What Would You Say?

Saraevh

Last night I was reading a blog post by a Dad who is expecting IVF twins.  The article was disturbing to me as the post was all about how him and his wife were upset they were having twins and not a singleton (even though they put back two embryos ... ahhhhh) but what also bothered me were the ridiculous comments written by some people stating that if you can't get pregnant on you own then you weren't meant to have children.  

These types of statements make me crazy mad.  Like, are you trying to say that my daughter shouldn't be here because she wasn't conceived through having sex?  Oh hell to the no.  

Has anyone ever made comments like this to you?  What have you said back?  Or if no one has, what would you say?  I am just so shocked by the absolute ignorance and stupidity of some people.     

Suebee8

That is a big reason I have broken from the Catholic church. Because I cannot follow a religion that believes my sweet little girl should not exist.

My belief is that if the science was created why shouldn't we use it. Should people with other diseases and illnesses not utilize the treatments? or just get over it themselves?

itsmevkb

I really haven't had many people comment on our fertility issues but did have my own mother tell me that my miscarriages "happened for a reason" and read a post on another board about how if you miscarry then God didn't want you to have that baby.  Ugh.  My response to my mother was that I don't care what the reason is, I wanted my baby and to the other idiot who posted the thing about God, I replied that God didn't kill my baby because He didn't want me to have him and that if she thought He did then fine but I choose to not believe in a God that kills innocent children.  Bad stuff happens, that's life and it's not God making the bad stuff happen.

I think a lot of objections to fertility treatments tend to stem from the extremes, like the news focusing on women having 8 babies as a result, or talking about couples trying for a specific gender and discarding embryos of the "wrong" sex in the process.  People tend not to see it as couples struggling to just have one or two children.

I guess my response to people who say the things like you weren't meant to have children would just be to say that by that logical you are pretty much negating all medical help.  Your vision is going?  Oh, I guess you weren't meant to see.  Heart attack?  Oh, I guess you weren't meant to live past 53.    When you start putting it in those terms people begin to see the flawed logic.

ccam

cinciem:

Saraevh: People who believe that remind me of those who don't seek medical treatment for their children's illnesses and let them die (this has been in the news lately). If you would call an ambulance for someone having a heart attack, why wouldn't you call a fertility clinic for someone having trouble conceiving or carrying a baby to term? These things are the same to me.

Suebee: I had a long conversation with my aunt, who happens to be a Catholic nun about these types of comments and the stance of the Catholic Church on infertility treatments. She basically told me that while some well intentioned scholarly people have written on this, there are no actual "rules" about it in the Church. She believes God loves all children and Jesus always sought to surround himself with them. God would not choose to deny parents of the joy of having children if science could help make them possible. 

ETA: on the twin comment the IVF dad made... I bet he is frightened about the future. Twins create a high risk pregnancy and two babies are a ton of work.  They are a gift, for sure, but I imagine it is super scary proposition.

 

My aunt is also a nun and has the same beliefs.  A lot of what is put out by the church is someone's interpretation.  I deep down believe that if God did not want us to have children that he would not have made IUIs, IVFs, etc. possible. 

In reference to the original post, no one has ever made that sort of comment to me or in front of me, thankfully.  If someone did, I would probably point to my beautiful son and ask them, "so you don't think he was meant to be?".  And those extremely fertile drug addicted or abusive parents were meant to have children??  I would also ask them if they've ever wanted something so bad that they'd do anything to get it.  People just don't understand how much a comment like that hurts until they go through it or have someone they love go through it. 

IBackBevo

Fortunately, I have not had anyone say this to my face, but I have heard of similar situations.  I did however recently have my Dad tell me that it might not be God's will for me to have a second child...but it wasn't said in a mean-spirited way or a way suggesting that I should not seek treatment.  It was more said in a way of it takes MORE than medical intervention and praying for another baby--it has to be consistent with God's will for your life, too.  It still hurt my feelings, though.

