HTT: Homosexuality and church

Mrs. K in TX · August 2011

The baptism thread below got me thinking about how our church (Methodist) is very much a social justice church, and at their last convention, they voted to allow homosexual people join the church. I know in our district, it passed. I'm not sure if it's passed for the Methodist church as a whole or if just for our district so far. I'll have to clarify with my pastor. This decision only refers to homosexual membership in the church, not marriage.

So, what's your view on homosexual people being members of a church? Also, what is your opinion on gay marriage?

I'm all for membership. I'm not sure how I feel religiously about gay marriage. Legally, I absolutely think it should be legal. Religiously, I guess I feel like it's not really my place to judge another person's decisions. I think the decision is really between them and God.

Our music director at church is actually married to another man.

mamaholmes2010 · August 2011

My Uncle has been with his life partner for 35+ years. He was my confirmation sponsor; so I think that homosexuals should have all the same rights in faith and in life as heterosexual couples. I think it will be a VERY long time before homosexuals will be allowed to be married in the catholic faith, but I think that many churches need to revise their strict adhearance to outdated ways of thinking in order to keep church membership up. I can count on one hand the number of couples at my parish that are in my age range.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

I'm a Catholic. A lot of people think Catholics or our Church hates gay people, but that is NOT true. God loves everyone and everyone is welcome in the Catholic faith. It is the homosexual act that is a sin, not being a homosexual. Similarly, premarital sex between straight people is a sin.

The Church actually has a very loving way of explaining why gay marriage is not ok, but I'm not very good at articulating it.

https://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm

https://www.americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/default.asp

There's a really great book explaining God's purpose and the Church's stance on human sexuality. If You Really Loved Me by Jason Evert

The Church's teaching on all this stuff is really beautiful... educating myself on it has actually made me a more faithful Catholic. I think it'd be a really great idea for people to "hear out" the Church before dismissing the whole issue as "love is love"

cupcakes710 · August 2011

mamaholmes2010:
My Uncle has been with his life partner for 35+ years. He was my confirmation sponsor; so I think that homosexuals should have all the same rights in faith and in life as heterosexual couples. I think it will be a VERY long time before homosexuals will be allowed to be married in the catholic faith, but I think that many churches need to revise their strict adhearance to outdated ways of thinking in order to keep church membership up. I can count on one hand the number of couples at my parish that are in my age range.

The Catholic Church will never allow gay marriage because it is harmful to the soul. Also, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit... God's law doesn't change with time. The teachings of the Catholic Church have stayed true to God for over 2000 years and will not fundamentally change.

My best friend is a lesbian and I love her to death; I also have friends who have sex before they're married. Everyone sins myself included... I know that having friends / family who do things that they shouldn't doesn't make the sins they commit ok.

Good news is God is ALWAYS willing to forgive no matter what a person does! He loves everyone!

kat81again2 · August 2011

I responded to this but it didn't post.

I am extremely pro gay marriage. I can't see any reason why it should not be legal (unlike other hot issues, such as abortion; I am pro-choice and feel very strongly about that but I totally understand why people are against it.)

However, I feel like churches can do whatever they want on this issue. Separation of church and state!

Mrs. K in TX · August 2011

RyeCatcher:

Ohhh you hit a nerve for me on this one. My bro is gay and I love love love his boyfriend. I want them to get married SO badly- so obviously I'm pro gay marriage.

As for church, they should absolutely be allowed to be a member of a church if they so choose. I just don't understand the segregation. They are human beings, they don't have the plague.

Our pastor's sermon a couple of weeks ago was about how Jesus accepted people who were less equal socially- women, children, handicapped, diseased, etc. She used this sermon as a segway to discussing the church's acceptance of homosexual members.

thatgirl85 · August 2011

I'm very pro-gay marriage. I wasn't a big church goer to begin with, and this whole issue (and other social issues, as well) makes me want to go even less. I'm very excited that states are finally moving towards the equality direction, and I hope that the rest of the US is there soon.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

kat81again2:
I responded to this but it didn't post.
I am extremely pro gay marriage. I can't see any reason why it should not be legal (unlike other hot issues, such as abortion; I am pro-choice and feel very strongly about that but I totally understand why people are against it.)
However, I feel like churches can do whatever they want on this issue. Separation of church and state!

I know what you mean... I'm against gay marriage mostly because of my religion, but I'd be Pro Life even if I didn't believe in God. Very different issues.

kat81again2 · August 2011

cupcakes710:
I'm a Catholic. A lot of people think Catholics or our Church hates gay people, but that is NOT true. God loves everyone and everyone is welcome in the Catholic faith. It is the homosexual act that is a sin, not being a homosexual. Similarly, premarital sex between straight people is a sin.
The Church actually has a very loving way of explaining why gay marriage is not ok, but I'm not very good at articulating it.
https://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm
https://www.americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/default.asp
There's a really great book explaining God's purpose and the Church's stance on human sexuality. If You Really Loved Me by Jason Evert
The Church's teaching on all this stuff is really beautiful... educating myself on it has actually made me a more faithful Catholic. I think it'd be a really great idea for people to "hear out" the Church before dismissing the whole issue as "love is love"

Oh and by the way cupcakes I clicked on these links to read later (in spite of being vehement about my views I do like to read the other perspective!) and I noticed the heading "Bishops Urge Constitutional Amendment to Protect Marriage." That's what really bothers me. It is one for the church to have its views, rules, stance, etc, but I strongly oppose the mixing of church and state. So in general I'm not going to argue with the Catholic's stance on gay marriage within the church itself but if it's going to try to interfere with the state's laws I will fight back.

