my flameworthy (offensive?) post of the day...

GBCK · June 2011

further evidience that I"m right, the Amish are just a cult (with the phsyical and sexual abuse issues of most cults) with better PR than most other cults.

https://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/amish-sexter-buggy-sex-549028 ---Amish Sexter Sought Buggy Sex With Girl, 12--Man, 21, was busted as he arrived for illicit rendezvous

He thought she was 13 though, so that makes it all OK in his mind. *insert stabby emoticon here*

PubStar09 · June 2011

So one guy gets busted for "sexting" a minor, and the entire religion is a cult?

How do you feel about the Catholic Church?

ETA: The more I think about this, the more it pisses me off. You're ridiculous. And that's the nicest thing I can think of to say.

Kate621 · June 2011

You're right. That is offensive.

GBCK · June 2011

no, they're a cult for other reasons--including the fact that they use shunning as a way of controlling people w/ doubts.

This just happens to solidify my POV.

Considering how the group treats female members, I don't really consider this an anomaly--it's only newsworthy because it's sexual abuse that 1-got busted and 2-involves 'an English'

macy42 · June 2011

I could not disagree more. My father, who is a chiropractor, works with hundreds of amish people. He and my mother have been invited into their homes and families. My uncle, a businessman, also works with tons of Amish men. My grandfather worked for Amish families as a "personal taxi". Needless to say more, it's evident that your view on an entire community of people is very wrong and it's rather ignorant of you to assume that they are all heinous individuals. Unfortunately, closed minded and ignorant people such as yourself give others a bad name and rap.

GBCK · June 2011

I know I'm probalby 'digging myself deeper', but I don't understand how they have the reputation of a peaceful subcommunity considering the sexism that is a foundation of the culture and sexual abuses that seem relatively common (accurate numbers are hard to get, of course)

https://aboutamish.blogspot.com/2010/09/sexual-abuse-among-amish_08.html

macy42 · June 2011

I should add that I don't think that what that particular Amish man was not awful but I think you're way off base speaking on behalf of the whole community.

macy42 · June 2011

GBCK:
I know I'm probalby 'digging myself deeper', but I don't understand how they have the reputation of a peaceful subcommunity considering the sexism that is a foundation of the culture and sexual abuses that seem relatively common (accurate numbers are hard to get, of course)
https://aboutamish.blogspot.com/2010/09/sexual-abuse-among-amish_08.html

I'm sure that this woman is not elaborating on her experience in her Amish community but it's not how they all live. Just like Christians and other religions, they are people who are more extreme and ludacris and ruin the name of the whole religion.

PubStar09 · June 2011

GBCK:
I know I'm probalby 'digging myself deeper', but I don't understand how they have the reputation of a peaceful subcommunity considering the sexism that is a foundation of the culture and sexual abuses that seem relatively common (accurate numbers are hard to get, of course)
https://aboutamish.blogspot.com/2010/09/sexual-abuse-among-amish_08.html

You're quoting a blog?

So I guess because a few communities have a problem with sexual abuse, every single Amish man must be a raper.

Let's go back to the Catholic Church. How many priests have been accused of molestation? So every male in the church must also be an abuser by that logic.

Makes sense to me!

GBCK · June 2011

I think the culture is based on sexism--that's rather hard to argue AGAINST given the belief system.

I think sexual abuse is rampant--that's hard/impossible to get accurate numbers on but there are more than enough experts who agree with me.

I think the news-article I posted is an example of those 2 things come together.

I'm absoutely sure there are very nice, decent Amish people--I've met quite a few actually. I just find the fact that they are perceived to be peaceful and alla round wonderful to be astounding.

Kate621 · June 2011

GBCK:

I know I'm probalby 'digging myself deeper', but I don't understand how they have the reputation of a peaceful subcommunity considering the sexism that is a foundation of the culture and sexual abuses that seem relatively common (accurate numbers are hard to get, of course)

https://aboutamish.blogspot.com/2010/09/sexual-abuse-among-amish_08.html

Do you personally know anyone who is Amish or is your opinion based solely on what you have read on the internet?

serenavanderwoodson · June 2011

Not only are they all pervs, they abuse the tax dollars too.

