Parenting

this is just insane--AZ proposed law

I'm not going to link it because pretty much every major paper is covering it, but have you guys heard about the new proposals AZ lawmakers have come up with?

So, illegal immigrants would be banned from driving, enrolling in school and receiving public benefits. And here's the kinker: their kids, even if they were born here, would get special birth certificates indicating that the state does NOT consider them citizens of Arizona.

Nevermind the fact that I'm pretty sure this is against federal law, but this is just insane.


My babies!! Patrick Aydin, 9.24.07, and Alia Noor, 6.1.11 imageimage
«1

Re: this is just insane--AZ proposed law

  • Woah. That makes me feel a little sick.
    imageimage
    Alex (11/14/06) and Nate (5/25/10)
    "Want what you have, do what you can, be who you are." - Rev. Forrest Church
  • Loading the player...
  • imagehapp17:


    So, illegal immigrants would be banned from driving, enrolling in school and receiving public benefits.


    So you think illegal immigrants should be able to drive, attend school and receive public benefits?? Even though they are here illegally?

    BabyFruit Ticker
  • Nevermind that they had ancestors on this continent before all but 1% of US citizens...

    Stay at home mom to a house of boys: two amazing stepsons, 12 and 9, and our 4 year old.
  • imagewifetoawookie:
    imagehapp17:


    So, illegal immigrants would be banned from driving, enrolling in school and receiving public benefits.


    So you think illegal immigrants should be able to drive, attend school and receive public benefits?? Even though they are here illegally?

    What do you mean, illegally?  You mean they walked onto the land and claimed they lived here, in violation of the present population's social structure?

    That sounds vaguely familiar....

    Stay at home mom to a house of boys: two amazing stepsons, 12 and 9, and our 4 year old.
  • As usual, I embarrassed to say that I live in Arizona.  Dh and I are planning on moving out of this ridiculous state in the next 3 years or so.  It couldn't happen any sooner.
  • AZ should just go ahead and secede.  Gah.
  • imagewifetoawookie:
    imagehapp17:


    So, illegal immigrants would be banned from driving, enrolling in school and receiving public benefits.


    So you think illegal immigrants should be able to drive, attend school and receive public benefits?? Even though they are here illegally?

    Actually, yes, I do.  

    And trying to say children born in the US aren't citizens is unconstitutional.  Not to mention off their rockers crazy cakes. 

    WTF.  Between this kind of crap and the GA fetal murder legislation... 

    Warning No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
  • imagecjcouple:
    I don't underatand why illegal immigrants feel they deserve special treatment.  They don't pay taxes so why should they be entitled to the benefits that actual tax payers have? 

    They actually don't pay taxes only if they find a place to work that will hire them without a SS#.

    If they use a fake SS#, they are paying taxes out of their paycheck like any other worker, only they don't file a return and get the opportunity to claim it back at the end of the year.

    Stay at home mom to a house of boys: two amazing stepsons, 12 and 9, and our 4 year old.
  • imagecjcouple:
    I don't underatand why illegal immigrants feel they deserve special treatment.  They don't pay taxes so why should they be entitled to the benefits that actual tax payers have? 

    This is my point exactly.  IIf I'm out of work and therefore out of health insurance is it reasonable for me to go to Mexico and demand they give me benefits just because??  I just don't get it.  If you want to be a US Citizen fine, but there is a process to do it legally.  

    BabyFruit Ticker
  • imagecjcouple:
    I don't underatand why illegal immigrants feel they deserve special treatment.  They don't pay taxes so why should they be entitled to the benefits that actual tax payers have? 

    This is actually not the case.   One random article, because I don't have a lot of time to search for the best source-

     https://reason.org/news/show/122411.html

     "One might have imagined that those fearing deportation or confronting the prospect of paying for their safety net through their own meager wages would take a pass on the IRS' scheme. Not so. Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country today file personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers. No doubt they hope that this will one day help them acquire legal status ? a plaintive expression of their desire to play by the rules and come out of the shadows.

    What's more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers ? that the Social Security administration stashes in the "earnings suspense file" ? added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children. The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families ? most of whom are illegal ? are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume."
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
  • imageJ&A2008:

    They actually don't pay taxes only if they find a place to work that will hire them without a SS#.

    If they use a fake SS#, they are paying taxes out of their paycheck like any other worker, only they don't file a return and get the opportunity to claim it back at the end of the year.

    So it's ok to use someone else's SSN if you don't file a return and get the opportunity to claim it back? That's some bass-ackwards thinking if I've ever heard it.