By the way this is not an attack on you at all!!!

cupcakes710 · August 2011

kat81again2:
cupcakes710:
I'm a Catholic. A lot of people think Catholics or our Church hates gay people, but that is NOT true. God loves everyone and everyone is welcome in the Catholic faith. It is the homosexual act that is a sin, not being a homosexual. Similarly, premarital sex between straight people is a sin.
The Church actually has a very loving way of explaining why gay marriage is not ok, but I'm not very good at articulating it.
https://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm
https://www.americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/default.asp
There's a really great book explaining God's purpose and the Church's stance on human sexuality. If You Really Loved Me by Jason Evert
The Church's teaching on all this stuff is really beautiful... educating myself on it has actually made me a more faithful Catholic. I think it'd be a really great idea for people to "hear out" the Church before dismissing the whole issue as "love is love"
Oh and by the way cupcakes I clicked on these links to read later (in spite of being vehement about my views I do like to read the other perspective!) and I noticed the heading "Bishops Urge Constitutional Amendment to Protect Marriage." That's what really bothers me. It is one for the church to have its views, rules, stance, etc, but I strongly oppose the mixing of church and state. So in general I'm not going to argue with the Catholic's stance on gay marriage within the church itself but if it's going to try to interfere with the state's laws I will fight back.
By the way this is not an attack on you!

I did not read this as an attack at all! In the past, the Dec Mommas have always been very respectful when we talk about hot button issues (and I hope we can all be civil in this VERY controversial thread).

I understand what you mean, but I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think it's very important that we let our faith influence every part of ourselves. Religion isn't meant to be a hidden part of is ... or left in the church when we walk out the doors on Sunday. The founding fathers said democracy would never work if the people in its society weren't virtuous.

It seems to me that although in many places, gay people can have civil unions, they really just want the word 'marriage' which is a religious term and something meant to be something between one man and one woman.

lulu3061 · August 2011

I am very pro-gay marriage. Period.

Mrs. K in TX · August 2011

kat81again2:

Oh and by the way cupcakes I clicked on these links to read later (in spite of being vehement about my views I do like to read the other perspective!) and I noticed the heading "Bishops Urge Constitutional Amendment to Protect Marriage." That's what really bothers me. It is one for the church to have its views, rules, stance, etc, but I strongly oppose the mixing of church and state. So in general I'm not going to argue with the Catholic's stance on gay marriage within the church itself but if it's going to try to interfere with the state's laws I will fight back.

By the way this is not an attack on you!

This, exactly. I'm really glad that there's a discussion going on in our church (the Methodist church as a whole, not just my congregation), and many other denominations are having the same discussion. It does really bother me that our government wants to "protect" marriage by prohibiting gay marriage. I think that two consenting adults should be able to make the commitment of marriage to each other with the same legal rights, no matter what their genders are (I use gender here purposefully, instead of sex).

As far as marriage in a church, I think that the individual churches can decide what their stances on this are. Again, I'm not sure how I feel about it religiously. I don't think I'm versed enough in the scripture surrounding it to really have an opinion.

nursedevivo · August 2011

This is definitely a hot topic.

I will say that I am for marriage to be between a man and a woman.

But I'm also extremely conservative and probably in the minority. That's ok, I'm used to being the weird one.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

nursedevivo:
This is definitely a hot topic.

I will say that I am for marriage to be between a man and a woman.

But I'm also extremely conservative and probably in the minority. That's ok, I'm used to being the weird one.

Haha we're in the same boat! But although we're probably in the minority on TB, conservatives are the "silent majority" remember. )

kat81again2 · August 2011

cupcakes710:
kat81again2:
cupcakes710:
I'm a Catholic. A lot of people think Catholics or our Church hates gay people, but that is NOT true. God loves everyone and everyone is welcome in the Catholic faith. It is the homosexual act that is a sin, not being a homosexual. Similarly, premarital sex between straight people is a sin.
The Church actually has a very loving way of explaining why gay marriage is not ok, but I'm not very good at articulating it.
https://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm
https://www.americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/default.asp
There's a really great book explaining God's purpose and the Church's stance on human sexuality. If You Really Loved Me by Jason Evert
The Church's teaching on all this stuff is really beautiful... educating myself on it has actually made me a more faithful Catholic. I think it'd be a really great idea for people to "hear out" the Church before dismissing the whole issue as "love is love"
Oh and by the way cupcakes I clicked on these links to read later (in spite of being vehement about my views I do like to read the other perspective!) and I noticed the heading "Bishops Urge Constitutional Amendment to Protect Marriage." That's what really bothers me. It is one for the church to have its views, rules, stance, etc, but I strongly oppose the mixing of church and state. So in general I'm not going to argue with the Catholic's stance on gay marriage within the church itself but if it's going to try to interfere with the state's laws I will fight back.
By the way this is not an attack on you!
I did not read this as an attack at all! In the past, the Dec Mommas have always been very respectful when we talk about hot button issues (and I hope we can all be civil in this VERY controversial thread).
I understand what you mean, but I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think it's very important that we let our faith influence every part of ourselves. Religion isn't meant to be a hidden part of is ... or left in the church when we walk out the doors on Sunday. The founding fathers said democracy would never work if the people in its society weren't virtuous.
It seems to me that although in many places, gay people can have civil unions, they really just want the word 'marriage' which is a religious term and something meant to be something between one man and one woman.

Well, our constitution separates church and state. That's the way it's set up. So that's why I feel strongly about it. When politicians try to mix the two, especially the politicians who claim to be constitutionalists, I get pretty peeved about that. If it weren't set up to be separate then fine, but the thing is that it is supposed to be separate, in part because we have freedom of religion (i.e. we're not all required to practice the same one) so it would be impossible to regulate things if we mixed church and state anyhow.

As for this, "The founding fathers said democracy would never work if the people in its society weren't virtuous" I completely agree!! I just don't think that people have to be religious to be virtuous/ethical/moral. As someone who is agnostic (and basically atheist), it sort of stings whenever people equate religion and virtue, because I think of myself as someone who has a strong moral and ethical code that coheres with those of most religions.

Many of our laws also cohere with the rules of religions, such as things like, "thou shalt not kill." That's a no-brainer. And so of course I think it's reasonable for our moral codes to influence our laws. I just don't think it's appropriate to say, "God says X, so it should be a law" in this country. People agree on some basic moral codes, but they absolutely do not agree on what God says when they don't all believe in the same one. So if politicians can come up with a reason to have a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage that does not invoke God, then fine, we can debate it. But God is not a reason, not under this constitution!

