This will surely stir the pot...

natgerber · January 2011

meimsx:
natgerber:
I'm science all the way. Its interesting how generally the people who say things like "I respect everyones own beliefs" or "each to their own" etc are the people who are not religious. As long as people don't push their beliefs on me, then go ahead and believe what you like
Um, I did say I respect others who didn't feel the same way I do and I said I don't think infertility and the like is a punishment.
I think you are casting a net over everyone that is religious as the same. I respect the fact that you don't believe in God so you can't say we all don't respect your beliefs.

I guess it depends on how you read my comment. I did say "generally" and I never said "all people". I understand that people get very defensive when it comes to their beliefs, I guess this is why the post was call "this will surely stir the pot"

pallasjessica · January 2011

Eskijewels:
Leggadine08:

I love science, it was the subject I most excelled in. But I find it odd that people who claim to believe in science dont believe in a higher power (be it God, Buddha, whoever) I mean, we are SOO complex and intricate, the way we function is insane! I cannot believe a totally random collision somewhere way out in space set in motion the formation of our reproductive systems and how babies are concieved. Im not saying if you dont believe it your wrong, for me personally I just cannot escape the fact that there are higher powers, whatever they may be.
This for me completely....

This reminds me of a Colbert quote...

"I don't understand how things work, so there must be a god"

Just because humans have a difficult time comprehending the beginning of the universe it doesn't mean that there is a powerful man in the sky doing it all. This idea gives no credibility to the creation myth.

But I understand using the term "higher power". For me, its synonymous with the word Nature.

sparkymcgeee · January 2011

natgerber:
meimsx:
natgerber:
I'm science all the way. Its interesting how generally the people who say things like "I respect everyones own beliefs" or "each to their own" etc are the people who are not religious. As long as people don't push their beliefs on me, then go ahead and believe what you like
Um, I did say I respect others who didn't feel the same way I do and I said I don't think infertility and the like is a punishment.
I think you are casting a net over everyone that is religious as the same. I respect the fact that you don't believe in God so you can't say we all don't respect your beliefs.
I guess it depends on how you read my comment. I did say "generally" and I never said "all people". I understand that people get very defensive when it comes to their beliefs, I guess this is why the post was call "this will surely stir the pot"

That's true. You did say that. I guess I just felt a little defensive because its a sensitive subject and I felt it was unfair. Sorry.

BetchySprout · January 2011

I struggle with this one a lot. I have friends all around me who conceived through medical science. Is that a miracle of God or miracle of science? What about my aunt who had 7 kids taken from the state and she was on so many drugs her last (accidental) baby was born with an an imperforate anus and a fatal heart defect, which made his short time on earth horribly painful and awful? I just don't know. I think about it a lot, and my opinion changes often. I think a lot happens for a reason, but I don't know who is at the wheel.

ams8099 · January 2011

Considering I am borderline agnostic, I do not believe that God has any control over what happens or doesn't happen on this Earth.

I do not believe that God would have made me suffer through 3.5 years of IF. I just can't justify that God would put anyone through heartache.

Yellow_Daisy · January 2011

I don't see why this would stir the pot, but I do call this baby our little miracle as DH and I can't have children without medical help. So for us, this child is our long awaited miracle via the very capable specialists at our fertility clinic :-D.

I am not religious so I would not say a gift from god, but to each their own.

JaysonandKristin · January 2011

As an atheist, I find it absolutely offensive when people make a comment like, "Your babies are a gift from God." It's laughable to me because I make no secret of my beliefs and these comments come from family. I would never disrespect a family member by correcting them, but I still see red when someone says stuff like this to me.

I don't care what you believe. As long as you love and respect your children, and respect that I'm a mother trying to raise my children to respect you and yours, we can all live happily ever after.

If you think your children are a gift from God, then I can only imagine with what kind of love and kindness you must be raising them. That can only make this world a better place, right?

I just want to raise children who are happy and healthy and kind...

