HTT: Homosexuality and church

CamilleJon · August 2011

honkytonk_kid:
CamilleJon:
Anytime you ask a religious, anti-gay person why they are the way they are, and why they believe in such an absurdity, their only answer will be "because the bible says so" or something equally ridiculous.
Christians believe the Bible is the infallible word of God, why would another reason be necessary?
And this thought of Jesus being just some cool dude who doesn't care what you do is absurd to me. Good parents are not the ones who are their kids' BFF, don't care what they do, who they sleep with, when they get home etc. Good parents are lovingly strict. Of course Jesus cares what you do. It doesn't mean He loves you any less, but why would he not care if you do things that are against His will, and hurt yourself or others?

My point exactly. So many things get lost in translation and some bigot somewhere decided to throw that into the bible and now it's folowers believe it to be the infallible word of their creator.

honkytonk_kid · August 2011

CamilleJon:
honkytonk_kid:
CamilleJon:
Anytime you ask a religious, anti-gay person why they are the way they are, and why they believe in such an absurdity, their only answer will be "because the bible says so" or something equally ridiculous.
Christians believe the Bible is the infallible word of God, why would another reason be necessary?
And this thought of Jesus being just some cool dude who doesn't care what you do is absurd to me. Good parents are not the ones who are their kids' BFF, don't care what they do, who they sleep with, when they get home etc. Good parents are lovingly strict. Of course Jesus cares what you do. It doesn't mean He loves you any less, but why would he not care if you do things that are against His will, and hurt yourself or others?
My point exactly. So many things get lost in translation and some bigot somewhere decided to throw that into the bible and now it's folowers believe it to be the infallible word of their creator.

Well... if that's how you believe the Bible came into existence we'll just have to agree to disagree.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:
RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:
thatgirl85:
chickaboo1974:

I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.

Get out of my head! That goes through my mind every time I read about someone trying to ban abortions or gay marriage.

I bet you're ok with murder being illegal. If abortion is killing a baby - and I think it is - then it should be illegal just like killing a baby out of the womb is illegal. We need to stand up for the people in this world who can't speak up for themselves.

Simply "not having an abortion" won't help babies / women hurt by abortion.

I just don't think this logic works here...

Your statement above forces me to ask about your stance when someone becomes pregnant from a violent act- ie. rape, incest, etc. Or took precautionary methods to not get pregnant due to medical reasons, but then ended up pregnant anyway.

For the record, I am pro-choice but ever since having H, the thought of it makes me ill. However, I would never take away a women's right to choose that option if it's what she felt was right for her and her family.

A baby does not deserve the death penalty for the crimes committed by the father.

Rape is something so horrible that I cannot even imagine it, but time and time again, women have said that their abortion of the baby conceived in rape hurt worse than the actual rape and just created more problems, more nightmares.

Women who allow their baby to live do not regret it, but most women who abort do.

The person in the womb is alive and deserve rights / to be protected. Why should he / she be punished for what the pervert did?

I understand that carrying a baby that the woman did not want for 9 months isn't fair to her either, but like I said, the women who do have these children are glad they did. I'm going to recommend another book: Conceived in Rape.

This is something that I have to take at face value because I don't know the source of your information. I can absolutely see how people will regret choosing an abortion, but in a situation like rape, incest, and medical reasons for not having a baby, I think you are simply choosing between two evils. One option is not better then the other, it's just the one that (at the time- maybe not later down the road) you feel is the better way to go on living as much of normal life as possible.

Can you imagine being the victim of a violent crime only to have a daily reminder of that violent act growing inside your body? If a woman chooses to keep a child that was conceived that way, I can't imagine that she would ever be able to look at that child ever, not once in his or her precious life, without seeing that violent act. What kind of life is that for the child? Is that fair?

If you were to make abortion illegal, you are condeming some children to a life of being unwanted, neglected, possibly abused. And you are handing the death penalty to a woman whose body physically can not handle having a child.

I can't imagine being the victim of a violent crime and I get what you're saying - many people think women in that situation will feel that way. I've heard the "would be too hard to look at the child and be reminded of the rape" argument many times, but the women who actually are in that situation do not feel that way about their children; they actually love them despite who their father is.

Unfortunately, many children of people who wanted their babies are abused. It's completely awful and in excusable but we can't say that baby shouldn't be protected because he / she might be abused or neglected. Even if they are, at least they have their life, and they will have the opportunity to get out of that horrible situation. Imagine all the good that person could do for society! Even if they don't though, they still deserve the right to life.

As far as women who aren't able to handle a baby, doctors will do what they have to to save the lives of everyone possible.

99% of abortions are done by people who had consensual sex - the law should not be based on exceptions.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

Nicole0012:
Honestly, sometimes I picture God up in heaven, throwing his hands up in frustration as he looks down here at us trying to interpret the Bible, saying, "That's NOT what I meant!!!"

Ah and that's one reason I love the Catholic Church! God promised that the Holy Spirit would always guide the Church and the Popes. I think the Bible is often misinterpreted. We have the Magisterium. )

Not trying to sound arrogant at all just one reason I love my faith. I wouldn't go to church if I didn't believe it was the truth.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:
RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:
RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:

mamaholmes2010:
My Uncle has been with his life partner for 35+ years. He was my confirmation sponsor; so I think that homosexuals should have all the same rights in faith and in life as heterosexual couples. I think it will be a VERY long time before homosexuals will be allowed to be married in the catholic faith, but I think that many churches need to revise their strict adhearance to outdated ways of thinking in order to keep church membership up. I can count on one hand the number of couples at my parish that are in my age range.

