Your thoughts again (re: carseats)

Scramblersmom

This is kind of XP on my BMB but I am pretty interested in the over 35 crowd's thoughts on this topic. DS just turned 18 mos and his pedi has always been pro RF until DS is 2 yo per the AAP recs. At the appointment today his pedi said that DS was plenty big enough and we can go ahead and turn him FF. Our pedi has been in practice for quite awhile and has 6 kids of his own. Generally speaking, I am not for or against the 2 yo rec per se.

 We have been having a hell of a time getting DS in and out of his seat in our smaller vehicles without banging him up so we were considering switching him around soon; within a couple of months. I also realize that some people with 2 kids can't possibly have 2 car seats RF and still be able to drive the car.

What do the 35+ year olds say about this?

ETA: I am kind of interested if there is a difference in opinions between different age groups of the parents.

bklynbridecesh

I'll be 42 y.o.  I never grew up with car seats.  Hell, we all piled into the back of station wagons going at ridiculous speeds without even a seat belt.  So, my view is that we are a little over cautious these days, and I also believe that corporate greed under the guise of "let's keep our children safe" is the underlying reason that there are all these new regulations so we have to spend more money.  I moved all my kids FF at age one.  They can't fit RFing any more.  And I refuse to buy a larger car or minivan. 

doodlemonkey22

With our first DS we switched to FF a few weeks after turning 1. Back then it was only recommended until age 1. Now with second DS we are trying to stay RF. But, as you've pointed out, it's hard to get baby out of RF in a small car. 2nd DS is 14 months and weighs close to 30 lbs. (he's a big boy). DH always bumps DS's head getting him out. Don't think we're going to make it to 2 with the RF. And these convertible car seats that can be RF and FF are HUGE. Buying a bigger car/minivan to accommodate these bigger seats is just not possible for everyone.

 I understand the reasoning behind RF until at least age 2. I don't disagree with it, but we're not that worried about switching to FF. I think about when we were growing up and sitting on an adult's lap was perfectly legal and thought to be safe. The way I see it is that at least my kids are strapped into a car seat. They're good.

2Gma

doodlemonkey22:

I understand the reasoning behind RF until at least age 2. I don't disagree with it, but we're not that worried about switching to FF. I think about when we were growing up and sitting on an adult's lap was perfectly legal and thought to be safe. The way I see it is that at least my kids are strapped into a car seat. They're good.

Agreed.  Both of my girls were slightly small for their age but I still turned them both at 18 months.  They were just much happier for car rides, bad reason I know, but considering the above I felt safe doing it.

kristennd

We didn't have the rules but we also knew several families whose children were seriously injured or worse in accidents as a result, so I'm fine with the new system.

Frankly in our car it will be harder to get him into the seat FF than RF, so I'm dreading it. But he's just outgrown it height-wise, so we have no choice. He's always been happy in the car so there was no reason to mess with it.

ELF4321

I have mixed feelings on this.  I remember riding on the floor of the backseat when I was little, as well as in the back of my grandfather's station wagon.  It's a miracle we all survived childhood, right?  

DD is huge (she's been cruising along at the 90-95% percentile for height and weight), so I suspect we'll run into the same issue of having to think about forward-facing before her second birthday.  I do plan to keep her RF as long as reasonably possible, though, because the studies I've seen quoted DO seem to support the increased safety factor with RF. 

But I wouldn't negatively judge anyone in your situation for switching -- I mean, they just changed the recommendation in the last couple of years so it's not like you'd be doing anything that millions of parents over the past decade haven't done.

aurora1974

I have an 18yo and a 14 month old.  When DD1 was little the rec was ff at age 1.  I was rear ended a couple times with her in the car after 1 and she didn't even feel it. Granted, they weren't high speed crashes, but still, she had no ill effects from being ff.  However, I am keeping DD2 rear facing until she either gets too tall or reaches age 2.  I don't really have a strong feeling about it either way at this point, but I do know that I will turn her at 2 no matter what and not keep her rf until 4 or older like I've seen many people comment that they do.  

Scramblersmom

My BMB is in a bit of an uproar about it but I was thinking that this board (and me) were maybe not as stringent due to our upbringing. I am like most of you in that we rode around either without or with minimal restraints in vehicles. My Mom had some crappy car seat for me but she said it was mostly just so the kids could look out the window.  

I am definitely pro car seats but maybe not as adamant about the 2 yo guidelines. I was thinking that maybe me being less adamant about it was because of my age and I feel that kids are super protected now even if they are changed to FF earlier. I definitely think the recs are based on safety studies  but I also think switching him a couple of months before 2 really won't matter either. I am also not against anyone who chooses to wait it out. 

DH and I were pretty surprised that our pedi, who was adamant about sticking to the 2 yo guidelines, changed his tune today. We didn't even inquire about it. We may change him FF within the next few months though because we are having a rough time getting him in and out of our small car without banging him up. I am also having a really hard time with my arthritis in my spine and having to get into contorted positions to get him in and out. Guess we will wait as long as we can but DH and I think it will probably be before DS turns 2.

 Thanks for sharing! 

mwd

We kept both kids RF until 18 mos., due to height. Weight was not an issue (DS at 4 1/2 still does not weigh enough for a booster seat, but is certainly tall enough).  Good luck making this decision! 

stever

DS1 is big, we used to only have a smallish car and he RF'd until he was a few months over 2. It was a pain towards the end but worth it since he was safer.

KateLouise

I think your driving habits are also somehting to take into consideration.

Obviously even a low small bump can hurt a child, but we travel on the open road every day to and from work. So to me it's worth doing what I can to minimise potential harm to my kids. If you only drive a handful of times a week, in low speed areas then the risk is lower.

But I'm also in NZ, and honestly we're not that great at driving over here. 

To me it's a very minimal extra hassle to keep LO RF to two years as our carseat weight limit allows for it, and I can handle a slight extra strain.