Relatedly, something that really bothers me as a scientist is the notion that we should teach creationism in schools. I do think it has an important place in history and/or religion classes but NOT SCIENCE. It is not science. There may be some "scientists" who ascribe to it but it's like 0.001% of them (that's a guess)...and we don't have room in grade school to teach such far-off-of-mainstream-science views.

P.S.: I am all for there being a separate legal and religious marriage. I agree that the words "civil union" and "marriage" sort of mess this up. Legally I think the rights should be the same for same-sex and heterosex couples. But religiously they can be viewed differently; I don't care. I just think it's odd that as a non-believer I get to call my union a "marriage" just because it's a man and a woman. Can we just make the default one the legal one, and then you have to do something extra to get the religious one?

chickaboo1974 · August 2011

I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.

thatgirl85 · August 2011

chickaboo1974:
I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.

Get out of my head! That goes through my mind every time I read about someone trying to ban abortions or gay marriage.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

kat81again2:
cupcakes710:
kat81again2:
cupcakes710:
I'm a Catholic. A lot of people think Catholics or our Church hates gay people, but that is NOT true. God loves everyone and everyone is welcome in the Catholic faith. It is the homosexual act that is a sin, not being a homosexual. Similarly, premarital sex between straight people is a sin.
The Church actually has a very loving way of explaining why gay marriage is not ok, but I'm not very good at articulating it.
https://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm
https://www.americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/default.asp
There's a really great book explaining God's purpose and the Church's stance on human sexuality. If You Really Loved Me by Jason Evert
The Church's teaching on all this stuff is really beautiful... educating myself on it has actually made me a more faithful Catholic. I think it'd be a really great idea for people to "hear out" the Church before dismissing the whole issue as "love is love"
Oh and by the way cupcakes I clicked on these links to read later (in spite of being vehement about my views I do like to read the other perspective!) and I noticed the heading "Bishops Urge Constitutional Amendment to Protect Marriage." That's what really bothers me. It is one for the church to have its views, rules, stance, etc, but I strongly oppose the mixing of church and state. So in general I'm not going to argue with the Catholic's stance on gay marriage within the church itself but if it's going to try to interfere with the state's laws I will fight back.
By the way this is not an attack on you!
I did not read this as an attack at all! In the past, the Dec Mommas have always been very respectful when we talk about hot button issues (and I hope we can all be civil in this VERY controversial thread).
I understand what you mean, but I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think it's very important that we let our faith influence every part of ourselves. Religion isn't meant to be a hidden part of is ... or left in the church when we walk out the doors on Sunday. The founding fathers said democracy would never work if the people in its society weren't virtuous.
It seems to me that although in many places, gay people can have civil unions, they really just want the word 'marriage' which is a religious term and something meant to be something between one man and one woman.
Well, our constitution separates church and state. That's the way it's set up. So that's why I feel strongly about it. When politicians try to mix the two, especially the politicians who claim to be constitutionalists, I get pretty peeved about that. If it weren't set up to be separate then fine, but the thing is that it is supposed to be separate, in part because we have freedom of religion (i.e. we're not all required to practice the same one) so it would be impossible to regulate things if we mixed church and state anyhow.
As for this, "The founding fathers said democracy would never work if the people in its society weren't virtuous" I completely agree!! I just don't think that people have to be religious to be virtuous/ethical/moral. As someone who is agnostic (and basically atheist), it sort of stings whenever people equate religion and virtue, because I think of myself as someone who has a strong moral and ethical code that coheres with those of most religions.
Many of our laws also cohere with the rules of religions, such as things like, "thou shalt not kill." That's a no-brainer. And so of course I think it's reasonable for our moral codes to influence our laws. I just don't think it's appropriate to say, "God says X, so it should be a law" in this country. People agree on some basic moral codes, but they absolutely do not agree on what God says when they don't all believe in the same one. So if politicians can come up with a reason to have a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage that does not invoke God, then fine, we can debate it. But God is not a reason, not under this constitution!
Relatedly, something that really bothers me as a scientist is the notion that we should teach creationism in schools. I do think it has an important place in history and/or religion classes but NOT SCIENCE. It is not science. There may be some "scientists" who ascribe to it but it's like 0.001% of them (that's a guess)...and we don't have room in grade school to teach such far-off-of-mainstream-science views.

Actually, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure separation of church and state is not in the constitution, but in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson. And I do know that separation of church and state was meant to mean keep the state out of the church... we are free to worship as we wish.

I agree that you can definitely be virtuous without being religious, but I think sexual purity is a virtue.

It seems like you're arguing about civil unions being legal... marriage is a religious term and that's why it shouldn't be changed by our government. Religion says marriage is between a man and a woman. If same sex couples want to have civil unions that is a state thing... the problem is they want the word marriage but the definition of marriage is one that does not fit for homosexual couples and the government should not be allowed to change that.

As for creationism, I believe in Intelligent Design, and I think schools should present all angles. The Science without God Big Bang Theory has some pretty big holes in it (haha no pun intended) that Intelligent Design can fill, and although I don't think it should be the only thing taught in Public Schools, I don't see why the theory can't be presented.

nursedevivo · August 2011

Although I am conservative, and have my beliefs and values I feel I am tolerant and accepting.

I just know the same people who preach tolerance and acceptance do not tolerate or accept MY opinions.

kat81again2 · August 2011

thatgirl85:
chickaboo1974:
I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.
Get out of my head! That goes through my mind every time I read about someone trying to ban abortions or gay marriage.

As much as I want to have this sentiment and I agree with both of you on both of those issues, I feel like you can take this notion too far: "Think taxes should be raised to fund public health and public schools? Then donate your own money to the government if you like!" So I do believe in some regulation that makes people do things they don't want to do (esp taxes...how else will we pay for stuff like roads?)

cupcakes710 · August 2011

chickaboo1974:
I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.

As for the gay marriage and legal aspect, I get what you're saying... I wrote my opinion in the post above about the difference between marriage and civil union.

