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Attachment Parenting
Why should I care about everyone else's kids?
This is a philosophical argument. I do care about children. I do not, however, understand the rationalization that I should vaccinate because I am helping other people's children. I don't do other things based on how it will affect "other's people's children" henceforth OPC.
Why is it in the vaccine debate that OPC are tantamount? I don't get this argument. Why should I place a value on the lives/health of OPC if I feel that my own (imaginary) children would benefit more from not vaccinating. The concept of herd immunity is predicated on the notion that OPC are important to me. Why should they be? Should their parents not take steps to protect them and I'll not worry about them?
Do OPC come up in other debates? Should I be buying OPC Christmas gifts?
Disclaimer: My vax stance is not revealed at all in this post. I just am asking about the idea that I have a responsibility legally? morally? humanisticly? to OPC.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Why should I care about everyone else's kids?
I support anyone's choice to not vaccinate, we've decided to vax on schedule but it was an educated choice and I was absolutely open to not vax'ing or doing a delayed schedule.
"OPC" never once really figured into my decision making process, except maybe as a side argument to it. But it was never a major reasoning behind my choice to vaccinate.
That being said, I can see in theory why in THIS instance and in THIS particular subject, OPC are important. Because our community (local and the larger 'community' of the whole nation) needs to be important to us. What happens to our neighbour can/may happen to us. Our better health depends on the better health of our neighbours.
I think that one needs to decide what is important in their own decision making processes when it comes to their kids - for some people, other people's children MAY be very important simply because we all live in this community together, and we do rely on each other and we are absolutely interconnected. No man is an island and all that I suppose.
But I don't fault anyone for choosing to not have OPC as a part of their choice to vax/not vax.
I can see both sides. Like I said, for myself - my own children's best interests came first, and my choice in the end had very little to actually do with the other children around me.
Ok, I'll play. I think that our society, as a whole, runs better and is actually based on the assumption that other people are important to us. If not, what is the point of setting up communities, police departments, schools, etc.? If everyone decided that the herd mentality was not a reason to vaccinate and decided not to vaccinate, everyone would suffer, because immunity to the diseases would be nullified.
As humans, our lives are so very interconnected, and it is important to me to raise my children to understand that their actions affect the people around them and to have empathy for those people. To say that OPC do not matter could become a slippery slope. Why, then, should MY child have to learn to share, to speak kindly to others, to not hit? I think that by ignoring the responsibility that we have to other people in society, we are denying the very thing upon which society is built.
No one is asking you to care about anyone elses children. I only ask that you don't insult and call uneducated, the folks who vaccinate their children and as such, essentially continue to make it possible for you to "choose the best" for your child.
I couldn't give two hoots about anyone else.
Oooo, I like philosophical arguments!
IMO, your responsibility is to your own children. HOWEVER!!
Let's say you have chosen (for whatever reason) not to vaccinate your own child. Your child then comes in contact with ANOTHER child whose parents have also chosen (for whatever reason) not to vaccinate their child. What if that child has been exposed to measles, and just isn't sick yet? You've then exposed your own (unvaccinated) child to a potentially fatal (and almost 100% preventable) disease. What if your (unvaccinated) child gets sick from that exposure? Would you not then be guilty of child endangerment (figuratively speaking, not literally/legally), because you chose (for whatever reason) not to vaccinate your child? How would you feel, knowing you have caused your own baby to be ill by your own willful negligence?
This post doesn't necessarily express my views on vaccinating, either... but it's something to think about.
She didn't call anyone uneducated, not that I could see.
Unless you're talking about me when I said I made an educated choice - but my choice was TO vaccinate, and by educated I meant I actually took both sides of the issue into account and tried to make a reasoned decision about which direction to go.
Not that people who decide otherwise are UNeducated, but you can't tell me that there aren't people who just do the vax's because it's waht we're expected to do, and not put much extra thought into it.
No it was from last night. I get tired of being called uneducated and "not doing the best" for my child in a PA way. It's very bizarre. A lot of comments such as "you can't tell me EVERYONE is educated."
Uh no. But, be thankful I vaccinate. And be thankful so many people are "ignorant" and blindly following doctors in the ways of vaccinations because without those people, and public campaigns, there'd be polio outbreaks again.
I brought this argument up a few weeks ago after seeing a Law & Order episode pertaining to this very topic.?
