More Ferber questions - sorry long.

honeydew01

I don't want this to turn into a debate please. I understand Ferber may not be for every family but we have decided that we are going to have to do it and I'd like to hear from those of you who have experience with this sleep training method.

Background: Currently, it's taking us an average of 4 hours to rock and shoosh DD to sleep, we gingerly place her in her crib only for her to wake up a few minutes later or she wakes up every 30-45 minutes and goes into a raging scream. Last night this went on from 6:30 pm to 3:30 am where she finally fell sleep for 3 hours. I know we have created a bad association where she wakes up after the first cycle, realizes she's not been rocked and can't put herself back to sleep.  DD is cranky all day from poor sleep. DH and I have been functioning on very little and broken sleep for months, and I understand it comes with the territory of parenthood but I like to think we'll be better parents if we were not so sleep deprived and in pain (all my body hurts from holding rocking her for hours)..Basically all we do during the waking hours is try to console her and stop her from crying so much. I feel like the time spent on helping her stop crying could be spent on the gym mat practicing rolling or reading a book or going out and seeing thing. We have tried the No Crying Sleep Solution and that hasn't worked for us. We are doing the 5 S's of the Happiest baby on the block book. DH and I are reading the Ferber book right now to prepare ourselves and do it right.

Anyways here are a few questions I had:

1. DD is a snacker. She has always been a snacker but now that she's older she's always distracted no matter where I feed her (ex. quiet dark room, living room...) it's pretty frustrating as she doesn't take one full meal to last 2-3 hours, it's sometimes an hourly feeding of a few minutes. So my question is when we put her down for the night, after 45 minutes she's up and feeds more. Do I let her CIO at that time or feed her and put her back in the crib? I know CIO won't work if they're hungry but I am not sure if there is any way for me to get her to eat a full meal before bedtime.

2.  Is the major part of crying the first part of the night or is it in the middle of the night?

3. We're setting a 3 hour limit on the feeding for the middle of the night. So if she wants up at 2.5 hours we will CIO, if she wakes up at 3 hours, we feed and put back in the crib. Does this sound good? 

4. What did you do to distract yourself while the CIO was going on? We have a small house so I can't just go to a different part of the house and not hear it.

5. She is what I would consider a "difficult temperament". I am reading that CIO might not work as well on all temperaments. In the back of my head, I am concerned that we go through the rough crying and it may not work? Of course, I understand that we'll have to be consistent for it to work.. I need to stop second guessing myself in order to be able to do this. I'm not sure what's my question here, I guess I need encouragement?

6. The book indicates to go in to do the checks and talk to them for a minute or two but not pick them up or touch them. I plan to not pick her up but should I really not put my hands on her when I go in for the checks?

 

Sorry for the long post and thanks for reading and responding with your experience. 

 

LimaD

Last night was night #3 of Ferber with my daughter who is about 7 mos.  I feel like Happiest Baby on the Block was written FOR her. lol that saved my sanity when she was a newborn, so I understand how exhausting the constant rocking/swaying/bouncing is to keep her happy.  Needless to say, DD also got that sleep association.  I used to have to go back and put her back to sleep 2-3 times before she'd be "down" for the night (until her MOTN wake up). Anyway, here are my answers based on my experiences:

1. Ok, I guess this one is not from experience.  But I would think that the time to have her CIO hungry would be before bed.  So, maybe try to get her to wait 2-3 hours before her LAST feeding before bed.  That way she'll be hungry enough to eat enough to help her through the night?  That might help her learn to eat a meal, not just snack, when it's time to nurse. But if she's screaming bloody murder to eat, I'd think the best thing to do for her sake is feed her.

2. For us the worst was the first night, putting her to bed.  Not the wake up in the MOTN--which was only due to her rolling on her tummy and forgetting how to roll back onto her back.   The first night was HARD.  Everyone says this but be prepared.  I told myself that if the second night started off as bad as the first I'd throw in the towel that's how bad it was.  Turns out, on the second night she was out after only 5 min!   First night took an hour, with checks obviously.

