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MsPurple24
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Haley Beth ~ March 3rd, 2011
Re: Naps and CIO at one month
MsPurple24
member
The Husband and I are afraid that we're creating a monster. I know that they say that newborns can't be spoiled, and they need you to respond to their crying so they know they're safe, etc.
Well, Haley won't nap unless we're holding her- she's a mover, and it takes a great deal of bouncing, walking, and rocking to get her to go to sleep. Then, if we try to put her down, she'll wake up. I've tried swaddling her and using the 5 S's from HBOTB, since those work pretty well at night, but they still don't solve the problem of getting her to stay asleep once I put her down. Basically, in order to fall asleep, she has to be either swaddled or in the Moby, and I have to be bouncing on the exercise ball. As soon as I stop bouncing or try to set her down, it's all over. She ends up napping on me throughout the day, and that's causing a number of problems.
So my question is this- how early is too early to try CIO? I'm reading On Becoming Babywise upon a friend's recommendation, and the author basically says that babies can be spoiled and that teaching your baby to only fall asleep in a sling, bouncing for hours, etc., you're setting yourself up for a fussy baby who won't be able to sleep without that. We feel like that's exactly the mistake we're making. He recommends putting her down when we see that she's tired and letting her CIO for as long as 15-20 minutes, and that she'll learn to fall asleep on her own.
I like some of the theories of AP, but I'm not a die-hard. I'm seriously considering CIO for naptime, but I don't know if I'll be able to handle it. Her crying hits me pretty hard.
Sorry this got so long! TIA for your opinions!
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Haley Beth ~ March 3rd, 2011
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Re: Naps and CIO at one month
I'm a believer in CIO for naps and night time...but one month is too young in my opinion. I don't believe in sleep training (for naps or bedtime) until 4 months.
Some people get lucky and their kids sleep great off the bat, but for the most part itty bitty babies need constant contact to sleep.
I know it's hard to hear, but really I'm being serious (and I hope it doesn't come across rude) this phase will pass, it seems tough now, but enjoy it. She will never be this little again, she will never need you like this again, the dishes, laundry, house, etc can all wait. Let her sleep on you and try hard to enjoy it. In a few short months she won't want to snuggle you at all.
I agree with Kelly. One month is too young and many babies need physical touch to sleep well during the day. Four weeks ago she was feeling the constant pressure of your body on her skin 24/7 and it takes a while to get used to less contact.
Whatever needs doing can wait. Well other than potty breaks.
When DS was small like that I could go while still nursing him sometimes. In an emergency.
This part passes and it passes quickly.
I think she's too young to CIO...that being said, Q always needed a good scream before he'd fall asleep (but I knew it would be brief and he'd fall right asleep)
I agree too that I'd love if he'd sleep on me again every once in a while now. That time seems like the blink of an eye now.
OK, I think that I agree with you guys, but I wanted to ask... the book recommends starting at 7 days!! There's no way we could have done that.
I do love snuggling her and I love it when she naps on me. But I literally can't go to the bathroom or eat lunch, and that's becoming a problem. As long as I have her in the Moby, at least I have my hands free, so maybe I should just stick to using that. The dishes and laundry don't get done until The Husband comes home, and I'm fine with that!
Thanks for the opinions!
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Haley Beth ~ March 3rd, 2011
Ditto the PPs.
Also, Babywise/ techniques from the book have been known to cause failure to thrive. https://www.ezzo.info/Aney/aneyaap.htm
The Blog | BirthbyKellyM
I agree. I'm a Healthy Sleep Habits kind of girl myself, and I do believe that infant sleep up until about 4 months is very biological. Meaning, there isn't much you can do to make them sleep or stay asleep, and likewise you aren't going to create bad habits. DD was a great nighttime sleeper early on, terrible napper. Napped only on me, not even in the swing and only cat napped. Around 4 months we sleep trained her for naps (put her on a schedule that worked for her, were very consistent with it, etc) and it took about a month but she became and AWESOME and easy napper. DS is still not on a schedule. His colic made him develop his naps later, he's doing better but still not on a schedule or consistent routine. Sleeps well at night, though.
