question about Ferber re:night weening

gstore

my sweet little girl is just 6 months and i've decided to follow Ferber's Progressive-Waiting.  (go ahead and let the lashings begin. womp womp. my questions are directed to mommies who are going to be respectful and helpful, and who have experience with Ferber's methods. thank you) 

we were away for 11 nights over the holidays, therefore we experienced a regression in her nighttime sleep patterns.  she grew accustomed to waking about every 3 hours and receiving the breast each time. now that we are settled at home again and experiencing these sleep problems, it is the perfect time to begin our sleep training.  we are on day 2 and have already experienced great improvement we are working on sleep associations (falling asleep on her own), and working on fewer or no nighttime feedings. (note: we have chosen to continue the use of a pacifier).

i have a question that i cannot seem to find the answer to in Ferber's book regarding night weening.  as he recommends, i am aiming to push her night feedings later by 30 minutes each night.  so, if she were to wake-up crying after 4 hours, for example, and if my goal was to make her wait another 30 minutes, would i begin the progressive waiting process at this time and if we reach 30 mins of crying do i then feed her? sounds like a stupid question, but Ferber said somewhere in his book that if you were to just end up feeding/comforting after a bout of crying then that defeats the purpose. by saying this, he must have been addressing the problem of sleep association rather than nighttime hunger.... i think i just answered my own question.... haha.  so, in the case of nighttime hunger, feeding after crying is okay...  i think my confusion came from my belief that my daughter is not actually hungry during the night, but is only waking out of habit. i am focused more on solving her sleep association, but out of compassion i do not want to cut out her night feedings cold turkey.  quite possibly she HAS grown hungry by habit, tho she does not actually NEED the nourishment during the night. so, now i must work on re-scheduling her hunger gradually. and i must put her down AWAKE after each feeding. does this sound correct???

if anybody has any other positive advice or encouragement to offer, i would gladly accept. (anybody with negative comments please keep them to yourself) anyone with experience using a pacifier?  did you replace the pacifier upon each visit? would you recommend keeping it, or doing away with it now? thanks for any help you may have

 

mylittlesunshine

I can't offer any advice about the night time feeding, but as far as the paci goes, I would also ditch it.

We did Ferber with DD1 with great results and started it with DD2 not too long ago and have had great results.

The reason I say ditch the paci is because eventually you will want to ditch it...why not start now when you are already working on self soothing to fall asleep? With DD1 she loved the swaddle. DH and I really wanted to break her of it...so the first night we did Ferber, we also did no swaddle. She surprised us and did great. DD2 loves her paci, but we are trying to not use the paci for sleep.

Good luck! Sounds like you have already seen good results!

lil_jen051708

I'm not sure about Ferber but I read the sleep easy solution which is similar. They say to let the baby fall back asleep through progressive waitin and then do a dream feed or set an alarm and dream feed the baby before he/she starts crying. By feeding them when awake or crying, you are rewarding them for crying and not sticking to the plan of waiting which sends mixed signals to the baby. Sometimes when I cry I get food and other times I don't.

hoping4sticky

I think that night weaning and night waking are different things. You need teach your baby to fall asleep on their own and to put themselves back to sleep, but generally speaking just cutting out nightfeedings and letting them cry does not work (and I'm ok with CIO).

I would try offering a bottle at night  - formula if you aren't against it (my LO hates formula and will only take it if he is really hungry) pumped if you are. I would gradually reduce the number of oz so that your LO has time to up his calories during the day. I also have heard good things about dreamfeeds/sleep easy style if you are really concerned with the night waking/food association.

Sleep training doesn't always need to equal no food, so yes, sometimes crying does result in food - just like during the day.

hoping4sticky

LalaMama81:

hoping4sticky:

I think that night weaning and night waking are different things. You need teach your baby to fall asleep on their own and to put themselves back to sleep, but generally speaking just cutting out nightfeedings and letting them cry does not work (and I'm ok with CIO).

I would try offering a bottle at night  - formula if you aren't against it (my LO hates formula and will only take it if he is really hungry) pumped if you are. I would gradually reduce the number of oz so that your LO has time to up his calories during the day. I also have heard good things about dreamfeeds/sleep easy style if you are really concerned with the night waking/food association.

Sleep training doesn't always need to equal no food, so yes, sometimes crying does result in food - just like during the day.

Why on earth would you suggest making more work in the middle of the night by offering a formula bottle to a BF baby? I don't believe most babies are ready to be completely night weaned at 6 months, just b/c they might "do it" what else are they supposed to do if you've offered them their non-preferred food in a non-preferred container and then you keep decreasing it? It's one thing to cut out a night feeding, but at 6 months I don't think you need to work on cutting them all out. 

I'm not suggesting starving the child, but it is very difficult to decrease the amount of food you give when you are BFing - yes you can try to reduce the number of minutes or feed one side, but it is very inaccurate. I believe it is easier for a child to gradually take less at night and have time to compensate and learn to take those calories during the day. I honestly see no issues with my suggestion. You can do the same thing with expressed milk if it is abhorrent to you to give your BF baby formula. I'm not sure why cutting out a night feeding is better than allowing them to adjust over time to less food? As to whether or not babies are ready to be night weaned at 6 months, well I think it is a moot point as the OP is trying to do it. My DD was BF'd and went 7-7 at 6.5 months, my DS still gets up 1-3x a night at 7, so yes we are working on night weaning.