Abortion is completely different. You can't say "don't believe in abortion rights - then don't have one." ... Pro Lifers believe abortion is murder. We think it should be illegal just like murder is illegal. That's like saying "don't believe in murder, don't kill anyone." or "Don't believe in rape, don't rape anyone." KWIM?

nursedevivo · August 2011

cupcakes710:
chickaboo1974:

I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.

As for the gay marriage and legal aspect, I get what you're saying... I wrote my opinion in the post above about the difference between marriage and civil union.

Abortion is completely different. You can't say "don't believe in abortion rights - then don't have one." ... Pro Lifers believe abortion is murder. We think it should be illegal just like murder is illegal. That's like saying "don't believe in murder, don't kill anyone." or "Don't believe in rape, don't rape anyone." KWIM?

I am 100% pro-life and see that abortion is murder.

BUT...I don't think that they way many people protest abortion is productive AT ALL. I hate that it makes pro-lifepeople look crazy. I'm NOT crazy. I think.

**edited for wording**

cupcakes710 · August 2011

thatgirl85:
chickaboo1974:
I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.
Get out of my head! That goes through my mind every time I read about someone trying to ban abortions or gay marriage.

I bet you're ok with murder being illegal. If abortion is killing a baby - and I think it is - then it should be illegal just like killing a baby out of the womb is illegal. We need to stand up for the people in this world who can't speak up for themselves.

Simply "not having an abortion" won't help babies / women hurt by abortion.

I just don't think this logic works here...

cupcakes710 · August 2011

nursedevivo:
cupcakes710:
chickaboo1974:

I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.

As for the gay marriage and legal aspect, I get what you're saying... I wrote my opinion in the post above about the difference between marriage and civil union.

Abortion is completely different. You can't say "don't believe in abortion rights - then don't have one." ... Pro Lifers believe abortion is murder. We think it should be illegal just like murder is illegal. That's like saying "don't believe in murder, don't kill anyone." or "Don't believe in rape, don't rape anyone." KWIM?

I am 100% pro-life and see that abortion is murder.

BUT...I don't think that they way many people protest abortion is productive AT ALL. I hate that it makes pro-lifepeople look crazy. I'm NOT crazy. I think.

**edited for wording**

I think the media makes us Pro Life protesters look crazy, but I promise we're not! We are mostly peaceful and prayerful protesters.

thatgirl85 · August 2011

cupcakes710:
thatgirl85:
chickaboo1974:
I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.
Get out of my head! That goes through my mind every time I read about someone trying to ban abortions or gay marriage.
I bet you're ok with murder being illegal. If abortion is killing a baby - and I think it is - then it should be illegal just like killing a baby out of the womb is illegal. We need to stand up for the people in this world who can't speak up for themselves.
Simply "not having an abortion" won't help babies / women hurt by abortion.
I just don't think this logic works here...

I don't view abortion as murder. If abortions are banned, they will not stop. They will happen illegally and without healthy and safety regulations. For these reasons, I do not believe abortion will ever be made illegal. I wish more time and money was invested in promoting safe sex and birth control instead of anti-abortion efforts.

Clearly you and I are on VERY opposite ends of the spectrum and have different opinions on "logic." I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

CamilleJon · August 2011

Personally, I don't understand why anyone who was looking for acceptance would want to join a church.

Anyway, it really makes me sick to my stomach when I see hear things like "I don't agree with gay marriage because of my religion" and then turn around and say "god/Jesus/whoever loves and accepts everyone". SO hypocritical and gross.

Food for thought, flame me if you want: My friend, who is a minister in, studied Aramaic in the holy land (and since that is the language that Jesus and the entirety of that Middle Eastern region spoke back then, I believe the bible was written in Aramaic) and read the original version of the bible. She says that there is nothing in the original bible that is even relatively close to the english translation. She says the only mention of homosexuality at all is directed at the Romans saying something like 'you have to continue sleeping with women or the human race will die out', never did it say anything about homosexuality being wrong.

I bet Jesus was a pretty cool dude, and I doubt he cared who anybody married... or was sleeping with for that matter.

EVM1216 · August 2011

I seriously do not understand the difference between "civil union" and "marriage" when it comes to legal issues for the state. Po-tay-toe, pa-tat-toe. A "civil union" is just a way for the government to put gay people on the back of bus and still feel good about themselves. I think that its nonsense that we are openly (and in some cases proudly) refusing to give equal rights and protections to a segment of our population.

However, if a church says no gay marriage, the act of homosexuality is a sin, etc. That's thier right. I don't agree, but they have the right to say it. They do not have the right to take away other citizen's rights and protections though.

principessa81 · August 2011

DH and I attend a more liberal Catholic church, which suits us. One of the reasons we really like our church and priest is his welcoming manner towards gay and lesbian members of the congregation. I know what the church's stance is on gay marriage, but I don't agree with it. I think two people who love each other absolutely should be able to get married. There was a lesbian couple in our childbirth class who DH and I got to know very well. We live in MA, and after their daughter was born they went to the courthouse and got married. I just feel badly that while their marriage is recognized in MA, it isn't in many other states. That being said, I think if a particular religion isn't comfortable marrying gay/lesbian partners, they shouldn't have to.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:

mamaholmes2010:
My Uncle has been with his life partner for 35+ years. He was my confirmation sponsor; so I think that homosexuals should have all the same rights in faith and in life as heterosexual couples. I think it will be a VERY long time before homosexuals will be allowed to be married in the catholic faith, but I think that many churches need to revise their strict adhearance to outdated ways of thinking in order to keep church membership up. I can count on one hand the number of couples at my parish that are in my age range.

The Catholic Church will never allow gay marriage because it is harmful to the soul. Also, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit... God's law doesn't change with time. The teachings of the Catholic Church have stayed true to God for over 2000 years and will not fundamentally change.

My best friend is a lesbian and I love her to death; I also have friends who have sex before they're married. Everyone sins myself included... I know that having friends / family who do things that they shouldn't doesn't make the sins they commit ok.

Good news is God is ALWAYS willing to forgive no matter what a person does! He loves everyone!

