UO - Why I am against CIO...

drea_raye · July 2011

I have a psych degree. One of the papers that I wrote was about "learned helplessness (LH)" and how it could be used to study the effect of depression medication (in mice.)

Basically with LH you teach a rat that they can press a bar to turn off a shock. Then. once they get good at that. you take away the ability to stop the shock. Eventually the rat stops trying to press the bar. Later, even if you turn the bar back on the rat won't try to stop the shocks. (This is also called extinction in operent conditioning.)

If you give the rat depression meds it will try to bar press again.

CIO = Extinction = brain response similar to depression...

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Once the child is actively crying simply to avoid going to sleep/ is old enough to be reasoned with/ etc it is a different scenario...

Scout05 · July 2011

So, are you against CIO completely, or CIO before it is age appropriate? (That's what I'm getting from the last sentence, but I could be wrong.) I'm with you on the latter, but not so much on the former.

Personally, I would not attempt sleep training before she is six months, at the very, very, very earliest. And even then, I don't plan on it unless she seriously regresses from where we are right now. That's my comfort level and my call as her mother.

But I have a kid who sleeps at night. Not all kids do, and I don't know that parents are wrong for seeking methods to help them sleep better. As long as the child is old enough that sleep training is appropriate. I have friends who are dealing with some serious sleep battles, and their children are approaching their first birthdays. I wouldn't blame them for anything they need to try at this point, an entire year of almost no sleep is an extreme situation, and something needs to change - for the sake of the children as much as the parents.

ilovemygirls · July 2011

That's nice & all, but I see you have one four month old child I don't know what your sleep situation is with him, but with my first, I was so severely sleep deprived by the time she was close to a year it was affecting my entire family. My oldest was an extremely 'needy' baby from the start- constant nurser & for long nursing sessions (45+minutes), couldn't be put down, etc.- you name it. While it was tiring, it wasn't really an issue for me for the first 4ish months because she was a newborn and that was what she needed. When she was over 6mo and I wasn't getting much more than a 2-3 hour stretch of sleep at a time, then it started getting harder. Plus she wasn't a napper either- she would catnap here & there, but that was it. She was a really tiny kid, so I didn't feel ready to try to take away nighttime nursing but once we were hitting 10+mos with still no big changes, I ended up doing CIO. Best thing I ever did for me, for her & for our family.

Some people can live with being woken up constantly until their kid is a toddler. Kudos to them, I'm not one of them. Long term sleep deprivation is no joke, and sometimes you do things out of necessity. Oh and btw, you can't "reason" with an older infant/toddler re: sleeping (or anything else). If anything, it would be 10x harder when they're older because then they have a very distinct opinion on the matter. I didn't like doing CIO, but for my family, it was the best option.

drea_raye · July 2011

J is up every two hours... also does the sleeping next to me thing...so I know I don't have the same level of sleep deprivation as some parents...

I can see it being fine at a certain age, but I would disagree with most of the ages given... at 6 months (or 10) you are still just leaving baby to figure out how to get to sleep on their own, and denying them parental help.

I also get the impression that a lot of people do it without actually reading up on it. They have heard they need to let baby CIO, but there is a certain amount of checking in and so on. Even Ferber (although I haven't read it, so I am going by what others said) only advocates CIO as a last resort.

I will say that I stay out of sleep training and CIO posts... and leave people to the decision they made.

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And fussing for a bit is not the same as crying for 40 mins... (or 5)

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carinamarie77 · July 2011

Oh, FFS. If I ignored my baby's cries all day long and didn't change his diaper or feed him or picked him when he cried all day long for an extended period of time, yes, he would stop crying for things. He would be depressed and stop trying.

But CIO so he can soothe himself to sleep? CIO so I am not nursing every 45 minutes at night and spending an average of 5 HOURS to get him down? He'll survive. In fact, since we've Ferbered LO, he's rolled over, taken longer naps and is happier. He's more attentive during the day and it took 4 nights for him to get it. Now he goes right to sleep with no crying at all.