3. IDK, I'd say if she sounds hungry feed her (when my daughter is hungry I can hear the difference in her cry. more of a NNNEH sound).  But maybe someone else who has a similar situation can help you w/that one.  DD doesnt typically need to eat in the MOTN.  (Before Ferber I would usually end up feeding her anyway, b/c i was so exhausted trying to rock/sway/bounce her back to sleep)

4. I honestly didn't distract myself well.  I kept track of what time I left the room, and what time I would go back in.  I was on my computer going through some things, but I just didn't want to accidentally wait too long between checks. I have a video monitor, I kept the sound off but image on so I could keep an eye on her

5. Like I said before, Happiest Baby on the Block was written FOR my DD. lol As a newborn she was DEFINITELY "difficult". Now I like to say "spirited"   And when she's upset, she's intense. I was AMAZED that it only took one night for her to catch on.  The morning after her first night of Ferber, I was so afraid to lay her down for her nap b/c I didn't want her to endure that again.  She was out in <5 minutes. for 2 hours.  I'd say go for it

6. Since my DD is intense when she's upset, I knew I couldn't NOT pick her up.  But I also wanted to be consistent.  Everytime I went in, I picked her up.  I think it helped her SO much and was gentler on her. And like I said, it didn't take long for her to catch on so that didn't hinder the learning process at all. 

GL!! 

honeydew01

Thank you so much for your reply! it really helps.

opaque1997

Ok - so first - I'm not a ferber natzi - I'm more in the - lets follow it but adjust to our child's needs.. so.. that said IMHO:

1. Snacker - this is VERY common at this age - it got so bad for my daughter and her sanity I moved to bottles during the waking hours.  This is a very personal decision - is your daughter eating solids?  Can you try and offer the boob, and solids say every 30 minutes for 2 hours before bed?  I also find my daughter nurses very well during bed time routine - do you have one set up?  If not I'd start there.  OUrs is bath, diaper, nurse, jammies, rock (short) - bed.

2.  Is the major part of crying the first part of the night or is it in the middle of the night? Depends on the kid from what I can tell - we are still working out some sleep issues but for us - motn for sure.

3. We're setting a 3 hour limit on the feeding for the middle of the night. So if she wants up at 2.5 hours we will CIO, if she wakes up at 3 hours, we feed and put back in the crib. Does this sound good?  3 hours sounds perfect to start with.  With ferber the bigger issue is - don't let her nurse to sleep - so rouse her after nursing - maybe even strip her out of her jammies nurse - then re dress.

4. What did you do to distract yourself while the CIO was going on? We have a small house so I can't just go to a different part of the house and not hear it.

I take a shower.. with the fan on in the bathroom I cannot hear her - and normally a shower is the length I need between checks.  IT helps if you can tag team with dh - take a walk outside.. but like pp I too have sat and watched the minutes and the monitor.. I was so focused and assessing time and her needs that I didn't get all upset. (and honestly by the time IReally started this I was desperate and frusterated so I wasn't too bothered by her crying) 

5. Temperment:  Honestly?  This isn't what you want to hear but it might not work.  HOWEVER it may work SUPER fast if you stick to it.  In your shoes?  I'd give it two solid nights and see if I saw improvement.. as PITA as it is - I might keep a detailed sleep journal (Sometimes seeing improvements on paper is easeir)  I've heard and seen the strong willed child take to ferber faster then the easy going one more then not.  BUT the first night may take 2 hours.  Be ready for that - but also repeat to yourself - even if she cries say 3  hours with checks - thats less then 2 nights of crying while bouncing / swaying / picking up / putting down / etc.  That is how I got through the first few times (We were on a much lower scale but still same thing - yes this is 20 minutes but really last night she fussed / cried / screamed for forty while I was putting her down)

6. The book indicates to go in to do the checks and talk to them for a minute or two but not pick them up or touch them. I plan to not pick her up but should I really not put my hands on her when I go in for the checks?

This is where I vear away - I agree - DO NOT PICK UP - but I am a big - do NOT talk to them. Or one phrase one time - like "night night time to sleep"  reposition child - pat on the back - GET THE HECK OUT OF THERE.  I've never seen a child not RAMP back up after a parent comes in.. just be prepared for that.