We can all meet in the middle, IMO.

othello888 · January 2011

I believe in miracles, God, Bible, Christ, etc. I've heard doctors say, "We can easily explain how a baby is conceived, however can't really fully explain/comprehend how the heartbeat starts."

jl_nc · January 2011

smiling76:
::getting my popcorn ready for this flick::

No, really......it all depends on what you believe. Big bang theory vs evolution..... I think God gave us the gifts to create life...but I think HE is behind it all.....and behind us.....

agreed. I believe we were all created, not evolved and that there is a plan behind everything. I believe God creates life, my life. DH's life, DD's life and this baby's life and that we each have a purpose!

absoluteremix · January 2011

Not religious at all here. So this baby is a miracle of "my husbands sperm swam fast enough". I do however believe in miracles, but not "miracles from god".

MoonlitPlumeria · January 2011

pallasjessica:

This reminds me of a Colbert quote...
"I don't understand how things work, so there must be a god"
Just because humans have a difficult time comprehending the beginning of the universe it doesn't mean that there is a powerful man in the sky doing it all. This idea gives no credibility to the creation myth.
But I understand using the term "higher power". For me, its synonymous with the word Nature.

If you are talking about Stephen Colbert, technically I believe he was quoting Bill O'Reilly who has long used this stupid reason for his proof that God exists. Besides, the other day, Stephen Colbert declared that Neil DeGrasse Tyson is God and that we should all "Kneel before Neil!"

othello888 · January 2011

Hollywood214:
~adamwife~:

I love Psalm 139 because it so beautifully describes for me how God has His hand in everything we do. I especially love verses 13-16:
¹³ For you created my inmost being;
   you knit me together in my mother?s womb.
¹⁴ I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
   your works are wonderful,
   I know that full well.
¹⁵ My frame was not hidden from you
   when I was made in the secret place,
   when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
¹⁶ Your eyes saw my unformed body;
   all the days ordained for me were written in your book
   before one of them came to be.
Love this!!!

I also love this and used part of it in our birth announcement. I will be using it again in the next announcement.

luvchaitea · January 2011

Mis+Shapes:
I am team evolution, but I don't have any problem at all with team creation. Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

Same here. And my children will be raised with the ability to believe in what they choose to believe in....not what I tell them they should believe.

luvchaitea · January 2011

pallasjessica:

MiraclePending:
I don't believe in god, so I say it's 100% biological science. What's to be said about IVF then? Are reproductive specialists gods just because they fertilize human eggs?

This. I'm Team Darwin, and am also an atheist. I always wonder if theists ever think about the fallacy of the omnipotent god. If a child is a gift from god given specifically to you, what does it mean when a child is taken away from another parent? Are they being punished or taught a lesson? And who is to know his exact intentions if he is so much higher than us humans? Doesn't sound like a great guy to me...

I'm all for respecting people's personal beliefs, but sometimes I wonder if humanity will ever emerge from the bronze age....

I am Agnostic...but I love this response.

Mrs. Han Solo · January 2011

My belief: DH and I created a human female, God will give her a soul.

If you don't believe humans have a soul, then that's your right:)

Pythia1022 · January 2011

natgerber:
I'm science all the way. Its interesting how generally the people who say things like "I respect everyones own beliefs" or "each to their own" etc are the people who are not religious. As long as people don't push their beliefs on me, then go ahead and believe what you like

I'm a religious person; yet I DO respect other beliefs. I think you are making a ridiculous, ignorant generalization. I believe in all paths to God. I don't believe that any religion is more "right" than another; I actually think that learning about different beliefs is very enlightening. I practice Catholicism, but I definitely see "God" in Hinduism, Islam, etc. I'm not sure if I believe that "God" is the traditional "man in the sky," but I absolutely believe that there are spiritual forces at work that are greater than we are.