    Did you know that if someone else is using your SSN for employment and they are not paying enough taxes, you could be audited and held responsible for back taxes? Did you know that if someone else using your SSN for public benefits, like say food stamps, you could be investigated and found guilty of fraud?

    Declaring children born in the US to illegal immigrants as non-citizens is unconstitutional. I'll give you that. The rest of it? Not sure I have an issue. There is a way to come into the country legally. Millions do it every year. In quite a few cases, it is more expensive and infinitely more dangerous to come illegally.

    imageAlternaTickers - Cool, free Web tickers
  • imagecjcouple:
    I don't underatand why illegal immigrants feel they deserve special treatment.  They don't pay taxes so why should they be entitled to the benefits that actual tax payers have? 

    This is actually not true.  Most illegals do pay taxes.  More than they would if they made the same as a legal person.  They also usually pay into social security that they never can collect.  I won't even get into my beliefs about illegals because it is much to complicated and issue for a short post, but I think that people have no problem exploiting them.  Want a cheap nanny, a yard crew, a housekeeper, dinner in a restaurant, cheap crap at walmart, chicken at the grocery, blueberries, you are likely using illegal labor in at least some area of your life. 

    You can't use people for very little money and then not expect to pay in some way.  

    The AZ law has to be sponsored by lawyers, I imagine it will cost them a fortune in lawsuits, particularly the part about citizenship.  

  • imageStarr57:
    imageJ&A2008:

    They actually don't pay taxes only if they find a place to work that will hire them without a SS#.

    If they use a fake SS#, they are paying taxes out of their paycheck like any other worker, only they don't file a return and get the opportunity to claim it back at the end of the year.

    So it's ok to use someone else's SSN if you don't file a return and get the opportunity to claim it back? That's some bass-ackwards thinking if I've ever heard it.

    Did you know that if someone else is using your SSN for employment and they are not paying enough taxes, you could be audited and held responsible for back taxes? Did you know that if someone else using your SSN for public benefits, like say food stamps, you could be investigated and found guilty of fraud?

    Declaring children born in the US to illegal immigrants as non-citizens is unconstitutional. I'll give you that. The rest of it? Not sure I have an issue. There is a way to come into the country legally. Millions do it every year. In quite a few cases, it is more expensive and infinitely more dangerous to come illegally.

    When they start trying to give us smallpox, I'll be on your side.

    Stay at home mom to a house of boys: two amazing stepsons, 12 and 9, and our 4 year old.
  • imageJ&A2008:

    When they start trying to give us smallpox, I'll be on your side.

    So you are ok with ID theft? Wow.

    imageAlternaTickers - Cool, free Web tickers
  • imageStarr57:
    imageJ&A2008:

    When they start trying to give us smallpox, I'll be on your side.

    So you are ok with ID theft? Wow.

    I think people who got here because their ancestors were okay with genocide will just have to deal. 

    Stay at home mom to a house of boys: two amazing stepsons, 12 and 9, and our 4 year old.
  • They come here illegally but because we take advantage of them we owe them?? WTF.

    If they went through the appropriate process to come/live/stay in the country then none of this would be an issue. 

     

    BabyFruit Ticker
  • imageJ&A2008:
    imageStarr57:
    imageJ&A2008:

    When they start trying to give us smallpox, I'll be on your side.

    So you are ok with ID theft? Wow.

    I think people who got here because their ancestors were okay with genocide will just have to deal. 

    Indifferent I really hope you never have to deal with ID theft then. Just because people I am related to did things I had no control over (and am in fact vehemently against) hundreds of years ago, I should be punished? Again, wow.

    imageAlternaTickers - Cool, free Web tickers
  • imageStarr57:
    imageJ&A2008:
    imageStarr57:
    imageJ&A2008:

    When they start trying to give us smallpox, I'll be on your side.

    So you are ok with ID theft? Wow.

    I think people who got here because their ancestors were okay with genocide will just have to deal. 

    Indifferent I really hope you never have to deal with ID theft then. Just because people I am related to did things I had no control over (and am in fact vehemently against) hundreds of years ago, I should be punished? Again, wow.

    So, who stole your identity?  Someone here legally?  or illegally?

    Stay at home mom to a house of boys: two amazing stepsons, 12 and 9, and our 4 year old.
  • CJ, what legal processes did we go through when we kicked the Native Americans out of their native land? What did we pay them? Nothing. 

     

  • imagewifetoawookie:

    They come here illegally but because we take advantage of them we owe them?? WTF.

    If they went through the appropriate process to come/live/stay in the country then none of this would be an issue. 