The Catholic Church will never allow gay marriage because it is harmful to the soul. Also, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit... God's law doesn't change with time. The teachings of the Catholic Church have stayed true to God for over 2000 years and will not fundamentally change.

My best friend is a lesbian and I love her to death; I also have friends who have sex before they're married. Everyone sins myself included... I know that having friends / family who do things that they shouldn't doesn't make the sins they commit ok.

Good news is God is ALWAYS willing to forgive no matter what a person does! He loves everyone!

Can you elaborate on the bolded above please. Honestly, I'm not looking to start a fight, I truly want to understand what's behind that view point.

So far I think we're doing a good job staying civil here... I hope I am too... I'm trying to be as charitable and loving as I can in my responses. This is a hard topic to not get heated about.

Of course I will try to elaborate, though admittedly, I'm not very good at it and would encourage you to go to the websites I linked to or other Catholic sites so the Church can do a better job defending herself.

The homosexual act is intrinsically disordered and it is a sin. As I said before, just like premarital sex is a sin. Mortal sins cause one to separate themselves from the love of God (though God still loves all sinners!). There are 3 conditions for something to be a mortal sin: 1. It must be a grave (serious) matter (gay marriage is) 2.) one must participate in the sin with full consent (OBVIOUSLY being raped is NOT a sin!) and 3.) One must be committing the sin knowing what they are doing is wrong. A person cannot get into Heaven with mortal sins on their soul. Of course ANY sin can be forgiven - Catholics believe (because Jesus taught us this) that one must go to confession to get their soul wiped clean.

All I want is for everyone to go to heaven which is why I say I don't want any harm to come to anyone's soul. The Church will not all of a sudden approve of something that is and has always been a sin. The Church exists as a hospital for sinners, not a house for saints. Jesus wants everyone with Him in heaven, but we have to accept His teachings and choose Heaven for ourselves.

Does that at least make sense even if you don't agree with it? As I said, I'm not very good at articulating my view on this.... I wish I could explain better.

Thank you for elaborating, and you comment makes sense even though I do not agree with it. (Hard to tell tone over the interwebz- so I'll just say here that I'm not being hostile)

My main problem is this, from what you said. "One must be committing the sin know that they are wrong." I contend that two people that love each other, being intimate with each other, regardless of gender, would be the most natural and right thing anyone could do in their relationship. I don't think it's wrong when I am intimate with my husband, and I doubt that my brother feels that he's doing something wrong when he is intimate with his boyfriend. It's one of those "in the eye of the beholder" situations.

Again, not attacking and not looking for you to agree. Just putting it out there that I don't know why the church feels they have the authority to label something as wrong.

I try really hard sometimes to picture how I would feel if someone told me that it was wrong for me to like men. That it was wrong and that I should be with women instead. I couldn't force myself to be gay anymore then a gay person could force themself to be straight. So why should gay people be punished for something that they have no control over?

Hi again, thank YOU for not attacking me and being open to listen even though you don't agree. I'm enjoying this discussion with you because you are being so civil and kind. I am happy to back this up as best as I can because it is my opinion. Thank you again for not being insulting and mean!

I see what you're saying about feeling what they are doing is right. This condition is one reason why we cannot judge people or condemn anyone to hell. We do not know what they know, KWIM? However, I do believe that everyone should be searching for the truth. Jesus gave us the Church to guide us and He promised that God will always guide the Church and help lead us to Him (<--God Himself gives the Church the authority). The Church illustrates, very well - much better than I am doing right now, why the homosexual act is wrong / a sin. We can't just put our fingers in our ears so we don't hear the truth. Questioning the Church is fine and encouraged! But I don't think many people give the Church the chance to explain. Another great book: Theology of the Body for Beginners (the actually encyclical by Pope John Paul II is kind of complex)

Gay people are not punished for being gay, but for the sexual act. We all have to avoid different temptations, and it is hard. Not going to say it isn't, but ultimately, Heaven is worth it.

I have to leave to pick up the babes. I wanted to tell you that so you didn't think I was picking up and leaving our spirited discussion for any other reason than that.

I appreciate your well thought out, well constructed view points. Thank you for being civil with me about how you feel and I hope you weren't offended by anything that I said.

I hope that we can agree to disagree nicely and go on Bumping in harmony. Have a good one!

Hey I think if we can be so polite on these two very touchy subjects, our chances or being civil for other discussions are pretty great!!

I was not offended by anything you said. I very much appreciate your kindness and questions.

Thanks again and talk to you later!

Mrs. K in TX · August 2011

I haven't chimed in for a while b/c i've voiced my opinion. I would like to say that I'm glad this post remained civil while both sides discussed their views. That's how I hoped it would end up, but after I posted, I feared it might turn ugly. I'm glad it didn't.

1ht

cupcakes710 · August 2011

nursedevivo:
RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:
RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:
thatgirl85:
chickaboo1974:

I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.

Get out of my head! That goes through my mind every time I read about someone trying to ban abortions or gay marriage.

I bet you're ok with murder being illegal. If abortion is killing a baby - and I think it is - then it should be illegal just like killing a baby out of the womb is illegal. We need to stand up for the people in this world who can't speak up for themselves.

Simply "not having an abortion" won't help babies / women hurt by abortion.

I just don't think this logic works here...

Your statement above forces me to ask about your stance when someone becomes pregnant from a violent act- ie. rape, incest, etc. Or took precautionary methods to not get pregnant due to medical reasons, but then ended up pregnant anyway.

For the record, I am pro-choice but ever since having H, the thought of it makes me ill. However, I would never take away a women's right to choose that option if it's what she felt was right for her and her family.

