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Food & Nutrition
MelissaMiso
member
vegan babies?
MelissaMiso
member
Hubby and I have been lacto-ovo veg for two years and I was pescaterian for eight years prior. The munchkin (Phia, 11 months) and my tanking milk supply have decided to ween without any input from me while hubby and I are moving towards more of a vegan diet.
I need some ideas for cow milk alternatives as well as balanced vegan diets for the baby. Thus far she has been open to tasting, and liking, a whole variety of veg foods, including humus, curried vegetables, felafel, and various fruits/veggies. I'm mostly worried about the best non-dairy milk choices but I also want to make sure she is getting a balanced diet. I would have no problem if she got some lacto-ovo foods if it's healthier but would prefer minimal dairy products.
TIA for ideas and suggestions.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: vegan babies?
Would your insurance cover seeing a nutritionist/dietician?
Also I would strongly recommend reading the book The Vegetarian Myth. Yes, it does argue against aspects of the vegan diet, but it does an excellent job discussing how the diet can affect health over the long term. If you know all the problems ahead of time, you can guard against them. I was vegan for awhile and all the literature was so positive for it, it was hard to get a balanced view.
Are you opposed to milk from a health perspective or because of animal rights? I don't know what area you live in, but here we can buy milk directly from the farmer. You know him, the cows, their living conditions, their food etc. If you really want a non-dairy choice I would choose coconut milk because of the fat. If you are doing a vegan diet, it is harder to get saturated fat and it is essential for brain development.
Ditto PP questions regarding milk. Fat is essential for proper brain development, and it's hard to get enough without animal products. Would you consider goats milk? It is nutritionally more similar to human milk than cow's milk is, so that would be a good alternative.
Eating a well-balanced diet as a vegan can be difficult, so I would consult a dietician who specializes in child's nutrition to ensure you're providing all the nutrients LO needs.
You can easily eat a well balanced diet as a vegan. People were not made to digest cows milk. Avocados provide a great deal of healthy fats and both soy and almond milk are good milk alternatives for children incapable of digesting dairy or vegan children.
We evolved the ability to digest cow's milk about 7,500 years ago.
We have not evolved into herbivores. Humans are omnivores. Every single species in the homo- genus have been omnivores.
There are no viable plant sources of Vitamin B-12; a diet that REQUIRES supplementation is not a "healthy diet".
Cultures that are predominately vegetarian highly prize the animal products they do eat (milk, eggs) because they know the importance of the nutrition they provide.
Unfermented soy, soy milk being one example, is horrible for you. Almond milk can be a decent replacement for milk, but soy is something I avoid just as much as HFCS! And in Asian cultures they do not eat blocks of tofu like veg*ns in the USA do; they use it more like a condiment; the average American eats more soy each year than the average person living in an Asian country does.
"The Vegetarian Myth" was previously mentioned. I would also suggest reading "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston A Price DDS (among other things, he found that no traditional culture was found to be living solely on plant matter; they would have died out if they tried). And "The Whole Soy Story" by Kaayla Daniel PhD CCN.
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I suggest the OP sticks to being vegetarian, not vegan. Especially when they are babies/kids involved! During early childhood development is NOT the time to be experimenting with an extreme diet like veganism.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200307/vegan-diet-bad-baby
I'm not looking to start a link war but it's laughable that you say we evolved to digest cows milk. I am not a calf and do not intend to become a full grown cow, it is not reasonable to think that our diets depend on the milk of another animal. If we needed milk into adulthood it would only make sense for human mothers to produce it and market it. We possibly have grown more tolerant of cows milk but we still do not digest it properly. Anyone would find many beneficial effects if they quit dairy. Are you a diary farmer?
All that being said I am not a vegan (I am a vegetarian) but I highly respect the life style and avoid dairy, viewing it as junk food really. I do not avoid eggs at all though.
The vegans reliance in fortification or supplementation for B12 is more for the sake of compassion and kindness to other living creatures. B12 is a form of bacteria that we eat too cleanly to get in a natural form if abstaining from any form of animal products but the fact is that most factory animals are not kept in a natural environment and are not exposed to the bacteria responsible for B12 and that animal is fortified with it unaturally anyway. A good source of natural B12 is not primarily a vegan problem. Why do you think so many cereals, multi-vitamins, breads etc add it in?
