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Come in Weissbluth girls (or anyone else who has a clue what to do)
So, I am reading HSHHC for the 3rd time because I must have missed something the first two times. I'm hoping someone can help me see something that I'm missing. I'll try to give as much detail, while being as brief as possible, but this will probably be long. Any ideas/suggestions as to what the frick we are doing wrong would be appreciated. 
Problem #1: Reese is still waking up 3x most nights.
She goes to bed between 7:15-7:30. She goes to bed very easily at this time. I can usually put her down drowsy, & walk away. Sometimes there is minimal fussing, or I have to replace the paci once, but overall, she goes down very easily.
She has a fussy period every night from about 5:30 until we put her in the tub at 6:30. I feel like she would possibly take a nap around this time, but then bedtime ends up getting later.
Because of the night wakings & evening fussiness, I had started to think that maybe she needed an earlier bedtime (from reading HSHHC), & we tried to put her down at 6:45-7 the last few nights. She fell asleep easily each night, but then woke up EXACTLY 30 min later (I guess she thought it was a nap). This wake-up was followed by 45 minutes of screaming while trying to get her back to sleep, & didn't make a difference in nighttime wakings. The earlier bedtime experiment is over.
She usually wakes up around 10:30, 3, & 6. I have tried bouncing, rocking, etc. to get her back to sleep, but it has never worked. She will not go back to sleep until she is fed (either breast or bottle will satisfy, so I don't think it's just a desire to nurse). I do believe that she is hungry. I initially thought that she may be ready to be awake for the day at her 6 a.m. wake up, but she is not. This is simply a wake up to feed. She wakes up for the day between 7 & 8 (usually 7:15).
Problem #2: We have not yet developed the morning & afternoon nap pattern. She currently takes 3-4 naps a day, which end at EXACTLY 30 minutes almost every time. I am concerned that she is not getting enough good, restorative sleep.
She is ready for her first nap within an hour of waking up in the morning. All of her other naps are after she has been up for 1.5-2 hours. I have tried keeping her up for longer intervals, & she turns into a tired, cranky mess. (Maybe I just need to deal with this for a few days until she "gets" it???)
When she wakes up after 30 min, she is happy, & ready to play. I cannot get her back to sleep, or coax her to sleep longer by just leaving her in her crib.
According to Dr. Weissbluth (who may find my copy of HSHHC shoved up his arse soon):
*Some babies are born to be short or long nappers.
*Parents cannot make short nappers into long nappers.
He says these things as if they are normal & healthy, but then goes on to say...
*A nap less than 1 hour is not restorative.
*A nap less than 45 minutes should not count as a nap.
To further piss me off, he says...
*A baby who does not sleep well during the day, may not sleep well at night.
*A baby who does not sleep well at night, may not sleep well during the day.
This is not helpful.
Okay, I think I'm done rambling. I'm certainly not trying to fit my baby into a book. I just want her to have healthy sleep, & this guy is supposedly the expert. I wouldn't mind a decent night's rest either. Any input is appreciated!!!
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Come in Weissbluth girls (or anyone else who has a clue what to do)
I'm sorry you are dealing with all this ... but misery loves company, right?
I have read HSHHC as well and while I learned a few things from it, I would just use them as guidelines and know that every child is different and you have to do what seems to work best for YOUR child. C used to be a 30 minute on the dot napper, but has recently started linking his 4 naps into 2 hour-hour 1/2 naps and one 30 minute evening nap. Reese might start to do the same as she gets older. Since the 30 minutes seemed to be enough for him, I quit trying to get him to sleep longer, and just resorted to more frequent naps. But it is normal for babies to be ready for their first nap an hour or two after waking.
As for the night time sleep ... C has gone from 1 or 2 night wakings, to waking up every hour or so starting at about 10 or 11 p.m. He and Reese seem to have the same tendencies and schedules, but he is down by 6:30, wakes an hour later and fusses, but I've learned after about 10 minutes he falls back to sleep on his own and will sleep until about 10, when the crazy night wakings happen. I have tried just rocking or bouncing as well, but he wants to nurse and falls back to sleep. So to save all of our sanity, I just nurse him and go back to sleep.
I'm hoping this is just a phase that he will grow out of, but I completely feel your pain about needing sleep. Just know you aren't alone. One thing I have been told by a few moms is when babies are going through developmental growth (learning to crawl, walk, etc.) so maybe it will pass.
I'm sorry that I am no help. I wish I had the answers too. Hopefully someone else will have some suggestions, besides CIO because that is just not something I'm willing to do, and I just don't see it working with C anyways.
Sadly, it does help to know we aren't alone! It actually gives me some hope to hear that C has changed his nap tendencies. Maybe I just need to be patient. Like I said, I don't want to try to fit her into some book's standards, but I want her to be getting the rest she needs, & I don't think that her total hours of sleep per day seems healthy. I will try to accept the short nap intervals for the time being...
