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Toddlers: 12 - 24 Months
I owe you ladies an Apology!
This discussion has been closed.
Re: I owe you ladies an Apology!
You think because you're from India that you're the only one who can program in C++ and troubleshoot software trading live options? And do math?
Give me a_fucking break. You're an_ass.
::blood boils::
FTR, I believe anyone has the right to hold anti-whatever sentiments. Even if you're an American, you can have anti-American sentiments. And ditto the pp that there are plenty of uneducated, people who "can't count change at a cash register".
But holy hell. Every single one of your arguments is a low blow.
I get what you're saying. And I'm sure it is frustrating that people blame you for "stealing" a job that they personally probably didn't even apply for. I get where you're coming from. For me, the analogy doesn't really work because music and the arts are such a different field from the one you work in and I just don't here things like that. But then, I'm a private music teacher and community performer. I don't play for a major orchestra nor am I a world-famous concert soloist along the lines of Midori or Joshua Bell. I prefer to be in the background, playing second violin or viola is actually my favorite part in orchestral music and my big passion is music theory and music history. Maybe it is different for folks more in the limelight? I don't actually know. But I doubt many people could claim Midori stole anybody's fame - she's awesome and got where she is by being awesome and by practicing about a gazillion hours a day. That is a choice she made. I made the choice to focus on music theory and history, so I'm not a world-class performer and I'm okay and quite happy with that. It takes all kinds of folks to make a world, ya know?
I guess what I want for you is just to try and focus on other aspects of the culture that could help you have a positive experience in the US. I don't want your experience to be negative. Near where I live in Italy, there's graffiti on a wall that has a "US dollar sign = Nazi Swatstika = Jewish Star of David." There was more graffiti that said "Go Home Yankee." Now at first when I saw that was I offended? Yes, and a little scared too! I mean, there are folks writing graffiti equating the US to Nazis. Why wouldn't I be scared and offended? But then I had to question their sanity since they also equated Naziism to Judaism (and if you know anything about the Holocaust, you know that is ludicrous). And then I had to realize, that not every Italian feels that way. In fact, all of my neighbors are awesome and I don't think any of them feel that way. My landlord is the sweetest woman and I adore her and I think she likes me pretty well too. She doesn't think I'm a Nazi or that Americans are trying to take over her world. There's these older women that live near us that come out of their yard and greet me with a kiss on both cheeks and a kiss for my little boy every time they see us. And one family that lives near us bought a puppy because they saw how much their kids like our dog
And another neighbor felt comfortable enough with us to ask to borrow lawn tools and she stayed and had a great conversation with me for a while - okay, it was a funny conversation because I spoke half Italian and she spoke half English and we might have managed to understand about 10% of what the other was saying because at that point I was still new here and I wasn't fluent, and even now that I know more Italian she speaks so fast that I have to ask her to slow down so I can understand her. lol
All I'm trying to say is that surely we have something in common even though I'm American and you're Indian. Surely there's something in life we can agree on or laugh about. Will there always be those obnoxious people out there that say stupid stuff? Yeah. But they're everywhere (I offer up graffiti example #1 as evidence). I am sorry if your coworkers are leaving a bad taste in your mouth when it comes to Americans. You know them better than I do, and you're probably right - you probably get more work done than them. But lots of us have good work ethics. And a lot of us even like math and science (I seriously wanted to minor in astro-physics, but didn't have the time because my music major requirements kept me at about 21 credits a semester and that was about all I could handle while keeping my GPA up high enough to keep my scholarships).
Lots of us are great, if I do say so myself! And I won't deny that lots of Americans like to talk talk talk. And maybe, just maybe, some of us wouldn't mind talk talk talking over a cup of coffee with you
Lots of us would like to be your friend.
Seriously? ::headdesk::
I was on your side (sort of) but I'm starting to agree with the ones calling you a douchebagging a$$...
I DO understand the workings of global economy (as much as someone can, it is SO complex I believe very few people in the world actually understand it), and NEVER do I blame immigrants for stealing jobs Americans are too lazy to do.
You saying it's a fad to blame the American economy's downfall on other cultures is HUGELY insulting to me and most every American I know. Even a person sans tact should understand that that comment would not be well-received, nor does it even make sense. I'm starting to believe that you may actually be a racist now.
How am I a racist just because I talked about a fad? Ok, this whole thread is not making sense to me anymore. It started with an apology and it just spiraled into a totally another debate. I was just trying to explain what I knew about outsourced jobs and hoped some of the posters understood at least some of it. There is no agenda behind it..most of you who think I am a racist, superior or whatever..have no idea... I am just discussing an unpopular topic....