But I am overly cautious by nature and always think, how would I feel if the worst happened. I was the same in pregnancy with all the food rules. I thought to myself, "If the worst happened, would that piece of ham have been worth it to me." Invariably the answer was no. 

shelley1002

The choice is yours.

If you are having issues in the smaller car you can turn the seat FF in that car and leave him RF in the other.

Also, you can check your seat's height and weight limits for RF.

I am waiting as close to 2 as I can but would have no problem turning him now if I was having difficulties getting DS in and out.

mommytoconnor

I had my son RF until 2.  I am a nurse and see all too often what happens to kids when there is a car accident.  I would much rather follow the AAP recommendations and end up with a broken leg than a kid with a head injury.  That's just my view.  My son was also big for his age, was 36 inches tall and 34 pounds, so it wasn't easy but I did it for the protection of my child.  I am not saying that he wouldn't have been totally fine FF, but if the AAP is recommending something I tend to see why and usually follow their recommendations.

njlurker1

I lurk a lot, but don't post often.  I, too, have a small car and RF is such a pain.   We are TTC again and have considered we will likely not be able to put 2 RF seats in either of our vehicles.  Everyone keeps asking me when we can/will switch him to FF and I have been anxious to do so and considering it at 1 year.  I admit, I didn't really know why RF was so important until I ran across this link on another board:

https://www.cpsafety.com/articles/stayrearfacing.aspx (scroll down to videos)

After watching this, my husband and I agreed to keep LO RF as long as possible.

CheezeFace

bklynbridecesh:

I'll be 42 y.o.  I never grew up with car seats.  Hell, we all piled into the back of station wagons going at ridiculous speeds without even a seat belt.  So, my view is that we are a little over cautious these days. 

This was us.  I remember standing on my head in the backseat of our VW van while my parents drove on the "windy road" because my sister and I thought it was hilarious to topple over each other.  Sheesh.

However, I'm going to be the wet blanket on this party.  I don't want you to think that I'm coming off as judgmental - I don't think anyone who FF their child at 1 is a bad parent by any means.  And my opinion has been formed very emotionally.  

I have to disagree with the overcautious part of the statement.  It may seem overcautious but all it takes is one loss to become hyper vigilant about auto safety. I lost my best friend of 20+ years and her sons were critically injured four years ago.  She was wearing her seatbelt properly - the kids were not.  Her youngest BEGGED to be taken out of his booster - he's on the short side and the kids were making fun of him. He made the height requirement but was a wee bit shy of the weight requirement (or vice-versa - I can't remember) anyway, she acquiesced. The older boy HATED wearing his shoulder harness on his belt so he was only wearing his lap belt (you had to watch him like a hawk...he was sneaky this way).  Both were strapped in, but not the *safest* they could have been...KWIM?  I hope I didn't just make her soundlike a bad Mom - she was such a good, loving Mom.  

Long story short, because one driver wasn't paying attention two critically injured children are now growing up without their Mom.  After watching surgery, after surgery after surgery all I could think was would they have been OK if they had been harnessed more safely??  

Crap.  Now I'm crying. 

I'm sorry to be such a Debbie Downer.  My intention isn't to be a sad sap but things like this happen.  To real people every, single day.  It changed the way I drive.  Hell, it changed the way I live. I guess my point is that unlike many other things you expose your children to - you have NO CONTROL of other drivers on the road.  Why not give the LO's that extra ounce of safety if you can? (However, if your car doesn't accommodate - I get that...My small SUV barely allows us to RF...I'm not saying buy a new car or go to extremes)

My DS is 17 months and rear facing. I'll keep him RF as long as possible.  Until 3 or 4ish...not common in the States but very common in Europe.

bklynbridecesh

CheezeFace:

bklynbridecesh:

I'll be 42 y.o.  I never grew up with car seats.  Hell, we all piled into the back of station wagons going at ridiculous speeds without even a seat belt.  So, my view is that we are a little over cautious these days. 

This was us.  I remember standing on my head in the backseat of our VW van while my parents drove on the "windy road" because my sister and I thought it was hilarious to topple over each other.  Sheesh.

However, I'm going to be the wet blanket on this party.  I don't want you to think that I'm coming off as judgmental - I don't think anyone who FF their child at 1 is a bad parent by any means.  And my opinion has been formed very emotionally.  

I have to disagree with the overcautious part of the statement.  It may seem overcautious but all it takes is one loss to become hyper vigilant about auto safety. I lost my best friend of 20+ years and her sons were critically injured four years ago.  She was wearing her seatbelt properly - the kids were not.  Her youngest BEGGED to be taken out of his booster - he's on the short side and the kids were making fun of him. He made the height requirement but was a wee bit shy of the weight requirement (or vice-versa - I can't remember) anyway, she acquiesced. The older boy HATED wearing his shoulder harness on his belt so he was only wearing his lap belt (you had to watch him like a hawk...he was sneaky this way).  Both were strapped in, but not the *safest* they could have been...KWIM?  I hope I didn't just make her soundlike a bad Mom - she was such a good, loving Mom.  

Long story short, because one driver wasn't paying attention two critically injured children are now growing up without their Mom.  After watching surgery, after surgery after surgery all I could think was would they have been OK if they had been harnessed more safely??  

Crap.  Now I'm crying. 

I'm sorry to be such a Debbie Downer.  My intention isn't to be a sad sap but things like this happen.  To real people every, single day.  It changed the way I drive.  Hell, it changed the way I live. I guess my point is that unlike many other things you expose your children to - you have NO CONTROL of other drivers on the road.  Why not give the LO's that extra ounce of safety if you can? (However, if your car doesn't accommodate - I get that...My small SUV barely allows us to RF...I'm not saying buy a new car or go to extremes)

My DS is 17 months and rear facing. I'll keep him RF as long as possible.  Until 3 or 4ish...not common in the States but very common in Europe.