     

    Yeah, because when you  live in a 3rd world country full of upheaval, poverty, corruption and son, it is la di da easy peasy to fulfill the legal method of entering this country.  Or even of leaving your own.

    And getting a green card is not an exactly an easy process either.  I know someone who is basically held hostage by his employer b/c he is on a work visa.  If he leaves the company, he'll be force to leave the US.  Despite the fact that he has been working on getting a green card for nearly 10 years now, his children were born here, so on.   His employer constantly jerks him around b/c they know that they can.

    ETA: And yeah, I think anyone *we* take advantage of is owed something.  That you don't speaks volumes.   

    Anyone else hearing "They took our jobs" from South Park? 

    Warning No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
  • Someone used my SSN 6 years ago. I found out when I went to file taxes, and it was a huge headache. I think perhaps if we could find out a better way to go about all of this, those things wouldn't happen.

    I don't think it should necessarily be a huge "open door" policy--I'm not exactly sure what I think should happen, but something's not working. 

  • I understand it is a lengthy process to get a green card, etc. but if they don't have to follow the laws then why should we??  Laws and procedures are in place for a reason...and I agree that I am in no way responsible for the actions of my ancestors.  While I may disagree with every single thing they did, I don't see why I should be punished for it.  If that's the case then we should all start handing over part of our paychecks to pay for the land that was stolen from the Native Americans, pay the families of slaves for the work they were forced to do...it could go on and on.
    BabyFruit Ticker
  • imageJ&A2008:

    So, who stole your identity?  Someone here legally?  or illegally?

    Actually, I've been lucky. It's never personally happened to me. However, I work at a large banking institution. The last department I was in was identity theft. There were quite a few customers whose SSNs were used by illegal aliens. Quite a few were used by legal citizens as well. I can't even begin to think about the ramifications with the SS Administration, the IRS, state agencies for social benefits.... It's a nightmare. And it doesn't stop. FOR YEARS.

    NO ONE deserves ID theft. And NO ONE should have to just 'deal' with it. Regardless of what they did or what their great grandfather 16 times removed did. IT'S WRONG.

    imageAlternaTickers - Cool, free Web tickers
  • Who is "punishing" you?  Wifetoawookie or Starr?

    In what way is someone being in this country without going through the legal channels a personal affront to you?

    If you want to start going after every joe-shmo who is abusing welfare to stay home and use drugs or every mother who has children, only to have their parental rights terminated for abuse and neglect, then turns around and pops out more to continue to get benefits, or all the criminals on the run from the law...  I mean the list could go on and on.  Instead, you seem to be focusing your dislike on a group of people coming into this country primarily to find work.  Seems like a waste of effort, to me, that could be better spent elsewhere.

    Stay at home mom to a house of boys: two amazing stepsons, 12 and 9, and our 4 year old.
  • imagewifetoawookie:
    I understand it is a lengthy process to get a green card, etc. but if they don't have to follow the laws then why should we??  Laws and procedures are in place for a reason...and I agree that I am in no way responsible for the actions of my ancestors.  While I may disagree with every single thing they did, I don't see why I should be punished for it.  If that's the case then we should all start handing over part of our paychecks to pay for the land that was stolen from the Native Americans, pay the families of slaves for the work they were forced to do...it could go on and on.

    Luckily none of my ancestors were here that long ago.  So I'm golden, you can start paying up on other hand.  

     And stop acting like you've never broken a law.  Speeding anyone?

    Warning No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
  • As the child and grandchild of immigrants, I think they need to do it legally or suffer the consequences. The only one of my ancestors who was actually born in this country was my mom -- her parents came from Russia in the early half of the 1900s. My dad came over when he was 12.

    I had to follow the complicated procedures when I moved to England and we went by the numbers in the other direction when my ex got his green card.

    Add to that the fact that my brother was the victim of ID theft and it took 5 years to clean up the mess and I am not terribly sympathetic to those who knowingly avoid the rules. If you were born in the US, fine. Not an issue.

    Other countries have stringent rules regarding immigration, including Canada, so I see no reason why the laws regarding living here should be any more lenient.

    AKA KnittyB*tch
    DS - December 2006
    DD - December 2008

    imageimage
  • imageJ&A2008:

    Who is "punishing" you?  Wifetoawookie or Starr?

    In what way is someone being in this country without going through the legal channels a personal affront to you?

