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Attachment Parenting
Public school not so bad!
I am a public school teacher, and it breaks my heart that public schools get such a bad rap. I just want people to know just because a school is labeled as "failing" doesn't mean it is a bad school. Do your research. My school had a huge influx of refugees who could not pass the standardized tests, because of the no child left behind law we were labeled "failing." Then a new program opened up at another school, and many of our new immigrants moved to the closer school, the next year we were no longer a failing school. We didn't change, the population changed, and being around those immigrants wouldn't have hurt your children! In fact it could enrich their lives. Just something to think about.
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Re: Public school not so bad!
I don't think the teachers are bad, but I do think that the system leaves a lot to be desired.
1) each teacher has too many children to deal with
2) teachers have to achieve certain metrics on a test, which may or may not be reflective of a student's understanding of the material
3) there is too much "expectation creep" about what kids are expected to know at what age
4) there's not enough recess/outdoor/recreation time (I'd want a 15 minute break every hour if possible, starting early and continuing through middle school)
5) there is too much overhead crap that makes it hard to be creative and inventive on the fly for students and teachers
6) there are too many "let's not offend group X" issues that prevent open, honest, child-led teaching on things that really matter to them
None of these things are the fault of the teachers directly. Everyone has a hand to blame. (And I'd say parents, as a group as a whole, have the biggest share of blame to hold.)
Saying that you want to homeschool, private school, or unschool because you don't like your public school system is, in my opinion and experience, rarely reflective of the teachers in the classrooms.
Thing is, why should I have to send my kid to a public school with a class size around 30 when there is NO WAY that all those kids can learn in a similar fashion at the same time in the same place. It's just too many kids!
I went to private school and I don't think I had more than 15 students in a class ever. Even my high school topped out around 20. I cannot fathom 30!
I'm not actually committed to homeschooling yet, but it's a strong option. Part of the reason I feel that way is that I live on the west side of Washington state. We have a pretty darn amazing homeschooling setup here, and it allows homeschooling kids to take some of the public school classes. (And there are lots of other readily available resources through local programs for homeschoolers.) That makes it a little more of a mixed approach.
Call me silly, but I really strongly believe that if we could build the physical spaces and hire the teachers so that class sizes were cut in half, we would see all sorts of educational improvements that would ripple out into a number of other socio-economic areas of life.
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This especially.
I am so tired of public school teachers on TB getting all worked up and offended that someone is choosing to homeschool. Some of my closest friends IRL are public school teachers here and they send their kids to private schools or live in a different district.
Our school system is bad. I'm not afraid to say it. I know it's not because the teachers suck, it's just the reality of the situation. There's not enough money to bring about real improvement, programs are being cut, the structure to the days and week is terrible, the buses are ALWAYS late and kids are frequently put on the wrong buses.
They attempted to restructure the schools this year and send different kids to different schools and now siblings are separated. One of my friends has 5 kids at 4 different schools that all release within a few minutes of each other. They don't get enough time to eat lunch. They don't serve enough food for lunch. They eat lunch way to early at a few of the schools. I'm talking 10:25 am and then have nothing for the rest of the day. They don't get enough playtime. They have way to much homework even in the lower levels. If you're spending over 7 hours in school there shouldn't be tons of homework in the evenings.
All of the special needs kids are in one class (per school) and those teachers have very little help. A lot of times they just get substitute aids rather than consistent ones. These are just a FEW of the problems with our school system. I could go on but TB would probably cut me off.
When my brother was in 1st grade he was always in trouble. He wasn't getting enough playtime and was sent to the principals office frequently. The principle would put him, and other troublesome kids in this room that was painted entirely black called "The Black Box" and make him sit for hours as punishment. He's now graduating college pre-law and headed to law school in New York next year. My parents didn't do a lot of things right but they did help end the black box punishment and refuse to put my brother on medicine. He just really couldn't sit still until he went through puberty.
Also, our schools are failing. They are some of the worst in the state. I get where you're coming from OP but our school didn't have a massive influx of refugees that weren't able to pass the standardized tests. The kids are not passing these tests but are being pushed along to the next grade anyhow. If a school is labeled as failing it is irresponsible for a parent not to find out why and consider an alternative. If the school is failing year after year there is a problem. As I said, I am close to many teachers IRL and I respect them immensely. I don't think the main or only problem is often the teachers but that doesn't mean I am going to put my kid in an environment where she will not be set up for success.