I believe that God plays a hand in the decisions we make. Free will, absolutely; but I do believe that He guides us in some unseen way. I believe that being able to create life is an incredible gift, and the innocence that all babies are born with 'proves' that to me. My baby absolutely is a gift from God, whomever God may be.

Edit: I'd also like to add that I was adopted by parents who spent eight years trying to conceive on their own with lots of trouble and heartache. My Mom always used to tell me that God had her wait so that she could be the Mom to those she was meant for. God absolutely gave her a "gift" when she unexpectedly conceived my baby sister, 16 years later. We all call her the "miracle baby."

e_uecker · January 2011

othello888:
I believe in miracles, God, Bible, Christ, etc. I've heard doctors say, "We can easily explain how a baby is conceived, however can't really fully explain/comprehend how the heartbeat starts."

Wow I love this.

epphd · January 2011

Leggadine08:

I love science, it was the subject I most excelled in. But I find it odd that people who claim to believe in science dont believe in a higher power (be it God, Buddha, whoever) I mean, we are SOO complex and intricate, the way we function is insane! I cannot believe a totally random collision somewhere way out in space set in motion the formation of our reproductive systems and how babies are concieved. Im not saying if you dont believe it your wrong, for me personally I just cannot escape the fact that there are higher powers, whatever they may be.

But with all that said, I agree with everyone who said that God isnt messing around with peoples lives. We were given the ability but I dont believe He ordains when we get pregnant or when nature takes its course and someone loses a child.

But regardless of whether its science or God EVERY BABY is special and deserves that its life be respected.

The reason we can accept that there is no god is that all of your observations are explainable. They don't require divine intervention - we have evidence to explain how they all happen. Yes, we are complex, but every single component of our physiology can be understood using the scientific method and understanding the fundamental principles of evolution. A car engine is also very complex and frankly, I don't know how it works. But a mechanic does. Complexity does not mean divine origin. The inability to understand something does not imply god. The seeming "inability" to understand the natural world simply reflects what we have been able to explain so far - and IMO, there is nothing that science cannot explain.

My first child was the product entirely of science - created in a dish with donor eggs. This conception should not have happened - by all accounts I am supposed to be about as infertile as they come. However, I still have eggs, ovaries, a uterus and DH has sperm. We didn't have zero chance of conceiving, but we had a very, very low chance. Yet, it happened. Some will call it a miracle. I will call it biology and statistics.

scarlette+noir · January 2011

eliselucas:
othello888:
I believe in miracles, God, Bible, Christ, etc. I've heard doctors say, "We can easily explain how a baby is conceived, however can't really fully explain/comprehend how the heartbeat starts."
Wow I love this.

This made me LOL, since I remember exactly what starts the heartbeat and blood pumping action... all of which I learned in my *high school* anatomy class.

thediarywithin · January 2011

See, I am a little different with all of this because my husband and I were not even trying to get pregnant. I wanted to get pregnant but he wanted to wait until I was out of school. So...we used protection. I often prayed for God to help me get through the waiting to try to become a parent or help my DH come to the conclusion that we would be okay if we started our family. Huge surpise in August when I was late and then when we found out we were expecting. So I believe God had a hand in it somehow. He did make our bodies, but for me he did have a hand in getting one sperm to the egg.

But, I also think that science does have a way into it somehow. Not sure where...though.

I do respect everyone's beliefs no matter what they think. I am always interested in hearing what others are saying.

epphd · January 2011

eliselucas:

othello888:
I believe in miracles, God, Bible, Christ, etc. I've heard doctors say, "We can easily explain how a baby is conceived, however can't really fully explain/comprehend how the heartbeat starts."

Wow I love this.