Sorry to hear that your nights have gotten so crazy. Starting solids HAS to help, right?? That's what I'm hoping for anyways (although, I think it's going to be awhile before Reese is getting a substantial enough amount to make a difference).
I am using the disclaimer: I have a child who still doesn't STTN (so you might not want to listen to me). However, Mari is definitely a happier baby these days and I attribute it to giving in to her sleep habits.
I am beginning to believe that not all babies will STTN when we want them to or think they should. What makes this dealable for me is that Mari sleeps with us and that boob gets her back to sleep, so I just nurse her when she wakes up and she nurses right back to sleep. Actually, I wake up in the morning with my boobs completely out because I'm completely asleep moments after nursing.
That said, you may want to throw my response directly out the window
So, I am reading HSHHC for the 3rd time because I must have missed something the first two times. I'm hoping someone can help me see something that I'm missing. I'll try to give as much detail, while being as brief as possible, but this will probably be long. Any ideas/suggestions as to what the frick we are doing wrong would be appreciated.
HSHHC methods never worked for us. Neither did Ferber.
Problem #1: Reese is still waking up 3x most nights.
She goes to bed between 7:15-7:30. She goes to bed very easily at this time. I can usually put her down drowsy, & walk away. Sometimes there is minimal fussing, or I have to replace the paci once, but overall, she goes down very easily.
She has a fussy period every night from about 5:30 until we put her in the tub at 6:30. I feel like she would possibly take a nap around this time, but then bedtime ends up getting later.
Because of the night wakings & evening fussiness, I had started to think that maybe she needed an earlier bedtime (from reading HSHHC), & we tried to put her down at 6:45-7 the last few nights. She fell asleep easily each night, but then woke up EXACTLY 30 min later (I guess she thought it was a nap). This wake-up was followed by 45 minutes of screaming while trying to get her back to sleep, & didn't make a difference in nighttime wakings. The earlier bedtime experiment is over.
She usually wakes up around 10:30, 3, & 6. I have tried bouncing, rocking, etc. to get her back to sleep, but it has never worked. She will not go back to sleep until she is fed (either breast or bottle will satisfy, so I don't think it's just a desire to nurse). I do believe that she is hungry. I initially thought that she may be ready to be awake for the day at her 6 a.m. wake up, but she is not. This is simply a wake up to feed. She wakes up for the day between 7 & 8 (usually 7:15).
So, I tried this method too and it didn't work for us at all. Only after I gave in and started Mari on an evening nap (a shortie - around 30 minutes), did she start sleeping better. Or at least, she'd have a bit longer of a stretch in the beginning of the night. In the beginning, from like weeks 3-12, she would SLEEP from like 9pm-4am. Straight. And at that time, I was letting her take an evening nap at like 7pm and putting her to bed around 9/9:30. We're back to that method, only I try to get her down for her last nap between 5 and 6 (and get her to bed by 9ish). I also firmly believe that Mari is hungry when she wakes. She doesn't just comfort nurse - she eats through a let-down fully. If you believe Reese is hungry, then by all means feed her back to sleep. If that's what gets both of you the most amount of sleep, then I say go for it. I think maybe integrating an evening nap and getting her to bed a little later might help the situation - it did for us.
Problem #2: We have not yet developed the morning & afternoon nap pattern. She currently takes 3-4 naps a day, which end at EXACTLY 30 minutes almost every time. I am concerned that she is not getting enough good, restorative sleep. Mari naps similarly still. She will nap for between 30-45 minutes and every now and then go for an hour. Once in a while, she'll pull a 2-hour nap (oh happy day!). If she's getting good sleep at night (12 hours, with just waking a couple times to feed in between), I wouldn't worry too much about the short naps during the day. I brought this up to Mari's doc a few months ago and he told me as long as her sleep is totaling to about 14 hours, not to worry about it.
She is ready for her first nap within an hour of waking up in the morning. All of her other naps are after she has been up for 1.5-2 hours. I have tried keeping her up for longer intervals, & she turns into a tired, cranky mess. (Maybe I just need to deal with this for a few days until she "gets" it???) I wouldn't even bother trying to keep her up - if she's showing signs that she needs to go down, get her down. Don't worry about how long she's up. Just read her cues.
When she wakes up after 30 min, she is happy, & ready to play. Very good sign. I cannot get her back to sleep, or coax her to sleep longer by just leaving her in her crib. Methinks she is a short napper by nature.
According to Dr. Weissbluth (who may find my copy of HSHHC shoved up his arse soon):
*Some babies are born to be short or long nappers.
*Parents cannot make short nappers into long nappers.
He says these things as if they are normal & healthy, but then goes on to say...