I also know there was a smallish town (for some reason I am thinking it was Illinois) where the town was having an IF clinic come into town and there was a great uproar with people claiming it was unnatural and playing God and making similar statements. I also know that the previous Pope was very outspoken against IF treatments--I think even going so far to state that it was a sin to pursue IF treatments. My child is not the product of sin. He is a blessing from God and I believe a miracle.

IMO, IF treatments are no different than getting treatment for high blood pressure or diabetes or Cancer. I do not understand the logic of people who differentiate the two. People use the excuse that it must not be God's will for us to have children, but yet you would never (or rarely) hear a person say it was God's will for a person to die of Cancer or that she should not treat their diabetes.

TJ1979

I agree with everything that has been said so far. As a catholic, it's been hard for me. I can't believe that God would not love my daughter as much as any other child. I won't believe that. So I am glad to hear the explanations above.
I'm sure the guy is just panicked about having twins. At least I hope so.
All those commenters are idiots and hats. Luckily I haven't had a single person other than the pope say anything negative to me about doing treatments. It would change my views on that person forever.

Mrs.AmyDylan

I have not received any negative comments directed at me, but aren't really out beyond a tight circle of folks. My dad, who is very Christian and somehow relates everying back to faith, was very supportive of our IVF journey. In fact, he found it fascinating. He even asked if it was possible for me to carry my own sibling had he and my mom frozen embies back in the day. My parents struggled with IF and miscarriages, so I never would have expected any negative stuff from them. 

I would have said something to the same tune as the pps, if anyone gave me crap.

Humans have always manipulated nature for improved results (weeding gardens, fertilizer, medicine, domestication of animals, you get the picture). Why shouldn't we do the same thing to allow people to have wanted and desired babies?

Furthermore, since IF is a malfunction of normal body function it should be covered my insurance (but that is a whole different can of worms). 

Saraevh

This is the article in case anyone is interested:  

 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/babblecom/my-wife-is-expecting-twins_b_3141819.html

bearfootz

Suebee8:

That is a big reason I have broken from the Catholic church. Because I cannot follow a religion that believes my sweet little girl should not exist.

My belief is that if the science was created why shouldn't we use it. Should people with other diseases and illnesses not utilize the treatments? or just get over it themselves?

I had a hard time with that as well as I was actually going through RCIA while pregnant. I talked to the priest after class one day and told him I think I hit a roadblock because I felt like everything we did with our fertility treatments was for the purpose of making a life so I don't see how IUI/IVF could be thrown in under the sin category.  He listened to me and explained that the church issues guidelines for how they look at things but that it is up to us as individuals to pray about it and make our own decisions - and to remember that the church isn't always right.  I don't agree with the church's argument but if anything it makes people pause and seriously think about the treatments. I know I had concerns about ivf as far as unused embryo that I would have had to really think about (no judgements against others though). 

As for the Dad that was mad about having twins - I just don't get that at all.  When I found out I was having twins the first thing in my mind was whether or not they'd be ok.  Sure we had our freakouts about how to manage, but once you're becoming a parent the focus needs to be on your kids.

If I were you - I probably wouldn't say anything and just quietly walk away from that blog.

IBackBevo

Saraevh:

This is the article in case anyone is interested:  

 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/babblecom/my-wife-is-expecting-twins_b_3141819.html

I just read this. I am confused as to why they even tried for a second at all...this guy sounds like he didn't even like being a parent to one!  My son had colic and GERD and there were alot of sleepless nights, but I don't talk about him like he ruined my life.  This guy sounds like he didn't even like having 1 child.  

I also do not 100 percent get why he is so shocked that she got pregnant with twins. I could sort of see the *shock* if they had put back in 1 and gotten identicals...but they put 2 back in. He had to have known that twins was a possibility. 

Saraevh

Bearfootz:

Suebee8:

That is a big reason I have broken from the Catholic church. Because I cannot follow a religion that believes my sweet little girl should not exist.