Your degree doesn't mean fvck-all when there are a many professional, scientific studies that validate CIO for bedtimes. I'm supposed to buy your argument because you wrote a term paper on learned helplessness which, btw, CIO doesn't teach?

Some parents need to turn to CIO to get some sleep and these posts only serve to make them feel guilty about something that they absolutely should not feel guilty about.

I got ranty, sorry, but, lordamercy, this horse is DED.

erbear · July 2011

Guess what? I took Psych 101 too (and have a degree in Behavioral Neuroscience...) and we did CIO with our first daughter. She sleeps great, is attached to me, normal social development, and has not learned helpless behaviors. In fact, she often asks to go to bed for naps and at night. This post is asinine.

laurakaz13 · July 2011

erbear:
Guess what? I took Psych 101 too (and have a degree in Behavioral Neuroscience...) and we did CIO with our first daughter. She sleeps great, is attached to me, normal social development, and has not learned helpless behaviors. In fact, she often asks to go to bed for naps and at night. This post is asinine.

Thank you! I agree. I only have one 2 1/2 month old child. She sleeps like a champ (6+ hours at a time, with only 1 night feeding).

If she regresses, I will do minor CIO with her when it is age-appropriate. I hate it when people post that "clearly no one reads up on it" if they disagree with something other mothers do. Are you kidding me? I've read around 4 different sleep training books and talked to various pediatricians about it. I will have a good sleeper. It is very important to our family.

drea_raye · July 2011

erbear:
Guess what? I took Psych 101 too (and have a degree in Behavioral Neuroscience...) and we did CIO with our first daughter. She sleeps great, is attached to me, normal social development, and has not learned helpless behaviors. In fact, she often asks to go to bed for naps and at night. This post is asinine.

Just curious how old she was? I really think that is a key point to my argument.

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And I didn't say it doesn't work, just why I personally have an issue with it.

brittonlin · July 2011

Baby and mother pre-CIO = tired/cranky/depressed/not able to function

Baby and mother post-CIO = rested/happy/interactive/able to function

Fact. And FWIW (nothing in my opinion) A. I was a psych minor and B. mices do not equal humans.. I'm also a lawyer and this kind of information is too unreliable in a court of law. For a reason.

Edited to add: Just my opinion. I do respect yours OP. What works for one family, doesn't always for another.

erbear · July 2011

drea_raye:
erbear:
Guess what? I took Psych 101 too (and have a degree in Behavioral Neuroscience...) and we did CIO with our first daughter. She sleeps great, is attached to me, normal social development, and has not learned helpless behaviors. In fact, she often asks to go to bed for naps and at night. This post is asinine.
Just curious how old she was? I really think that is a key point to my argument.
---
And I didn't say it doesn't work, just why I personally have an issue with it.

6 months maybe? It was such a minor blip that I don't even remember. Your post is clearly aiming to frighten new moms who don't know any better into thinking that CIO is cruel and will scar their kids for life and that's just not fair (or true).

drea_raye · July 2011

laurakaz13:
erbear:
Guess what? I took Psych 101 too (and have a degree in Behavioral Neuroscience...) and we did CIO with our first daughter. She sleeps great, is attached to me, normal social development, and has not learned helpless behaviors. In fact, she often asks to go to bed for naps and at night. This post is asinine.

Thank you! I agree. I only have one 2 1/2 month old child. She sleeps like a champ (6+ hours at a time, with only 1 night feeding).

If she regresses, I will do minor CIO with her when it is age-appropriate. I hate it when people post that "clearly no one reads up on it" if they disagree with something other mothers do. Are you kidding me? I've read around 4 different sleep training books and talked to various pediatricians about it. I will have a good sleeper. It is very important to our family.