I have to disagree. What do you mean we can't explain it? yes we can! The heart starts to beat when the cardiac muscle cells complete the molecular processes that finalize the architecture of the heart. Innervation by neurons that control cardiac activity then allows for action potentials to fire at the (if I recall correctly) motor efferent neurons, releasing acetylcholine at the neuromuscular junction and causing contraction of the myofibrils. Just because a doctor doesn't know or recall the molecular details doesn't mean that "gosh no one knows."

epphd · January 2011

thediarywithin:

See, I am a little different with all of this because my husband and I were not even trying to get pregnant. I wanted to get pregnant but he wanted to wait until I was out of school. So...we used protection. I often prayed for God to help me get through the waiting to try to become a parent or help my DH come to the conclusion that we would be okay if we started our family. Huge surpise in August when I was late and then when we found out we were expecting. So I believe God had a hand in it somehow. He did make our bodies, but for me he did have a hand in getting one sperm to the egg.

But, I also think that science does have a way into it somehow. Not sure where...though.

I do respect everyone's beliefs no matter what they think. I am always interested in hearing what others are saying.

So God caused your birth control to fail? Couldn't have been user error, or the inherent (albeit small) failure rate of birth control? I think that science would easily explain is that you and your DH had sex near ovulation, and at least one sperm made it in. Either the condom broke, or the pill wasn't 100% effective or whatever. If you have sperm, eggs, and a uterus, there is always a biological chance of conception, no god required.

nillian10 · January 2011

Mis+Shapes:
I am team evolution, but I don't have any problem at all with team creation. Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

this exactly.

luvchaitea · January 2011

epphd:
eliselucas:

othello888:
I believe in miracles, God, Bible, Christ, etc. I've heard doctors say, "We can easily explain how a baby is conceived, however can't really fully explain/comprehend how the heartbeat starts."

Wow I love this.

I have to disagree. What do you mean we can't explain it? yes we can! The heart starts to beat when the cardiac muscle cells complete the molecular processes that finalize the architecture of the heart. Innervation by neurons that control cardiac activity then allows for action potentials to fire at the (if I recall correctly) motor efferent neurons, releasing acetylcholine at the neuromuscular junction and causing contraction of the myofibrils. Just because a doctor doesn't know or recall the molecular details doesn't mean that "gosh no one knows."

Yes

e_uecker · January 2011

scarlette+noir:
eliselucas:

othello888:
I believe in miracles, God, Bible, Christ, etc. I've heard doctors say, "We can easily explain how a baby is conceived, however can't really fully explain/comprehend how the heartbeat starts."

Wow I love this.

This made me LOL, since I remember exactly what starts the heartbeat and blood pumping action... all of which I learned in my *high school* anatomy class.

Sad Wah Wah. LOL I was the worlds worse student. I don't remember sh*t from high school. Well it was interesting while it lasted.

schmoodle · January 2011

Easy one for me since I don't believe in god. And our first three were definitely thanks to science, as they were created in a lab by an embryologist. This one was "miraculously" conceived without a medical team but I'm still placing that solidly on luck and hormone adjustment due to my prior pregnancy. I would like to believe in a greater force out there, just not possible for me.

Scout05 · January 2011

epphd:
eliselucas:

othello888:
I believe in miracles, God, Bible, Christ, etc. I've heard doctors say, "We can easily explain how a baby is conceived, however can't really fully explain/comprehend how the heartbeat starts."

Wow I love this.

I have to disagree. What do you mean we can't explain it? yes we can! The heart starts to beat when the cardiac muscle cells complete the molecular processes that finalize the architecture of the heart. Innervation by neurons that control cardiac activity then allows for action potentials to fire at the (if I recall correctly) motor efferent neurons, releasing acetylcholine at the neuromuscular junction and causing contraction of the myofibrils. Just because a doctor doesn't know or recall the molecular details doesn't mean that "gosh no one knows."

I have to agree here.

However, I love what another poster said about biology giving us life, God giving us a soul. That rings more true, for me personally.

schmoodle · January 2011

pallasjessica:

If a child is a gift from god given specifically to you, what does it mean when a child is taken away from another parent? Are they being punished or taught a lesson?

