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Natural Birth
Natural Birth discussion on 2nd tri
interesting, you might want to have a look what people consider natural birth.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Natural Birth discussion on 2nd tri
I read that as well and it was interesting. I was 19 when i had my first and i wanted as natural as possible birth. I ended up needing pitocin at like the ninth hour of birth because i wasnt progressing well and i did not want a c-section. I didnt use any pain meds though. At the time i didnt understand the full definition of natural childbirth now 7 years later i do and as we are expecting our 2nd i know more about it and want a total natural birth. The 2nd tri board in itself is interesting and annoying lol.. the same things over and over again
Loss #6 2014 Loss #7 (chemical) 2014
~DS Born! 2009~
~DD Born! 2013~
It's amazing how differently women value their childbirth experience. Like, some are just happy to lay there and let everything happen to them rather than participate in their birthing. I only find that odd because I value childbirth in such a different light... a spiritual light. I just find it very interesting... that it is nothing but a medical operation to some and a very deep, emotional and spiritual "high" for others, lol. I guess that's just what it comes down to when discussing different birthing options: Those who greatly value such a miraculous event and those who don't really think it to be such a miraculous event and just want it over with ASAP.
Matthew Kevin
7/31/83-7/20/11
Met 1/8/00
Engaged 4/21/06
Married 9/29/07
Two beautiful legacies: Noah Matthew (2 yrs) and Chloe Marcella (8 mos)
Day Three
Wow. You must totally love your baby more than I love mine.
I don't think you meant this to come off as it did but it was not a good thing. I think probably every woman regards their birth as emotional and spiritual- they are having their baby! Whether they have a c-section or squat in a field or get an epi as soon as they enter- how does that mean they value their experience any less? To some the best "birth experience" means NO interventions and to feel every single thing. To others it means NO pain and that should be respected as well. The only time I get upset about any decision any woman makes is when they don't do even just a little research. But that's not really my business either!
All women want a healthy baby at the end, but the meanst to get there vary greatly and I'm happy we live in a time and place where we have the CHOICE (for the most part) of HOW we bring our babies into this world.
Loss #6 2014 Loss #7 (chemical) 2014
~DS Born! 2009~
~DD Born! 2013~
Matthew Kevin
7/31/83-7/20/11
Met 1/8/00
Engaged 4/21/06
Married 9/29/07
Two beautiful legacies: Noah Matthew (2 yrs) and Chloe Marcella (8 mos)
Day Three
Wow. Project much?
Everything you bolded is an opinion about childbirth - not parenting.
Hmm, I don't think she meant it that way. Maybe replace "value" with "view" and it would sound less judgy.
I don't know why there is disagreement over the fact that women have different views on childbirth. Obviously getting a baby at the end is the goal for everyone- some women want to feel everything and experience each moment and some just want the baby out. Kinda like taking the highway versus the scenic route? One way isn't categorically better, it varies from woman to woman.
I can accept differences of opinion on what constitutes a natural birth... Some use the term to imply "no pain meds," others use it to imply "no meds at all," and others have the idea of "no one touches my body whatsoever!" I don't mind these shades of gray.
What confuses me, personally, is when people use the term "natural birth" to describe a vaginal birth. This has happened to me a few times...a woman says she had a natural birth and I eagerly ask what techniques worked for her and she says, "I got the epidural right away and watched TV!" Hmm. Not judging her birth choices, just saying that it is challenging when the term is applied differently by different mamas. Is it so weird to say, "I had a vaginal birth?"
I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond to yet another one of these pissing contests. I guess I'm a masochist.
Natural birth is a crap term. It's a crap term because it implies other births are unnatural. And it's a crap term because it means so many different things to different people.
A while back when us c/s mamas were objecting to natural and "pure" births, the NBers here said, why do you care what we call our births? So I say to you NBers, why do you care what other people call their births? If someone considers it a natural birth with pitocin or a natural birth with an epi, why do you care? Does it take away from your childbirth experience? Does it make you birth any less special? The only reason I can see NBers caring about what is natural and what isn't is because they want the validation that their birth was more special because it was, well, "natural." Whatever that means.
You're never going to get a universal definition of natural childbirth. Because even when you get intervention-free, someone will say that a birth cannot be natural in a hospital.
FWIW, I would tell people I wanted a pain med-free and low intervention childbirth. I didn't get that because of HELLP and a breach baby. But I still don't consider my c/s as unnatural. Human beings have the natural gift of reason. Reason and intelligence has given us a great gift of finding a way of saving both mom and baby in childbirth when something goes wrong when previously people would have died. Yes, it didn't exist at the dawn of man. But neither did OB's and we don't see OB assisted birth as unnatural. Neither did hospitals but again, most people don't think birthing in a hospital is unnatiral. This is why natural is a crap term.
Sarah - 12/23/2008
Alex - 9/30/2011
"I say embrace the total geek in yourself and just enjoy it. Life is too short to be cool." - Shirley Manson, Garbage
Nope she meant value. She implies that women who forgo pain relief must value the experience more.
I have had both natural and medicated births. I valued all of them. All of them were emotional and miraculous. But she must value childbirth more than me because she want to feel the pain.