Can you elaborate on the bolded above please. Honestly, I'm not looking to start a fight, I truly want to understand what's behind that view point.

So far I think we're doing a good job staying civil here... I hope I am too... I'm trying to be as charitable and loving as I can in my responses. This is a hard topic to not get heated about.

Of course I will try to elaborate, though admittedly, I'm not very good at it and would encourage you to go to the websites I linked to or other Catholic sites so the Church can do a better job defending herself.

The homosexual act is intrinsically disordered and it is a sin. As I said before, just like premarital sex is a sin. Mortal sins cause one to separate themselves from the love of God (though God still loves all sinners!). There are 3 conditions for something to be a mortal sin: 1. It must be a grave (serious) matter (gay marriage is) 2.) one must participate in the sin with full consent (OBVIOUSLY being raped is NOT a sin!) and 3.) One must be committing the sin knowing what they are doing is wrong. A person cannot get into Heaven with mortal sins on their soul. Of course ANY sin can be forgiven - Catholics believe (because Jesus taught us this) that one must go to confession to get their soul wiped clean.

All I want is for everyone to go to heaven which is why I say I don't want any harm to come to anyone's soul. The Church will not all of a sudden approve of something that is and has always been a sin. The Church exists as a hospital for sinners, not a house for saints. Jesus wants everyone with Him in heaven, but we have to accept His teachings and choose Heaven for ourselves.

Does that at least make sense even if you don't agree with it? As I said, I'm not very good at articulating my view on this.... I wish I could explain better.

CamilleJon · August 2011

cupcakes710:
RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:

mamaholmes2010:
My Uncle has been with his life partner for 35+ years. He was my confirmation sponsor; so I think that homosexuals should have all the same rights in faith and in life as heterosexual couples. I think it will be a VERY long time before homosexuals will be allowed to be married in the catholic faith, but I think that many churches need to revise their strict adhearance to outdated ways of thinking in order to keep church membership up. I can count on one hand the number of couples at my parish that are in my age range.

The Catholic Church will never allow gay marriage because it is harmful to the soul. Also, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit... God's law doesn't change with time. The teachings of the Catholic Church have stayed true to God for over 2000 years and will not fundamentally change.

My best friend is a lesbian and I love her to death; I also have friends who have sex before they're married. Everyone sins myself included... I know that having friends / family who do things that they shouldn't doesn't make the sins they commit ok.

Good news is God is ALWAYS willing to forgive no matter what a person does! He loves everyone!

Can you elaborate on the bolded above please. Honestly, I'm not looking to start a fight, I truly want to understand what's behind that view point.
So far I think we're doing a good job staying civil here... I hope I am too... I'm trying to be as charitable and loving as I can in my responses. This is a hard topic to not get heated about.
Of course I will try to elaborate, though admittedly, I'm not very good at it and would encourage you to go to the websites I linked to or other Catholic sites so the Church can do a better job defending herself.
The homosexual act is intrinsically disordered and it is a sin. As I said before, just like premarital sex is a sin. Mortal sins cause one to separate themselves from the love of God (though God still loves all sinners!). There are 3 conditions for something to be a mortal sin: 1. It must be a grave (serious) matter (gay marriage is) 2.) one must participate in the sin with full consent (OBVIOUSLY being raped is NOT a sin!) and 3.) One must be committing the sin knowing what they are doing is wrong. A person cannot get into Heaven with mortal sins on their soul. Of course ANY sin can be forgiven - Catholics believe (because Jesus taught us this) that one must go to confession to get their soul wiped clean.
All I want is for everyone to go to heaven which is why I say I don't want any harm to come to anyone's soul. The Church will not all of a sudden approve of something that is and has always been a sin. The Church exists as a hospital for sinners, not a house for saints. Jesus wants everyone with Him in heaven, but we have to accept His teachings and choose Heaven for ourselves.
Does that at least make sense even if you don't agree with it? As I said, I'm not very good at articulating my view on this.... I wish I could explain better.

Really? That's like me saying to you "go rent Bill Maher's movie 'Religulous' to understand where I'm coming from.".

Anytime you ask a religious, anti-gay person why they are the way they are, and why they believe in such an absurdity, their only answer will be "because the bible says so" or something equally ridiculous.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

thatgirl85:
cupcakes710:
thatgirl85:
chickaboo1974:
I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.
Get out of my head! That goes through my mind every time I read about someone trying to ban abortions or gay marriage.
I bet you're ok with murder being illegal. If abortion is killing a baby - and I think it is - then it should be illegal just like killing a baby out of the womb is illegal. We need to stand up for the people in this world who can't speak up for themselves.
Simply "not having an abortion" won't help babies / women hurt by abortion.
I just don't think this logic works here...
I don't view abortion as murder. If abortions are banned, they will not stop. They will happen illegally and without healthy and safety regulations. For these reasons, I do not believe abortion will ever be made illegal. I wish more time and money was invested in promoting safe sex and birth control instead of anti-abortion efforts.
Clearly you and I are on VERY opposite ends of the spectrum and have different opinions on "logic." I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Yes, I've noticed before that we're on opposite ends, and I will agree to disagree, but I have some problems with what you say here because you're missing some of the facts.

In the year before abortion was legal, only 24 women were killed - the claim that tens of thousands were killed in "illegal back ally" abortions was admitted to be a lie by the doctor who said it. Abortion is not "Safe and few" as pro-abortion advocates claim it to be. In the book, Lime 5, there are presented many deaths of women who get "safe, legal" abortions as well as injuries and permanent damage resulting in sterilization.

The fact is abortion clinics are LESS regulated than veterinary clinics and abortion can not only physically harm women, it also hurts them emotionally and psycologically.

No money is spent on pro life efforts! At least not by the government... certainly people donate to the pro life cause.

I believe that abortion will some day be illegal.

I wish more people knew about Natural Family Planning and God's amazing plan for human sexuality! )

cupcakes710 · August 2011

RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:
thatgirl85:
chickaboo1974:

I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.

Get out of my head! That goes through my mind every time I read about someone trying to ban abortions or gay marriage.