I don't think all public schools are bad and I don't think homeschooling is for everyone. I do know that it's what's best for our family.
BIL is a public school teacher and his boys are/will be homeschooled. My 4year old nephew proudly shared the phases of the moon with DH and I the other night. He loves learning and his parents are making sure he is challenged in the things he learns.
Also, it's a very narrow minded view to see children who are homeschooled as lacking in social skills. DH and I run a kids ministry on Wednesday nights and a big chunk of those kids are public schooled and lacking in social skills. Development of proper social skills has a lot more to do with how the parents are raising the child than the school system does.
I can get where you've coming from and I know a handful of people who look at it this way. However, I'm not going to send my child into an unhealthy learning environment just so the schools have a better chance of improving. It's not fair to her and quite frankly, it's not my responsibility to make the school system better. It's my job to do what's best for my kid. I am not going to sacrifice her quality of education on the off chance it may make the school system better.
I will absolutely concede that point. We have great options (DS will be attending French immersion, for free) and fewer crazy NCLB issues (for now... sigh, standardized testing is on the horizon.
I just hope that parents pulling kids to home school them put in the proper effort to preparing them to rejoin traditional schooling at some point if they so choose. I'm sure it's possible to home school and do it well, and I'm sure that not 100% of home schooled kids have that experience. I think it can be hard to not let your own bias influence your teaching, especially in areas like math that people tend to not like. Of course, that's a huge problem with elementary teachers anyway, so going to school is not necessarily the answer to that.
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You know the tests that are used to label a school as "failing" are a joke, right? That they are only showing a miniscule portion of what students can do, which is how well they take tests. AND not only that, but how well a kid does on those tests is directly correlated with their parents' income.
NCLB and high-stakes testing has done so much to eff up public ed in the US. The way the NCLB law was set up, 100% of US schools are going to technically be "failing" by 2014.
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
I know and I understand which is why I listed a plethora of other reasons our school is failing. I'm not a fan of NCLB and I recognize that the people making the rules and regulations have no idea what's actually going on in our rural Iowa school district. Our school system is failing in far more ways than a government regulated test. That was my point.
VERY well said.
However, right now I am dealing with my daughter being told that when there is bad weather and they stay in for recess that she must join the other first grade class and watch a movie. She has asked the teacher many times if they can play games instead or read--every time she is told no. She also is not allowed to keep her water bottle by her desk to drink throughout the day as she pleases. We don't know how to approach these issues with her teacher, who is wonderful. It makes me very upset that this is happening!!
And this. I'm not anti teachers, I'm anti-school lol
The way this thread is going, you would think US public schools are hell on earth. Take a breath, guys.
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
yeah, so we probably shouldn't use those services either.
"ouch" said the nail as it was hit on the noggin.
And here is the underlying reason why our school system is messed up.
While I respect your position, I wonder what benefit my child would gain from hanging out with kids who cannot even pass standardized tests? To whit: If those kids are failing to learn/retain basic skills, what other skills are they failing to acquire and retain? And how is that going to affect my child and my child's learning opportunities and social development? What ever perceived cultural benefit my children would gain, they could surely gain by associating with kids of other cultures who are further advanced in education (and therefore more compatible, intellectually with my children).
Also, public schools are not all created equal. Beverly Hills High School is one of the most coveted public high schools in the country, and I would certainly send my kids there once they reached the right age. But there is not a single public school in Miami that I would subject my kids to. Even the charter schools here are really only great for Jr and Sr High, IMO.
And this attitude is why American schools lag behind almost the entire developed world. No offense, but American public schools are not doing that well. The majority of our nation's population is being force fed a sub-par education that leaves the majority of our graduating High Schoolers unprepared for the rigors of University, or for the business world in general... As evidenced by how our nation slips further and further behind in technological, medical, architectural, automotive etc. innovation and advancement every year.
I think our lack of choices in the public school system is underlying the problem in the public school system.
Why? For a couple different reasons:
1) Competition between schools would absolutely make life harder on some schools, but having choices identifies true wants/needs by the consumer (parents, kids). Right now, we can write a letter, an email, talk to the principal, volunteer, but it's the same as your kid saying "I want chocolate for lunch". They (like you) get to say "no" for whatever reasons.