Naps are really hard, even for the best sleepers. But before 4 months, I think you really just have to do what they need now to help them get as much sleep as possible (because I do think sleep is super important for development in general).
Alright, I don't know who recommended this book to you but please research it before taking any of it's advice to heart. The AAP recommends parents against using "Babywise" and other Gary Ezzo material. Use of these methods have led to: dehydration, slow growth, delayed development, infant stress, low milk supply and failure to thrive. Check out ezzo.info like Kelly mentioned, or just goggle, you'll find plenty of information out there.
There are lots of varying degrees, opinions, approaches of CIO. I think the response you'll get the most is that 1 month seems to early. I followed some of the babywise techniques between 2-4 months. When I felt like I needed a break and *needed* to put the baby down and there was no one to hand the baby...I did. Don't feel guilty if thats what you need to do to stay sane.
The first 1 month, my DD would only sleep on us. In fact we even tried a co-sleeper at that point. Our saving grace was the moby. If she wasn't in her infant carseat already asleep from a drive, then she was on me in the Moby (or my poor husband who refused to wear the moby). This at least gave me two hands free (to hold the remote, wash bottles, hold a beer etc...)
To accomodate her royal highness, I slept upright on the couch, or her rocking chair, or in bed with lots of pillows propped up... with DD strapped in the moby.
Sorry... its a rough stage. The only other advice I can give, is to just keep trying different methods. They change so much at that stage... what didn't work one day, could very well work the next.
Big hugs! You're doing a great job!
Oh yeah, I completely forgot about that behavior too. My DD would do the same thing. Fuss, fuss, fuss.. get louder and louder... wanted nothing to do with a bottle or paci... and then pass out. Thats one of the reasons we knew CIO would work for us.
That seems to be the direction we're headed, so I figured we must be handling nap time wrong. But maybe it's just what she needs in order to fall asleep. It's just that night time is so much different (i.e. easier to get her to fall asleep), so I figured that I must be doing something wrong during the day.
I had no idea that there was research connecting Babywise to failure to thrive! Wow. My friend recommended this book because she has 4 kids (including twins) and it has worked for them... but maybe she didn't start using it until later. I should ask when she started.
Thanks so much! I really appreciate all the responses.
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Haley Beth ~ March 3rd, 2011
I think you'll find really strong opinions on this topic. For me personally, CIO was an absolute last resort and I never ever would have done it before 6 months. We actually talked to our pediatrician who confirmed my feeling by saying not to let him CIO prior to that age. I strongly dislike the idea that babies can be spoiled, especially at one month old which is why Babywise wasn't for me. Honestly, I have one of the worst sleepers I've ever heard of and there's nothing that could have compelled me to let him CIO at such a young age. At that age there is zero understanding of why they are being left to cry. They don't make the connection because they can't.
I guess I would just really suggest trying to find new ways to keep her asleep, try anything and everything before you let her CIO. The swing worked miracles for me, also the moby, long walks over bumpy surfaces, car rides. I know it's hard work, but that part really does get better. When it gets to be too much try to take a break. If you can get someone to hold her for just one nap a week while you shower that might be just enough to refresh you and give you the strength to keep bouncing.
I also want to say that whatever you decide, know that it's totally your decision. You have to do what is right for you and your family. Obviously Babywise wasn't right for me but that doesn't mean it's not right for you. I think I spent a lot of time worrying about what other people thought and that really inhibited my instincts when it came to helping my LO learn to sleep. I really wish I had stopped caring about people judging me because we could have solved our issues a long time ago.
That said I recommend reading The No Cry Sleep Solution, Good Night Sleep Tight and Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems. I know that's a lot of reading to do, but they all come at the sleep issues from slightly different angles and it's good to have as many tools as you can to help you get through this. Good luck to you and may your baby start taking blissfully long naps!
One more thought - I go to a mom's group every week and on the wall of every room is this quote: "Baby your babies while they're babies, so they won't have to be babied when they're not babies anymore."