A baby does not deserve the death penalty for the crimes committed by the father.

Rape is something so horrible that I cannot even imagine it, but time and time again, women have said that their abortion of the baby conceived in rape hurt worse than the actual rape and just created more problems, more nightmares.

Women who allow their baby to live do not regret it, but most women who abort do.

The person in the womb is alive and deserve rights / to be protected. Why should he / she be punished for what the pervert did?

I understand that carrying a baby that the woman did not want for 9 months isn't fair to her either, but like I said, the women who do have these children are glad they did. I'm going to recommend another book: Conceived in Rape.

This is something that I have to take at face value because I don't know the source of your information. I can absolutely see how people will regret choosing an abortion, but in a situation like rape, incest, and medical reasons for not having a baby, I think you are simply choosing between two evils. One option is not better then the other, it's just the one that (at the time- maybe not later down the road) you feel is the better way to go on living as much of normal life as possible.

Can you imagine being the victim of a violent crime only to have a daily reminder of that violent act growing inside your body? If a woman chooses to keep a child that was conceived that way, I can't imagine that she would ever be able to look at that child ever, not once in his or her precious life, without seeing that violent act. What kind of life is that for the child? Is that fair?

If you were to make abortion illegal, you are condeming some children to a life of being unwanted, neglected, possibly abused. And you are handing the death penalty to a woman whose body physically can not handle having a child.

Or that child could be raised in a loving home, and live a wonderful life like I did. My birth mother did not want me, she gave birth to me, took me to a safe place and dropped me off. I don't know my birth date, I don't know any details of my birth mother. But she chose life for me. She could have easily had an abortion, because she OBVIOUSLY didn't want me. But she didn't.

And here you are with your little boy! This is very similar to my dad's story - he had the most loving parents who adopted him! His mom was single and 17... she easily could have had an abortion and then none of us would be here. Thank God for mothers who choose life even when it's hard!

cupcakes710 · August 2011

Mrs. K in TX:
I haven't chimed in for a while b/c i've voiced my opinion. I would like to say that I'm glad this post remained civil while both sides discussed their views. That's how I hoped it would end up, but after I posted, I feared it might turn ugly. I'm glad it didn't.

1ht

Me too! Phew! Though... there's still plenty of time for ugliness to happen. Like I said, though, the Dec Mommas have done better than most at having civil discussions. I *hope* this thread remains civil! (How many times have I said this now haha)

kat81again2 · August 2011

As for the gay marriage and legal aspect, I get what you're saying... I wrote my opinion in the post above about the difference between marriage and civil union.
Abortion is completely different. You can't say "don't believe in abortion rights - then don't have one." ... Pro Lifers believe abortion is murder. We think it should be illegal just like murder is illegal. That's like saying "don't believe in murder, don't kill anyone." or "Don't believe in rape, don't rape anyone." KWIM?

Yes, I am pro-choice but I TOTALLY get what you are saying here. It's not the same as gay rights and you can't really use the "don't get one" argument.

CamilleJon · August 2011

Cupcake: I wanted to do away with the loooong quotes so you're in bold

Man, I thought we were doing a good job staying civil and tolerant here... I am doing my best to explain the Church's position.

Aren't we?

Never once did I just say "because the Church says so" or "because the Bible says so" and I really don't think this belief is absurd.

No, but you said "Homosexuality is harmful to the soul" which falls into the 'equally ridiculous' category, IMO.

Many people share it, though most probably not as willing to say so publicly for fear of being attacked.

Not true, I hear it often, especially in the small town I currently live in. Nobody is attacked for their beliefs, unless they feel attacked when someone disagrees with their beliefs. But if it is the only reasoning they can offer, I will always argue it.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

CamilleJon:
Cupcake: I wanted to do away with the loooong quotes so you're in bold
Man, I thought we were doing a good job staying civil and tolerant here... I am doing my best to explain the Church's position.
Aren't we?
Never once did I just say "because the Church says so" or "because the Bible says so" and I really don't think this belief is absurd.
No, but you said "Homosexuality is harmful to the soul" which falls into the 'equally ridiculous' category, IMO.
Many people share it, though most probably not as willing to say so publicly for fear of being attacked.
Not true, I hear it often, especially in the small town I currently live in. Nobody is attacked for their beliefs, unless they feel attacked when someone disagrees with their beliefs. But if it is the only reasoning they can offer, I will always argue it.

I don't know... calling my opinion absurd and ridiculous didn't seem very civil to me.

I did say it was harmful to the soul but I backed that up in another post explaining exactly why it is harmful. My reasons are religious but that doesn't make them wrong or ridiculous. If you disagree, that's fine, but the way you said it came off as hostile.

I'm glad there are many people in your town who aren't afraid to stand up for what they believe in.

kat81again2 · August 2011

cupcakes710:

A baby does not deserve the death penalty for the crimes committed by the father.
Rape is something so horrible that I cannot even imagine it, but time and time again, women have said that their abortion of the baby conceived in rape hurt worse than the actual rape and just created more problems, more nightmares.
Women who allow their baby to live do not regret it, but most women who abort do.
The person in the womb is alive and deserve rights / to be protected. Why should he / she be punished for what the pervert did?
I understand that carrying a baby that the woman did not want for 9 months isn't fair to her either, but like I said, the women who do have these children are glad they did. I'm going to recommend another book: Conceived in Rape.

I completely understand all of the logic behind what you're saying, but I'm wondering if you have citations for your statistics? i.e. was there a scientifically conducted study that indicated that MORE women regretted their abortions than did not (I know that some women do regret them, though)? I think there are just as many anecdotes out there of it working out for people who got them; these are just not talked about. A friend of mine who has no desire to ever have children had protected sex last year and got pregnant in spite of it. She got an abortion. Then she got her tubes tied so it wouldn't happen again. She didn't look back or feel guilty or anything because she isn't morally against abortion.

