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Natural Birth
Natural Birth discussion on 2nd tri
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Natural Birth discussion on 2nd tri
Jesus radak, its time for a margherita and a walk in the sunshine. You really are ridiculous.
Okay Lanie, you are right. Every single woman values childbirth exactly the same. ::rolls eyes::
You really think that a woman who goes in for an elective c/s section because they would like to avoid vaginal childbirth altogether values the process just the same as a woman who hopes to have a child vaginally, ends up having a c/s for the health of the child? You really believe that a woman who dedicates her pregnancy to learning as much as she can about the process of childbirth holds childbirth in just as much esteem as someone who chooses not to learn about the process at all? (and for the record, I am not talking about pregnancy or the point where the baby emerges in one way or another from the body, I am talking about valuing the labor itself only)
I think that some women think the way the baby emerges is very important or of high value, and will likely aim for that to happen. Some women will go through heck and high water to have it happen, some the pain is too much and they won't. Some women in transition may believe that the pain, is too much and the importance or value in delivering without meds is outweighed by the intense pain.
You are right, I haven't had my baby yet. I don't know how this labor is going to go, or at the time of my childbirth how much value I am going to place on the labor v. the pain. I am not making any assurances I am going to go natural in any kind of way. Heck a c/s may even have to be an option. I have NO IDEA. But, I will say that I place a high value on natural birth, I am trying to prepare myself in every way to be ready for it, with a healthy diet, positioning exercises, yoga, reading books, learning relaxation techniques etc. Does any of this assure me of getting a natural birth. NO, but I can say I value natural birth and the process more than the woman I know that wishes they could avoid it all together. Some people place no value in natural birth, and I am not offended by that or feel judge.
If you really truly think, that every single woman places the same exact value on the vaginal labor and delivery of a child, even if they decide to completely forgo it, then there really is nothing more to discuss. I will say I respectfully disagree. I think, without judgment, women place different value on the act of delivery. I think they place different value on skin to skin contact after delivery, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, etc. etc. and I don't think there is anything wrong with that in itself, it leads to some interesting debates. But I think denying that people place different values on things, including the labor process is ignorant. I am not, and never have said that a woman who gets an epi places less of a value on childbirth than a woman who has a completely med-free childbirth. I merely said that a woman's actions and attitude before labor can be an indicator on how much value she places upon it. For example, if she elects to avoid labor all together she probably doesn't value it.
I really think I have started beating a dead horse a while ago. I really don't have much more to add.
And yes, I could go for a HUGE drink, margaritas are not my thing, but I would take a martini and a walk in the sunshine sounds nice. Maybe in about four months.
Really, who cares? There is not one correct way to feel about childbirth. Everyone has their own personal and cultural attitudes about childbirth and none is better than the other. If a woman sees childbirth as a spiritual miracle, great. If she sees it as a means to an end to have a baby in her arms, great. If she chooses to squat in the woods or have an elective cesarean, great.
If you support NB because it's what is right for you, then it doesn't matter what "values" other women have or by which "process" they choose to have their baby (and let me tell you, a cesarean is still a process). If you support access to NB because you support a woman's right to make decisions for herself, then again, none of this matters. If you support access to NB because you believe it is the healthiest option for low-risk pregnancies, then again, a person's "values" aren't the issue. If you support NB because you need to validate your own choices and world view and you feel better about yourself when you judge other people then yes, I suppose their values matter.
What I see here is an awful lot of energy being expended for you to judge what you assume are other women's values and not much being expended about a broken maternity care system that forces women into unneeded and unwanted interventions and that places profit and liability concerns above the medical needs of a mother and her child. Let's talk about that some more instead of pointing fingers at women who choose cesareans of their own accord.
You are right. You are totally right. I don't care. I don't judge and I don't care. I am only saying. Really only saying that some women value the process, some women don't. It doesn't matter. I have said it from the beginning. To some women the laboring process is important, they highly value it. To some women the process in which the baby comes out is not important. They get a healthy baby either way, they don't care how it comes out. It is a personal choice, and there is really nothing wrong with it.