You are running with the milk thing and missing the real issue. If you don't want to drink milk, don't drink it. But cutting out all animal products (zero meat, fish, dairy, eggs, etc.) and only eating plants means your diet needs to be artificially supplemented. And supplementation is not as good as getting nutrients from real food; there are tons of examples of vegans who are B-12 deficient even though get regularly scheduled B-12 shots as well as eating fortified breads/cereals.
Science is laughable? It is FACT that we have evolved to digest cow's milk, which we started drinking about 7,500 years ago. This is why lactose intolerance strongly follows racial lines, it is those that evolved to digest dairy vs those that didn't. It's not that I think milk is good or bad, it's that large groups of humans can now adequately digest it where 10,000 years ago we couldn't.
The fact that food is artificially fortified doesn't mean that veganism is a good diet, it just means lots of people eat poorly.
You should have the ability to get all your nutrients from your diet in the form of real food (food that hasn't been fortified or had supplements added); when it is impossible to do so, that should be a huge red-flag!
You can get all of the nutrients you need in a vegan diet. Everything can be found in vegs/fruits/legumes...etc, with the exception of B12. Eating a tablespoon of B12 fortified nutritional yeast easily takes care of the lack of B12. Luckily nutritional yeast tastes a lot like cheese. The AAP says specifically that children can receive everything they need on a vegan diet as long as the parents are ensuring that the child is getting the nutrients.
https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/nutrition/pages/Vegetartian-Diet-for-Children.aspx
Some adults can't break down the lactose which is in all milks including human. It has nothing to do with being designed for a baby cow. And pp is correct that lactose persistence is growing.
One last thought for the OP- personal opinions aside, talk to your pedi and do your research. A vegan diet for a small child is possible and many, many people have done it and their kiddos have flourished. It can be tricky, but there are many foods out there that you can feed you LO to ensure that they receive proper nutrition.
Some links for you:
https://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vegdiets/vegetarian-diets-for-children-right-from-the-start
https://articles.courant.com/2013-02-11/features/hc-mommy-minute-20130211_1_vegan-milk-and-meat-soy
We are a vegan family, however DS has just weaned, so he had breast milk longer than your LO. I would think you might want to look at a formula until your LO is 12 months at least.
For milk alternatives, We give soy, hemp. Almond. And coconut milk, all of which are good for calcium and vitamin D. Soy has the closest fat and protein content as dairy milk, and I have done copious research on soy and I'm comfortable with the small amounts my DS gets. Hemp milk is high in omega 3 fats as well. I would definitely recommend you do some reading starting with these titles:
Disease Proof your Child by Joel Furhman
Vegan For Life
My basic meal plans for DS are that he get a fruit, veg, legume, grain, and fat at each meal. An example would be quinoa wih black beans and avocado with a side of fruit. Whole grain bread with peanut or almond butter, green peas, and a banana, homemade whole grain pancakes fortified with hemp powder, soy yogurt, and a fruit/veg smoothie.
I take a prenatal vitamin and vegan DHA daily, and 5,000 mcgs of chewable vitamin B12 once a week. I give DS DHA everyday and a quarter pill of my B12 once a week. Unfortunately due to the state of our food supply, my research indicates its difficult to get all the vitamins necessary no matter what diet, and taking a B12 supplement is something I'm totally comfortable with. I have many omnivorous friends who are B12 deficient as it is a difficult to absorb nutrient, particularly as we get older.
It is not difficult to get all the necessary nutrients on a vegan diet, and there is a lot of science backing its benefits on long-term health. Check out nutritionfacts.org which is a great site where a physician reviews research studies on nutrition and breaks them down. Lots of good, peer-reviewed scientific data there. It does take careful planning and a good understanding of nutrition to properly feed a growing child, but that is true no matter your diet preferences. I am sure that there are many who follow a standard American diet that are at a greater risk for nutritional ddeficiencies than most vegans.
I am happy to share more of my personal experiences. Feel free to PM me.
Thanks everyone (even the slightly heated debaters).
Hannafemme, I can't figure out how to pm. Not sure if I have a setting on my acct wrong or the site is being wonky. Please pm me or send me an message at misslissa13 (at) hotmail (dot) com (put your bump name in the subject so I know it's you. Thanks.
No. Vegans reliance on fortification and supplementation is due to the lack of that vital nutrient in their diet. They chose not to eat animal products for any number of reasons, but even if they hate all living things, if a human doesn't eat animal products they will need to supplement.