Personally I just think that there should be LOTS of education about sex, pregnancy and STD prevention, etc. And lots of education about abortions, as well as the ability for women to choose to have them safely. I do think that enacting prevention measures like this would end up reducing overall abortions.

I'll agree with you that pretty much no mother will say, "I regret I didn't abort my kid," because we all know as moms that you fall in love pretty quickly with your little bug. On the other hand, most studies indicate that childless adults are happier than people with children (yes, including all of us who WANTED them!) So that's just something to consider...I am personally in favor of giving women the choice to live the life (incl those 9 months) the way they want to, especially if the pregnancy wasn't their fault.

All of this being said I can't really argue with "abortion is murder because conception starts with life." It is opinion. Science can tell you that for the first trimester of pregnancy (when something like 95%+ of abortions occur) your child is more primitive than the fish you had for dinner and not too different from the bug you stepped on but if you believe in souls, etc then I can't argue with that!

cupcakes710 · August 2011

kat81again2:
cupcakes710:

A baby does not deserve the death penalty for the crimes committed by the father.
Rape is something so horrible that I cannot even imagine it, but time and time again, women have said that their abortion of the baby conceived in rape hurt worse than the actual rape and just created more problems, more nightmares.
Women who allow their baby to live do not regret it, but most women who abort do.
The person in the womb is alive and deserve rights / to be protected. Why should he / she be punished for what the pervert did?
I understand that carrying a baby that the woman did not want for 9 months isn't fair to her either, but like I said, the women who do have these children are glad they did. I'm going to recommend another book: Conceived in Rape.
I completely understand all of the logic behind what you're saying, but I'm wondering if you have citations for your statistics? i.e. was there a scientifically conducted study that indicated that MORE women regretted their abortions than did not (I know that some women do regret them, though)? I think there are just as many anecdotes out there of it working out for people who got them; these are just not talked about. A friend of mine who has no desire to ever have children had protected sex last year and got pregnant in spite of it. She got an abortion. Then she got her tubes tied so it wouldn't happen again. She didn't look back or feel guilty or anything because she isn't morally against abortion.
Personally I just think that there should be LOTS of education about sex, pregnancy and STD prevention, etc. And lots of education about abortions, as well as the ability for women to choose to have them safely. I do think that enacting prevention measures like this would end up reducing overall abortions.
I'll agree with you that pretty much no mother will say, "I regret I didn't abort my kid," because we all know as moms that you fall in love pretty quickly with your little bug. On the other hand, most studies indicate that childless adults are happier than people with children (yes, including all of us who WANTED them!) So that's just something to consider...I am personally in favor of giving women the choice to live the life (incl those 9 months) the way they want to, especially if the pregnancy wasn't their fault.
All of this being said I can't really argue with "abortion is murder because conception starts with life." It is opinion. Science can tell you that for the first trimester of pregnancy (when something like 95%+ of abortions occur) your child is more primitive than the fish you had for dinner and not too different from the bug you stepped on but if you believe in souls, etc then I can't argue with that!

Yes there have been studies! I've done extensive research on this and everything I say can be backed up with statistics. Some books and websites are:

Pro Life Answers to Pro Choice Arguments by Randy Alcorn

Conceived in Rape

www.abort73.com

Forbidden Grief

In the book, Forbidden Grief, it talks about the different ways women deal with the grief and the guilt of having abortions. Your friend hasn't told you of her grief and she might not feel it yet. Some women feel the emotional effects 10 years after. We all have a conscience. Just because she doesn't think what she did was wrong doesn't mean it doesn't hurt deep down.

Most women end up with many more emotional problems after abortions even though they thought in having the abortion, they were opting for the quick fix to the original "problem". Forbidden Grief is a GREAT book to read - it is completely based in fact and interviews with victims of abortion.

Science will tell you that Life begins at conception. Cells start dividing, all the DNA is there immediately and it is different than both the mother's and father's DHA, the embryo followed by fetus starts growing and changing right away <-- that's life. The heart begins to beat at 18 days and brain waves can be detected at 40 days. Abortions occur after these milestones. To take that life, no matter how small it is, is murder.

CamilleJon · August 2011

cupcakes710:
CamilleJon:
Cupcake: I wanted to do away with the loooong quotes so you're in bold
Man, I thought we were doing a good job staying civil and tolerant here... I am doing my best to explain the Church's position.
Aren't we?
Never once did I just say "because the Church says so" or "because the Bible says so" and I really don't think this belief is absurd.
No, but you said "Homosexuality is harmful to the soul" which falls into the 'equally ridiculous' category, IMO.
Many people share it, though most probably not as willing to say so publicly for fear of being attacked.
Not true, I hear it often, especially in the small town I currently live in. Nobody is attacked for their beliefs, unless they feel attacked when someone disagrees with their beliefs. But if it is the only reasoning they can offer, I will always argue it.

I don't know... calling my opinion absurd and ridiculous didn't seem very civil to me.
I did say it was harmful to the soul but I backed that up in another post explaining exactly why it is harmful. My reasons are religious but that doesn't make them wrong or ridiculous. If you disagree, that's fine, but the way you said it came off as hostile.
I'm glad there are many people in your town who aren't afraid to stand up for what they believe in.

You can hardly call me out on not being civil when you don't think everyone should be offered the same civil rights due to their sexual orientation.