GBCK · June 2011

PubStar09:
GBCK:
I know I'm probalby 'digging myself deeper', but I don't understand how they have the reputation of a peaceful subcommunity considering the sexism that is a foundation of the culture and sexual abuses that seem relatively common (accurate numbers are hard to get, of course)
https://aboutamish.blogspot.com/2010/09/sexual-abuse-among-amish_08.html

You're quoting a blog?
So I guess because a few communities have a problem with sexual abuse, every single Amish man must be a raper.
Let's go back to the Catholic Church. How many priests have been accused of molestation? So every male in the church must also be an abuser by that logic.
Makes sense to me!

I"m quoting one opinion because it's well stated.

The percentage of pedophiles in the catholic church's ministry is comparable to the percentage of pedophiles in other similar capacities (protestant ministers, boy scout leaders, coaches, etc)--the issue within the catholic church was, IMO, the cover up rather than the abuse.

But, if you'll read what I"m posting, sexism is a part of the basis of the Amish community. Unless you'd dispute that?

There's some evidence that sexual predation is more common than in other comprable groups because of the lack of sexual education of women/children, the sexism of the community, the focus on repentance that prevents the community from shielding children from predators, and the lack of prosecution of guilty individuals.

I thnk that makes it a group to raise eyebrows at. And yet heaven forbid ANYONE ever say anything against the Amish, because they've been stereotyped as a gentle and misunderstood people.

macy42 · June 2011

GBCK:
I think the culture is based on sexism--that's rather hard to argue AGAINST given the belief system.
I think sexual abuse is rampant--that's hard/impossible to get accurate numbers on but there are more than enough experts who agree with me.
I think the news-article I posted is an example of those 2 things come together.

I'm absoutely sure there are very nice, decent Amish people--I've met quite a few actually. I just find the fact that they are perceived to be peaceful and alla round wonderful to be astounding.

History shows that all of our ancestories were sexists at one time. Women in history were only good for cooking, cleaning, and raising children, much like how the Amish live. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It's the way they live, and they, like all of us, have a choice to live within or without the sect.

PubStar09 · June 2011

How do you feel about the Muslim religion? Are they a cult for their women being submissive?

Oh, also, they're all terrorists, right?

PubStar09 · June 2011

macy42:
History shows that all of our ancestories were sexists at one time. Women in history were only good for cooking, cleaning, and raising children, much like how the Amish live. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It's the way they live, and they, like all of us, have a choice to live within or without the sect.

Yes

doyous&idos · June 2011

Am I the only one who didn't know the Amish could use cell phones?

GBCK · June 2011

macy42:
GBCK:
I think the culture is based on sexism--that's rather hard to argue AGAINST given the belief system.
I think sexual abuse is rampant--that's hard/impossible to get accurate numbers on but there are more than enough experts who agree with me.
I think the news-article I posted is an example of those 2 things come together.

I'm absoutely sure there are very nice, decent Amish people--I've met quite a few actually. I just find the fact that they are perceived to be peaceful and alla round wonderful to be astounding.
History shows that all of our ancestories were sexists at one time. Women in history were only good for cooking, cleaning, and raising children, much like how the Amish live. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It's the way they live, and they, like all of us, have a choice to live within or without the sect.

We're less than 100 years from that within our own culture...historically, White American culture isn't something to aspire to.

And the 'choice' is somewhat relative...when you've not gotten any schooling past grade 8 and can't fit into mainstream society and are turning your back on your entire family (never to be spoken of again by everyone you love), there is a 'choice', but it's not exactly a free one.

macy42 · June 2011

serenavanderwoodson:
Not only are they all pervs, they abuse the tax dollars too.

Whoa. I hope you don't use your closemindness with all of your students. Or encourage them to make judgements on other groups of people. That would really be a shame.