I bet you're ok with murder being illegal. If abortion is killing a baby - and I think it is - then it should be illegal just like killing a baby out of the womb is illegal. We need to stand up for the people in this world who can't speak up for themselves.

Simply "not having an abortion" won't help babies / women hurt by abortion.

I just don't think this logic works here...

Your statement above forces me to ask about your stance when someone becomes pregnant from a violent act- ie. rape, incest, etc. Or took precautionary methods to not get pregnant due to medical reasons, but then ended up pregnant anyway.

For the record, I am pro-choice but ever since having H, the thought of it makes me ill. However, I would never take away a women's right to choose that option if it's what she felt was right for her and her family.

A baby does not deserve the death penalty for the crimes committed by the father.

Rape is something so horrible that I cannot even imagine it, but time and time again, women have said that their abortion of the baby conceived in rape hurt worse than the actual rape and just created more problems, more nightmares.

Women who allow their baby to live do not regret it, but most women who abort do.

The person in the womb is alive and deserve rights / to be protected. Why should he / she be punished for what the pervert did?

I understand that carrying a baby that the woman did not want for 9 months isn't fair to her either, but like I said, the women who do have these children are glad they did. I'm going to recommend another book: Conceived in Rape.

honkytonk_kid · August 2011

CamilleJon:
Anytime you ask a religious, anti-gay person why they are the way they are, and why they believe in such an absurdity, their only answer will be "because the bible says so" or something equally ridiculous.

Christians believe the Bible is the infallible word of God, why would another reason be necessary?

And this thought of Jesus being just some cool dude who doesn't care what you do is absurd to me. Good parents are not the ones who are their kids' BFF, don't care what they do, who they sleep with, when they get home etc. Good parents are lovingly strict. Of course Jesus cares what you do. It doesn't mean He loves you any less, but why would he not care if you do things that are against His will, and hurt yourself or others?

cupcakes710 · August 2011

RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:
RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:

mamaholmes2010:
My Uncle has been with his life partner for 35+ years. He was my confirmation sponsor; so I think that homosexuals should have all the same rights in faith and in life as heterosexual couples. I think it will be a VERY long time before homosexuals will be allowed to be married in the catholic faith, but I think that many churches need to revise their strict adhearance to outdated ways of thinking in order to keep church membership up. I can count on one hand the number of couples at my parish that are in my age range.

The Catholic Church will never allow gay marriage because it is harmful to the soul. Also, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit... God's law doesn't change with time. The teachings of the Catholic Church have stayed true to God for over 2000 years and will not fundamentally change.

My best friend is a lesbian and I love her to death; I also have friends who have sex before they're married. Everyone sins myself included... I know that having friends / family who do things that they shouldn't doesn't make the sins they commit ok.

Good news is God is ALWAYS willing to forgive no matter what a person does! He loves everyone!

Can you elaborate on the bolded above please. Honestly, I'm not looking to start a fight, I truly want to understand what's behind that view point.

So far I think we're doing a good job staying civil here... I hope I am too... I'm trying to be as charitable and loving as I can in my responses. This is a hard topic to not get heated about.

Of course I will try to elaborate, though admittedly, I'm not very good at it and would encourage you to go to the websites I linked to or other Catholic sites so the Church can do a better job defending herself.

The homosexual act is intrinsically disordered and it is a sin. As I said before, just like premarital sex is a sin. Mortal sins cause one to separate themselves from the love of God (though God still loves all sinners!). There are 3 conditions for something to be a mortal sin: 1. It must be a grave (serious) matter (gay marriage is) 2.) one must participate in the sin with full consent (OBVIOUSLY being raped is NOT a sin!) and 3.) One must be committing the sin knowing what they are doing is wrong. A person cannot get into Heaven with mortal sins on their soul. Of course ANY sin can be forgiven - Catholics believe (because Jesus taught us this) that one must go to confession to get their soul wiped clean.

All I want is for everyone to go to heaven which is why I say I don't want any harm to come to anyone's soul. The Church will not all of a sudden approve of something that is and has always been a sin. The Church exists as a hospital for sinners, not a house for saints. Jesus wants everyone with Him in heaven, but we have to accept His teachings and choose Heaven for ourselves.

Does that at least make sense even if you don't agree with it? As I said, I'm not very good at articulating my view on this.... I wish I could explain better.

Thank you for elaborating, and you comment makes sense even though I do not agree with it. (Hard to tell tone over the interwebz- so I'll just say here that I'm not being hostile)

My main problem is this, from what you said. "One must be committing the sin know that they are wrong." I contend that two people that love each other, being intimate with each other, regardless of gender, would be the most natural and right thing anyone could do in their relationship. I don't think it's wrong when I am intimate with my husband, and I doubt that my brother feels that he's doing something wrong when he is intimate with his boyfriend. It's one of those "in the eye of the beholder" situations.

Again, not attacking and not looking for you to agree. Just putting it out there that I don't know why the church feels they have the authority to label something as wrong.

I try really hard sometimes to picture how I would feel if someone told me that it was wrong for me to like men. That it was wrong and that I should be with women instead. I couldn't force myself to be gay anymore then a gay person could force themself to be straight. So why should gay people be punished for something that they have no control over?

Hi again, thank YOU for not attacking me and being open to listen even though you don't agree. I'm enjoying this discussion with you because you are being so civil and kind. I am happy to back this up as best as I can because it is my opinion. Thank you again for not being insulting and mean!

I see what you're saying about feeling what they are doing is right. This condition is one reason why we cannot judge people or condemn anyone to hell. We do not know what they know, KWIM? However, I do believe that everyone should be searching for the truth. Jesus gave us the Church to guide us and He promised that God will always guide the Church and help lead us to Him (<--God Himself gives the Church the authority). The Church illustrates, very well - much better than I am doing right now, why the homosexual act is wrong / a sin. We can't just put our fingers in our ears so we don't hear the truth. Questioning the Church is fine and encouraged! But I don't think many people give the Church the chance to explain. Another great book: Theology of the Body for Beginners (the actually encyclical by Pope John Paul II is kind of complex)

Gay people are not punished for being gay, but for the sexual act. We all have to avoid different temptations, and it is hard. Not going to say it isn't, but ultimately, Heaven is worth it.