Yes, I think it is ridiculous and absurd to say someone's soul will be harmed because they are gay. And if that is your opinion, then I believe your opinion is absurd and ridiculous.

And if the small-minded people in my town want to stand up for what they believe in then that's fine with me, as long as it doesn't interfere with other people's lives. But is this case, it does.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

CamilleJon:
cupcakes710:
CamilleJon:
Cupcake: I wanted to do away with the loooong quotes so you're in bold
Man, I thought we were doing a good job staying civil and tolerant here... I am doing my best to explain the Church's position.
Aren't we?
Never once did I just say "because the Church says so" or "because the Bible says so" and I really don't think this belief is absurd.
No, but you said "Homosexuality is harmful to the soul" which falls into the 'equally ridiculous' category, IMO.
Many people share it, though most probably not as willing to say so publicly for fear of being attacked.
Not true, I hear it often, especially in the small town I currently live in. Nobody is attacked for their beliefs, unless they feel attacked when someone disagrees with their beliefs. But if it is the only reasoning they can offer, I will always argue it.

I don't know... calling my opinion absurd and ridiculous didn't seem very civil to me.
I did say it was harmful to the soul but I backed that up in another post explaining exactly why it is harmful. My reasons are religious but that doesn't make them wrong or ridiculous. If you disagree, that's fine, but the way you said it came off as hostile.
I'm glad there are many people in your town who aren't afraid to stand up for what they believe in.
You can hardly call me out on not being civil when you don't think everyone should be offered the same civil rights due to their sexual orientation.
Yes, I think it is ridiculous and absurd to say someone's soul will be harmed because they are gay. And if that is your opinion, then I believe your opinion is absurd and ridiculous.
And if the small-minded people in my town want to stand up for what they believe in then that's fine with me, as long as it doesn't interfere with other people's lives. But is this case, it does.

Of course they should have civil rights! Marriage is not a civil right. Marriage is religious, and yes I believe that the homosexual act is a sin. I specifically said their soul is NOT harmed because they are gay, but it is if they commit a sin. Just like straight people harm their souls by committing sexual sin. Like I said God is always willing to forgive and He loves everyone no matter what their sexual orientation.

You can say my opinion is absurd, ridiculous or small minded. That's fine... it's not like I've never heard that before. I was just hoping we could keep our discussion civil on TB.

I am NOT a gay hater at all! I have many gay friends whom I love very much, and they know exactly how I feel about gay marriage. We've been able to have civil discussions about it.

jillybean800 · August 2011

kat81again2:
I responded to this but it didn't post.
I am extremely pro gay marriage. I can't see any reason why it should not be legal (unlike other hot issues, such as abortion; I am pro-choice and feel very strongly about that but I totally understand why people are against it.)
However, I feel like churches can do whatever they want on this issue. Separation of church and state!

WORD!!!!!

My feelings exactly.

kat81again2 · August 2011

cupcakes710:
kat81again2:
cupcakes710:

A baby does not deserve the death penalty for the crimes committed by the father.
Rape is something so horrible that I cannot even imagine it, but time and time again, women have said that their abortion of the baby conceived in rape hurt worse than the actual rape and just created more problems, more nightmares.
Women who allow their baby to live do not regret it, but most women who abort do.
The person in the womb is alive and deserve rights / to be protected. Why should he / she be punished for what the pervert did?
I understand that carrying a baby that the woman did not want for 9 months isn't fair to her either, but like I said, the women who do have these children are glad they did. I'm going to recommend another book: Conceived in Rape.
I completely understand all of the logic behind what you're saying, but I'm wondering if you have citations for your statistics? i.e. was there a scientifically conducted study that indicated that MORE women regretted their abortions than did not (I know that some women do regret them, though)? I think there are just as many anecdotes out there of it working out for people who got them; these are just not talked about. A friend of mine who has no desire to ever have children had protected sex last year and got pregnant in spite of it. She got an abortion. Then she got her tubes tied so it wouldn't happen again. She didn't look back or feel guilty or anything because she isn't morally against abortion.
Personally I just think that there should be LOTS of education about sex, pregnancy and STD prevention, etc. And lots of education about abortions, as well as the ability for women to choose to have them safely. I do think that enacting prevention measures like this would end up reducing overall abortions.
I'll agree with you that pretty much no mother will say, "I regret I didn't abort my kid," because we all know as moms that you fall in love pretty quickly with your little bug. On the other hand, most studies indicate that childless adults are happier than people with children (yes, including all of us who WANTED them!) So that's just something to consider...I am personally in favor of giving women the choice to live the life (incl those 9 months) the way they want to, especially if the pregnancy wasn't their fault.
All of this being said I can't really argue with "abortion is murder because conception starts with life." It is opinion. Science can tell you that for the first trimester of pregnancy (when something like 95%+ of abortions occur) your child is more primitive than the fish you had for dinner and not too different from the bug you stepped on but if you believe in souls, etc then I can't argue with that!
Yes there have been studies! I've done extensive research on this and everything I say can be backed up with statistics. Some books and websites are:
Pro Life Answers to Pro Choice Arguments by Randy Alcorn
Conceived in Rape
www.abort73.com
Forbidden Grief
In the book, Forbidden Grief, it talks about the different ways women deal with the grief and the guilt of having abortions. Your friend hasn't told you of her grief and she might not feel it yet. Some women feel the emotional effects 10 years after. We all have a conscience. Just because she doesn't think what she did was wrong doesn't mean it doesn't hurt deep down.
Most women end up with many more emotional problems after abortions even though they thought in having the abortion, they were opting for the quick fix to the original "problem". Forbidden Grief is a GREAT book to read - it is completely based in fact and interviews with victims of abortion.
Science will tell you that Life begins at conception. Cells start dividing, all the DNA is there immediately and it is different than both the mother's and father's DHA, the embryo followed by fetus starts growing and changing right away <-- that's life. The heart begins to beat at 18 days and brain waves can be detected at 40 days. Abortions occur after these milestones. To take that life, no matter how small it is, is murder.