*A nap less than 1 hour is not restorative. I don't believe this.
*A nap less than 45 minutes should not count as a nap. Or this.
To further piss me off, he says...
*A baby who does not sleep well during the day, may not sleep well at night.
*A baby who does not sleep well at night, may not sleep well during the day.
This is not helpful.
Okay, I think I'm done rambling. I'm certainly not trying to fit my baby into a book. I just want her to have healthy sleep, & this guy is supposedly the expert. I wouldn't mind a decent night's rest either. Any input is appreciated!!!
I'm going to tell you what the breastfeeding doctor told me... Go with your instincts and follow her cues. If Reese is waking and will eat rather than comfort nurse, then she needs to eat. Honestly, the only thing that's helped us is my just becoming accustomed to the fact that she sleeps in my bed whether I like it or not. Ultimately, we both need rest and whereas bedsharing wasn't something I wanted to do, it allows me to nurse her and get her and I back to sleep (she's been a distracted nurser for a long time now, so I truly believe she makes up for short nursing sessions during the day, at night).
Also, when she goes into her "witching hour" try getting her into a quiet dark room and nursing her. She may still want to cluster feed - Mari still does at that time too.
And lastly, Dani, I totally feel your pain. I wish there was a magical solution, but that's the story of... that's the glory of...[url=http://www.thebump.com/?utm_source=ticker&utm_medium=UBB&utm_campaign=tickers][img]http://global.thebump.com/tickers/tte03a3.aspx[/img]
And I should say, I am so glad you posted this too because I have felt so alone in this world of sleepless nights. You always think that by 6 months they would be sleeping for 12 hours straight and all would be happy and routine. I tried a couple of nights to let C fuss himself back to sleep (I can tell between crying and fussing) and when it wouldn't work and we would both be awake for an hour or 2 at a time in the middle of the night, and I felt like I was going against my instinct, I gave that up real quick. Now it takes less than 10 minutes to nurse him back to sleep and we are all a little more rested.
This might not be the case either, but I recently read that babies with working moms tend to cluster feed through the night to make up for not feeding/eating as much during the day. C's sleeping habits have started happening since I started going back to work so it could have some truth to it in our case.
Do not feel alone. There are plenty of us right there with you. :::::hugs:::::
[url=http://www.thebump.com/?utm_source=ticker&utm_medium=UBB&utm_campaign=tickers][img]http://global.thebump.com/tickers/tte03a3.aspx[/img]
Gavin is also a short napper and nothing that I do makes it any better, but his morning naps are getting longer now and sometimes he skips his evening nap. He doesn't STTN but I don't really think most babies do at this age. Or at least that's what I tell myself.
Here's his schedule (roughly):
wake up between 7-8am (closer to 7 most of the time)
1st nap around 9, and wake up at 10
2nd nap at 12, wake at 12:45
3rd nap at 3, wake at 3:30
4th nap at 5:30, wake around 6 (he doesn't always take this nap, but it helps and he's crabby if he skips it)
When he wakes up I start bedtime routine and he's in bed by 8
Then he wakes to eat around 3-4, and then sometimes again at 5-6.
Also, if he's fussy in the evening I would try another feeding. Gavin eats at 6, 7, and 8 at night and I think that helps. His first stretch of sleep is usually 7-8 hours.
My biggest problem is that it's very difficult to get G to sleep. He used to be so easy, but now he will not go to sleep without being rocked, and even then he usually cries the second I put him in his crib and I have to start over. I've tried letting him CIO and that doesn't work at all. I dunno what to do, but MIL told me that she had to rock DH to sleep for 2 years so I guess that's where he gets it...
While most things about C and G's sleep is the same, this part is where they are opposite right now. C was so hard to get to sleep when he was 3 weeks to 4 months old. I seriously couldn't put him down or he would wake up and cry...but now he goes down easier. Just know this too will pass!
I am sorry I can't offer more advice. You are not alone. Marcos still wakes up every 3 hours all night long and will only nurse back to sleep. I am exhausted and cannot wait for better times.
Do not feel alone there are lots of us out there. I'm sorry that you are having to go through this though. My best advise to you is to throw that book out the window. I hate that stupid book!
It just makes me feel like I am doing something wrong.
My SIL and I were talking about this the other day. Her first child STTN at 2 months old and never went back. Her second didn't until almost 18 months. Rowen STTN at 5 months but I don't think Phoebe ever will. Up until this week she was waking up 6-7x every single night. I was completely exhausted! And she was taking wonderful 3 hour naps during the day so I think its crap that bad nighttime sleepers are bad nappers too. I finally realized that Phoebe was reverse cycling. She was so distracted by Rowen and everything else around her that she wouldn't eat all day long. She would maybe nurse for a couple of minutes during the day and she was trying to make up for it at night. So I started taking her the her room and nursing her in the rocking chair every 2 hours (with the lights off and the door closed). At first she did not want to nurse then but after a couple of days she started nursing during the day and sleeping during the night.