If your unvaccinated child gives my child, who is too young for the MMR vaccine, the life-threatening (at her age) disease of measles, then you and I will have a problem. A big one.
??
This.
You say:
"The concept of herd immunity is predicated on the notion that OPC are important to me."
I don't see this.
One of the reasons that it's safe for (some) children to be unvaccinated in the U.S. is that, since *most* people are vaccinated, the unvaccinated will seldom, if ever, be exposed to vaccine preventable diseases. So when you don't vaccinate, you take advantage of other people's decisions. Of other people's children. Consider returning the favor.
Parenting is not a solo exercise. One of the things that children do to us (to most of us, anyway) is force us into new connections with our communities. It is not just you and your kids, alone in a sea of inconsequential strangers. It's you, your kids, the family down the street, the little girl your kid has a crush on at library storytime. Other people's children matter because they become part of the network that makes it possible to get through the days when you feel like you just do not have the love and energy in you to do this parenting thing.
You don't have a legal responsibility to vaccinate. Your moral responsibility, IMO, is to make the best decision you can for your children. There really are some kids who should not be vaccinated - kids who have family history of certain vaccine reactions, or demonstrated sensitivity to previous vaxes - and if your kid is one of those, by all means do not vax. But don't write off other people's children.
Yep, I've seen that episode and that's why I vaccinate. I do not want to be responsible for allowing my own child to become sick, or having her exposed and spreading diseases to others.
Plus, what's so bad about caring about the health of other people's children? Of course Sophie is my #1 priority, but it'd break my heart to see ANY kid with polio or measles.
Do you pay your taxes?
Have you paid them since you first started making an income?
Then you care about OPC...
a huge % of taxes go to kids issues - from feeding poor kids to paying for public schools to federal student grants and loans.
If you REALLY had no interest in helping out kids, you'd be a tax resister / protester because you don't think that your $$ should go to pay for these things for OPC.
I am the 99%.
This argument is a logical fallacy. I have no choice where my tax money goes and I chose to pay taxes rather than suffer the consequences to ME. Has nothing to do with OPC.
Stay focused on why I "should" care about OPC not whether or not I do.
whoa. baggage.
Question is: why should I care about OPC?
That's been answered.
I call troll.
Ok, so I should care about OPC because at some point MY CHILDREN may be unable to be vax (too young, allergic, etc.) and so vaxing is enlightened self interest.
k, I kinda get that.
OPC are of no matter to me when deciding how and when to inject substances into my child. I'm responsible to her- not to my friend's kids or your kids. I will not risk her having a bad reaction and us not knowing which vaccine caused it because she got as many as 8 different vaccines in one sitting. I do this for my child and what I believe to be her best interest. I will not consider another child's well being above that of my own in this case.
She'll be delayed on her vaccines but mostly vaccinated (skipping rota, flu, and maybe pox).
No offense intended, but you vaccinated your kid based on a TV program? I guess I don't get this rationalization at all.
That's part of it, yes, but what about this: If your hypothetical unvaxed (by choice, not need) kid got a disease and gave it to a baby who was too young for the vax, you just wouldn't care because it's not your kid? I can't understand that mentality. Do you keep your kids home, or at least away from other kids, when they have a cold? That's the same logic, no?
Maybe the question is a dumb one. I read stars reply and did a head scratch too.
I care about other kids and what they could give to my kid. Public health is about caring about other people and what they could be full of disease wise.
You make your own decisions, yes. But your decisions have consequences for others, and not acknowledging that or caring is what is bizarre to me.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. The reason I have chosen to vaccinate is for the reasons I stated, not because of the episode. The episode did make me think about these issues though, and I guess in some ways did contribute to my stance on it.
You were very clear. Hippy likes jumping.
this
care or don't care. doesn't make a difference to me. however...
maybe bring this up again when you HAVE kids.
2 infertiles' journey to 2 pink lines (and a baby girl)
"our IF story"
so my one child isn't enough? It's a hypothetical argument. Don't worry, I'll talk slow.
2 infertiles' journey to 2 pink lines (and a baby girl)
"our IF story"
LOL
fair enough. I have only one, so children is the imaginary part.
but your arguement that my statements aren't valid because I don't have children is ridiculous.
Don't feel bad, apparently those of who don't have kids yet (I guess my opinions can change and are valid in a few weeks?) have been told many times on this board that what we believe doesn't count. Like we should have thoughts on what we think is right/wrong before we hold a baby in our arms.