My belief is that if the science was created why shouldn't we use it. Should people with other diseases and illnesses not utilize the treatments? or just get over it themselves?

I had a hard time with that as well as I was actually going through RCIA while pregnant. I talked to the priest after class one day and told him I think I hit a roadblock because I felt like everything we did with our fertility treatments was for the purpose of making a life so I don't see how IUI/IVF could be thrown in under the sin category.  He listened to me and explained that the church issues guidelines for how they look at things but that it is up to us as individuals to pray about it and make our own decisions - and to remember that the church isn't always right.  I don't agree with the church's argument but if anything it makes people pause and seriously think about the treatments. I know I had concerns about ivf as far as unused embryo that I would have had to really think about (no judgements against others though). 

As for the Dad that was mad about having twins - I just don't get that at all.  When I found out I was having twins the first thing in my mind was whether or not they'd be ok.  Sure we had our freakouts about how to manage, but once you're becoming a parent the focus needs to be on your kids.

If I were you - I probably wouldn't say anything and just quietly walk away from that blog.

 

 Oh, ha.  I'm not going to comment on the blog post.  After skimming a few of the comments underneath it last night a couple of them irritated me and I was just curious if anyone has ever had anyone say something like they shouldn't have had kids if they had to do IF treatments in real life.  I have never had anyone ever say anything to me about it but if they did I would be livid and probably never speak to them again!  

Suebee8

I'm sorry, I really never meant for this to turn into a religious discussion or a Cathlic bashing. It was extremely difficult for me when I heard the past Pope's views that couples who persue ART are arrogant and think they know better than God. If the Pope is supposed to be God's voice on Earth I just can't wrap my brain around those beliefs. Believe me it was not the only issue that led me to question my faith in the Catholic church but it was definitely the straw that broke this former-Catholic's back.

 

TJ1979

Omg. I just read the article. Yeah, that dad SHOULD want to remain anonymous. That makes me sick to my stomach. If you live in a one bedroom apt and already have one kid, why would you try for another, put 2 back, then have the nerve to complain that you got exactly what you asked for? I take back my defense of him, I'm so a angry now!

bearfootz

Suebee8:

I'm sorry, I really never meant for this to turn into a religious discussion or a Cathlic bashing. It was extremely difficult for me when I heard the past Pope's views that couples who persue ART are arrogant and think they know better than God. If the Pope is supposed to be God's voice on Earth I just can't wrap my brain around those beliefs. Believe me it was not the only issue that led me to question my faith in the Catholic church but it was definitely the straw that broke this former-Catholic's back.

 

I don't think it turned into a bashing - I think it's something that every Catholic facing fertility issues has had to think about.  I know DH's Catholic grandmother quizzed me on if twins run in the family or not and we were vague with her because we didn't want to hear it if she was against our treatment.

Anyhow, the way I look at it - is if you think that God creates life - then he's still got a hand in creating that life whether it's done in utero or in a test tube.  If it's truly not his will, then it will be obvious.  Sometimes science just has to help it along. 

IBackBevo

Bearfootz:

Suebee8:

I'm sorry, I really never meant for this to turn into a religious discussion or a Cathlic bashing. It was extremely difficult for me when I heard the past Pope's views that couples who persue ART are arrogant and think they know better than God. If the Pope is supposed to be God's voice on Earth I just can't wrap my brain around those beliefs. Believe me it was not the only issue that led me to question my faith in the Catholic church but it was definitely the straw that broke this former-Catholic's back.

I don't think it turned into a bashing - I think it's something that every Catholic facing fertility issues has had to think about.  I know DH's Catholic grandmother quizzed me on if twins run in the family or not and we were vague with her because we didn't want to hear it if she was against our treatment.

Anyhow, the way I look at it - is if you think that God creates life - then he's still got a hand in creating that life whether it's done in utero or in a test tube.  If it's truly not his will, then it will be obvious.  Sometimes science just has to help it along. 