Honestly, the medical system is a bit like this too. There was an excellent article in Time recently discussing some of the troubles that can be identified with overly expensive health care, and a lot of it comes down to not truly not having competition in the health care system. (Please read the article for that discussion, I'm too tired to try to better paraphrase it and explain it.)
2) Choices allow people to find things that work for them and their children and their family, and those things are likely to be different for different people. Right now, my daughter gets the same education as all the other kids who are geographically near her. Geography is a (nearly*) completely independent variable in how she would get the best education possible. She doesn't learn or relate the same way as the neighborhood kids just because we live in the same neighborhood. (*Yes, there is *some* interdependence. Geographic similarity is highly correlated with socio-economic similarity. But that is at the very basic end of the spectrum of the conversation.)
3) Choices allow to to make a change when you think something needs to be improved but you don't know what it is. Let's say that my daughter isn't doing well in her school. Something is off, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Not anything super bad, not anything to warrant special ed schools. But something not right either. What are my options? Tutoring. That's really about it without going to these other models we're talking about - private school, home school, unschool.
If there were options within the public school system, schools that operated on slightly different models, we could try a change and see if that made any difference. Perhaps doing something another way, something that's working for other kids too, would help her.
4) Choice encourages, pushes even, optimization. Or at the least, choice pushes improvements. Without a driver, without something that will significantly alter it's customer base, public schools have less incentive to be agile in responding to their customer base. The alternatives to public schooling are relatively limited, small, and consume a lot of resources (money and/or time), so they don't generally significantly alter the customer base of the school. This is one of the reasons why charter school legislation is usually so controversial.
Alternatively, I really think that significantly smaller schools would work towards solving some of these problems. But we don't have enough money for the schools we have. There's no way that we could manage to double or triple the number of schools (to cut class sizes to a half or a third of what they now are). Nor is it likely, due to politics alone, that the "uniformity" of schools would be overcome by that sort of thing either.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what I would like to see - lots of choices - is realistic in our culture. But other cultures do this a lot better than we do, and we don't seem to be learning our lessons from it.
You can make the argument, contrary to my points above, that some cultures (some northern european countries) have a very systematic approach to school and there are NO choices for home schooling or private schooling. But they still seem to do a better job. I think some of the reason is cultural (they are smaller countries, for one) but probably not all.
Anyway... that's what my sleep deprived brain was thinking about the choice issue.
I think you mean, "My 4year old nephew proudly shared the phases of the moon with dh and ME the other night".
You know, I wonder if it was sort of a forcing function - you have a whole lot of various age kids in one room, you HAVE to let them do some of their work on their own. And you probably have some of the older ones helping the younger ones.
Class sizes haven't really dropped around here, as far as I know, but they've been too high as long as I've known about them. Spending may have gone up, but what is it being spent on? Overhead? Useless safety measures? Lawyers for stupid things? As you say, it hasn't been providing better service, so something is broken.
I completely agree with this. Also I think a lot of parents have an antiquated idea of what actually goes on in their child's classroom. They just assume that because that is how they were taught, that is what is still happening in classrooms today.
I often see parents saying "well if schools would do this or if schools would do that" and I have to say "we already do all of that, and then some!"
I am a public school teacher and while I don't necessarily think public school is "bad" I don't think kids are getting the best education at public schools. I wouldn't have a problem sending my kids to public school. DH and I both went to public school and we turned out fine. But if we could afford it I would want a better education for them. I don't think it's the teachers. Most of the teachers I know are so dedicated and really work hard. There are so many problems with public school.
1. The administration changes the curriculum WAY too often. They don't know how to leave things alone even when things are working really well.
2. Things like world languages, music, art, etc. are being cut left and right. These subjects are so important in a kid's overall education.
3. Discipline. Teachers have so much more to deal with than just teaching the material.
4. Class size.
They seemed to do it better in the one room school house days because teachers had more power than they do now. Unfortunately, teachers have very little say in what they teach and how they teach it. There are more rules and procedures in place for the teachers than for the kids. It is sad.
Education isn't a commodity though. School choice just ends up screwing over the kids that are harder to educate special needs, behavior problems, etc. etc..