I am so sorry about your friend and her two sons. And you are right. These terrible things happen every day to people....and sometimes we have no control over what happens. We all have to be hypervigilant. I think it's also important to know your driving habits. I live in Brooklyn, NY, and rarely drive on highways, so our speeds are much slower, and we are much more likely to get rear ended from a stupid driver texting for example. I also believe that kids should be in a five point harness as long as possible. They slip under or over lap and shoulder belts in crashes. Also, we remove any objects that are not tethered down in the car, like tissue boxes, etc. They become flying missiles at high speeds. In my case, I have three kids in a Toyota Corolla. It's just not an option to keep them RFing for us. But we drive slowly and use caution. Always.

Scramblersmom

bklynbridecesh:

CheezeFace:

bklynbridecesh:

I'll be 42 y.o.  I never grew up with car seats.  Hell, we all piled into the back of station wagons going at ridiculous speeds without even a seat belt.  So, my view is that we are a little over cautious these days. 

This was us.  I remember standing on my head in the backseat of our VW van while my parents drove on the "windy road" because my sister and I thought it was hilarious to topple over each other.  Sheesh.

However, I'm going to be the wet blanket on this party.  I don't want you to think that I'm coming off as judgmental - I don't think anyone who FF their child at 1 is a bad parent by any means.  And my opinion has been formed very emotionally.  

I have to disagree with the overcautious part of the statement.  It may seem overcautious but all it takes is one loss to become hyper vigilant about auto safety. I lost my best friend of 20+ years and her sons were critically injured four years ago.  She was wearing her seatbelt properly - the kids were not.  Her youngest BEGGED to be taken out of his booster - he's on the short side and the kids were making fun of him. He made the height requirement but was a wee bit shy of the weight requirement (or vice-versa - I can't remember) anyway, she acquiesced. The older boy HATED wearing his shoulder harness on his belt so he was only wearing his lap belt (you had to watch him like a hawk...he was sneaky this way).  Both were strapped in, but not the *safest* they could have been...KWIM?  I hope I didn't just make her soundlike a bad Mom - she was such a good, loving Mom.  

Long story short, because one driver wasn't paying attention two critically injured children are now growing up without their Mom.  After watching surgery, after surgery after surgery all I could think was would they have been OK if they had been harnessed more safely??  

Crap.  Now I'm crying. 

I'm sorry to be such a Debbie Downer.  

I am so sorry about your friend and her two sons. And you are right. These terrible things happen every day to people....and sometimes we have no control over what happens. We all have to be hypervigilant. I think it's also important to know your driving habits. I live in Brooklyn, NY, and rarely drive on highways, so our speeds are much slower, and we are much more likely to get rear ended from a stupid driver texting for example. I also believe that kids should be in a five point harness as long as possible. They slip under or over lap and shoulder belts in crashes. Also, we remove any objects that are not tethered down in the car, like tissue boxes, etc. They become flying missiles at high speeds. In my case, I have three kids in a Toyota Corolla. It's just not an option to keep them RFing for us. But we drive slowly and use caution. Always.

Cheezface, you are not being a downer at all. I am so very sorry that this happened to your friend and this just breaks my heart. Lots of hugs to you.

It does go through my mind that if something were to happen then I know I would probably never forgive myself. All of the accidents I have been in so far have been from someone not paying attention to where they are going and they rear-end me. That of course doesn't mean that is the only type of accident I will ever be in. Where I live now we mostly drive on 2 lane highways and head on accidents are much more likely to occur. This makes me much more hesitant to turn him. I have also become uber paranoid driving on the highway since DS was born. I am praying we can move back into town within the next couple of years in part so I don't have to drive on that highway anymore.

On the other side of the coin, I am not sure if we would make it to 2 yo regardless. I measured from the top of his head to the top of the car seat and he only has 2.5 inches left before we have to turn him due to car seat instructions. At the rate he has been growing we may be lucky if we can keep him RF until 21 mos.

We have a Toyota Corolla too and between the tiny car and the arthritis in my spine and other joints it is getting very hard to fold up my kid and lift him into his seat. This has to get easier at some point right?? There has to be a point when they can at least get themselves into the seat right?? That would be very helpful!

BTW, I had no idea that they kept kids RF until 3 or 4 in Europe. I was actually thinking of looking this up earlier this week so I am very glad you mentioned it. I was really curious because they seem to be ahead of the curve on many things plus they tend to drive tiny cars. Now I am curious which car seats they use. Ours is supposed to be from Britain but as I said, another 2.5 inches and we have no choice but to turn him.

 

CheezeFace

Thanks for your kind words, ladies.  I actually logged on today ready to make apologies.  I really hope I didn't come off as preachy.  Anything having to do with cars, traffic, etc...has become an extremely emotionally charged issue for me. I despise telling people about my BFF's accident.  It was 4 years ago but it is still raw for me.  I literally miss her every, single day.  Anytime apples are on sale or I see a silver car or my DS does something that confounds me I miss her.  So deeply.  

Stupid, stupid, avoidable accident.

Anyway, I think pp was correct in saying that driving habits are important to consider.  I live in AK and our roads are dangerous at the best of times.  High speeds, ice and iffy maintenance all make for a perfect storm for bad accidents - add to that someone who was texting and, well, I know how that turns out.  If I still lived in NYC where I rarely drove, I wouldn't be as concerned as I am now.  

Also you have to take into consideration what works for your family...if it's a serious pain (literally) for you to get your LO in the car then this isn't working for either of you...finding that balance between safety and livability is hard sometimes.   

stever

smit5009:

bklynbridecesh:

CheezeFace:

bklynbridecesh:

I'll be 42 y.o.  I never grew up with car seats.  Hell, we all piled into the back of station wagons going at ridiculous speeds without even a seat belt.  So, my view is that we are a little over cautious these days. 

This was us.  I remember standing on my head in the backseat of our VW van while my parents drove on the "windy road" because my sister and I thought it was hilarious to topple over each other.  Sheesh.

However, I'm going to be the wet blanket on this party.  I don't want you to think that I'm coming off as judgmental - I don't think anyone who FF their child at 1 is a bad parent by any means.  And my opinion has been formed very emotionally.  