But, to say "I value this, some women don't, I don't get it" as PP did, isn't fraught with judgment. And to deny that some women care, or place a high value on the process and some women don't is silly. This isn't a competition of who has the better birth process, it isn't a judgmental thing. It is merely saying - I think this way is important to me, I value it. You don't think that way is important to you, you don't value it. That is odd to me. That is the only point I was trying to make. Women value the process differently. They place different importance on how the baby comes out. I think that is true, and I think acknowledging that is fine. I may not have said it eloquently. But, if you look back that is all I was trying to say.
Radak - You need to just quit before you dig the hole deeper. Saying women who make alternative choices from you have different values about childbirth implies your values are superior. Even if you say no one value is superior, you're giving that implication. When someone says "I just have different values from you" do you really not think that implies my value is better than yours???? You really can't be that dense.
All women value childbirth in the same way because we're all hoping for the best outcome for mom and baby. It's impossible to not value the process by which our babies are born. I absolutely know that my friend who had an elective c/s valued her child's birth in the same way as I did. We just chose a different path.
Talk like this just furthers the divide between those seeking unmedicated/low intervention births from other birthing moms. And it makes natural birthers sound arrogant, quite frankly.
Now cue today's "why are people so negative when I talk about my natural birth plans?" post.
Of course she valued the BIRTH of her child the same as you did. I am not talking about the birth. That is why I keep using the word process. In hindsight I think the word labor is more appropriate. To some women going through labor is important to some it isn't. This has nothing to do with how important, or how much they value their baby. It has nothing to do with how important or how much they value motherhood or anything else. Women value the laboring process differently. Some value it more and some value it less, and no I don't think that because I value labor I think those who don't are inferior to me. Maybe some women do. I don't. They came to their decision the way they did.
There is this stupid competition that women feel they need to have as women. I think its all ridiculous. Birth isn't a competition. Women should educate themselves. They should make the decision that is right for them. I just don't think judgment should come into it. But, lets not pussyfoot around what reality is. either. Some think labor is important, some don't. Don't you think the question why is that is important for women to discuss. If it is education we should talk about it, if it is fear from society it should be discussed, if it is just personal choice then that should be talked about in an open way without judgment.
As sick as I am of the weekly "what is natural birth" threads, I will say that there is a difference between a woman who goes into a hospital in labour totally uninformed and essentially lets the nurses and doctors make the decisions for her, and one who goes in with a birth plan (whether that contains interventions or not) and advocates for herself and the decisions she makes. I'm not going to speak for anyone else, so I'll draw on my own experiences.
When I had my daughter (who is now 8), I was the first woman. I was induced due to low fluids and when the doctor asked me at 2cm if I was ready for an epidural, I told him that I wanted to wait until I was at least 4 or 5cm. When he told me I was going to be there for a while and I might as well be comfortable, I said okay and got the epidural at 2cm. I was winging it and wasn't confident enough in my decisions to stick by them. If they told me I should do something, I did it because I trusted that they knew better than I did and had my best interests in mind.
With this pregnancy, I'm the second woman. I'm not naive enough anymore to believe everything doctors tell me and I have learned that in order to advocate for myself, I have to be well informed. The kicker is that, when women are informed, many (but not all, by any means) realize that one intervention often leads to another which can have consequences for both mother and baby and thus decide to go the med free/intervention free route. Some women decide to call this natural birth because to say med free/intervention free birth everytime you refer to it is quite a mouthful. It does not mean that all other births are unnatural. If I call some guy who is 6'7 tall, it doesn't mean that anyone who is not 6'7 is short. It also doesn't mean that I valued my first birth experience any less than I will value this one, but I will say that I felt very out of control with my first and I expect to feel much differently when I give birth this time.