I said I get the impression that a lot of people don't.

meaganjoelle1 · July 2011

erbear:
drea_raye:
erbear:
Guess what? I took Psych 101 too (and have a degree in Behavioral Neuroscience...) and we did CIO with our first daughter. She sleeps great, is attached to me, normal social development, and has not learned helpless behaviors. In fact, she often asks to go to bed for naps and at night. This post is asinine.
Just curious how old she was? I really think that is a key point to my argument.
---
And I didn't say it doesn't work, just why I personally have an issue with it.
6 months maybe? It was such a minor blip that I don't even remember. Your post is clearly aiming to frighten new moms who don't know any better into thinking that CIO is cruel and will scar their kids for life and that's just not fair (or true).

I don't get this vibe from her at all. She simply gave her two cents on the situation. I don't know why people get all butt hurt over the whole situation on both sides, sometimes it seems like CIO= attack mode. Most of the issue with it is the age (like anything below four months) or leaving them for ridiculous amounts of time to CIO.

Op I think you make some valid points, I don't CIO but we did look into Ferber just to see what it was all about. One of the first things it says is that it is for when your baby is emotionally ready.

ETA: spelling corrections

AggieBeth06 · July 2011

Sleep deprivation (parental) is no reason to CIO. I am very firmly against it unless it's a last resort or they're old enough to understand.

The Baby Whisperer is a great approach. There is crying, but LO is never abandoned. You don't leave them while they're trying to figure it out.

In our experience, some crying is necessary because change is hard. But many sleep issues are better solved with routine changes and adjustments for developmental milestones.

aktemple · July 2011

What age is old enough to be reasoned with?

Firedancer1013 · July 2011

aktemple:
What age is old enough to be reasoned with?

30? I'd say between 28 and 30. I still can't be reasoned with sometimes, and I'll be 28 in a month. Lol

aktemple · July 2011

Firedancer1013:
aktemple:
What age is old enough to be reasoned with?
30? I'd say between 28 and 30. I still can't be reasoned with sometimes, and I'll be 28 in a month. Lol

Lol. I'm 26 and my parents would say I still can't be reasoned with

To the OP-

My first response when reading this was, "my child is not a rat and my life isn't your term paper so...." Life is so much more complicated than a science project. Before becoming a parent I use to have a whole list of things I would never do, things I judged other parents for. I judged on things big and small. Since becoming a parent to a very needy and spirited child I have changed my mind about a lot. I have a terrible sleeper. Actually, she's not a terrible sleeper as much as she takes forever to go to bed. My only saving grace is that once she's down she will sleep for 8-11 hours. There are so many times when I'm on my 2nd hour of rocking her that I just want to let her CIO. I don't (yet), but I can see how others will resort to this.

My point----I'm glad that you haven't had to and don't want to use CIO as a sleep training method, but I wonder how you would feel if after an extended period of time getting no more than 2 hours of sleep after trying every method out there. You may still not do CIO. That's your choice as a parent just as it's my choice as a parent to do what I feel is in the best interest of my family.

drea_raye · July 2011

Firedancer1013:
aktemple:
What age is old enough to be reasoned with?
30? I'd say between 28 and 30. I still can't be reasoned with sometimes, and I'll be 28 in a month. Lol

Lol...

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Yeah, I wasn't trying to frighten, and it was more of a reaction to the "only cried fro 40 mins then 30 the next night..." since they don't sound like they did the reading, rather that they are letting baby cry until they wear out. Plus, this is 3-6, we are none of us brand new moms at this point, maybe if I stuck this in July 2011, or the third tri board...

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I will say I think part of my reaction too comes from J being nowhere near ready for sleep training, granted he was 4 weeks early, and will only be 5 months next week... It is true that I have never put a 6 (or 10 or 14) month old to bed. When I get to that point you can make me eat my words.