Tax dollars... they abuse those too? How about all the other "normal" American people who live on welfare? Please don't go there.

caffinated_tulip · June 2011

The Amish are like any other insular fundamentalist sec, dangerous in their own way. That sort of thinking, the rejection of all that is secular and modern, the refusal to interact of anyone who thinks or acts differently than you is dangerous. That sort of community breeds all kinds of problems, child abuse is only one of them.

That said, I've lived in or near Amish country all my life and I've never had any reason to think of them as anything but good decent people. There are pedophiles and abusers in regular society as well, the Amish are no different.

macy42 · June 2011

doyous&idos:
Am I the only one who didn't know the Amish could use cell phones?

That will depend on the sect. Some are more modern than others.

PubStar09 · June 2011

doyous&idos:
Am I the only one who didn't know the Amish could use cell phones?

They've started getting more lax on the cell phone rule because it's a good tool for business. It's easier for them to get and keep business if they have a way to communicate easier than the community phone, if they even had one to start with.

Kate621 · June 2011

Of course ALL Amish people are only educated until grade 8. Just like all Muslims are terrorists and all blondes are dumb. What was the point of this post? Did you think people would agree with you? This is an opinion you should have kept to yourself.

macy42 · June 2011

caffinated_tulip:
The Amish are like any other insular fundamentalist sec, dangerous in their own way. That sort of thinking, the rejection of all that is secular and modern, the refusal to interact of anyone who thinks or acts differently than you is dangerous. That sort of community breeds all kinds of problems, child abuse is only one of them.
That said, I've lived in or near Amish country all my life and I've never had any reason to think of them as anything but good decent people. There are pedophiles and abusers in regular society as well, the Amish are no different.

Well stated.

macy42 · June 2011

Kate621:
Of course ALL Amish people are only educated until grade 8. Just like all Muslims are terrorists and all blondes are dumb. What was the point of this post? Did you think people would agree with you? This is an opinion you should have kept to yourself.

Yes Yes

Yeah, I think you could argue until you're blue in the face but none of us are going to change our mind. Most of us, are actually able to say that we have lived near an Amish community and know how they live and that they are, generally, a peaceful community.

GBCK · June 2011

Kate621:
Of course ALL Amish people are only educated until grade 8. Just like all Muslims are terrorists and all blondes are dumb. What was the point of this post? Did you think people would agree with you? This is an opinion you should have kept to yourself.

Where are you getting this "all" business? I could write 'some' or 'a certain percentage' in front of EVERY post, but using a 'for example' shouldn't be assumed to say 'all'.

All in all, I'll say that this post kinda proved my point though...I linked to a sensational news story said, in so many words, that I didn't like the Amish culture and I thought it was a 'cult' (which is a vauge term) and that it lent itself to serious sexual issues...but that it has great PR because the stereotype of the Amish is very positive....

and promptly everyone got all up in arms that how dare I dislike the Amish. I must of course be ill informed and *insert mistaken assumptions about my opinion and my background here*.

I'm not going around burning churches. I'm not saying that everyone in the group is evil. I"m saying that the very nature of the group is distasteful to me. Rather like the nature of Scientology is distasteful to me. Rather like certain fundamentalist groups (the Pearls, for example) are distasteful to me.

*BlackSheep* · June 2011

GBCK~ they (the media) always show the bad things for good people. Just like when they (the media) show all the so-called bad things that the military do and they never show all the bood things.

GBCK · June 2011

*BlackSheep*:
GBCK~ they (the media) always show the bad things for good people. Just like when they (the media) show all the so-called bad things that the military do and they never show all the bood things.

I wonder that...I'm inclined to think that with some groups, they show the good more/at least as much as the bad.

Because challenging sterotypes doesn't' sell papers nearly as much as re-enforcing sterotypes does.