Eh. I think the connection is based on *extreme* circumstances. I did a lot of research when I saw the same thing. Articles I read agreed that parents weren't feeding their children enough in some situations. There are definitely some caution statements to BW. Like if your child isn't gaining weight... you shouldn't try to put them on some schedule.
In general I think BW has some good insights... but as with all parenting methods... take what you like of them, and don't take the parts you don't like. And keep in mind the health and personality of your kid.
I just remembered one tip from the mom's group I went to when DS was tiny adn wouldn't nap (not even on me). Group leader suggested putting a tshirt I wore (with my sent on it) in his bassinet. It worked GREAT. For night time too.
I usually wore a shirt to bed, got milk all over it, and used it the next day for his bed. I tucked in it like a sheet. Swaddled for naps, lay down as gently as possible, and hope for the best. At that stage DS was napping for maybe a half an hour at a stretch (the longest naps) and as little as 15 minutes.
Have you considered using an Amby-like swing or something? I have a Arm's Reach Beautiful Dreamer that you could borrow if you'd like. Apparently the baby's own movements sort of lull them or something. What do I know... but if it's worth trying, then I'm happy to pass it along for right now.
https://www.nurturecenter.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=54
Babywise is the only book on the planet that you find says it's ok to let babies younger than a minimum of 4 months be left to cry, it's also the only book that says you should feed young babies on a schedule-allowing them to cry until the hit the next feeding time even if they are hungry. I read it, the entire thing, along with a variety of other books on sleep, development, ect and while there are things that I agree with the foundational principles of the book are crap.
I understand where you are coming from as that was exactly where I was with my first. Some of the things that helped us were, using a heating pad in the crib ( turn it on when you start her feeding and flip it off after you set her down. Think about the temp difference when she goes from your snuggly body to her sheets), also we did a lot of the pick up/put down method with him (put baby down and if they start crying pick up and calm then put down and repeat), also white noise ( you have to find what works for her and it may be far louder than you could even imagine listening to), for us it was rain for a friend it was the hair dryer. At one month I don't think her eyesight is probably developed enough for a projector to the wall but I would get one of those seahorse lovies because that can keep her entertained.
With #2 we started off from the beginning actively getting him to go down drowsy but awake. One thing that helped me, in the hospital at one point he was in the bassinet thing because the nurse had just changed him and left the room for a second, he started screaming and I was still totally numb from my epidural ( post- section) so I couldn't get to him. I timed it and he yelled for just under 2 min, which feels like forever but then he instantly stopped and fell asleep. It taught me a valuable lesson, he might need to let out a little steam but not to rush to him immediately.
Once we brought him home we did a # of things. I worked harder at the EASY method. As soon as he seemed drowsy I would put him in his crib, if his eyes instantly popped open I'd pick him up and sway him a bit and repeat. If his eyes were fluttery but he started to fuss I left him, all fussing was totally ignored and I learned that if he started out full on crying that most of the time I could leave him for a minute or two and he'd fall asleep but if he fussed and then escalated to crying I needed to go in. I also respected his sleepy cues more than i did with the first. I felt like I was always missing them with #1 so I really forced a maximum awake time and I regret it. He's a kid that doesn't need a lot of sleep and I think he would have done better with longer awake periods. Pretty early on Cooper set a schedule of awake for one hour/nap/2 hours/nap/3hrs/bedtime.
You also have to stop and think, what were her sleep and wake periods like in utero? Did she wake when you laid down and sleep while you were on the move? If so, then she's not going to instantly change that pattern simply because she's on the outside, you have to help her move toward a different pattern but gently at her age. Also since you say she's not sleeping very long in the crib, how quickly are you responding? That was my #1 mistake with kiddo #1, I was right there instantly and in retrospect he was just stirring and I think I was waking him up and then putting him back to sleep, so of course he came to expect it.
Good luck, I know I wrote a novel but with two of them I've been through both sides of the fence and learned a lot about sleep. #1 still has issues that I feel like I in part created so I understand your concern. I think CIO has it's place but if you can use some gentle methods now to help her transition and save your sanity a bit then when she's a bit older you'll both be more ready and have more success with CIO.
Ok, i have more advice, akk.