I have to go but I will check out those resources!

As for "Science will tell you that Life begins at conception" -- everything you said is true, except that eggs and sperm are also alive so life begins before conception. All I was trying to say is that the cognitive/sensory/motor level -- i.e. "primitiveness" of the being at the embryo is equivalent to animals that many of us wouldn't think twice about killing. That being said, a) most people, especially religious people, would argue that humans intrinsically have a special standing in this world no matter their mental abilities and b) it's hard to make real comparisons across species like I was doing anyway.

I also need to go now but cupcakes I will hand it to you for voicing your opinions in spite of most people disagreeing, remaining civil, backing up what you say, etc. You have made this a really great discussion, especially considering we're on the internet and things can get ugly fast. You're a fantastic representative of your faith.

Oh and to attempt to moderate the one part where it did get a bit ugly--I think that what CamilleJon was objecting to was was the explanation because it didn't sound like an explanation. You said homosexual sex is not allowed because it's a sin. Why is it a sin? It is "intrisically disordered," well, in what way is it disordered? What does that mean? I do think the rest of what you said made sense to me (so hopefully to CamilleJon as well?) but I can see why CamilleJon thought that you were answering tautologically. That being said, she could have been more specific in her criticism of the explanation than to say, "that's ridiculous."

cupcakes710 · August 2011

kat81again2:
cupcakes710:
kat81again2:
cupcakes710:

A baby does not deserve the death penalty for the crimes committed by the father.
Rape is something so horrible that I cannot even imagine it, but time and time again, women have said that their abortion of the baby conceived in rape hurt worse than the actual rape and just created more problems, more nightmares.
Women who allow their baby to live do not regret it, but most women who abort do.
The person in the womb is alive and deserve rights / to be protected. Why should he / she be punished for what the pervert did?
I understand that carrying a baby that the woman did not want for 9 months isn't fair to her either, but like I said, the women who do have these children are glad they did. I'm going to recommend another book: Conceived in Rape.
I completely understand all of the logic behind what you're saying, but I'm wondering if you have citations for your statistics? i.e. was there a scientifically conducted study that indicated that MORE women regretted their abortions than did not (I know that some women do regret them, though)? I think there are just as many anecdotes out there of it working out for people who got them; these are just not talked about. A friend of mine who has no desire to ever have children had protected sex last year and got pregnant in spite of it. She got an abortion. Then she got her tubes tied so it wouldn't happen again. She didn't look back or feel guilty or anything because she isn't morally against abortion.
Personally I just think that there should be LOTS of education about sex, pregnancy and STD prevention, etc. And lots of education about abortions, as well as the ability for women to choose to have them safely. I do think that enacting prevention measures like this would end up reducing overall abortions.
I'll agree with you that pretty much no mother will say, "I regret I didn't abort my kid," because we all know as moms that you fall in love pretty quickly with your little bug. On the other hand, most studies indicate that childless adults are happier than people with children (yes, including all of us who WANTED them!) So that's just something to consider...I am personally in favor of giving women the choice to live the life (incl those 9 months) the way they want to, especially if the pregnancy wasn't their fault.
All of this being said I can't really argue with "abortion is murder because conception starts with life." It is opinion. Science can tell you that for the first trimester of pregnancy (when something like 95%+ of abortions occur) your child is more primitive than the fish you had for dinner and not too different from the bug you stepped on but if you believe in souls, etc then I can't argue with that!
Yes there have been studies! I've done extensive research on this and everything I say can be backed up with statistics. Some books and websites are:
Pro Life Answers to Pro Choice Arguments by Randy Alcorn
Conceived in Rape
www.abort73.com
Forbidden Grief
In the book, Forbidden Grief, it talks about the different ways women deal with the grief and the guilt of having abortions. Your friend hasn't told you of her grief and she might not feel it yet. Some women feel the emotional effects 10 years after. We all have a conscience. Just because she doesn't think what she did was wrong doesn't mean it doesn't hurt deep down.
Most women end up with many more emotional problems after abortions even though they thought in having the abortion, they were opting for the quick fix to the original "problem". Forbidden Grief is a GREAT book to read - it is completely based in fact and interviews with victims of abortion.
Science will tell you that Life begins at conception. Cells start dividing, all the DNA is there immediately and it is different than both the mother's and father's DHA, the embryo followed by fetus starts growing and changing right away <-- that's life. The heart begins to beat at 18 days and brain waves can be detected at 40 days. Abortions occur after these milestones. To take that life, no matter how small it is, is murder.
I have to go but I will check out those resources!
As for "Science will tell you that Life begins at conception" -- everything you said is true, except that eggs and sperm are also alive so life begins before conception. All I was trying to say is that the cognitive/sensory/motor level -- i.e. "primitiveness" of the being at the embryo is equivalent to animals that many of us wouldn't think twice about killing. That being said, a) most people, especially religious people, would argue that humans intrinsically have a special standing in this world no matter their mental abilities and b) it's hard to make real comparisons across species like I was doing anyway.
I also need to go now but cupcakes I will hand it to you for voicing your opinions in spite of most people disagreeing, remaining civil, backing up what you say, etc. You have made this a really great discussion, especially considering we're on the internet and things can get ugly fast. You're a fantastic representative of your faith.
Oh and to attempt to moderate the one part where it did get a bit ugly--I think that what CamilleJon was objecting to was was the explanation because it didn't sound like an explanation. You said homosexual sex is not allowed because it's a sin. Why is it a sin? It is "intrisically disordered," well, in what way is it disordered? What does that mean? I do think the rest of what you said made sense to me (so hopefully to CamilleJon as well?) but I can see why CamilleJon thought that you were answering tautologically. That being said, she could have been more specific in her criticism of the explanation than to say, "that's ridiculous."