    If you want to start going after every joe-shmo who is abusing welfare to stay home and use drugs or every mother who has children, only to have their parental rights terminated for abuse and neglect, then turns around and pops out more to continue to get benefits, or all the criminals on the run from the law...  I mean the list could go on and on.  Instead, you seem to be focusing your dislike on a group of people coming into this country primarily to find work.  Seems like a waste of effort, to me, that could be better spent elsewhere.

    You were the one who said

    imageJ&A2008:
    I think people who got here because their ancestors were okay with genocide will just have to deal. 

    How is that not saying that I deserve any negative situation (ie, punishment) coming my way because of what my ancestors did? No one in particular is punishing me, per se, but if they did, well I just deserve it.

    I'm not focusing my dislike on any one group. This is one particular subject we are discussing in this thread. I don't find it relavent to talk about people who abuse the system who are here legally. I apologize if my opinion about other situations is not apparent.

    imageAlternaTickers - Cool, free Web tickers
  • imageJ&A2008:

    Who is "punishing" you?  Wifetoawookie or Starr?

    In what way is someone being in this country without going through the legal channels a personal affront to you?

    If you want to start going after every joe-shmo who is abusing welfare to stay home and use drugs or every mother who has children, only to have their parental rights terminated for abuse and neglect, then turns around and pops out more to continue to get benefits, or all the criminals on the run from the law...  I mean the list could go on and on.  Instead, you seem to be focusing your dislike on a group of people coming into this country primarily to find work.  Seems like a waste of effort, to me, that could be better spent elsewhere.

     Lol.  I have no dislike of any group of people-that's a pretty strong assumption about me considering you know nothing about me.  I understand that there are plenty of people out there breaking laws but does that mean the government should just give up trying to enforce them?? This doesn't have to be personal...just a friendly debate.

    BabyFruit Ticker
  • I really don't think moving from one first world country to another is comparable to the journey most undocumented residents face-either to get there legally or not.

     

    Warning No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
  • imageAnnapolisLari:

    As the child and grandchild of immigrants, I think they need to do it legally or suffer the consequences. The only one of my ancestors who was actually born in this country was my mom -- her parents came from Russia in the early half of the 1900s. My dad came over when he was 12.

    Other countries have stringent rules regarding immigration, including Canada, so I see no reason why the laws regarding living here should be any more lenient.

    This, except that my ancestors came from Hungary and Germany and we've had one more generation born here.

    image
    Annelise 3.22.2007 Norah 10.24.2009 Amelia 8.7.2011
  • I am not agreeing with the AZ proposed law but to say that people should be able to come here and stay illegally because of our Native American history is weird. Using that kind of logic could get us in a lot of trouble in the United States. My DH is a first generation American and his parents came here with not a penny to their name but they did it legally and through the proper channels. And my FIL was very proud of his citizenship here..probably more proud that most Americans that I know who are born here. He came here legally, worked hard and created a business that created jobs for people in maufacturing. We cannot have open borders because it feels yucky and hypocrtical to keep people out..it's not fiscally prudent.
  • So what is the answer? Do we not have any laws around immigration to America and open up the borders? I am sincerely wondering how this would all pan out. It's sounds great to say that people who support coming into the country legally are just entitled/terrible people but what then is the answer? No laws? Lenient laws? Turning a blind eye? What would be the right way to deal with the situation?
  • imageprism207:

    I really don't think moving from one first world country to another is comparable to the journey most undocumented residents face-either to get there legally or not.

    My father spent most of his childhood in a German work camp during WWII and watched his father die of tuberculosis of the intestines due to starvation. He had scars on his legs from an encounter with a pipe bomb when he was 10. He came to the US with the appropriate visas when he was 12.

    My grandfather on my mom's side came out of Russia strapped to the bottom wing of a biplane. He spent 3 years living in abject poverty in Turkey before his visas and sponsorship came through and he could come to the US. My grandmother also spent 3 years in Turkey and 1 in Montreal before she was able to legally enter the US. She was a physician in Russia and had to complete her training all over again in NYC because they would not recognize her degrees.

    I think that I have a pretty good idea of the difficulty of their journey, but they still managed to enter this country legally.

    AKA KnittyB*tch
    DS - December 2006
    DD - December 2008

    imageimage
  • I can't even read all the comments b/c this whole thing enrages me so much.  This country was built on immigrants (probably more illegal than legal).  

    WTF, the white Europeans who came over here and took this land away from Native Americans WERE illegal immigrants.  It's such an embarrassment that "we" took over this land forcefully, decimated an entire culture, killed millions of Native Americans so we could have their land & then we b*tch and act like superior life forms when people risk their lives to cross a border and eke out a better life for their families. Giving birth to a child on American soil has ALWAYS made that child an American citizen--trying to change that now is unconscionable, IMO.  