I have to disagree with the overcautious part of the statement.  It may seem overcautious but all it takes is one loss to become hyper vigilant about auto safety. I lost my best friend of 20+ years and her sons were critically injured four years ago.  She was wearing her seatbelt properly - the kids were not.  Her youngest BEGGED to be taken out of his booster - he's on the short side and the kids were making fun of him. He made the height requirement but was a wee bit shy of the weight requirement (or vice-versa - I can't remember) anyway, she acquiesced. The older boy HATED wearing his shoulder harness on his belt so he was only wearing his lap belt (you had to watch him like a hawk...he was sneaky this way).  Both were strapped in, but not the *safest* they could have been...KWIM?  I hope I didn't just make her soundlike a bad Mom - she was such a good, loving Mom.  

Long story short, because one driver wasn't paying attention two critically injured children are now growing up without their Mom.  After watching surgery, after surgery after surgery all I could think was would they have been OK if they had been harnessed more safely??  

Crap.  Now I'm crying. 

I'm sorry to be such a Debbie Downer.  

I am so sorry about your friend and her two sons. And you are right. These terrible things happen every day to people....and sometimes we have no control over what happens. We all have to be hypervigilant. I think it's also important to know your driving habits. I live in Brooklyn, NY, and rarely drive on highways, so our speeds are much slower, and we are much more likely to get rear ended from a stupid driver texting for example. I also believe that kids should be in a five point harness as long as possible. They slip under or over lap and shoulder belts in crashes. Also, we remove any objects that are not tethered down in the car, like tissue boxes, etc. They become flying missiles at high speeds. In my case, I have three kids in a Toyota Corolla. It's just not an option to keep them RFing for us. But we drive slowly and use caution. Always.

Cheezface, you are not being a downer at all. I am so very sorry that this happened to your friend and this just breaks my heart. Lots of hugs to you.

It does go through my mind that if something were to happen then I know I would probably never forgive myself. All of the accidents I have been in so far have been from someone not paying attention to where they are going and they rear-end me. That of course doesn't mean that is the only type of accident I will ever be in. Where I live now we mostly drive on 2 lane highways and head on accidents are much more likely to occur. This makes me much more hesitant to turn him. I have also become uber paranoid driving on the highway since DS was born. I am praying we can move back into town within the next couple of years in part so I don't have to drive on that highway anymore.

On the other side of the coin, I am not sure if we would make it to 2 yo regardless. I measured from the top of his head to the top of the car seat and he only has 2.5 inches left before we have to turn him due to car seat instructions. At the rate he has been growing we may be lucky if we can keep him RF until 21 mos.

We have a Toyota Corolla too and between the tiny car and the arthritis in my spine and other joints it is getting very hard to fold up my kid and lift him into his seat. This has to get easier at some point right?? There has to be a point when they can at least get themselves into the seat right?? That would be very helpful!

BTW, I had no idea that they kept kids RF until 3 or 4 in Europe. I was actually thinking of looking this up earlier this week so I am very glad you mentioned it. I was really curious because they seem to be ahead of the curve on many things plus they tend to drive tiny cars. Now I am curious which car seats they use. Ours is supposed to be from Britain but as I said, another 2.5 inches and we have no choice but to turn him.

I am so sorry Cheezeface.

And yeah, DH is European and my IL's suggested turning our niece and nephew around early and were surprised at being shot down by SIL.

doodlemonkey22

wow lots of activity since I last checked this post. A few people said that it depends on driving habits. So true. We live in a big city and only drive on the weekends. If we lived in the burbs or small town where you need to drive everywhere and people drive faster I'd probably be more concerned about staying RF longer. Also nice to hear other families are making do with a small car. We have a Mazda. I'm practically kissing the windshield with DS's bulky RF car seat behind me. My suburban friends think we're crazy for not buying a bigger car. Well if we could we would. I would LOVE a minivan.  We just can't afford it, period. Nice to know we're not the only ones. Now just need to figure out how we're gonna fit 3 seats in the back since we're expecting #3 in Aug. 

gimmietimmies

I'm a bit late to the game, but I really do need to share. Let me preface by saying that I don't judge anyone here, because you're making a judgement call as a parent.

I am pro-ERF. The 2 year rf rec has been out over a decade, per the NHSTA, it's just taken this long for the information to be communicated and the AAP to update their stance. The info on the benefits of rf to 4 have been out since the sixties and I've read articles on the opposition from automakers and politicians that will make your heads spin (esp. when a certain person in the auto industry was pushing for mandatory seatbelts and he was basically told PFO). The NHSTA now advocates rf as close to 4 as possible and harness to 7-8.

What the recommendation to age 4 is for, means that the skelton of a 3 year old is beginning to ossify and limit the amount the spinal cord will stretch. This usually is at a minimum by the age of 4. Before then, the vertabrae can seperate up to 3-4" where the spinal cord only stretches less than 1". This is a common injury to kids that forward face, as well as broken legs. There are no documented cases of broken legs due to rf. FF isn't seen as a develpmental milestone or to do with emotional maturity, it's purely skeletal. And physics is physics. Neck injuries can occur even at 30mph or less regardless.

We rf L until 12m, simply because there were no seats available here at the time that fit him rf beyond that. I tried my damdest to import one and was blocked. I didn't turn the girls early, they all made at least two, or 3 in K's case. S is still rf. Our limitation is tall kids (95+%ile) and lack of seats. We have the Radian and it's the only seat that works as the Foonf in Canada is only rated to 40lbs. You guys at least have the Foonf to 50, and also have the Nextfit, and the Headwise/MySize to choose from.

As for fitting in tiny spaces, believe it or not, the longest rf seats fit the best in tiny spaces. I have installed our Radian rf in our Mini with the angle adjuster and still had leg room to spare.