Other countries have an easier time with education because their population is not only more homogeneous, but they also have a lot less systemic poverty than the US. Also, all those tests they give worldwide aren't given to every kid in other countries. The number of special ed, homeless, English language learners in the US is a lot higher than in somewhere like China.
What happens if a family doesn't want to send a kid to their local school, but there aren't any other options in the area? Will charters be required to be open in all neighborhoods/towns/districts? What if both parents work and can't take their kids to a school that's further away? Vouchers and charters haven't been shown to improve educational outcomes, and frankly, I think applying forprofit business strategies to public education isn't going to help anything. If a school doesn't have to take certain kids, then the kids that are hardest to teach get screwed over.
Two major problems with the US education system is that there is vast inequity between poor and rich districts, and a huge number of children in poverty in the public school system which, of course, effects their educational potential. Neither of those problems would be solved by "school choice". Funding needs to be more equally distributed, and schools in highpoverty areas need more outreach "wraparound services", like school psychologists, counselors, after school/preschool programs, etc..
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
But you're not taking the actual inequity of poor districts vs. rich districts into account. You can't look at funding as a whole, but have to break it down almost district-by-district.
This came up from a really quick google search:
"The U.S. Department of Education yesterday released a damning new report documenting that school districts across our country are unevenly distributing their state and local funds, shortchanging schools that serve low-income students. The report reveals for the first time the extent of inequity in our nation?s per-pupil expenditures from state and local sources among the schools within a school district."
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education/news/2011/12/02/10805/the-persistence-of-educational-inequality/
And you're whole "Poverty is down!" stat is still 46 million people. That's a lot of poor people, and not even taking the current distribution of wealth into account.
Bottom line: Poor districts (and kids) are getting screwed.
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
The majority of school districts and kids in this country aren't poverty-stricken.
When public schools have decent funding and are in a decent area, they do well. When a public school district is majority Title I kids, that's when they run into trouble - but not just because it's a "poor" district, but because there are so many other social factors against the kids in that district. A kid's family's income is strongly correlated to how well they'll do in school.
And I think that if more middle-class parents/families buy into public schools, then those schools and districts *will* improve.
We just have to agree to disagree on this one!
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
I've been avoiding this conversation because I have a real moral dilemma about what to do for my children's schooling. I'm a former public school teacher and about to be a professor of teacher education and believe firmly that public education is a cornerstone of democracy.
That said...our schools do have more than their share of problems.
I have to very respectfully but strongly disagree that choice is the solution or really even part of it. A market based system will never work for public education - I'd argue just as it's failing so many in health care! Choice works for those who have the financial, cultural, or political capital to choose. Those who are most likely to be in the worst schools are those with the least ability to choose. Even given the illusion of choice - say in a public voucher scheme - a poor child who depends on public transportation to get to school doesn't have the luxury to school shop. Throw in parents who are working odd hours, alienated by their own school experience or who just don't care - yeah, choice isn't so much a solution there.
I don't argue that all schools should be the same - certainly not. All children have different needs. But we do need equity - and competition isn't the way to get there.
As an aside on the comparison made up thread to health care...very few folks blame doctors for the state of our health care system and in many cases they are well compensated. Teachers (and yes there are shitty teachers for sure but many are not) bear the brunt of the criticism and get little of the reward.
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A few more things...
Keep in mind back in Anne of Green Gables days (heck, even in our parents' days) a pretty sizable number of kids never went to high school. The world has changed.
That fact also explains test scores over the last 50 years - if you have everyone taking a test, the scores will go down vs. just having the top 75% of kids taking the test.
Funding is HUGELY inequitable. The vast majority of public school funds comes from local sources - relatively little comes from the federal government (most of that is Title I funding for low income schools that must be used in certain ways and money for free and reduced lunch - so numbers can be deceptive). A bit more comes from the state. The biggest chunk comes from the district and is based largely on property tax. Under such a system, of course children in poor areas will have shittier schools - there's no tax base. Read Jonathan Kozol as he has hundreds of examples of how this is happening.
Upper-middle class, middle class flight from public schools does exacerbate the problem because the political will to fix the problem is just not going to be there.
The reality is that the problems in our schools are symptomatic of larger social problems. Regardless of how we chose to educate our kids, I'd argue everyone (kids or no) has a stake in making those things right.
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Breastfeeding Counselor with Breastfeeding USA
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