Nicole0012 · August 2011

RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:
RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:

mamaholmes2010:
My Uncle has been with his life partner for 35+ years. He was my confirmation sponsor; so I think that homosexuals should have all the same rights in faith and in life as heterosexual couples. I think it will be a VERY long time before homosexuals will be allowed to be married in the catholic faith, but I think that many churches need to revise their strict adhearance to outdated ways of thinking in order to keep church membership up. I can count on one hand the number of couples at my parish that are in my age range.

The Catholic Church will never allow gay marriage because it is harmful to the soul. Also, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit... God's law doesn't change with time. The teachings of the Catholic Church have stayed true to God for over 2000 years and will not fundamentally change.

My best friend is a lesbian and I love her to death; I also have friends who have sex before they're married. Everyone sins myself included... I know that having friends / family who do things that they shouldn't doesn't make the sins they commit ok.

Good news is God is ALWAYS willing to forgive no matter what a person does! He loves everyone!

Can you elaborate on the bolded above please. Honestly, I'm not looking to start a fight, I truly want to understand what's behind that view point.

So far I think we're doing a good job staying civil here... I hope I am too... I'm trying to be as charitable and loving as I can in my responses. This is a hard topic to not get heated about.

Of course I will try to elaborate, though admittedly, I'm not very good at it and would encourage you to go to the websites I linked to or other Catholic sites so the Church can do a better job defending herself.

The homosexual act is intrinsically disordered and it is a sin. As I said before, just like premarital sex is a sin. Mortal sins cause one to separate themselves from the love of God (though God still loves all sinners!). There are 3 conditions for something to be a mortal sin: 1. It must be a grave (serious) matter (gay marriage is) 2.) one must participate in the sin with full consent (OBVIOUSLY being raped is NOT a sin!) and 3.) One must be committing the sin knowing what they are doing is wrong. A person cannot get into Heaven with mortal sins on their soul. Of course ANY sin can be forgiven - Catholics believe (because Jesus taught us this) that one must go to confession to get their soul wiped clean.

All I want is for everyone to go to heaven which is why I say I don't want any harm to come to anyone's soul. The Church will not all of a sudden approve of something that is and has always been a sin. The Church exists as a hospital for sinners, not a house for saints. Jesus wants everyone with Him in heaven, but we have to accept His teachings and choose Heaven for ourselves.

Does that at least make sense even if you don't agree with it? As I said, I'm not very good at articulating my view on this.... I wish I could explain better.

Thank you for elaborating, and you comment makes sense even though I do not agree with it. (Hard to tell tone over the interwebz- so I'll just say here that I'm not being hostile)

My main problem is this, from what you said. "One must be committing the sin know that they are wrong." I contend that two people that love each other, being intimate with each other, regardless of gender, would be the most natural and right thing anyone could do in their relationship. I don't think it's wrong when I am intimate with my husband, and I doubt that my brother feels that he's doing something wrong when he is intimate with his boyfriend. It's one of those "in the eye of the beholder" situations.

Again, not attacking and not looking for you to agree. Just putting it out there that I don't know why the church feels they have the authority to label something as wrong.

I try really hard sometimes to picture how I would feel if someone told me that it was wrong for me to like men. That it was wrong and that I should be with women instead. I couldn't force myself to be gay anymore then a gay person could force themself to be straight. So why should gay people be punished for something that they have no control over?

I agree, Rye, as DH and I are incredibly pro-gay marriage. I'm a bit late to this post, and I'm not going to contribute much, but I wanted to add that growing up in our Lutheran church, I once had a pastor preach about this, saying that the bible does not label homosexuality as a sin. He said that the bible refers to "homosexual offenses" as sin, going on to list rape as an example of a homosexual offense. He said many see the word homosexuality and immediatly think sin, skipping over the fact that it's not homosexuality that is wrong but the offense that perhaps occurred back then. He also went on to preach that as our world changes, God's word changes with it. I wish I remember all that he said, and I wish I had more to contribute to this discussion, but I just thought that was an interesting perspective.

cupcakes710 · August 2011

CamilleJon:
cupcakes710:
RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:

mamaholmes2010:
My Uncle has been with his life partner for 35+ years. He was my confirmation sponsor; so I think that homosexuals should have all the same rights in faith and in life as heterosexual couples. I think it will be a VERY long time before homosexuals will be allowed to be married in the catholic faith, but I think that many churches need to revise their strict adhearance to outdated ways of thinking in order to keep church membership up. I can count on one hand the number of couples at my parish that are in my age range.

The Catholic Church will never allow gay marriage because it is harmful to the soul. Also, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit... God's law doesn't change with time. The teachings of the Catholic Church have stayed true to God for over 2000 years and will not fundamentally change.

My best friend is a lesbian and I love her to death; I also have friends who have sex before they're married. Everyone sins myself included... I know that having friends / family who do things that they shouldn't doesn't make the sins they commit ok.

Good news is God is ALWAYS willing to forgive no matter what a person does! He loves everyone!

Can you elaborate on the bolded above please. Honestly, I'm not looking to start a fight, I truly want to understand what's behind that view point.
So far I think we're doing a good job staying civil here... I hope I am too... I'm trying to be as charitable and loving as I can in my responses. This is a hard topic to not get heated about.
Of course I will try to elaborate, though admittedly, I'm not very good at it and would encourage you to go to the websites I linked to or other Catholic sites so the Church can do a better job defending herself.
The homosexual act is intrinsically disordered and it is a sin. As I said before, just like premarital sex is a sin. Mortal sins cause one to separate themselves from the love of God (though God still loves all sinners!). There are 3 conditions for something to be a mortal sin: 1. It must be a grave (serious) matter (gay marriage is) 2.) one must participate in the sin with full consent (OBVIOUSLY being raped is NOT a sin!) and 3.) One must be committing the sin knowing what they are doing is wrong. A person cannot get into Heaven with mortal sins on their soul. Of course ANY sin can be forgiven - Catholics believe (because Jesus taught us this) that one must go to confession to get their soul wiped clean.
All I want is for everyone to go to heaven which is why I say I don't want any harm to come to anyone's soul. The Church will not all of a sudden approve of something that is and has always been a sin. The Church exists as a hospital for sinners, not a house for saints. Jesus wants everyone with Him in heaven, but we have to accept His teachings and choose Heaven for ourselves.
Does that at least make sense even if you don't agree with it? As I said, I'm not very good at articulating my view on this.... I wish I could explain better.
Really? That's like me saying to you "go rent Bill Maher's movie 'Religulous' to understand where I'm coming from.".
Anytime you ask a religious, anti-gay person why they are the way they are, and why they believe in such an absurdity, their only answer will be "because the bible says so" or something equally ridiculous.