Aside from my parents being outliers using car seats with my brother and I, I know 9 (no, not a typo) kids who have died in car accidents. The hardest one to take was L's friend, she was killed along with her dad, his gf, her sister, and the gf's toddler. Rear ended by a cement truck that hit them at a stop light doing well over 60mph. I know proper seats wouldn't have helped in that case, but in the others they would have since the other occupants in those accidents survived with minor injuries.

The one that for me, hurts far worse than anything is L's organ donor. He would be dead, absolutely, if that little boy had not died.  His mom will have that hurt for the rest of his life and my guilt over that is huge. And yes, if he had been in a proper seat, used correctly he would have lived. I am eternally thankful to her. It will be the 11th anniversary of his passing on April 21st.

And if anyone is truly interested in links for anything I've posted, I'll share.

2ndGeneration

I'm 41, and my kids range from 20-9 years old. So, the reccommendation of RF has changed since I had an infant. Like another PP mentioned, the seats of that time simply didn't accomodate RF at the ages they do now.

 

 That being said, I think it makes sense, given what we know about kids skeletons and stuff, to try to keep them RF for awhile. I understand about  small cars and gigundo seats  but I think, in OP's situation, I'd maybe try to teach kiddo to help get himself in the seat-have him practice climbing in-or invest in a seat that fits the car better. I wonder if there are any seats that rotate for easy access?

Strunella

We kept DS RF for as long as possible, and he was just shy of 2 when we switched him to FF.  He is off the charts for height and weight and was starting to get smushed RF.  I have a big SUV, but that didn't prevent him from just getting too big for RF.

gimmietimmies

2ndGeneration:

I'm 41, and my kids range from 20-9 years old. So, the reccommendation of RF has changed since I had an infant. Like another PP mentioned, the seats of that time simply didn't accomodate RF at the ages they do now.

 That being said, I think it makes sense, given what we know about kids skeletons and stuff, to try to keep them RF for awhile. I understand about  small cars and gigundo seats  but I think, in OP's situation, I'd maybe try to teach kiddo to help get himself in the seat-have him practice climbing in-or invest in a seat that fits the car better. I wonder if there are any seats that rotate for easy access?

There are two I can think of off the top of my head, and they are uber expensive and are outgrown rather quickly rf and ff. Best bet in that case really is a Radian, the side profile is really low and easy for them to climb in and out of.

gimmietimmies

2ndGeneration:

I'm 41, and my kids range from 20-9 years old. So, the reccommendation of RF has changed since I had an infant. Like another PP mentioned, the seats of that time simply didn't accomodate RF at the ages they do now.

 That being said, I think it makes sense, given what we know about kids skeletons and stuff, to try to keep them RF for awhile. I understand about  small cars and gigundo seats  but I think, in OP's situation, I'd maybe try to teach kiddo to help get himself in the seat-have him practice climbing in-or invest in a seat that fits the car better. I wonder if there are any seats that rotate for easy access?

There are two I can think of off the top of my head, and they are uber expensive and are outgrown rather quickly rf and ff. Best bet in that case really is a Radian, the side profile is really low and easy for them to climb in and out of.

gimmietimmies

Strunella:

We kept DS RF for as long as possible, and he was just shy of 2 when we switched him to FF.  He is off the charts for height and weight and was starting to get smushed RF.  I have a big SUV, but that didn't prevent him from just getting too big for RF.

Smushed how? Which seat, the seat is usually the culprit. Especially Recaros. 

Out of curiosity, how tall was he at two. There's another Bumpie who's 2.5 year old who's ds is the same age and he was 47 lbs and 42" at 2, and I thought S was tall. He can't fit any rf seats. She's about 35 lbs and about 38" (at Christmas).

Scramblersmom

I love all of you ladies on this board! It is so nice to be able to share thoughts and opinions without a huge war breaking out and I have been so interested in everything everyone has to say. There has been some things I didn't know that I have now learned about too.

These are generally the thoughts that keep going through my head on the topic:

1.) We didn't really have car seats and seat belts weren't even mandatory and we all survived. Thus keeping DS in a car seat alone (regardless if RF or FF) is keeping him much, much safer than we were.

2.) The odds that we will be in such a horrible accident that would result in very serious injury or death during DS's childhood is extremely slim.

3.) Statistics don't apply to individuals so it doesn't matter what the stats are if you are the one in the horrible accident. 

4.) It physically hurts to get DS in and out of his car seat, we have a tiny car and DS is pretty big. I am also tired of his legs getting stuck and twisted, or his head banged up on the roof of the car trying to get him in and out. It is time to turn him FF.

5.) If we did get into a serious accident I would probably never forgive myself  if he was hurt and we had turned him FF. 

6.)  We will be lucky if we don't have to turn him FF anyway before 2 since he is likely to outgrow his car seat RF limits.

7.) It would be better to keep him RF until #6 happens.

8.) Does 21 mos vs 24 mos really matter? 

9.) In practicality these seats aren't really made for ERF since they don't fit in the car worth a crap. Most people can not have 2 kids RF in their car at the same time and still be able to drive the car.  

10.) DH wants him turned now so he may be turned regardless of what I think especially since the pedi said to go ahead and turn him.

11.) Two years ago everyone was turning their kid FF at 1 yo. We have already made it to 18 mos so that alone is better.

Sorry for the rambling thoughts but this is generally what is always going through my mind on the topic.  That is why it has been so hard for me to make a decision on it. I want my son to be as safe as possible but sometimes the  practicality of RF is really weighing on us. It is #3 and #5 why he is still RF and I am trying to hold out as long as possible. Some days I am ready to give up though.

At the end of the day, and regardless of my thoughts, I am still surprised that the pedi said to go ahead and turn him, without us inquiring, and after the pedi was so pro RF until 2. It would be interesting to have asked him why he changed his tune. Also, I was really curious too if the age of the member on this board made a difference in the opinions being posted and if my age, hence experiences, had anything to do with me being a little more on the fence about it.