Out of curiosity, if vegans are so sanctimonious about being kind to living things, how do you reconcile the fact that plants are also living things?
Whether others have piss-poor diets that lack in vitamins/minerals isn't relevant. Not all meat-eaters consume factory-farmed meat either.
From your link, it clearly states that vegan diets are difficult to achieve balance (emphasis mine):
"Children can be well nourished on all three types of vegetarian diet, but nu?tritional balance is very difficult to achieve if dairy products and eggs are com?pletely eliminated. Vegetarians sometimes consume insufficient amounts of calcium and vitamin D if they remove milk products from their diet.
Also, because of the lack of meat products, vegetarians sometimes have an inadequate iron intake. They may also consume insufficient amounts of vita?min B-12, zinc, and other minerals. If their caloric intake is also extremely low, this could cause a delay in normal growth and weight gain.
Vegetarians may also lack adequate protein sources. As a result, you need to ensure that your child receives a good balance of essential amino acids."
and
"To ensure adequate levels of vitamin B-12, you might serve your child commercially prepared foods fortified with this vitamin. While calcium is present in some vegetables, your child may still need a calcium supplement if he does not consume milk and other dairy prod?ucts. Alternative sources of vitamin D might also be advisable if there is no milk in the diet."
I'm not trying to say it's impossible to get adequate nutrition as a vegan, and I am not interested in whether it's right/wrong for adults. However, children have different nutritional needs because their bodies are still growing and developing. But it can in fact be difficult to get all the required nutrients as a vegan, and it's important to be conscious of that to ensure whomever is eating this way is appropriately planning their meals. It's not to dissuade someone from eating vegan, but to ensure they are properly educated about their choice. And I'm not even thinking about the OP, but generally speaking, say someone who has come across this thread and thinks it's nbd to go vegan.
And I do think a 1yr old needs milk. We were biologically designed to be drinking milk until 3+yrs old. So I have serious concerns about a person choosing to withhold dairy products from a 1yr old without having a long discussion with a pediatrician, and preferably a dietician who specializes in children's nutrition about the appropriate choices to ensure adequate nutrition.
This article doesn't discuss fat intake, but I would also be very concerned about getting adequate fat from a vegan diet since there is very little in most fruits/vegetables/grains.
"Out of curiosity, if vegans are so sanctimonious about being kind to living things, how do you reconcile the fact that plants are also living thing?"
I am just going to address this. Plants do not have nervous systems and are unable to ambulate, therefore science has deduced, though we cannot know for sure, that they are unable to experience pain. Additionally, they do not have brains, so we can also assume that they cannot experience emotion such as fear and love that we know animals are capable of. Additionally, even if we did believe it was morally wrong to kill a plant, we are killing way less plants by eating vegan than we would be if we ate meat, because it take significantly more plant product to feed and grow the animals for slaughter. So either way you look at it, eating lower on the food chain is the more compassionate choice as less living creatures are killed.
Also, I would be happy to go and watch my plant food be "harvested" then sit down and it it. I wonder if most carnivores would feel the same after watching the slaughter of a pig or cow, the sitting down to eat the meat of that animal. I think just seeing the difference in these two food "harvesting" methods makes it clear that plants and animals have vastly different experiences in death.
I would also like to say that I do not think I am sanctimonious at all, I'm just doing everything I can to make choices that benefit my family's health, the environment, and the animals. I understand and do not judge others for making other choices. I personally ate meat for much of my life before I understood conditions on farms (factory or otherwise) and what life is like for farmed animals, and I understand the appeal and the strength of the cultural messages around eating animals.
Because I am vegan for the animals, I feel I have a huge responsibility to educate myself about nutrition so that I and my family thrive on our vegan diet to demonstrate that it is not only possible, but healthy with just a little care and attention. I hope that doesn't sound sanctimonious!
OP, I will send you an email
Speaking as someone who grew up in a farm and in a rural farming/ranching community, I've seen it all first-hand.
You have no idea how many animals die and/or are displaced to grow and harvest crops.
And your claim that if people saw animals die they wouldn't eat them is false. How many farmers, ranchers, or hunters do you know that are veg*n? And don't think that they hate or disrespect animals; they have more respect for animals than most veg*ns I know. They have great respect both for the animals and for nature; death is a part of that.
I can understand your aversion to factory farms. But you commented "factory farm or otherwise"... I strongly urge you to go spend some time on a local mom & pop farm that raises pastured animals.