I am not convincing anyone about anything. Just throwing my 2 cents about why some things are the way they are. Obviously this is a very unpopular opinion and coming from a very unpopular person on the board now.
::pulling my hair out::
What race is American?
Thank you. Talking over a cup of coffee is lovely! Not talk talk talking while others are working seriously which could impact the jobs of everyone around (imagine someone making a huge error which could cause loss of important business)..not cool. Hope you know what I mean.
Maybe I should have worded it differently. I wasn't saying she has to love it here. If she plans on being here awhile, she needs to start seeing some of the positive to being here. What's wrong is always available but so is what's right.
Trust me, I'm very deep in the immigrant circle. I know why she thinks the way she does. There is a whole lot of truth to what she is saying but you can apply every single complaint she made about America to any country. That includes her home country and mine.
I don't like the back and forth debate debate on forums because it can feel like you're just spinning your wheels.
However, July_2009 I have to say that your posts come off as if you feel superior to most people around you (with the exception of Asians who you seem to respect). Yes, you are a hot commodity because you are an engineer. The way you worded it came off as you're doing a America a favor by coming over here to work. I get you and I know where you are coming from, trust me. Your approach is off putting regardless what country you're in.
So really your chatty American co-workers are interrupting your bump time at work?
Maybe Americans are just better multi-taskers.
Not really..most of them are out for holidays...and we have a software code freeze until Jan 4th...which means...we cannot do any serious work until all the big wigs are back from vacation. Just chill and pray there are no production crashes... thanks for asking.
I think I understand where you are coming from but you have to realize how insulting your opinion is to the Americans on this board. You are basing your opinion on all Americans based on a select few. You refuse to recognize (or at least admit) that there are ignorant/lazy/chatty/stupid people all over the world. I'm sure there are people like that in India just like there are people like that in Africa, UK, Asia, and Australia.
Yes there are ignorant Americans. But there are plenty of Americans that are good, open minded, wonderful people.
Well said.
Surely you know my question was facetious. However, I would like to add that the reason no one accepted your apology is that your remarks were not "insensitive," as you like to classify them, they were genuine reflections of your generalized opinion of an entire nation of people. People are disgusted by the fact that you continued to insult the intelligence of Americans by saying we can't do math, couldn't possibly be smart enough to hold a job as lofty as yours, and that we were basically rude, offensive, obnoxious people.
And the fact that you apologized but continued to make those types of remarks completely destroys the credibility and sincerity of your apology, by proving that you hold those prejudices against us.
If I made some off-hand remarks about how all Indians were completely helpless, complained about their "stupid" accents, and made remarks about how slow and unhelpful they were, I would expect that you would take offense as well.
I really, really appreciate what you're saying, but when she basically tells us that no Americans can do math or program computers...well, I'm not even sure what to say about it (which is why I resorted to calling her an_ass).
I wish there was such outrage expressed whenever someone started a "people on welfare are lazy, drive SUVs and bilk the system" or "immigrants can't be bothered to learn english" unpopular opinion thread. I feel like those inaccurate stereotypes all get the pile ons in agreement.
I just do not wish to elongate the thread any further. But to be honest, I would not be even bothered by your observations about Indians...because they are true.And I mean it. Indian call centers are crap! Even I have problems dealing with their slowness being Indian myself, I can imagine how frustrating it can be for an American. You are very right about it. I sometimes wonder what these corporate bigwigs are thinking hiring at Indian call centers.
When it comes to communicating...Americans are the BEST. I mean it. Even if I put my entire life's hard work at this job, I cannot become an MD or any thing bigger than a Project Manager because my communication skills are nothing like the Americans. They are the world's best at Marketing.
How could you think that Americans don't want engineering or programming jobs? I have met many computer engineers and programmers that can't find jobs because the jobs have been sent to countries that have a lower cost of living. It's a bit disheartening that corporate America doesn't see the value in their own country. Cheaper labor means a bigger bottom line for them. There is a lot of talent here in those fields but why invest in Universities or research if college students are choosing other fields that have a job market here?
I agree that Americans are loud, rude, opinionated, pushy. America has always embraced the philosophy of individuality, self-reliance, and free thought. Many cultures focus on working as a cohesive group. I can see how these ideas can cause culture clash.
Every culture has value. Enjoy the beauty that America has to offer.
July, I'd like to address this to you, primarily.
Welcome to the United States. Enjoy your free speech. But don't expect to make friends with that attitude.
Wow after reading all of this.....I feel like I need a drink...and I drink very rarely. Don't really have anything to say on the subject that has not already been said over and over and over....
Who's with me??
Count me in... but hey, it's friday, so that's okay.