Thanks so much for your input on  this topic. Again, it is so nice to have a conversation about something rather than a war breaking out!  

gimmietimmies

All good thoughts! I can answer #3 to some degree, yes to a point the stats matter to the individual. Both Canada and the US report motor vehicle collisions as the number one reason for fatalities between the ages of 1 - 5, and most between 2-4. They are more likely to die (or be injured in a car accident) than any illness or medical condition combined.

The rate of fatality and injury is significantly lowered since car seats were made mandatory, and continue to reduce as compliance in use, correct usage, and prevalence of erf increases. One set of data not only from crash tests but accident data puts rf up to age 4 at 532% safer than ff in the same age group. Cool stats huh! These are collected by the CDC, the NHSTA and Transport Canada (et al).

But you're right, stats don't matter to a point, the family I mentioned were in what they called an unsurvivable accident, rf or ff would not have mattered.

8. Yes, still matters. That falls back to the skeletal ossification and your ped probably is only up to date on the AAP guidelines and not the NHSTA guidelines, which isn't unusual for peds. At least he didn't say ff at one, that seems to still be common unfortunately.

9. The seats I mentioned earlier will erf most kids to 3 or more, even 95%ile kids with room for tall parents.::waves hand:: I have a long inseam, I have to push my seat back as far as my dad who is 6'1". The Radian we have fits behind the seats for sure in the Mini Cooper and has clearance of at least 2" when my seat is fully adjusted. Since the curtain airbag sensors are in the passenger seat, if a taller person had to be back there you can put it behind the driver's seat and have it fully braced (more than touching without changing the angle) because the Radian allows that kind of installation, which is ideal for small cars. The only time it blows goats is when all the seats have advanced airbags.

And with the right seats almost all cars (except the dumb Fiat 500) can have 2 rf seats, and even three. One of the ladies on the car seat forums I go on rf three seats in her Honda Accord and tall parents. It is impossible with certain car seats, but those culprits are known in the car seat community ::cough cough alphaomega3n1 cough::.

Is the age on this board a factor? No, I don't think so. The people I've come across that are wanting to learn and are open to learning more or gathering more information. They come from all levels of education, socio-economic backgrounds, cultural backgrounds, and age brackets. I have a tech I've been conversing with in Toronto for 13 years, she's my age. I know another tech that's 15 years younger, and she's just as passionate. To me it's how the information is presented, and if the person recieving it is receptive and isn't taking it as an attack on them as a parent (that one is huge).

If you really are interested in gathering info, on Facebook Car Seat for the Littles is the best collection of knowledgable techs I know outside of car-seat.org. It move faster so you are getting to see all sorts of questions asked and answered. You don't have to ask anything, you can just lurk. And look at the picture albums, there are lots of photos of cars and car seat combos and install pics. It's a closed group and they are fairly quick at approving new members. I like that it can't be seen by nonmembers. I have family and friends that would be all sorts of offended if they saw the posts (even though it's not about or directed at them).

And holy schieze, tl:dr. Sorry!! You are right, if this was posted on most of the other boards it would have gone nuclear. 

CheezeFace

gimmietimmies:

 You are right, if this was posted on most of the other boards it would have gone nuclear. 

I'm raising my glass of wine in celebration of a board of ladies that can have a lively, diversified and typically nasty-comment-inducing conversation with respect, civility and genuine concern for each other's individual situations.

Maybe we should all go into politics and get some real work done!

 

 

 

itsmevkb

With my older two the recommendation was still keep them rear facing for a year.  With my third it was upped to two years.  He screamed every second he was in the car seat and it was horrible.  It was very distracting not to mention then also having the older two trying to yell above his screaming.  At a year I turned him around to see if it would help the screaming and crying and yep, perfectly content and quiet.  So yea, I'll risk the very rare internal decapitation, in exchange for me being a more attentive driver because I finally have a little peace and quiet in the car.  I get that I can't control other drivers but there are so many things I can't control and I also know I can't keep my kids safe 100% of the time.  Right now I'm doing what I think makes them the safest even if the many people wouldn't agree.

Scramblersmom

gimmietimmies:

All good thoughts! I can answer #3 to some degree, yes to a point the stats matter to the individual. Both Canada and the US report motor vehicle collisions as the number one reason for fatalities between the ages of 1 - 5, and most between 2-4. They are more likely to die (or be injured in a car accident) than any illness or medical condition combined.

The rate of fatality and injury is significantly lowered since car seats were made mandatory, and continue to reduce as compliance in use, correct usage, and prevalence of erf increases. One set of data not only from crash tests but accident data puts rf up to age 4 at 532% safer than ff in the same age group. Cool stats huh! These are collected by the CDC, the NHSTA and Transport Canada (et al).

But you're right, stats don't matter to a point, the family I mentioned were in what they called an unsurvivable accident, rf or ff would not have mattered.

8. Yes, still matters. That falls back to the skeletal ossification and your ped probably is only up to date on the AAP guidelines and not the NHSTA guidelines, which isn't unusual for peds. At least he didn't say ff at one, that seems to still be common unfortunately.

9. The seats I mentioned earlier will erf most kids to 3 or more, even 95%ile kids with room for tall parents.::waves hand:: I have a long inseam, I have to push my seat back as far as my dad who is 6'1". The Radian we have fits behind the seats for sure in the Mini Cooper and has clearance of at least 2" when my seat is fully adjusted. Since the curtain airbag sensors are in the passenger seat, if a taller person had to be back there you can put it behind the driver's seat and have it fully braced (more than touching without changing the angle) because the Radian allows that kind of installation, which is ideal for small cars. The only time it blows goats is when all the seats have advanced airbags.

And with the right seats almost all cars (except the dumb Fiat 500) can have 2 rf seats, and even three. One of the ladies on the car seat forums I go on rf three seats in her Honda Accord and tall parents. It is impossible with certain car seats, but those culprits are known in the car seat community ::cough cough alphaomega3n1 cough::.