I agree 100%! I was given less than 10 percent odds even with ART.  I believe God gave me my precious child more so than any ART procedure.  I do not consider it any less of a miracle that I used medications and had an IUI.  I mean, is it any less of a miracle that someone is healed of stage 4 Cancer because they had chemo?

Dragonfly1226

I honestly can't even dignify stupid comments like that with a response. Anyone who can look my beautiful little boy in the face and call him anything less than a miracle is crazy. Some people just suck. As for the father complaining about twins, he should have never agreed to transfer two embies.

Jezebell26

Hasnt happened to me yet but im sure it will. I have no idea what I might say. I am sure I will probably freeze, or cry. Who knows lol. But I agree, just because she was conceived without sex doesnt mean she is any different then a baby who was!

dmhrn13

They are probably the same assholes that have like 15 abortions, so screw them.

I tried to go to confession in a Catholic Church when I was 7 weeks with DD & the priest told me he would not absolve my sins because I "had people frozen".

Jenny952

dmhrn13:

They are probably the same assholes that have like 15 abortions, so screw them.

I tried to go to confession in a Catholic Church when I was 7 weeks with DD & the priest told me he would not absolve my sins because I "had people frozen".

Oh my goodness, this just made me spit out my milk!  I can't help but laugh at this completely ridiculous comment.  I'm Catholic too and have never actually talked about our IUI to anyone in the church.  Why do they need to know how I got my beautiful baby girl?  Are they going to un-baptize her and tell us we're not welcome there anymore?  I dare someone to!  

As for the dad who wrote the blog, what an idiot.  When you choose to put back 2 embryos, you have to accept the risk that both of them will take.  Heck you have to accept the risk that they both take AND one of them splits.  

ccam

dmhrn13:

They are probably the same assholes that have like 15 abortions, so screw them.

I tried to go to confession in a Catholic Church when I was 7 weeks with DD & the priest told me he would not absolve my sins because I "had people frozen".

What?!?!

queenbone

dmhrn13:

They are probably the same assholes that have like 15 abortions, so screw them.

I tried to go to confession in a Catholic Church when I was 7 weeks with DD & the priest told me he would not absolve my sins because I "had people frozen".

Oh no! I'm so sorry you had that reaction. I have been meaning to go to confession myself for the IUI conception of this baby, but have had scheduling issues. When I was ttc#2 I did confess to some sins that related to my anger with my IF. So then when I did finally get pregnant through injectibles my priest was like, "See?!?" And I was like, "Yeah, but this is the result of the miracle of God AND the magic of science." And then one time he introduced me to another parishioner and started talking about how I didn't think I could get pregnant, and yet here I was pregnant, and I thought,"Do you not remember that I told you about that during confession?"

Anyway, I know that my aunt (uncle's wife) would judge me for doing an IUI. But IMO she is a very bad Catholic even though she thinks that she is a terrific one. She is very holier than thou. Her oldest daughter has been struggling for several years with 2IF and my aunt makes snarky comments about how my cousin needs to hurry up and give her another grand child. This is the same woman who told us specifically that my gay uncle (on the other side of my family) and his partner, who were living with us while right after they first moved back into town, were not invited to her house with us for Easter. Hello, you have totally missed the point in Jesus's teachings on the most important holiday of our religion?! We obviously chose my gay uncle and his partner over her that year. But based on how she treats people, if she ever does criticize me for having an IUI I would tell her that I will see her in hell then, because we are both bad Catholics. (heehee I would love to see her face!)

byrne15

Suebee8:

That is a big reason I have broken from the Catholic church. Because I cannot follow a religion that believes my sweet little girl should not exist.

My belief is that if the science was created why shouldn't we use it. Should people with other diseases and illnesses not utilize the treatments? or just get over it themselves?

completely agree.  why would God allow the creation of IUI, IVF, etc if it wasn't meant to be?