Like, some are just happy to lay there and let everything happen to them rather than participate in their birthing.
Gee, I also had an epidural and I fully participated in my child's birth. I find that on this board some posters seem to think that once you get an epidural there is some fairy that helps get the baby out and that the women are not doing any 'work'.
But you're assuming that women who made different choices than you don't want to be active participants in their births. In fact, many of them are actively making choices and participating in their care.
I choose to have an epidural. It wasn't pushed on me. I didn't have nurses bugging me to get one or greedy anesthesiologists circling in the halls. I made that choice. Me. No one else. And I did it as someone who knew all the reasons not to get one, who had done all the research, who had worked in L&D as a doula and spent my whole pregnancy preparing for a med-free birth. So it wasn't because I was uneducated or didn't value my birth experience the same way you do.
Oh and it wasn't because I wanted to watch movies either. I have been with many women when they made the choice to get an epidural and not once did any of them say "you know, I heard Princess Diaries is on ABC Family right now. I'd better request my epidural before I miss the makeover scene."
I understand what you're saying and I think there are people who would say the opposite of natural is unnatural however I would NOT. If someone said they didn't have a natural birth (which meaning varies from person to person to person) I wouldn't EVER think or say their birth was "unnatural" I would simply equate it with they had more medical intervention and or medication. I think I use the term natural birth interchangeably with med-free & low-intervention birth but sometimes it's just easier to say NB. But if what you are suggesting is that we simply stop using the term "natural birth" then I just wonder even if we changed the name of this board (I really don't care either way) and only used the terms "med-free/intervention free" if people will still get upset?
I think the OP of this post was simply saying, hey, here's a topic we are ALL (obviously) very interested and passionate in and it's going on in the 2nd trimester board- check it out if you want
I agree there is NO (and stated in another post) 100% agreement on this board or any other place on what constitues a natural birth. That's why it's such a deeply personal topic and no right or wrong answer.
NB debates will always become heated, the same as breastfeeding vs. formula feeding, bed-sharing, politics and all the other things along those lines. But it's hard being in such a minority and feeling like you can't win no matter what you say...
Loss #6 2014 Loss #7 (chemical) 2014
~DS Born! 2009~
~DD Born! 2013~
Just FYI, for autumnbride... I don't think people really care about labels until you say something like you just did. I really don't care if you want to call your birth miraculous, natural, med free or a car wreck. I don't care what you call yours, but I get to label mine and whether or not it compares to yours doesn't matter.
I want you to reread what you wrote and understand that that is why people get defensive about terms. You are why. And every other week when you get the inevitable "Why are people defensive about natural birth?" post going on? Just realize that you are why. And whenever you get to giggle and say "well I really don't know how to communicate on the internetz" and laugh off whatever asinine statement you've made (and whew, you've made some freaky statements) just realize you're the problem and probably causing a lot of women more self doubt.
I'm hoping for an HBAC because that is what I want. But I get that that is not what everyone wants. It's crazy how you can see two points at once isn't it? Just nutsy.
amen
I am going to have to agree with the pp who said some people look at the process of birth (not the life they created, but the process of contractions, pain, pushing etc.) as something to endure, or get through as quickly as possible. There are women don't think much more than I am going to go in and get an epi, and the nurses will tell me what to do. They don't educate themselves on this process, much less ENJOY the process of childbirth. They will not learn the techniques used to get high off the birthing process, or to receive it with the most emotional openness. I believe this is because, unfortunately, too many women will go into thinking it is a medical procedure, and a scary, painful process. I don't think that is right or wrong (well I do believe that a lack of education in some situations is wrong), just a different way of looking at it.
Some women do not embrace the miracle of the process. I am not saying they aren't good mommies pre and post birth, but that the process to them takes little of their attention or interest. I think, the vast majority of women choosing natural or birth without medical interventions, have thought a lot about the process, embrace the process and for most women (and I am sure not all women) they see the process itself, your body doing what your body was built to do, as a miraculous event.
I believe some women wish to avoid the process all together - such as the too posh to push c/s with a tummy tuck after women. This is a stark contrast than the women in the bathtub cuddling with her husband wanting to get the most out of the experience. To get the deepest experience ever.
I have spoken to women who, when I explain in the 60's and 70's women, many times, are knocked out completely, and their children delivered by forceps, say, GOD I wish they could do that to me. This could not be further from the way natural birth mothers to be see the process. I would go so far as to say that when speaking to other women they defiantly VALUE the process of birth differently than I do. Again, that isn't to say they love their baby any less, they love being pregnant any less, they will be better or worse parents or anything at all. It just means when looking at the PROCESS itself, and only the PROCESS, they value it differently than I do.
radak, why do you get to even hint at what people do or do not value.
::looks up::
Maybe we need a chart. Autumn and radak can chart someone's value.
For example (using radak's own language)
and 8/10 value would be "the women in the bathtub cuddling with her husband wanting to get the most out of the experience. To get the deepest experience ever."
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWTTTTTTTTTFFFFFFFFFFFFF?
Lanie shouldn't you know by now that your experience is only deep (and wet) if you are cuddling in the tub with your man.