Is the age on this board a factor? No, I don't think so. The people I've come across that are wanting to learn and are open to learning more or gathering more information. They come from all levels of education, socio-economic backgrounds, cultural backgrounds, and age brackets. I have a tech I've been conversing with in Toronto for 13 years, she's my age. I know another tech that's 15 years younger, and she's just as passionate. To me it's how the information is presented, and if the person recieving it is receptive and isn't taking it as an attack on them as a parent (that one is huge).

If you really are interested in gathering info, on Facebook Car Seat for the Littles is the best collection of knowledgable techs I know outside of car-seat.org. It move faster so you are getting to see all sorts of questions asked and answered. You don't have to ask anything, you can just lurk. And look at the picture albums, there are lots of photos of cars and car seat combos and install pics. It's a closed group and they are fairly quick at approving new members. I like that it can't be seen by nonmembers. I have family and friends that would be all sorts of offended if they saw the posts (even though it's not about or directed at them).

And holy schieze, tl:dr. Sorry!! You are right, if this was posted on most of the other boards it would have gone nuclear. 

Just to clarify the stats, what I meant is that even if the stats say the actual risk is extremely low, if it is my kid that gets killed then the risk is 100%. Not sure if I clarified what I meant any better but I meant it in a way to support ERF.   Also with #1 we never had any friends or family (meaning children) that were injured in a car accident thankfully but it does definitely happen.

 I finally got a chance to check out the swivel base car seats and the Radian. The swivels are bulkier than the Britax we have now but the Radian has a way lower profile than our Britax. We don't have much in the way of options for car seat shopping around here so when we bought DS's convertible we drove really far to our nearest BRU and got the lowest profile one they had. I really wish they had the Radian as it would have made a huge difference for us. I am so glad you told me about this seat because I really think this might work very well for us! I will ask DH about it today and see if we can maybe get it. Thanks again for the great rec!

Cheers to good conversation and helpful suggestions!

MesmrEwe

CheezeFace:

gimmietimmies:

 You are right, if this was posted on most of the other boards it would have gone nuclear. 

I'm raising my glass of wine in celebration of a board of ladies that can have a lively, diversified and typically nasty-comment-inducing conversation with respect, civility and genuine concern for each other's individual situations.

Maybe we should all go into politics and get some real work done! 

Ditto!  But then again, we were brought up in an age where we learned to "Disagree without being disagreeable".. 

My take on the whole thing - you have to do what works best for your family.  I will say that I got totally judgy with the Mom at my kiddo's daycare who had a small framed 4 and 5yo who were still RF in an expired car seat talking about how much safer it was (the one was in the same seat that I had used with DD before she started in her high back booster)...  All the while not realizing that the seat she was using had expired years ago...

I'm not a fan of the whole RF until 2, granted, I've got DS RF now, but what we're running into is that he was the size of an average 2yo when he was 12mo.  He's bent into a pretzel to get into the car seat, and getting him out, yes, we're also in the "head banging" club and I drive an HHR.  I highly doubt that we're going to make it much longer RF because there just isn't any more ways to bend/twist his legs and still fit into the car seat.  Everyone needs to make a decision on their own circumstances though.  It's a tough call..

Scramblersmom

MesmrEwe:

CheezeFace:

gimmietimmies:

 You are right, if this was posted on most of the other boards it would have gone nuclear. 

I'm raising my glass of wine in celebration of a board of ladies that can have a lively, diversified and typically nasty-comment-inducing conversation with respect, civility and genuine concern for each other's individual situations.

Maybe we should all go into politics and get some real work done! 

 

Ditto!  But then again, we were brought up in an age where we learned to "Disagree without being disagreeable".. 

My take on the whole thing - you have to do what works best for your family.  I will say that I got totally judgy with the Mom at my kiddo's daycare who had a small framed 4 and 5yo who were still RF in an expired car seat talking about how much safer it was (the one was in the same seat that I had used with DD before she started in her high back booster)...  All the while not realizing that the seat she was using had expired years ago...

I'm not a fan of the whole RF until 2, granted, I've got DS RF now, but what we're running into is that he was the size of an average 2yo when he was 12mo.  He's bent into a pretzel to get into the car seat, and getting him out, yes, we're also in the "head banging" club and I drive an HHR.  I highly doubt that we're going to make it much longer RF because there just isn't any more ways to bend/twist his legs and still fit into the car seat.  Everyone needs to make a decision on their own circumstances though.  It's a tough call..

CheezeFace and MesmrEwe , it is very nice to be able to have these types of discussions and to also be able to take other's situations into account. The whole car seat issue would pretty much be moot for me if I didn't have a spine that was completely frozen up until 10 am several days a week. If I didn't have these health issues then I think DS's size and car seat wouldn't be so much of an issue.

Thanks again ladies for the wonderful suggestions, opinions and kindness!

prism207

1-the people who died due to not using seat belts and car seats aren't here to speak for themselves, so this is a silly arguement.

4-sounds like you have a poor car seat for your car.  Find a better one. Car-seat.org is a great resource.  What seat are you using?

8-the recommendation is at least 24 mo, or to the limits of the seat.  Sounds like your seat might have a low limit?  I can't imagine a *normal* sized 18 mo old being almost out of their convertible seat, but I'm not that aware of all the seats.  My *normal* sized boy RFed in his Britax Marathon til 3.25 years old.  He outgrew it by weight, not height too.

9-Depends on the seat and your car.  Again, car-seat.org forums are great for this type of thing.   

11-Not true at all.  My nearly 6 year old ERF til over 3.  We went the longest of his friends, but most everyone kept them RFing past one to some degree.   

 And, FWIW, the pedi is wrong.  Size has little to do with whether it is a good idea to turn FF or not.  It has to do with the strength of the spine, which increases over time.  A 30 lb 1 year old shouldn't FF.

smit5009:

I love all of you ladies on this board! It is so nice to be able to share thoughts and opinions without a huge war breaking out and I have been so interested in everything everyone has to say. There has been some things I didn't know that I have now learned about too.

These are generally the thoughts that keep going through my head on the topic:

1.) We didn't really have car seats and seat belts weren't even mandatory and we all survived. Thus keeping DS in a car seat alone (regardless if RF or FF) is keeping him much, much safer than we were.