I don't even know where to start, so I'm not even going to try.
Yeah. I'm not even going to try.
So July. . .
You've said Asians are good workers, Americans are loud and obnoxious, and Indians are slow and crap communicators. What about Canadians??? Do me next!
Indians are Asians
"When it comes to communicating...Americans are the BEST. I mean it. Even if I put my entire life's hard work at this job, I cannot become an MD or any thing bigger than a Project Manager because my communication skills are nothing like the Americans. They are the world's best at Marketing. "
This may be the best backhanded compliment I've ever seen.
Canadians are always nice. Every single one I've met. True story.
And then you met me. *cue evil laughter* MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I do know a bunch of coders actually. Worked with them in the financial district of NYC. Some Indian, American, Canadian, Muslim etc. I can gaurantee you that what you are saying is complete ignorance. Those where some of the finest people I've ever worked with & probably would be ashamed to know that a fellow coder was so ignorant.
I'm curious. Why are you here in America? Why, if you don't care for our culture so much, go back to India or another country? What brought you here in the 1st place besides work?
Very late response to this post from a not at all frequent poster here.
I don't agree that July or Indians are the cause for the loss of jobs here however I felt the need to offer a different perspective on the availability of the jobs.
I'm a programmer...been one for 11 years now. There are lots of American programmers who know a lot of lauguages. There always has been. When I started college 15 years ago there was a surge in the major. Its simply not true that the programming (or even call center jobs) in India are because Americans didn't want them. If that were true, I wouldn't have seen so many of my colleagues and friends getting laid off and terminated. These were/are not voluntary departures. The labor is cheaper in India and for so many corporations, it's about the bottom line. I work and communicate with several of my company's associates from India...and communication is an issue - so much so that they often don't understand what needs to be delivered. But they are nice people and hard workers. I shudder to think they believe they're superior to their American counterparts.
So the shining star in this is that the quality isn't the same. The bottom line is starting to be negatively affected because companies are losing clients due to shotty work (and customer complaints where call centers are concerned). It'll be a while, maybe 10 more years or so, but the work will be back.
I agree totally. Whenever there is a communication issue, quality of work gets affected. And I agree Indian call centers are very poorly rated. I do believe the programming jobs/call center jobs will be back in America, it is a matter of time. I am also glad big corporations like Dell have closed call centers in India as soon as they realized this one size solution does not fit for all.
I am also aware that there have always been programmers here in the US and very smart ones too. But the demand and supply here was skewed and corporations had to seek talents from elsewhere. And I also believe it will change very soon and we will see a huge boom/interest in maths and sciences in the US.
I am aware cultural factors play a HUGE role in quality of work and work ethics are very different around the world. Also, it will be a good thing for third world countries for American jobs to go back to where they belong because the false inflation and COL will be adjusted in their home countries. Do you know urban folks in India cannot afford to buy homes anymore in India after this software boom there? There is almost a 350% increase in the prices of homes and land. People living on government job salaries( which pay very less typically are really struggling). There is an other side of outsourcing that not many of us are aware of. The inflation/economic problems have two sides to it.
I'll drink to that... but it's only 3pm here so I think I'll wait at least 2 hours.
I'm aware of that. I'm smart. I have taken multiple sociology, anthropology and cultural sensitivity courses at the college level. I figured it was you who didn't know that, actually. People generally use the term Asian NOT to describe Indians, but to describe those from the Orient. Since you were the one who seemed to differentiate between Asians and yourself, I just assumed you were doing the same.
Don't be a smart-ass with me. You may know C++, but I'm sure I could talk circles around you when it comes to culture.
I am not sure why you are taking it personally. BTW...I have a very good chinese friend and he cringes when anyone refers to chinese as from the Orient. He says...things are oriental...not people..so go figure.
Since you know so much about culture, why don't you tell me more about Asian cultures? And I have noticed from the tri boards that you have been very rude to me..not sure if you remember anything at all...but you responded quite rudely to me about 3-4 posts I made asking about simple questions.
EOM.
I can't answer your questions about "Asian" culture. Every country is different. As are all people, which is one major thing that you seem to not be understanding, since you are enjoying painting entire countries with the same brush.
I do not remember being rude to you at all, in fact I really don't think I remember ever commenting on any of your posts. But I'm also not one to hold an e-grudge, either. The tri boards were AGES ago, I can barely remember what I posted last week.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but people are people, regardless of where they are from, what color their skin is, what religion they practice, how much money they make, etc. There are those who reek of awesomeness, and those who are douche nozzles. The sooner we all realize this, the sooner we can go on with our day and realize that generalizations suck, and so do people who make them.
The end.