Well said. If having 2 children die has taught me anything, it is that life and the world is completely random. To believe otherwise is simply too cruel/painful for me to fathom. There was no "reason" they had to die (or any child has to). If there was a god, I don't think he/she/it would choose to "gift" children to so many who cannot and will not care them and take them from so many who would have died for the opportunity.

epphd · January 2011

schmoodle:
pallasjessica:

If a child is a gift from god given specifically to you, what does it mean when a child is taken away from another parent? Are they being punished or taught a lesson?

Well said. If having 2 children die has taught me anything, it is that life and the world is completely random. To believe otherwise is simply too cruel/painful for me to fathom. There was no "reason" they had to die (or any child has to). If there was a god, I don't think he/she/it would choose to "gift" children to so many who cannot and will not care them and take them from so many who would have died for the opportunity.

As always, I PPH schmoodle.

othello888 · January 2011

Glad I made you laugh. Nope, you are wrong, it is an electrical charge, that isn't fully explained...do some research beyond "high school" this made me "lol"

othello888 · January 2011

So who or what starts the "cardiac cells to complete the molecular processes that finalize the architecture of the heart"?...or whatever you just googled? Something starts all of this...starts all of us. Who made the "big bang" occur?

There is also this thing called faith. Some people have it, some people don't.

e_uecker · January 2011

oops.

BetchySprout · January 2011

othello888:
So who or what starts the "cardiac cells to complete the molecular processes that finalize the architecture of the heart"?...or whatever you just googled? Something starts all of this...starts all of us. Who made the "big bang" occur?
There is also this thing called faith. Some people have it, some people don't.

LOL at Epphd having to Google any of that. Girl is wicked smart. I wouldn't be so quick to call her out on e-research.

schmoodle · January 2011

othello888:

So who or what starts the "cardiac cells to complete the molecular processes that finalize the architecture of the heart"?...or whatever you just googled?

Considering that she has a PhD in biology, I'm guessing she didn't google it and knows a bit more than most posting here. And there are plenty of things that happen without someone intentionally causing them. If you drop a mento into a coke bottle it will explode - something had to trigger the chemical reaction that causes that chain of events. I doubt god has the time or energy to flip the switch every time on that, so why should any other scientific process be different? I don't begrudge anyone's beliefs and as I mentioned, I would be happy if I could have faith/religion but it's not in my makeup, however, I think it's best to leave this discussion at some of us believe x, others believe y, than to try and argue around an apparently fallacious anecdote that doctors don't know how hearts start.

epphd · January 2011

othello888:

So who or what starts the "cardiac cells to complete the molecular processes that finalize the architecture of the heart"?...or whatever you just googled? Something starts all of this...starts all of us. Who made the "big bang" occur?

There is also this thing called faith. Some people have it, some people don't.

Faith is a wonderful thing that brings comfort to millions of people and that's super.

But faith isn't required here. I confess to not being a developmental biologist - I'm a cell biologist - but you can read any developmental biology text book. (here is an excerpt): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9982/?rendertype=figure&id=A3702

What starts the developmental process begins when sperm and egg meet and the zygote makes that first cell division. Cell fate specification is the result of specific genes that are activated as a result of mechanical forces of the cell dividing and signaling of calcium and other ions. Once those genes are activated, specific signaling cascades are triggered. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but the reality is this HAS been explained biologically.

It's not to say that are not unknowns in biology - for instance, no one knows how tylenol works - what it's molecular target is. But my point is that doesn't mean that god makes it work. We just haven't identified the actual protein that is modulated by acetaminphen.

scarlette+noir · January 2011

othello888:
So who or what starts the "cardiac cells to complete the molecular processes that finalize the architecture of the heart"?...or whatever you just googled? Something starts all of this...starts all of us. Who made the "big bang" occur?
There is also this thing called faith. Some people have it, some people don't.