Radak - I'm saying all women value the process of their baby's birth. Some just have a different vision of how that happens. With the advent of medical technology, women have choices. Also, you can't believe that women who get epidurals somehow avoid the process of labor? They go through the same process. How hard is that to understand? Even women who have c/s's often experience labor. They go through a process as well.
I really don't know how women giving birth don't see labor as important. It's a pretty fundamental step to having a baby. They just have a different approach to how that labor happens.
You've done nothing in your follow-up posts to indicate that you're not an arrogant, judgmental natural birther: "But, lets not pussyfoot around what reality is. either. Some think labor is important, some don't." ::huge eyeroll::
You're right. I was just there for the food.
I think that most women giving birth look at it as a life altering event not just a medical procedure to remove something. I got pitocin with both of my kids. I believe you got pitocin as well if I'm not mistaken. Why did you even let your MW administer it if you were 9 with a bit of lip left? Why not just wait it out? Get your full spiritual experience?
PROCESS
VALUE
Wow. 'Cause THAT's not judgy at all.
You don't find it hilarious that this board has posts saying things like "moms who get an epidural don't value birth like I do" and posts saying "why do people get defensive when I talk about natural birth and tell them that drugs are bad?"
Because I do. It's funny.
Respectfully, you are wrong. I don't think the crack addict who is so hopped up on junk she does realize she gave birth values her birthing process the way that I do. I don't think the woman who gives birth then discards her child in a dumpster values her process the way that I do. I am pretty sure that the 16 year old girl who births on her school toilet, leaves her child at juvenile detention facility door and goes to a rock concert with her boyfriend values the process a woman's body goes through during labor, the release of oxytocin, the symphony of contractions, the joy of examining a the placenta after-birth, quite the same way some women do.
There are women that find no value in natural birth. They think it is unnecessary and stupid. I know this because they tell me this. There are woman who highly value natural birth. There are others that value elective c/s, they can plan what doctor they have, they can plan their maternity leave, their out of town dear loved ones can be there, etc. There are women who highly value nubian (I remember a post stating that a woman was going to name her child that after her birth). Women who swear by epidurals (right now in my life I probably don't value an epidural the same way my friends do). A woman whose child was saved by a medical procedure is likely going to value that medical procedure more than another person. I really don't care if someone doesn't value natural child birth. I value it. I am secure in my decision. I don't understand why some of you are reluctant just to say that women place different values on having to go through the process of natural labor, of labor with interventions, labor with medication, emergency c/s, of planned c/s. They are of different importance and different value to each of us. I don't know why just admitting that simple fact is judgmental.
I understand that a woman who has a c/s goes through a process. When I use the word process I am only talking about the contractions of the uterus, the dilation of the cervix, the hormones and endorphins that are released, and the act pushing of a baby out of your body. Some people highly value that process, some people don't care what way the baby is born. Some people don't value that process at all.
Where was this said? I must have missed something, or this is a gross mis-characterization because I have never seen that said. ever. And I hope to god you aren't saying that I made that assertion. I would never say anything like that and I don't believe that. I would say that mom's who get elective c/s probably don't value the process of labor (contractions, labor pains, the act of pushing a baby out of your body, possibly tearing or being cut, the hormonal release, the endorphin release etc.) the same way that I do, because she is specifically electing another option of childbirth. They are two totally different things.
PROCESS, people.
PROCESS!
You're right Radak, I should have said that women who value their children also value how they are born. Bringing in crack addicts and babies in toilets just make you sound even more ridiculous.
The more you talk about values the more it makes me think of this comparison. If someone were to say that breastfeeding moms have different values about feeding their children than formula feeding mom, what would that make you think? It would make you think that those moms who breastfeed are better because they value breast milk. I think that kind of comment is rude and judgmental. And I think your comments about childbirth are exactly the same and incredibly judgmental.