Man, I thought we were doing a good job staying civil and tolerant here... I am doing my best to explain the Church's position. Never once did I just say "because the Church says so" or "because the Bible says so" and I really don't think this belief is absurd. Many people share it, though most probably not as willing to say so publicly for fear of being attacked.

SapphireKat18 · August 2011

I debate this topic a lot with DH (he's a very conservative Baptist). I've pulled the "Would you rather DS be raised by two men who love each other, love him, and give him the best of everything or a heterosexual couple who neglects and abuse him?" He just gets annoyed when I put it like that and never gives me a straight answer. :P

cupcakes710 · August 2011

honkytonk_kid:
CamilleJon:
Anytime you ask a religious, anti-gay person why they are the way they are, and why they believe in such an absurdity, their only answer will be "because the bible says so" or something equally ridiculous.
And this thought of Jesus being just some cool dude who doesn't care what you do is absurd to me. Good parents are not the ones who are their kids' BFF, don't care what they do, who they sleep with, when they get home etc. Good parents are lovingly strict. Of course Jesus cares what you do. It doesn't mean He loves you any less, but why would he not care if you do things that are against His will, and hurt yourself or others?

Well said. I agree!

Nicole0012 · August 2011

Honestly, sometimes I picture God up in heaven, throwing his hands up in frustration as he looks down here at us trying to interpret the Bible, saying, "That's NOT what I meant!!!"

thatgirl85 · August 2011

Nicole0012:
Honestly, sometimes I picture God up in heaven, throwing his hands up in frustration as he looks down here at us trying to interpret the Bible, saying, "That's NOT what I meant!!!"

hahahaha

nursedevivo · August 2011

RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:
RyeCatcher:
cupcakes710:
thatgirl85:
chickaboo1974:

I am going to try to explain how I feel, I hope I do not hurt others' feelings and I will probably be flamed....

I think gays and lesbians should have the same rights that every American enjoys. Why in the world would they not be able to marry? I think most pepole feel that marriage is "ordained" by god- sure that might be YOUR religious or spiritual marriage- ----- however marriage is also a LEGAL contract. So why should they not be able to enter into a legal contract? And lets face it- you getting married by your pastor is both legal and spiritual- it is only legal because the government says that they are allowed to witness the legal contract. In some countries you have to go to the courthouse/registrar to obtain a LEGAL marriage and then you have your "spiritual" marriage later.

Basically I think you are entitled to believe what you want.... However I also think that YOU are NOT allowed to push those beliefs on me and force me to follow YOUR religious beliefs. This is a HUGE issue- think about it..... We need to realize that not everyone believes the same as we do and they are allowed to believe that.... IF you do not believe in gay marriage- then don't participate in one, if you don't believe in abortions rights- then don't have one. It is as simple as that.... tolerance and acceptance.

Get out of my head! That goes through my mind every time I read about someone trying to ban abortions or gay marriage.

I bet you're ok with murder being illegal. If abortion is killing a baby - and I think it is - then it should be illegal just like killing a baby out of the womb is illegal. We need to stand up for the people in this world who can't speak up for themselves.

Simply "not having an abortion" won't help babies / women hurt by abortion.

I just don't think this logic works here...

Your statement above forces me to ask about your stance when someone becomes pregnant from a violent act- ie. rape, incest, etc. Or took precautionary methods to not get pregnant due to medical reasons, but then ended up pregnant anyway.

For the record, I am pro-choice but ever since having H, the thought of it makes me ill. However, I would never take away a women's right to choose that option if it's what she felt was right for her and her family.

A baby does not deserve the death penalty for the crimes committed by the father.

Rape is something so horrible that I cannot even imagine it, but time and time again, women have said that their abortion of the baby conceived in rape hurt worse than the actual rape and just created more problems, more nightmares.

Women who allow their baby to live do not regret it, but most women who abort do.

The person in the womb is alive and deserve rights / to be protected. Why should he / she be punished for what the pervert did?

I understand that carrying a baby that the woman did not want for 9 months isn't fair to her either, but like I said, the women who do have these children are glad they did. I'm going to recommend another book: Conceived in Rape.

This is something that I have to take at face value because I don't know the source of your information. I can absolutely see how people will regret choosing an abortion, but in a situation like rape, incest, and medical reasons for not having a baby, I think you are simply choosing between two evils. One option is not better then the other, it's just the one that (at the time- maybe not later down the road) you feel is the better way to go on living as much of normal life as possible.

Can you imagine being the victim of a violent crime only to have a daily reminder of that violent act growing inside your body? If a woman chooses to keep a child that was conceived that way, I can't imagine that she would ever be able to look at that child ever, not once in his or her precious life, without seeing that violent act. What kind of life is that for the child? Is that fair?

If you were to make abortion illegal, you are condeming some children to a life of being unwanted, neglected, possibly abused. And you are handing the death penalty to a woman whose body physically can not handle having a child.

Or that child could be raised in a loving home, and live a wonderful life like I did. My birth mother did not want me, she gave birth to me, took me to a safe place and dropped me off. I don't know my birth date, I don't know any details of my birth mother. But she chose life for me. She could have easily had an abortion, because she OBVIOUSLY didn't want me. But she didn't.

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