Thank you! The bolded part means so much to me... you don't even know! I'm so glad we were able to talk about this calmly.

When I said "Life begins at conception" I meant new, unique, human life begins at conception. I know sperm and egg cells are alive but they are not people.

Oh ok. Disordered. Basically, heterosexual sex (within marriage) is what God intended because he created man and woman to be together and within a committed relationship, those two people can love each other in such a way that a new life is created. In this way, we are populating the earth. One problem with homosexual sex is that there is no way to procreate. Disordered means not functioning in a normal healthy way. People write BOOKS about this stuff; I can only give a condensed answer in this forum.

If You Really Loved Me by Jason Evert is seriously the best book ever! It explains God's purpose for sex so well!

Thanks again and talk to you later!

CamilleJon · August 2011

cupcakes710:
Of course they should have civil rights! Marriage is not a civil right.
It is actually.
Marriage is religious, and yes I believe that the homosexual act is a sin. I specifically said their soul is NOT harmed because they are gay, but it is if they commit a sin. Just like straight people harm their souls by committing sexual sin. Like I said God is always willing to forgive and He loves everyone no matter what their sexual orientation.
I think being gay, and participating in homosexual acts go hand in hand.
You can say my opinion is absurd, ridiculous or small minded. That's fine... it's not like I've never heard that before. I was just hoping we could keep our discussion civil on TB.
I am being civil.
I am NOT a gay hater at all! I have many gay friends whom I love very much, and they know exactly how I feel about gay marriage. We've been able to have civil discussions about it.
In these so-called civil discussions that you have with your many gay friends do you mention that you think that their homosexual acts will harm their souls? Do you tell them that you believe they shouldn't be allowed to have the same civil rights as you do?
If they are (your version of) civil after that then they must be deaf.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

CamilleJon:
cupcakes710:
Of course they should have civil rights! Marriage is not a civil right.
It is actually.
Marriage is religious, and yes I believe that the homosexual act is a sin. I specifically said their soul is NOT harmed because they are gay, but it is if they commit a sin. Just like straight people harm their souls by committing sexual sin. Like I said God is always willing to forgive and He loves everyone no matter what their sexual orientation.
I think being gay, and participating in homosexual acts go hand in hand.
You can say my opinion is absurd, ridiculous or small minded. That's fine... it's not like I've never heard that before. I was just hoping we could keep our discussion civil on TB.
I am being civil.
I am NOT a gay hater at all! I have many gay friends whom I love very much, and they know exactly how I feel about gay marriage. We've been able to have civil discussions about it.
In these so-called civil discussions that you have with your many gay friends do you mention that you think that their homosexual acts will harm their souls? Do you tell them that you believe they shouldn't be allowed to have the same civil rights as you do?
If they are (your version of) civil after that then they must be deaf.

Yeah I do. Except they do get the same civil rights as I do - marriage is not a civil right; it's a religious thing like I said before. They're great people and liberal - not deaf at all, just respectful.

CamilleJon · August 2011

cupcakes710:
CamilleJon:
cupcakes710:
Of course they should have civil rights! Marriage is not a civil right.
It is actually.
Marriage is religious, and yes I believe that the homosexual act is a sin. I specifically said their soul is NOT harmed because they are gay, but it is if they commit a sin. Just like straight people harm their souls by committing sexual sin. Like I said God is always willing to forgive and He loves everyone no matter what their sexual orientation.
I think being gay, and participating in homosexual acts go hand in hand.
You can say my opinion is absurd, ridiculous or small minded. That's fine... it's not like I've never heard that before. I was just hoping we could keep our discussion civil on TB.
I am being civil.
I am NOT a gay hater at all! I have many gay friends whom I love very much, and they know exactly how I feel about gay marriage. We've been able to have civil discussions about it.
In these so-called civil discussions that you have with your many gay friends do you mention that you think that their homosexual acts will harm their souls? Do you tell them that you believe they shouldn't be allowed to have the same civil rights as you do?
If they are (your version of) civil after that then they must be deaf.
Yeah I do. Except they do get the same civil rights as I do - marriage is not a civil right; it's a religious thing like I said before. They're great people and liberal - not deaf at all, just respectful.

Marriage has long been established as a civil right. It's in the first section of the 14th amendment. It's part of that "pursuit of happiness" thing.

ETA since you like links: This is the first case in which the supreme court used the 14th amendment to marriage as being a civil right. LiNk

cupcakes710 · August 2011

CamilleJon:
cupcakes710:
CamilleJon:
cupcakes710:
Of course they should have civil rights! Marriage is not a civil right.
It is actually.
Marriage is religious, and yes I believe that the homosexual act is a sin. I specifically said their soul is NOT harmed because they are gay, but it is if they commit a sin. Just like straight people harm their souls by committing sexual sin. Like I said God is always willing to forgive and He loves everyone no matter what their sexual orientation.
I think being gay, and participating in homosexual acts go hand in hand.
You can say my opinion is absurd, ridiculous or small minded. That's fine... it's not like I've never heard that before. I was just hoping we could keep our discussion civil on TB.
I am being civil.
I am NOT a gay hater at all! I have many gay friends whom I love very much, and they know exactly how I feel about gay marriage. We've been able to have civil discussions about it.
In these so-called civil discussions that you have with your many gay friends do you mention that you think that their homosexual acts will harm their souls? Do you tell them that you believe they shouldn't be allowed to have the same civil rights as you do?
If they are (your version of) civil after that then they must be deaf.
Yeah I do. Except they do get the same civil rights as I do - marriage is not a civil right; it's a religious thing like I said before. They're great people and liberal - not deaf at all, just respectful.
Marriage has long been established as a civil right. It's in the first section of the 14th amendment. It's part of that "pursuit of happiness" thing.