 

Good luck - TEACHING your child to sleep / self soothe is an amazing skill to teach - but it can be really really hard - it is kind of sink or swim

  

orangegoggles

I feel for you, we've been there! We started ferber at 5 1/2 months. My son could not transition into sleep cycles because we had been rocking him to sleep. He took 1/2 hour naps and slept at night in hour to hour and a half chunks. All. night.long. It was awful and exhausting. I can't answer all your questions but I'll answer the ones I feel comfortable with. Keep in mind that I did not do the ferber method perfectly and sometimes went with my gut.

1. I EBF but during his most distracting days I would pull out a bottle of expressed milk. With the bottle he could still look around the room and it kept him content. I also used the fast speed nipple. Some people might not agree with this but we found it worked for the nighttime feedings. He has since grown out of the distracted eater stage so I rarely give a bottle anymore.

2. For us, it was putting him to sleep. After that, the middle of the night wake up (s) were just for feeding.  After eating he went right back down. He was usually pretty drowsy though so it made it much easier. 

4. Put on headphones and don't watch the monitor until time is up.

6. This is where I did my own thing. I went into the room and said once,night night". I would  pat his back about  10 times then left the room after 30-60 seconds. 

Good luck! We saw a big improvement after a few days. He now sleeps 7-6:30 with one wake up to eat around 1 or 2. It doesn't take him long to settle down for bed now though he still sometimes cries for a little.  

hkgrigonis09

As far as the snacking goes, try to get her into a routine. Try feeding and naps about the same time every day. That's also supposed to help them sleep better at night.

From my experience, crying it out works great if they are crying because they are tired. If its from being hungry or gas it doesn't work.

I wouldn't pick her up, that only makes my son more mad. Try rocking her until she's sleepy but not asleep so she doesn't cry as long. Bedtime routines are also great.

honeydew01

Thank you everyone. These are all very helpful!

DD doesn't take a bottle, she refused it since she was 8 weeks old and we were never able to get her back on it. I wish I could give her express milk that way...

And to the poster that said don't label her a "difficult temperament" until she is rested, you're so very right. I always wonder what she'll be like if she has had a good meal and a good night of sleep. I am hoping that once she is sleep trained that she'll be in a better mood. I really really really hope so.

 

minni_ash

We are dealing with sleep issues too.  For awhile, she was sleeping great at night and her naps were horrible, not we've switched and her naps are great and night time is horrible... and to think that I though after my daughter slept through the night once, it would be like that for life... little did I know how vacations, hectic day trips, vaccines, colds, and everything else would effect her sleep schedule.  Anyway....

I am still waiting for my Ferber book to arrive in the mail.  I have been trying to do what I have read online, but I feel like I really need the book before I can execute it perfectly.  And it seems that from what I've read, it works best if you follow the directions exactly.

When you talk about getting your daughter on a better eating schedule I can tell you what I did.  I was tired of the snacking throughout the day too, so I started in the morning.  I usually did one of those, "hey it's 5am and the baby is awake, and I want to be sleeping, so let's doze in my bed while she nurses/snacks herself to sleep again for another hour."  But I realized if I actually got out of bed and made sure she got a first full feeding right away, she would get into a schedule of eating fuller meals and I could hold her off on 3 or 4 hours between feedings.  It helped for us.

Another thing I am finding with the whole sleep issue thing is that if I concentrate on one thing at a time, the other things start falling into place better.  Like my daughter wasn't staying asleep right away at night.  It was taking us multiple tries to get her to go to sleep, then she was snacking all night, and then she was up every hour... etc... It was so frustrating. But I am taking on one issue at a time and I don't know if they are all connected, but the other issues seem to be getting better as well.  I also don't feel as overwhelmed by all of her sleep problems. 

I don't know if this helps, but I feel your pain. It's so hard when nobody is sleeping at night.  It really makes you start second guessing yourself.  I hope things get better for you fast!

spritz

I understand your frustration with the snacking thing, but I think that by setting an arbitrary 3 hour limit, you are confusing your baby and it will lead to more crying.  The baby cannot tell time, so s/he will keep waking up wondering when it is time to eat.  We tried to do Ferber with one motn feeding and it went horribly.  It wasn't until we eliminated motn feedings that we had success.  We worked with a pediatric sleep nurse, and part of our plan was that I (mom) had to leave the house 2-3 hours before bedtime so that ds would know he couldn't nurse.  He was only left with dad and a bottle.  Maybe this would help you?