A key thing I did, while you're stuck in this stage create sleep associations that can be transferred to falling asleep in the crib. So instead of just rocking/bouncing/feeding, I made sure I was patting his back and singing the same song every.single.time because those were both things that when I put him down drowsy I could recreate. It feels a bit weird to be patting your baby on the back while you're rocking them or in the Moby but it helped a ton. Also if you get something like the seahorse hold it or put it in her arms while she eats and falls asleep. Establishing those types of routines now will get you so much farther in the long run than CIO at this age. If you have some solid fundamentals like that she'll have an easier time with CIO and fall asleep faster (IMO).
Also, I'm not saying Babywise doesn't work, in fact I think it does because you don't give the infant any other choice but to do what you are laying out for them BUT that doesn't mean it's the best thing for baby.
I completely forgot about that trick! My how forgetful I am.
One month is far too young for CIO. I wouldn't even consider it until 4-6 months. DS wasn't ready to respond to sleep training techniques until @ six months old. A friend recommended babywise to me as well. It worked for her, but it caused nothing but more heartache for me and my lo. In my opinion, it pushes CIO methods on babies who are far too young and presumes that their theories are one size fits all, when every child is different. I'm not an AP parent either, and I did not have one of those babies that sleeps easily, so I can relate to your struggles. The best advice I can give you is to hang in there, respond to the needs of your lo and follow their lead. You cannot spoil a child that young, and I know it's hard to see this now, but this phase will be brief in the grand scheme of things. DS is a great sleeper and napper now, falls asleep on his own with no crying, and I had lots of people tell me I was spoiling him when he was young. In reality, I was doing what I needed to get by until his body and brain had matured to the point where he was able to handle sleep training, which for us was around 6 months. In terms of books, I hated baby whisperer as much as I hated babywise. The Weissbluth book, Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child, was better, but ultimately the book that helped us the most was Ferber, Solving your child's sleep problems.
Good Luck.
Also, there is a big, huge difference between CIO at this age and letting the baby cry for a minute or two - like if you need to pee, or need a break for a second, or whatever. Sometimes it's necessary. Sometimes, if you have a colicy kid like my son, it's inevitable.
Just wanted to point that out because I think (especially new moms) see threads like this and think they shouldn't ever let their infant cry for a second and that's just not realistic, nor are you an evil horrible mother if you let your infant cry for a minute now and then.
Then again, I just bought DS a walker so he could cruise around our hardwood floors so I'm probably Satan in some parents eyes.
There is actually increasing evidence that the stress associated with any form of prolonged crying can be bad for infants and rewire their brain in a permanent way. And 1 month is too young. Fussing is definitely different though, a little "complaining" as my DH used to call it, rather than full blown crying and screaming is what we were able to tolerate for 15-20 minutes at that age.
However I will say that this is exactly the point when we had to get the Amby to get Elena to sleep at all without being held. I could not deal with her napping on me all day long because I could not eat, or sleep or shower with her in the Ergo. If I even sat down she woke up. I did it once a day for the most difficult nap, the late one, for a while. I'd just make that exercise time, and take a long walk.
Ditto. And also the difference between fussing, complaining, talking and CRYING.
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I think this is what I needed to hear. I was really confused when I saw that BW recommended CIO after 1 week, so I wanted to know what the norm was. Now that I see everyone recommending 4-6 months, it makes a lot more sense to me. What I need to do is let her fuss for a minute or two if needed, and see if she'll fall back asleep- I haven't even been doing that. But other than that, I'll continue to use the Moby and let her sleep on me for now.
DragonflyBride and AmyFelice- I have never heard of the Amby swing, but I just googled it. I have a borrowed swing, but she doesn't like it (at least, not yet- I'm holding out hope for the future). M, I will let you know if I decide to borrow yours- we'll try some other things first! Thank you!!
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Haley Beth ~ March 3rd, 2011
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I ready babywise when dc was 1 month old cause I was so sleep deprived etc. IT sat completely wrong with me, and I have friends that SWEAR by it.
I did like the pattern of wake, nurse, play, sleep etc.