    Arizona disgusts me almost as much as Georgia and their proposed "lets make a woman prove she had a miscarriage through no fault of her own, otherwise we're going to prosecute her for having killed her baby," bvllsh!t.

  • imageAnnapolisLari:
    imageprism207:

    I really don't think moving from one first world country to another is comparable to the journey most undocumented residents face-either to get there legally or not.

    My father spent most of his childhood in a German work camp during WWII and watched his father die of tuberculosis of the intestines due to starvation. He had scars on his legs from an encounter with a pipe bomb when he was 10. He came to the US with the appropriate visas when he was 12.

    My grandfather on my mom's side came out of Russia strapped to the bottom wing of a biplane. He spent 3 years living in abject poverty in Turkey before his visas and sponsorship came through and he could come to the US. My grandmother also spent 3 years in Turkey and 1 in Montreal before she was able to legally enter the US. She was a physician in Russia and had to complete her training all over again in NYC because they would not recognize her degrees.

    I think that I have a pretty good idea of the difficulty of their journey, but they still managed to enter this country legally.

    I meant your comments about moving to England. 

    Warning No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
  • imageprism207:
    I meant your comments about moving to England. 

    Immigration is immigration. Other countries have very stringent rules about entering their countries and I don't see why our laws should be any more lenient.

    England gets immigrants from 3rd world countries all the time. Their rules are not any different for those people than they were for me.

    AKA KnittyB*tch
    DS - December 2006
    DD - December 2008

    imageimage
  • I promised myself I wouldn't enter this debate because the outright ignorance and entitlement of Americans just continues to astound me, but here it is...

    Are there actually people out there who believe that illegal children should not be educated? Do you not realize that these children are here to stay, like it or not? What happens to our future generation if we choose not to educate them? How can one justify punishing a CHILD for the crimes of their parents? Clearly, it wasn't the choice of a 6 year old to cross that border for whatever reason. What does that say about us a civilized country if we don't protect our most vulnerable?

    Do you not understand what a HUGE part of our economy that illegals make up? Guess what, American's won't do the jobs that the illegals are taking. They would rather sit at home collecting unemployment or welfare than taking menial jobs (a generalization, I know). It's not illegals who are taking advantage of these institutions, it's Americans.

    Granted, we can't have an open door policy, I understand that. But what has happened, has happened. Illegals came and now are a huge part of our economy or society. We have to meet in the middle to assimilate them into society, and create new laws and policies if we don't want this to continue happening.

     

    DD1 12.18.06 DD2 9.18.08 DD3 EDD 5.10.2012 BabyFruit Ticker
  • Not every person who comes here illegally is a saint (likewise not every American is a saint). And IMO kids are now and will always be protected.

  • imageREOM:

    I promised myself I wouldn't enter this debate because the outright ignorance and entitlement of Americans just continues to astound me, but here it is...

    Are there actually people out there who believe that illegal children should not be educated? Do you not realize that these children are here to stay, like it or not? What happens to our future generation if we choose not to educate them? How can one justify punishing a CHILD for the crimes of their parents? Clearly, it wasn't the choice of a 6 year old to cross that border for whatever reason. What does that say about us a civilized country if we don't protect our most vulnerable?

    Do you not understand what a HUGE part of our economy that illegals make up? Guess what, American's won't do the jobs that the illegals are taking. They would rather sit at home collecting unemployment or welfare than taking menial jobs (a generalization, I know). It's not illegals who are taking advantage of these institutions, it's Americans.

    Granted, we can't have an open door policy, I understand that. But what has happened, has happened. Illegals came and now are a huge part of our economy or society. We have to meet in the middle to assimilate them into society, and create new laws and policies if we don't want this to continue happening.

     

    Very well put, REOM.

    imageimage
    Alex (11/14/06) and Nate (5/25/10)
    "Want what you have, do what you can, be who you are." - Rev. Forrest Church
  • imageAnnapolisLari:

    imageprism207:
    I meant your comments about moving to England. 

    Immigration is immigration. Other countries have very stringent rules about entering their countries and I don't see why our laws should be any more lenient.

    England gets immigrants from 3rd world countries all the time. Their rules are not any different for those people than they were for me.

    The rule aren't different, but your ability to comprehend and comply with them probably was.  You almost certainly had better access to information and money to help smooth the way.  Nor did the US try to keep you from leaving by various methods including but not limited to intimidation or imprisonment.   

    Just not the same. 

    Warning No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
This discussion has been closed.
Choose Another Board
Search Boards
"
"