Phoebe is now getting up 2-3x at night (and I'm thrilled) and she is still hungry at least 2 of those times. When she gets up the 3rd time it is usually because someone woke her up. She goes to bed at 6 every night and sleeps until 1, then she gets up at 4:30 and very rarely at 6 (usually just when Chris is getting ready for work or Rowen gets up for something), and she is up for the day at 7. She takes a good morning nap but she usually takes it about an hour after getting up. She takes one afternoon nap at around 2 but it is only for about 45 minutes. When Rowen is home she takes three 45 minute naps. I don't know if he wakes her up or she just doesn't want to sleep because he is there.
Keep in mind that Reese is still young. It took Rowen quite awhile to develop a good nap schedule. I'm know you have got to be exhausted having to work too. My DH just ask me recently if I was pregnant again because of my attitude. I'm like, "Seriously, I'm freaking exhausted! I haven't slept in over 5 months!"
how does reese nurse during the day?
and Lib - I had no idea that you were still nursing marcos!! You go girl!!
[url=http://www.thebump.com/?utm_source=ticker&utm_medium=UBB&utm_campaign=tickers][img]http://global.thebump.com/tickers/tte03a3.aspx[/img]
~Kimberly & Eric~ April 21, 2008 ~Tensing Pen ~ Negril, Jamaica ~ My Blog: One Sunset at a Time
First of all, I freaking love you girls. Thank you so much for the advice (including the advice to throw the book out the window, which I think is what I need to do at this point). Even though it sucks that we're all dealing with this, it does help to know that I'm not alone, & that I'm not doing something "wrong" for things to be like this. Sometimes it helps me to deal with it just knowing that it's normal, & not something I need to "fix".
Reese has been a crappy eater during the day for a couple weeks, which could definitely be contributing to the night wakings. I will try moving her to a dark environment for feedings (& I will have my mom do the same with the bottle during the day).
Thanks again. You girls are the bestest.
I see I'm a little late, but thought I'd contribute anyways. I might have missed this bc I didn't have time to read all the responses, but...does R still take a paci? Maybe this plays a role- I'm not sure.
Also- I would continue to try to put her down earlier (like 6 or 6:30) several days in a row so she could get used to it. Just like it takes us awhile to get used to new schedules, it's the same for babes. Just a thought.
A few months back H started night waking after STTN since 3 months old. I would give in & go to her, and then it started that she was continuing this every night. I picked up HSHHC again as a refresher, & it reminded me that I was the person who was choosing to continue the night waking, because I was encouraging & enforcing it by going in to feed her. It took 2-3 nights, but after letting her fuss for awhile, she went back to sleep & stopped night waking. Now she is back to STTN from 6pm-7am, but she doesn't take good naps. Usually 2 naps- 45 minutes each. I think she will probably drop the morning nap soon.
I would post more but I'm bumping from work on my "break". Please don't think I'm trying to claim to be any sort of expert here- I only know what my child does & i'm trying to make suggestions based on that.
A friend of mine IS a certified sleep trainer, though...want me to give you her info? She lives in Manhattan.
I didn't take it that way at all. I'm thankful for ANY advice, & to anyone who wants to share their experiences. I did decide (b/c of you, so I'm blaming you if it doesn't work, haha) to put her down early again for a few more nights. It makes sense that she wouldn't adjust in one day, so I'm going to deal with a few more difficult bedtimes to see if things get better. I was thinking I will probably give it a full week, & if she is still waking up after 1/2 hour, I will go back to the regular bedtime.
She does still take a paci when going down for a nap or bedtime. She doesn't have it at all other than that, which I'm happy about, but I know that she definitely associates that with sleep. It's good, because she transitions to sleepy mode when we give it to her, but it's bad since I don't know how we're ever going to get her to fall sleep without it. She was waking up & crying every time it fell out, but I think we have moved past that phase, thank goodness.
I have read the book too, and I have gotten a few things from it....but for what it is worth, Gianna is only a 30 minute napper too..She takes three 30 minute naps a day and that is it.....
We were having a problem with Gianna sleeping at night all of a sudden, where she would wake up constantly and we would have to rock her back to sleep, but DH and I both knew we needed to stop that....so we decided to try the Ferber method.....And I have to say it worked....We could not just let her cry and not go in there (like most books say to do) so we thought the ferber method was good for us, since you are still allowed to go into the room after so many minutes etc....If you are interested in how we did it I will go into further detail..we adjusted the ferber method to our situation and it took about 4 days, but G now sleeps through the night again......
But just so you know you clearly are not in this alone, we have all been there at some point