And in all of this I wonder what about the women who can't experience the process you speak of? You really emphasize this full process but there are a lot of women out there that can't have that. What about them? I guess they should just feel like even bigger failures.
No, see, they VALUE the PROCESS. They just can't experience the PROCESS. It's not their fault that their VALUE of the PROCESS can't help them have the PROCESS...but they still VALUE it!
VALUE!
PROCESS!
Marge - I don't think its true either that woman who value their babies value the way in which their children were born. There are women who have had to have c/s. The next time around they decided to VBAC. Doesn't that indicate that they hold vaginal birth at a higher value than a c/s? They think vaginal birth is better, for whatever reason?
Sure, not all woman's birth choices show their preferences or what they value. Some woman must have a certain method of birth. And some woman might highly value a certain method of childbirth, but because of other factors they choose a different way. A woman may highly value an epi, but because of her fear of needles or because of fused disks or some other problem she must have natural childbirth. She may not especially value NB, but she will choose to have it. Sure, after she is done she is very likely to treasure her experience above all else, but that doesn't mean she will value NB itself and rave about it to other women. She may say, I had to have a NB and it was excruciating, get the epi!!!!
How many times do people try to talk you out of NB, or rave to you about the value of an epi. Oh my god Epi, best invention ever. There shouldn't be judgment in all of this. Women should stop judging each other's choices and just accept that we all make the best decisions for us. But, we should also be able to discuss why we have made the decisions we have, and our misunderstanding of others. By doing this we are only further educating ourselves, which is the most important thing we can do as women.Marge, honestly, I think we are talking about two different things. You are saying that every woman looks back at the birth of their child and appreciates, loves, values that experience, however the baby came out. I would agree for the very vast majority of women that is true. Some women are disappointed with their experience. Either way, that isn't what I am talking about.
What I am saying is different woman place different importance or value on c/s, NB, and medicated vaginal birth. And that understanding why we do that, why some women hold C/S in such high esteem - as such a great option, and other women think medicated childbirth is the best option, while still other women choose to have a NB is an important thing for us as women to understand. Is it due just to preference, is it due to lack of education on the subject, is it due to societal influence and pressures etc.? All of this is important for us to understand and talk about, how can we do that when we don't first acknowledge our differences first, without judgment?
natural childbirth definition
: a system of managing childbirth in which the mother receives preparatory education in order to remain conscious during and assist in delivery with minimal or no use of drugs or anesthetics
A method of childbirth in which medical intervention is minimized and the mother often practices relaxation and breathing techniques to control pain and ease delivery.
Copyright ? 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
::clapping::
We all have free choice. If a woman decides to call a c-section natural to her. That's okay. I had pitocin but still gave birth. I view it as natural. I did not have epidural or any meds. Had a doula, did squats, lunges and walking at the hospital. That does not make me more of a woman than others!
Most countries of the world do not have epidural, pitocin or meds during labor & delivery. Most use midwifes and doulas, but since America has been so much into technology, fast paced society and most people do not educate about how to prevent unnecessary interventions.
Most women are afraid they will fail - I was - really terrified of giving birth and thought I would have a c-section. I educated myself, did techinques I researched, used a doula. Some women's attitude are like "what the heck, lets get them out as quickly as we can"
Some are scared their down there will not be the same. I was too - Well it is the same. Along with Kegel exercises, It is superb and my orgasms have been off the chain! Yep I said so!
A friend of mine had an epidural and could not walk for 5 days, cos they made a mistake and had to go through therapy. Just seeing the tears in her eyes and depression, it broke my heart. She is now terrified of having an epidural and vows to go natural. Couple friends of mine say they have back pain from the epidural. It does not happen to everyone but it does happen. I have had some friends who have had c-section and natural birth say "Going med free and minimal intervention was the best, recovery was faster and I feel more attached to my baby"
So ladies if you call your birth natural regardless of how your birth was, its really up to you! However way you choose to say at the end we are all women and should encourage one another!
http://www.jakeala.etsy.com