Kate621 · June 2011

When you use language like "They are just a cult" it insinuates that you are making assumptions about the group as a whole. I think anyone who makes broad generalizations about any group of people is an idiot. And you have made no mention of the amazing bread or furniture they make. Does that not count for anything? Forgive me, because I am a little drunk, but you just came off as an ignorant twat.

leslie13510 · June 2011

Kate621:

When you use language like "They are just a cult" it insinuates that you are making assumptions about the group as a whole. I think anyone who makes broad generalizations about any group of people is an idiot. And you have made no mention of the amazing bread or furniture they make. Does that not count for anything? Forgive me, because I am a little drunk, but you just came off as an ignorant twat.

Uh, how drunk are you? FTR, I'm not making a judgment one way or another against the Amish. I don't know any personally, I've never had any interaction with their communties, I know nothing other than what I read in the news, and I refuse to make a judgment on an entire group based on that. But the bread and furniture thing has me scratching my head and wanting to laugh. I'm picturing someone defending a sexual predator in a courtroom and arguing, "But he makes delicious bread and well crafted furniture. Doesn't that count for anything!" I'm not sure when someone's handiness became an example of their moral values. ::scratches head again::

Kate621 · June 2011

leslie13510:
Kate621:

When you use language like "They are just a cult" it insinuates that you are making assumptions about the group as a whole. I think anyone who makes broad generalizations about any group of people is an idiot. And you have made no mention of the amazing bread or furniture they make. Does that not count for anything? Forgive me, because I am a little drunk, but you just came off as an ignorant twat.

Uh, how drunk are you? FTR, I'm not making a judgment one way or another against the Amish. I don't know any personally, I've never had any interaction with their communties, I know nothing other than what I read in the news, and I refuse to make a judgment on an entire group based on that. But the bread and furniture thing has me scratching my head and wanting to laugh. I'm picturing someone defending a sexual predator in a courtroom and arguing, "But he makes delicious bread and well crafted furniture. Doesn't that count for anything!" I'm not sure when someone's handiness became an example of their moral values. ::scratches head again::

Bread and furniture was sarcasm And I've had 2 beers. 2 Strawberry Daquiris. It has been a perfect day.

melodylb · June 2011

leslie13510:
Kate621:

When you use language like "They are just a cult" it insinuates that you are making assumptions about the group as a whole. I think anyone who makes broad generalizations about any group of people is an idiot. And you have made no mention of the amazing bread or furniture they make. Does that not count for anything? Forgive me, because I am a little drunk, but you just came off as an ignorant twat.

Uh, how drunk are you? FTR, I'm not making a judgment one way or another against the Amish. I don't know any personally, I've never had any interaction with their communties, I know nothing other than what I read in the news, and I refuse to make a judgment on an entire group based on that. But the bread and furniture thing has me scratching my head and wanting to laugh. I'm picturing someone defending a sexual predator in a courtroom and arguing, "But he makes delicious bread and well crafted furniture. Doesn't that count for anything!" I'm not sure when someone's handiness became an example of their moral values. ::scratches head again::

I got a little confused by the bread and furniture comment too.. then I got distracted thinking about the Amish bread I buy by my parents lake property. mmmm delish.

leslie13510 · June 2011

Kate621:
leslie13510:
Kate621:

When you use language like "They are just a cult" it insinuates that you are making assumptions about the group as a whole. I think anyone who makes broad generalizations about any group of people is an idiot. And you have made no mention of the amazing bread or furniture they make. Does that not count for anything? Forgive me, because I am a little drunk, but you just came off as an ignorant twat.

Uh, how drunk are you? FTR, I'm not making a judgment one way or another against the Amish. I don't know any personally, I've never had any interaction with their communties, I know nothing other than what I read in the news, and I refuse to make a judgment on an entire group based on that. But the bread and furniture thing has me scratching my head and wanting to laugh. I'm picturing someone defending a sexual predator in a courtroom and arguing, "But he makes delicious bread and well crafted furniture. Doesn't that count for anything!" I'm not sure when someone's handiness became an example of their moral values. ::scratches head again::

Bread and furniture was sarcasm And I've had 2 beers. 2 Strawberry Daquiris. It has been a perfect day.

I was hoping it was sarcasm, but then you said you were drunk and I wasn't sure. It did give me a good little laugh though at least.