So I am late to the game on this but I will bite.
We had a newborn at work with a pertussis infection that she got out in the community. She was too young to vaccinate and became VERY ill. She couldn't eat because her ribs hurt so much from coughing and had to be fed through a tube in her nose. Taking care of her solidified my stance that vaccinations = good.
You may not care about other people's kids but preventing cases like this makes me want to vaccinate mine.
Im not going to sugar coat this. You sound like a biitch and an idiot. Sure, dont care about other peoples children. Why dont you also speed through a playground and risk hitting a child? So long as its not yours, who cares?
If you dont want to be socially responsible, and only care about your own, then you shouldnt expect to mingle with others/society. Go live in a cave, because, as one pp suggested, if you were to endanger my child with your unbelieveably selfish notions, you and I will have a HUGE problem.
Thoughts are fine. Opinions are fine. Talk all you want about what you want to do with your infant. however, you got indignant and self righteous about a parenting philosophy when you've not had anything to parent. People just found it odd. And it is.
Do your research, be informed, have opinions but don't fight to the death over something so bizarre as a philosophy. That was what people were calling out.
I think it went right over your head that the OP intended this to be a philosophical argument.
Quite literally, her question was "Why do I HAVE to be socially responsible?" What pushes each respondent? THAT was the point of the post.
eh, like i said, I think it was taken wrong. I was defending this board and a philosophy that I feel strongly about (or more so I guess I could say I feel strongly about not doing things that people consider the opposite). I don't need something to parent to know that this style of parenting feels right to me. Considering that's what this board is for, I see nothing wrong with that. I didn't go on to another board parading my opinions and judgments about AP, I was defending them on this board.
Regardless, that wasn't the first time I've seen that (for me or anyone else) on here since this board started and it happened again just now, that's ALL I was pointed out to "Mike".
Saying that your own child is your first priority is normal. I don't know if I see how it follows that accepting the herd effect of vaccines is putting the well-being of OPC before your own. That assumes that you want everyone else to put YOUR child's well-being in front of their own (assuming that you believe vaccines are not in the best interest of any child). If everyone decided against vaccination, immunity to many childhood diseases would cease, and there again be outbreaks of those diseases.
I have no problem with alternative vaccination schedules (DD is actually on one.) I have no problem with not vaccinating due to the health issues of particular children (previous reactions, allergies, etc.) I do have a problem with the idea that people don't vaccinate based on the idea that their child has the right to reap the protection that other vaccinated children provide.
Because other people who vaccinate their children are keeping YOU and YOUR children healthier. Everyone benefits from widespread vaccination.
By relying on other people to vaccinate their kids to keep your family safe, but not doing your part in return, you are selfishly reaping the benefits of public health measures without contributing to the public welfare.
You may not care about "OPC" but those "OPC" are keeping "YC" safer.
Outside of whatever obligations exist to others in the community, and outside the arguments of protecting your children when they are too young for vaccines and returning the favor, I can't think of a reason you HAVE to care.
But I kind of think that is bordering on sociopathology. I think there is innate reciprocity that exists in various degrees. If you cease to care at all about the effects of your actions on anyone outside you or your immediate family, it's quite dangerous and would probably resemble some Hobbesian or Lockeian pre-civilisation society. It's one of the things we trade for to live in a peaceful, civilized society - a lessening of our own interests (possibly our own best interests) for a strengthening of common interests or benefits to society.
Gabriel Ross - August 24, 2009 * Vivienne Rose - May 1, 2012
My Blog
If so, then I'll rephrase:
Those who feel they dont have to "care" so to speak, can refer to my comments. That is my opinion on this "debate"
Because if your unvaccinated child gets measles and is at the same daycare with my baby who is too little to get the MMR and my baby gets measles, it won't be pretty.
By me vaxing my child, I'm risking any effect to my kid only. By not vaxing your child, you are risking my child, which isn't fair unless you plan to keep your child well away from mine and not in the same daycare, and you are risking your own child's life which is basically your problem and not the question you asked anyway.
So quite a few of you can't debate a philosophical argument without getting all personal like.
BTW, My child is vaxed on time. I work in a hospital and have lunch on occasian with his pedi. He's all about vacinations. Pretty much me too.
I love a good philosophical debate, and really that is so not where this post went.
ETA: LOL at my spelling.