It REALLY rubs me the wrong way when people badmouth farmers. Your local family farm style farmers are some of the most compassionate, respectful people you'll ever meet, both towards people and animals.
To the OP, if you do choose the vegan route, I urge you to both talk to a dietician and to have your child's B-12 levels tested on a regular basis. B-12 deficiency is not something to mess around with.
https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-QuickFacts/
Some excerpts from the above link:
In general, I don't care how people eat and such. But I found the other poster's comment about supplementing B12 because they care about living things very eye-roll inducing.
However, I take exception to the assertion that people who eat meat don't care about animals, and that we wouldn't do so if we saw "how the sausage was made." I do not support factory farms of meat, eggs, or plants. And I'd argue that the complete take-over of our farmland by corn/soy/wheat factory-style is a huge problem that isn't fixed by being vegetarian/vegan.
FWIW, I purchase all of my meat through CSA with a local farm. The animals are treated with respect, and slaughtered humanely. I have extended family who were/are cattle farmers. My father was raised on the family farm and has slaughtered cattle, as well as raised crops. I don't have any qualms about eating meat from these animals. I've toured the farm and seen how they are raised/etc. I have also hunted, and eaten the animals we've shot. Hunters and farmers tend to be very good stewards of the environment. Corporate meat manufacturers are not farmers and the two aren't comparable.
While I agree many people are disconnected from their food sources, that is a problem with plants as well. Many people don't have the faintest idea about growing anything or what different plants look like outside of the fruit in the store.
I can certainly appreciate your very valid concern about how a majority of the meat that's consumed is raised. It is appalling. I wish there were a way to open people's eyes to how that $1 McChicken can be so inexpensive. And I'm truly glad that being vegan works for you, and that you take care in ensuring proper nutrition. I wish more people, regardless of diet, would do that. Like I said before, I don't think it's impossible just harder. And when you eliminate huge food groups you are limiting your options for nutrition. Which actually goes back to the problem with many people eating a standard diet - they eat very little variety.
My concern is solely with a 1yr old being on a strict vegan diet, not being vegetarian/vegan generally speaking.
Despite our best efforts to be vegan as a family, the toddler picky stage landed DS1 in a tough situation. He began eating our wood furniture. He also began to pick up pieces of clay cat litter off the ground and eat those. It took a trip to the pedi to figure out that he had iron deficiency and PICA.
I don't particularly have a horse in this race, either way, but I did want to just speak briefly to the comment above; I lived in South Korea for 7 years, and they have entire meals/courses/specialties that are very heavily tofu-based. One of their most prominent condiments (used in a large number of their soup bases) is based on it, and they also drink large quantities of soy milk.
I can appreciate the general message behind the statement; however, considering the vast culinary differences that exist between the Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Koreans and Thais (just to name a few) Any claims about what the "average person living in an Asian country" eats are bound to be full of errors.
You even say here that not everyone has evolved to digest milk. Growing up my mother was told "even cows wean their calves off milk." I'm in the boat that it's not meant to be an every day sort of beverage. I don't plan on giving DD cow's milk but I hope to breastfeed past a year. DD will probably be a vegetarian, if she's given meat it would be a rare occasion.
I also think you're giving non-vegetarians/non-vegans a lot of credit when you mention "you should be able to get all your nutrients from your diet in the form of real food." Food is fortified because most people weren't getting nutrients from the right place. A well balanced vegetarian diet usually has more planning put behind it to limit the amount of deficiencies whereas people running to get their $1 hamburger and french fries are missing a whole lot.
I wouldn't choose to make DD a vegan, but I'm not a vegan and I eat 2 eggs almost every day so I don't have the mindset of a vegan. To OP - I would start with a vegetarian diet and make sure your LO is doing fine before cutting all dairy & by-products from the diet.
For adults, milk is unnecessary although not unilaterally bad. However, for the offspring of mammals - in this case, a human child - it is in fact a biologically expected part of their diet and necessary source of nutrients.
Infants and small children NEED the makeup of nutrients (fats/proteins/vit/min) found in milk, preferably breast milk as it's the correct percentages and more bio-available than other animal milks. Quite frankly, a person stopping milk consumption at age 1 is unnatural from a biological standpoint.
People can argue the merits of vegetarianism/veganism for adults until the cows come home (harhar!) but this conversation keeps getting conflated by the assumption that the nutritional needs of a 1yr old and that of an adult are the same.