Wufroggy79 · July 2011

I'm not a CIO fan either, but I'm also mom to a baby that has STTN every single night since seven weeks. I feel like that's probably easier for me to say no CIO then, so I don't judge, within reason, folks that want to try it. I think if they do, they really should read the Ferber book. I've heard there is a lot more to it.

aktemple · July 2011

drea_raye:
Firedancer1013:
aktemple:
What age is old enough to be reasoned with?
30? I'd say between 28 and 30. I still can't be reasoned with sometimes, and I'll be 28 in a month. Lol
Lol...
---
Yeah, I wasn't trying to frighten, and it was more of a reaction to the "only cried fro 40 mins then 30 the next night..." since they don't sound like they did the reading, rather that they are letting baby cry until they wear out. Plus, this is 3-6, we are none of us brand new moms at this point, maybe if I stuck this in July 2011, or the third tri board...
---
I will say I think part of my reaction too comes from J being nowhere near ready for sleep training, granted he was 4 weeks early, and will only be 5 months next week... It is true that I have never put a 6 (or 10 or 14) month old to bed. When I get to that point you can make me eat my words.

I totally forgot to address this part. I read post like this on here and I always think, what books are they reading? That's not what Ferbers mean with CIO. We shouldn't call that CIO but rather Cry to you pass out

I know what you mean about knowing your kid isn't ready. Ava's not ready, I'm not ready. Totally off topic- I'm loving his sunglasses

drea_raye · July 2011

aktemple:
I know what you mean about knowing your kid isn't ready. Ava's not ready, I'm not ready. Totally off topic- I'm loving his sunglasses

Thanks! Baby Banz!

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I also forgot to say... I know mice aren't people. And that, no, not all kids will have lifetime effects of CIO... but that worry is why I don't want/ intend to do it... someday I will learn to be more clear from the start.

wife1014 · July 2011

I love lurking on other boards. This whole post deserves a big Confused

Aviee · July 2011

I'm not going to do CIO for the fact that I can't force myself to make DD be sad lol She's going to end up being spoiled to no end, I can see it now, but I for some reason don't mind losing sleep anymore. She's still up every 2 hours every night, still takes little naps all day and is very high energy and I don't see that changing.

One big reason that I won't do it isn't due to emotional toll on her, but because I feel that it's not her fault that she's in this world and I want her to always have what she NEEDS (usually always food or comfort) at any hour. When she's a bit bigger, I'll hope and pray that she doesn't start crying for things she wants, because that's when I'll lose my patience lol

babyhardebeck · July 2011

ilovemygirls:

That's nice & all, but I see you have one four month old child I don't know what your sleep situation is with him, but with my first, I was so severely sleep deprived by the time she was close to a year it was affecting my entire family. My oldest was an extremely 'needy' baby from the start- constant nurser & for long nursing sessions (45+minutes), couldn't be put down, etc.- you name it. While it was tiring, it wasn't really an issue for me for the first 4ish months because she was a newborn and that was what she needed. When she was over 6mo and I wasn't getting much more than a 2-3 hour stretch of sleep at a time, then it started getting harder. Plus she wasn't a napper either- she would catnap here & there, but that was it. She was a really tiny kid, so I didn't feel ready to try to take away nighttime nursing but once we were hitting 10+mos with still no big changes, I ended up doing CIO. Best thing I ever did for me, for her & for our family.

Some people can live with being woken up constantly until their kid is a toddler. Kudos to them, I'm not one of them. Long term sleep deprivation is no joke, and sometimes you do things out of necessity. Oh and btw, you can't "reason" with an older infant/toddler re: sleeping (or anything else). If anything, it would be 10x harder when they're older because then they have a very distinct opinion on the matter. I didn't like doing CIO, but for my family, it was the best option.

Do you co-sleep? My baby nurses constantly at night but i sleep.

iris427 · July 2011

This post is so ridiculous. I would hope your education is giving you a little bit more critical thinking skills than this.

Also I am LOL at the idea of trying to get your child to STTN by reasoning with them.

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