Radak also let us know that only women who have unmedicated births truly value and are educated about the process. My last two births were valueless and shallow.
I'm wondering what she thinks of my DCP's birth which was an unplanned natural birth at home on the carpet in the living room. The ambulance arrived just in time to help with the clean up. The baby was born so quickly she didn't have time to a) call her husband home b) get into a bathtub with him or c) truly VALUE the experience.
*** should have crossed her legs!
See, I want to think that people advocate for NB because they want every woman to be empowered to make the best choices for herself and her baby, whatever they might be, and because they want evidence-based care that promotes the healthiest outcomes for mothers and infants.
But then I read posts like this and I have to think that for some people, it's really just misogynistic nonsense about judging other women in order to validate their own choices, cloaked in pretty language about nature and spirituality.
Iris is having my baby.
Holy frak, radak, you actually believe this crap you have posted?
490000 or so babies are born every day, most without any kind of intervention. It is a commonplace event, not a miracle.
Good luck with meeting your ridiculous expectations of the birthing process.
Definitely agree. I had to make sure she was pg and hadn't had her kid yet. Trust me when I say that not getting the type of birth you hope to get is awful. I had wanted a med free, vaginal birth with DS. Because of HELLP I had to have an emergency c/s with no labor. I was very sick. I would never wish that on anyone but I am living proof that just because you may want to experience the process, it doesn't mean that you will.
Radak's post screams of someone setting themselves up for disappointment. I hope you get the experience you want. It just doesn't happen for all women.
I am not going to make a moralistic judgment on a woman for not seeking out information in every context. I will in some. I try not to judge anyone. I educated myself. More so than most women. That was right for me. However, I don't think judging others is really my right. If, however, there is some problem with your pregnancy, especially a serious one, or with your baby before it is born, and you do not educate yourself, I might take the leap in saying, that it is "wrong" but I hate the language.
I believe that miracles are commonplace. Everyday miracles happen. My child is already a miracle. I had two loses. This baby is a gift. The process of her birth, however it occurs and whatever medical interventions I may or may not choose to have, will be a miracle to me.
I never said that a woman could only get a deep experience, or would get the deepest experience by a waterbirth with a supportive husband. I was merely juxtaposing the aforementioned experience with a woman who was "too posh to push" and got a planned c/s with tummy tuck with a natural birth mother who had a supportive husband there along the way. BEFORE birthing, they planned for these births, it would seem that you can deduce from their plans what value they may have placed on the birthing process. I would not dare to say that someone's process of birth is a necessary indicator of how much value they place on the process. The waterbirthing mother could just have easily had to have an emergency c/s and had the same experience as the first mother while their value of the process would not have likely changed.
People value things in different ways. They just do, when my friends say they would like to be knocked out for the process, and indication that they would like to skip the process entirely it would lead me to believe that they see no value in actually experiencing the process. While when another friend plans not to have medical involvement in the process, so that they can experience the process fully, and is excited about the process then I would believe she probably places a larger value on the process.
We are humans we value things differently. Women value the process of birth differently. Who cares. This doesn't make one woman better than another, it does not mean one woman will be a better mother than the other. Or even that one woman is a better mother than another. But, I can't believe that there is this much argument about the assertion that some woman values the PROCESS of childbirth more than others.
As an example, some woman value having clean clothes on their children more than others. Some may say, it will teach the child to have good hygiene or WHATEVER, some women may value letting their children have free spirits and don't care how clean their children are. Is one moralistically right or wrong. I really don't think so. But, they are different value sets. They are different priorities. Whatever you want to call it.
Why is it so horrible to say some women don't value the actual process. I think some women would be proud to say that they don't see any value in the process. "knock me out." Who cares.
This whole competition thing between women and hyper sensitivity to everything misses the whole issue. The health of a mom, the health of the baby and the miracle of birth. We could all have a better argument or discussion on the issue if we could just admit things without the feeling of judgment or competition. It is all so silly.
Process
Process
Process
Hm...well, in the process of deciding what to say, I try to keep my language as neutral as possible, because language choices have such an ability to offend. But, clearly I offend anyway....
Toledo, you forgot to add:
value
value
value.
I have nothing to add, except that it would have been awesome to get a tummy tuck with my c-section.
This.
It would also be fair to say that people VALUE sexual intercourse differently. To some it is important and to others it is not. Some women just want to get it over with, some women would prefer not to do it at all, while other women may even see it as a spiritually moving event. Just because a person is spiritually moved by sex, places a high value on the act, and finds it interesting that other women do not, doesn't mean that she judges other women. Just because one woman knows she values sex more than another women doesn't mean that she is putting the other woman down. To each their own.
The truth is that some women do not value childbirth. The issue of education, and the issue of doing what is the healthiest for the baby are separate issues. Just because a woman is having a natural birth experience partially because she wants a spiritual experience doesn't mean that is the only reason. Just like the pleasure of sex may not be the only reason a person has sex, it could be to bond with your partner, create a baby, or make some money... Also, natural childbirth may not be the healthiest choice for a baby, so having a natural childbirth doesn't mean that you are educated, or doing what is healthiest for your child.