I see this 'faith' term get abused too often by someone who has an opinion they want to be considered fact. When they have no way to back that opinion, or even make it sound plausible, they plug the term 'faith' into the equation as if it's silly putty plugging holes in their leaky logic. Some individuals do the same thing when an idea or concept is just too far beyond their cognitive capabilities, so they dismiss the idea and say their 'faith' and 'god' did it, because it's an easy way out of having to fire up some neurons.

natgerber · January 2011

Pythia1022:
natgerber:
I'm science all the way. Its interesting how generally the people who say things like "I respect everyones own beliefs" or "each to their own" etc are the people who are not religious. As long as people don't push their beliefs on me, then go ahead and believe what you like
I'm a religious person; yet I DO respect other beliefs. I think you are making a ridiculous, ignorant generalization. I believe in all paths to God. I don't believe that any religion is more "right" than another; I actually think that learning about different beliefs is very enlightening. I practice Catholicism, but I definitely see "God" in Hinduism, Islam, etc. I'm not sure if I believe that "God" is the traditional "man in the sky," but I absolutely believe that there are spiritual forces at work that are greater than we are.
I believe that God plays a hand in the decisions we make. Free will, absolutely; but I do believe that He guides us in some unseen way. I believe that being able to create life is an incredible gift, and the innocence that all babies are born with 'proves' that to me. My baby absolutely is a gift from God, whomever God may be.

Edit: I'd also like to add that I was adopted by parents who spent eight years trying to conceive on their own with lots of trouble and heartache. My Mom always used to tell me that God had her wait so that she could be the Mom to those she was meant for. God absolutely gave her a "gift" when she unexpectedly conceived my baby sister, 16 years later. We all call her the "miracle baby."

Calm down, calm down. You may or may not have noticed that I posted a response saying that I think my original post is not being read how I meant it. I was not talking about people in general but just some of the posts previous to mine. I understand that people get defensive about their beliefs and thats fine. I think its important to remember that this is just supposed to be a discussion and no one needs to take it so seriously

JNBrickey · January 2011

Interesting to me that this thread seems to have more people trying to shove biology down people's throats then people trying to shove faith. That's not what I expected at all.

laurakaz13 · January 2011

JNBrickey:
Interesting to me that this thread seems to have more people trying to shove biology down people's throats then people trying to shove faith. That's not what I expected at all.

Well, the Biology, specifically what epphd is mentioning is actual FACT. There is no fact in faith, which is why it's called faith.

I don't see anyone trying to shove anything down anyone's throat. I do see someone being called out for an incorrect statement, which happens on these boards all the time.

muddin_lil_sis · January 2011

Hollywood214:
~adamwife~:

I love Psalm 139 because it so beautifully describes for me how God has His hand in everything we do. I especially love verses 13-16:

¹³ For you created my inmost being;
   you knit me together in my mother?s womb.
¹⁴ I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
   your works are wonderful,
   I know that full well.
¹⁵ My frame was not hidden from you
   when I was made in the secret place,
   when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
¹⁶ Your eyes saw my unformed body;
   all the days ordained for me were written in your book
   before one of them came to be.

Love this!!!

x2!!!

My DH and I tried for a year to get pregnant. Last June I had roughly 40 of the (somewhere around) 80 cysts removed from my ovaries. Doc said with out some sort of fertility drugs, we'd never get pregnant on our own. I'm due in May with our first, and probably only biological child...made with out any fertility drugs or science. We believed if we could not concieve on our own, then it was not in God's plan for us to and there was a reason for that. Things such as the thousands of fostered children who need a loving home and family. That being said, our Godson was born to a horrible mother and father. They neglected him, abandoned him, flat did not want him. There were many nights my DH and I cried over this child. Why would God allow such horrible people to have such a wonderful baby, and we couldn't? I don't have an answer for that and probably never will. The baby boy in my belly is 100% a miracle and gift from God.

I believe God is the only God and creator of all. He has a plan and a purpose for all. We are NOT to comprehend everything. "For I know the plans I have for you,? declares the LORD, ?plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:11

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