Let's just agree to disagree. I think I've said all my arguments. LO is up from her nap - I'm going to go play with her now.

It's been a great conversation - thanks to everyone who respected my opinion! I hope I did just as good a job respecting yours!!

CamilleJon · August 2011

cupcakes710:
CamilleJon:
cupcakes710:
CamilleJon:
cupcakes710:
Of course they should have civil rights! Marriage is not a civil right.
It is actually.
Marriage is religious, and yes I believe that the homosexual act is a sin. I specifically said their soul is NOT harmed because they are gay, but it is if they commit a sin. Just like straight people harm their souls by committing sexual sin. Like I said God is always willing to forgive and He loves everyone no matter what their sexual orientation.
I think being gay, and participating in homosexual acts go hand in hand.
You can say my opinion is absurd, ridiculous or small minded. That's fine... it's not like I've never heard that before. I was just hoping we could keep our discussion civil on TB.
I am being civil.
I am NOT a gay hater at all! I have many gay friends whom I love very much, and they know exactly how I feel about gay marriage. We've been able to have civil discussions about it.
In these so-called civil discussions that you have with your many gay friends do you mention that you think that their homosexual acts will harm their souls? Do you tell them that you believe they shouldn't be allowed to have the same civil rights as you do?
If they are (your version of) civil after that then they must be deaf.
Yeah I do. Except they do get the same civil rights as I do - marriage is not a civil right; it's a religious thing like I said before. They're great people and liberal - not deaf at all, just respectful.
Marriage has long been established as a civil right. It's in the first section of the 14th amendment. It's part of that "pursuit of happiness" thing.
Let's just agree to disagree. I think I've said all my arguments. LO is up from her nap - I'm going to go play with her now.
It's been a great conversation - thanks to everyone who respected my opinion! I hope I did just as good a job respecting yours!!

Done

And I'm sorry if you felt disrespected by my arguments, but gay marriage is a very hot button issue for me. It's just hard for me to be all PnR when I am so very adamantly against your beliefs.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

CamilleJon:
cupcakes710:
CamilleJon:
cupcakes710:
CamilleJon:
cupcakes710:
Of course they should have civil rights! Marriage is not a civil right.
It is actually.
Marriage is religious, and yes I believe that the homosexual act is a sin. I specifically said their soul is NOT harmed because they are gay, but it is if they commit a sin. Just like straight people harm their souls by committing sexual sin. Like I said God is always willing to forgive and He loves everyone no matter what their sexual orientation.
I think being gay, and participating in homosexual acts go hand in hand.
You can say my opinion is absurd, ridiculous or small minded. That's fine... it's not like I've never heard that before. I was just hoping we could keep our discussion civil on TB.
I am being civil.
I am NOT a gay hater at all! I have many gay friends whom I love very much, and they know exactly how I feel about gay marriage. We've been able to have civil discussions about it.
In these so-called civil discussions that you have with your many gay friends do you mention that you think that their homosexual acts will harm their souls? Do you tell them that you believe they shouldn't be allowed to have the same civil rights as you do?
If they are (your version of) civil after that then they must be deaf.
Yeah I do. Except they do get the same civil rights as I do - marriage is not a civil right; it's a religious thing like I said before. They're great people and liberal - not deaf at all, just respectful.
Marriage has long been established as a civil right. It's in the first section of the 14th amendment. It's part of that "pursuit of happiness" thing.
Let's just agree to disagree. I think I've said all my arguments. LO is up from her nap - I'm going to go play with her now.
It's been a great conversation - thanks to everyone who respected my opinion! I hope I did just as good a job respecting yours!!
Done
And I'm sorry if you felt disrespected by my arguments, but gay marriage is a very hot button issue for me. It's just hard for me to be all PnR when I am so very adamantly against your beliefs.

Well thank you. I'm sorry if I got overly defensive. It is a hot button issue and there are many opinions that I am adamantly against! I certainly understand where you're coming from.

PnR all around then! )

belizeitornot · August 2011

I haven't read all the responses, but I strongly believe gay couples should be entitled to the same legal rights as everyone else. But I also believe people don't choose to be gay (really, why would someone choose to be made to feel like a second class citizen in many aspects of their lives?) I have many many gay friends, some who are married, some who are not. Unfortunately, many of them also happen to live in states where their unions are not recognized by the law. One of my friends and her partner have a son and had to pay exhorbitant amounts to a lawyer to draw up papers allowing one another to keep their son should the other die, among other things.

I just think it is so ridiculous that gay couples have to jump through hoops to guarantee the same basic "rights" (I am blanking on the word I really want to use) afforded to heterosexual couples strictly based on who they love.

Mommysaurus123 · August 2011

Re: other responses earlier that are too long to quote, I think that marriage is now less of a religious thing than a civil thing. If marriage is only for the religious, then any atheist with a husband isn't really married, KWIM? You can still get married by anyone licensed to perform the wedding, not just by a pastor or priest. So I definitely think that gays should be allowed to get married.

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