any emotional or physical harm your child endures. They need to know, you know that. Stand tall for your child and your convictions.
Luker here.
I am a nurse and go back to work next week. When I was in school we spent a few hours in a DC observing the kids. We were in very small groups (2-3 people) and were only allowed to observe and interact with the kids as they participated in their normal activities. We did not take vitals or do any kind of testing. And this was only a very small part of our overall pedi education.
So it would not bother me to have nursing students observing my LO in DC. However it sound like what is going on in your DC is way above and beyond.
Hi Ladies- I really appreciate all of the feedback and different perspectives you have shared. To answer some of the common questions:
* The contract says "students"- during the tour I was told that they have teaching/special ed students rotate through, but no mention of nursing students. If I had seen this going on during my tour, I would have left and not considered the center.
* The nurses have an instructor present at the center to "supervise", but obviously she can't be in each classroom all the time.
I'm going to post a follow-up post, but wanted to share that I spoke with the assistant director yesterday afternoon. I was given the official spiel on how helpful it is to the nursing students, how the nursing students have been vetted and are supervised, etc.She told me that the nursing students are there everyday except Wednesday from 7:30-12:30, and that this will continue through October. I told her that I just didn't feel comfortable and don't want my son to participate. She just kept shaking her head no and saying this was how it is and that there's nothing I can do (i.e. opt out of participating). NOW I'm really irritated. I feel like they are doing a tremendous favor to the nursing students and are prioritizing them and their wants/needs over a child's parents' wishes. Not only am I the parent and the one who should be making decisions about who interacts with my child, but I'm a paying customer. DH and I are going doing some major decision making over the weekend about this. Ugh! I just feel sick because I love every other aspect of this place so much. EVERY single teacher, staff member, student teacher I have ever interacted with has been awesome and we've been so happy to have DS there up until now.
I agree with this. I think what would bother me most is the chaos you described. I can see having a couple extra students in each room, but they shouldn't be detracting from the care being provided.
Charlotte Ella 07.16.10
Emmeline Grace 03.27.13
I cannot believe you experienced the underlined portion. Was she saying that it is not possible for you to opt your son out of having his vitals taken????? That is a violation of MANY federal and state privacy laws, and I'd be bringing this to the attention of the state day care licensing agency, as well as the nursing school, immediately. (Full disclosure - I am a healthcare law attorney, and without giving an actual legal opinion here, I simply will say that your DC director is walking on some very, very thin ice).
If these nursing students were only observing, or had limited involvement for the sake of hands-on experience, that would be one thing. But in reality, they are doing "research" that should be monitored by an IRB, or performing "treatment" that is governed by a slew of state and federal laws, and all of which require you to sign a consent that specifically solicits your authorization for them to interact in that way with your son. Just think about all of the forms you had to fill out when you chose a pediatrician for your son - how this DC director thinks she can just let a bunch of strangers in to take kids' vitals is beyond me. Thin ice, I tell you; very thin ice.
A Little Bird and a Monkey Butt
I can't stop thinking about this post and the more I think about it the more mad I get for you and LO. After your update about the director telling you that you couldn't opt out of your child receiving medical treatment, I am furious. Regardless of whether they are allowed to do this, there is obviously a complete lack of respect for the parents wishes and I think you need to look at other daycare options immediately. I know you have been happy so far, but what other wishes have they/will they ignore as your son gets older.
On the legal side, I have no expertise whatsoever, but I can not imagine they are not breaking some kind of regulation/rule, if not a law. If I were you, I would be contacting numerous people, including whoever is above the director (if its a chain, I would be contacting the head of the chain), the state daycare licensing board, the nursing coordinator and school, and possibly someone with some legal expertise.
Good luck, and I am sorry you are dealing with this.