The first 8 weeks is hard on them, their little bodies adjusting to the world etc. I would wear the baby or find a swing that works. They need to be comforted not to be put on a schedule so young.
Good luck, sounds like you've gotten some great advice !
Honestly my first thought was put down the books! You got this!!
I know its hard...but truely no book has the "answer". If they did we ALL would know about it!
My mommy gut without a doubt says a 1 month old cannot be spoiled. And (ughh so cliche) you will miss this time. Now that doesnt mean you cant b&tch about it..I mean Jennifer is in a rough stage and I know I will miss it one day...but today arggggggggg
What do YOU think???
br
Oh a big huge 100% ditto to all of this!
Don't think everyone recommends that -- I'm personally anti-CIO but especially before 10m.
the secret blog
A gentle ditto
Yes, amongst most comfortable with CIO the minimum is 4 - 6 months. But that is not everyone. I am also anti-CIO, however there is no magic age I'd start letting my child cry without comfort. I agree with other PP that there is a difference between CRYING and fussing, etc.
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Harmony Doula
this was some of the best advice I got as a new mom. Baz is high needs, too, and if not for the moby....
Yes, sorry- that was a poor overgeneralization on my part. I did see that there were different perspectives, including anti-CIO.
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Haley Beth ~ March 3rd, 2011
I just wish I had known this before reading it- I just figured it was another one of those books that "every" new mom seems to be reading. I'm always hearing about HBOTB, HSHHC, Ferber, etc. But I had never heard of any that weren't recommended reading.
Now I know!
*This time I'm definitely not using "every" in the literal sense!
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Haley Beth ~ March 3rd, 2011
In line with all the recalls on cribs, carriers, et al that have caused harm to kids, I really wish they'd just put Ezzo from the shelves. He was forced to recant his ideas of scheduled feedings for infants because children died of malnutrition. Ferber's ideas on CIO do work for some kids who are ready for it, especially if their parents read the whole book and learn about creating a sleep environment, following a sleepy-time routine that teaches them "it's sleep time soon", putting the child down sleepy, and not doing when the child is ill or teething. But before her brain is creating enough melatonin to sleep soundly for extended periods (not usually before 4 months, and Ferber now recommends no earlier than 6 months), CIO won't teach her to sleep, it will only teach her that you won't come when she calls. Since she doesn't yet understand object permanence, and that you'll return, not coming when she calls generally introduces substantial stress because she thinks you're gone and you're not coming back.
Her sleep disturbances could be do to a lot of things, from food intolerance to a heightened sense of awareness of her surrounds. Baby carriers usually go a long way in helping babies catch naps while being in their favorite place (on mom). Nighttime is more challenging, especially if there's a colic, silent reflux, or ear ache problem.
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Just wanted to add, that maybe you already know this but the young infants generally need a nap after 1-2 hours of wakefulness, and 2 hours meaning that is the maximum for most babies. We found that by 1hr 15 minutes she was getting tired, by 1hr and 30 minutes she was generally out. Sleepy signs are often overlooked which includes decreased movement and glazed look, by the time they are rubbing their eyes and crabby that may indicate they are already overtired. Once the baby is overtired, that makes it harder to fall asleep.
I loved what PP said about white noise, we had super loud white noise as well, with a CD that i got off iTunes, "help your baby sleep through the night", which we played on constant repeat until my CD player died! as well as a fan and white noise machine.
Anyway good luck, I also agree that you can't spoil an infant.
ditto this. Baz was on a 90 minute cycle for what seemed like the first 4 months.
This. We didn't start CIO until 6 months, but this next time if needed, I will start at 4 months.
Me kelly?!?!
I honestly have never thought of Winnie as high needs,(1 year old and has never had a nap not on me), despite all of the "OMG why won't she sleep with out nursing?!" posts and EDs. Yup, she's taught me alot. I've always been pretty hardcore non-CIO (though I tryyyy so hard not to judge) but especially at 4 weeks, baby needs you. I am a strong believer in the 4th trimester. Emotional needs are real. Beyond fed, changed, not in pain.
The Blog | BirthbyKellyM