2.) The odds that we will be in such a horrible accident that would result in very serious injury or death during DS's childhood is extremely slim.

3.) Statistics don't apply to individuals so it doesn't matter what the stats are if you are the one in the horrible accident. 

4.) It physically hurts to get DS in and out of his car seat, we have a tiny car and DS is pretty big. I am also tired of his legs getting stuck and twisted, or his head banged up on the roof of the car trying to get him in and out. It is time to turn him FF.

5.) If we did get into a serious accident I would probably never forgive myself  if he was hurt and we had turned him FF. 

6.)  We will be lucky if we don't have to turn him FF anyway before 2 since he is likely to outgrow his car seat RF limits.

7.) It would be better to keep him RF until #6 happens.

8.) Does 21 mos vs 24 mos really matter? 

9.) In practicality these seats aren't really made for ERF since they don't fit in the car worth a crap. Most people can not have 2 kids RF in their car at the same time and still be able to drive the car.  

10.) DH wants him turned now so he may be turned regardless of what I think especially since the pedi said to go ahead and turn him.

11.) Two years ago everyone was turning their kid FF at 1 yo. We have already made it to 18 mos so that alone is better.

Sorry for the rambling thoughts but this is generally what is always going through my mind on the topic.  That is why it has been so hard for me to make a decision on it. I want my son to be as safe as possible but sometimes the  practicality of RF is really weighing on us. It is #3 and #5 why he is still RF and I am trying to hold out as long as possible. Some days I am ready to give up though.

At the end of the day, and regardless of my thoughts, I am still surprised that the pedi said to go ahead and turn him, without us inquiring, and after the pedi was so pro RF until 2. It would be interesting to have asked him why he changed his tune. Also, I was really curious too if the age of the member on this board made a difference in the opinions being posted and if my age, hence experiences, had anything to do with me being a little more on the fence about it.

Thanks so much for your input on  this topic. Again, it is so nice to have a conversation about something rather than a war breaking out!  

cecilia1898

I can't wait to turn my DD to FF.  In my naive little world, she'll suddenly stop fighting me when I put her in the car seat because she'll be able to look around and see so much more. My SIL put my nephew FF early on- and he's so good about sitting in the car seat!  My parents were shocked when they saw the fuss my DD puts up with the car seat because according to them and my SIL- my nephew never behaved like that!  

I was disappointed when the pediatrician said w/out hesitation to stay RF until 2.  We're keeping her RF until 2 because I have a hard time disobeying authority figures and I keep hearing a friend of mine say "It's easier to fix a broken ankle than a broken neck"... However, if the pediatrician hadn't been concerned, I would have switched in a heartbeat.

 

gimmietimmies

cecilia1898:

I can't wait to turn my DD to FF.  In my naive little world, she'll suddenly stop fighting me when I put her in the car seat because she'll be able to look around and see so much more. My SIL put my nephew FF early on- and he's so good about sitting in the car seat!  My parents were shocked when they saw the fuss my DD puts up with the car seat because according to them and my SIL- my nephew never behaved like that!  

I was disappointed when the pediatrician said w/out hesitation to stay RF until 2.  We're keeping her RF until 2 because I have a hard time disobeying authority figures and I keep hearing a friend of mine say "It's easier to fix a broken ankle than a broken neck"... However, if the pediatrician hadn't been concerned, I would have switched in a heartbeat.

 

Fighters will still fight. I feel your pain. I threatened my 7 year old with duct tape because she no longer fits her harnessed seat, and she's like a squirrel on pixie sticks with sitting still and worse at screaming. She was a nightmare toddler, and to be honest, turning her sucked because the screaming was no longer projected backwards, it was now in my ears. It's the one time I wished for a soother for older  kids just to make her stop. I realized not much I did was going to change her behavior except to ignore her and realize some kids truly suck being iny the car. And now she's bloody screaming, and in the house. I wish kids came with volume control.

 

And count me in to going into politics, pp who mentioned this! I'd gladly debate sides with other levelheaded rational ladies here, but not what we currently have as politicians. We might actually get something done! 

AGmomof3

I'm a pretty easy going mom - my LO is my 3rd and I didn't keep my older ones RF past 1. However, since then, my oldest nephew was in a car accident (he was driving) and broke his neck - that more than anything has changed my mind on this issue. My LO is petite for her age, but I'm keeping her RF as long as I can according to my seat's recommendations of height and weight. I keep her RF because the thought of a spinal injury is horrifying.

changingnames

I am very much in favor of extended rear facing until as close to four as possible. DS1 is 98th% for height and weight and was comfortable rf till past 3 1/2. Ds2 has a better seat and should make it till four. If anything ds1 was more comfy rf because now his legs are dangling into space instead of being crisscross cross (which is a more natural way to sit for a lot of kids). Mine have always liked being cozied into that space.
Obviously it is your choice, whether you thi we are all too safe or not. Cars drive much faster these days and though you were never friends with the babies who died in auto accidents (bc they weren't around to befriend you)- they did exist.
Baby's skeletal system goes thru a variety of changes at certain ages that have nothing to do with size (hardening of bones etc). The increased risk of serious spinal injuries and in extreme cases Internal decapitation are plenty real enough for me to deal with the inconvenience of erf. It's a personal choice like everything else. When I had ds1 some people were still choosing to use bottles with BPA and felt that the no bpa bottles were a scam. We all have to just make the best choices that we can. I suggest you do some of your own research and remember that your doctor probably Knows very little about current car seats (just like they dontknow much about breastfeeding and plenty of other issues-they aren't car seat techs and they don't work in ERs) Unless one of his six kids is in one (and even then he may not know much). It always cracks me up when someone says their doctor told them to do it so it must be ok. I have never met a paramedic or EMT who said they FF their kids. Maybe that's just a function of me being around more pro erf people but I also think they have seen the consequences and that has shaped them. Sorry for the iPad formatting