GBCK · June 2011

Kate621:
When you use language like "They are just a cult" it insinuates that you are making assumptions about the group as a whole. I think anyone who makes broad generalizations about any group of people is an idiot. And you have made no mention of the amazing bread or furniture they make. Does that not count for anything? Forgive me, because I am a little drunk, but you just came off as an ignorant twat.

Well, if it makes you (or me) feel better, you came off as defensive and buying into stereotypes.

I think they fit several of the definitions of 'a cult', which (since I don't have a soc. book handy, I'm snagging part of from Wikipedia):

People are put in physical or emotionally distressing situations; (check)
Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;(eh, vauge)
They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader or group; (probably not)
They get a new identity based on the group;(check)
They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled (check)

Or

: Langone states that: "Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders."^[53] A similar definition is given by Louis Jolyon West: "A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc.) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community."^[54]
In each, the focus tends to be on the specific tactics of conversion, the negative impact on individual members, and the difficulty in leaving once indoctrination has occurred.

I wasn't using 'cult' as a touchstone word to be argumentative, I'm using it as a real term here.

(and I do say this as someone whose faith is more or less 'anabaptist'. I'm from this theological tradition as well)

panda10 · June 2011

GBCK:
Kate621:

When you use language like "They are just a cult" it insinuates that you are making assumptions about the group as a whole. I think anyone who makes broad generalizations about any group of people is an idiot. And you have made no mention of the amazing bread or furniture they make. Does that not count for anything? Forgive me, because I am a little drunk, but you just came off as an ignorant twat.

Well, if it makes you (or me) feel better, you came off as defensive and buying into stereotypes.

I think they fit several of the definitions of 'a cult', which (since I don't have a soc. book handy, I'm snagging part of from Wikipedia):

People are put in physical or emotionally distressing situations; (check)

Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;(eh, vauge)

They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader or group; (probably not)

They get a new identity based on the group;(check)

They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled (check)
Or
: Langone states that: "Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders."^[53] A similar definition is given by Louis Jolyon West: "A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc.) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community."^[54]
In each, the focus tends to be on the specific tactics of conversion, the negative impact on individual members, and the difficulty in leaving once indoctrination has occurred.

I wasn't using 'cult' as a touchstone word to be argumentative, I'm using it as a real term here.

(and I do say this as someone whose faith is more or less 'anabaptist'. I'm from this theological tradition as well)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I don't think you're getting anywhere with your cult arguement. I know a lot of Amish and Menonites and speaking for the ones I know and talk to, they love their life and I honestly envy their simplistic lifestyle some days.

greenclown · June 2011

So you read one news story about one person who did something wrong, and that prompts you to declare that the Amish are a cult? Good to know.

JMC11511 · June 2011

doyous&idos:
Am I the only one who didn't know the Amish could use cell phones?

RIGHT?!?!?! Weird.

NavyClan · June 2011

greenclown:
So you read one news story about one person who did something wrong, and that prompts you to declare that the Amish are a cult? Good to know.

One could argue that any religious group is a cult(an opinion I'm fully on board with) Cases like this of sexual abuse only add to that argument. I don't think she was saying "Now after reading this I think they're a CULT!!!" rather, that now she thinks they're a cult just like the others. ::shrug::

JMC11511 · June 2011

Also, I thought this board was about babies?

NavyClan · June 2011

mrscarter09:
Also, I thought this board was about babies?

lol, we talk about a lot here. Just about anything goes. That's why we're the most awesome Stick out tongue

greenclown · June 2011

NavyClan:
greenclown:
So you read one news story about one person who did something wrong, and that prompts you to declare that the Amish are a cult? Good to know.
One could argue that any religious group is a cult(an opinion I'm fully on board with) Cases like this of sexual abuse only add to that argument. I don't think she was saying "Now after reading this I think they're a CULT!!!" rather, that now she thinks they're a cult just like the others. ::shrug::

Well, in that case, what she said wasn't offensive at all.

/eyeroll

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