As to my personal comment about my DS not liking formula, yes I am trying to get him to take formula as my supply is tanking (just like it did last time with my DD at this time) and there is not much else that I can do in addition to my taking fenugreek and pumping. I am personally not opposed to supplementing a BF baby (especially after 6 months of EBF) with formula. I understand some are.

giraffe54

lil_jen051708:

I'm not sure about Ferber but I read the sleep easy solution which is similar. They say to let the baby fall back asleep through progressive waitin and then do a dream feed or set an alarm and dream feed the baby before he/she starts crying. By feeding them when awake or crying, you are rewarding them for crying and not sticking to the plan of waiting which sends mixed signals to the baby. Sometimes when I cry I get food and other times I don't.

 

I ended up doing a combo of sleep easy and fuss-it-out. I'm lucky in that my kid doesn't really cry much, but she will fuss or play up a storm at night (she likes to shriek!). During 4 month sleep regression, I started giving her the paci and experimenting with feeding vs. paci. I quickly realized she could go all night without a feed, but needed to suck. Sleep regression passed... sort of... she was still waking 4-6 times a night for the last few months. Though I was only feeding her 1-3 times a night. When I realized she wasn't actually eating much, I checked with my pedi and then started gradually pulling her off the boob earlier. The book suggests waking just before the baby normally does and feeding them so they don't associate their wake ups with food. When I was sure she was okay without food at night, I just stopped going to her until the early hours of the morning. It's only been a few nights, but last night was the best sleep we've ever had from her. Fingers crossed it sticks.

You know your baby best and what is best for your family. Don't let the guilt trippers make you second guess yourself. My own personal theory is that anyone who has had more than 3 hours of sleep a night at least 2-3 times a week or people whose babies wake 3 times or less a night is someone I will never take sleep advice from because they have no idea how hard it is to be sleep deprived. All babies are different. Some people think they understand what you are going through because they are 'tired' but if they really did understand, they would be just as desperate. Follow your gut!

hoping4sticky

LalaMama81:

hoping4sticky:

LalaMama81:

hoping4sticky:

I think that night weaning and night waking are different things. You need teach your baby to fall asleep on their own and to put themselves back to sleep, but generally speaking just cutting out nightfeedings and letting them cry does not work (and I'm ok with CIO).

I would try offering a bottle at night  - formula if you aren't against it (my LO hates formula and will only take it if he is really hungry) pumped if you are. I would gradually reduce the number of oz so that your LO has time to up his calories during the day. I also have heard good things about dreamfeeds/sleep easy style if you are really concerned with the night waking/food association.

Sleep training doesn't always need to equal no food, so yes, sometimes crying does result in food - just like during the day.

Why on earth would you suggest making more work in the middle of the night by offering a formula bottle to a BF baby? I don't believe most babies are ready to be completely night weaned at 6 months, just b/c they might "do it" what else are they supposed to do if you've offered them their non-preferred food in a non-preferred container and then you keep decreasing it? It's one thing to cut out a night feeding, but at 6 months I don't think you need to work on cutting them all out. 

I'm not suggesting starving the child, but it is very difficult to decrease the amount of food you give when you are BFing - yes you can try to reduce the number of minutes or feed one side, but it is very inaccurate. I believe it is easier for a child to gradually take less at night and have time to compensate and learn to take those calories during the day. I honestly see no issues with my suggestion. You can do the same thing with expressed milk if it is abhorrent to you to give your BF baby formula. I'm not sure why cutting out a night feeding is better than allowing them to adjust over time to less food? As to whether or not babies are ready to be night weaned at 6 months, well I think it is a moot point as the OP is trying to do it. My DD was BF'd and went 7-7 at 6.5 months, my DS still gets up 1-3x a night at 7, so yes we are working on night weaning.

As to my personal comment about my DS not liking formula, yes I am trying to get him to take formula as my supply is tanking (just like it did last time with my DD at this time) and there is not much else that I can do in addition to my taking fenugreek and pumping. I am personally not opposed to supplementing a BF baby (especially after 6 months of EBF) with formula. I understand some are.

I have had to supplement for medical reasons, so I know, it can be neccesary.

I agree, when you BF it is harder to do the gradual thing to cut out a feeding. I guess I'm just a fan of letting the baby make the decision to a point. I only night weaned DD in the last week and she's 16 months. At 6 months, I wouldn't be trying to get down to less than 2 feedings if the baby didn't want it. When I have cut out a feeding, I have never needed a bottle or formula to help me - and not b/c my kids are awesome sleepers or b/c I'm awesome. It just seemed like an extra step to me.  

Fair enough, but if I am still regularly getting up in the middle of the night at 16 months, that would be own personal hell. I really hope I am not doing that.

Your kids are adorable though. Do you have a new baby, or are you just visiting.

KalinaM

Your two "problems" were mine exactly, sleep associations and night time feedings.

I did exactly what you mentioned and extended time between feedings. My little one would wake about 3 times a night but would really only nurse once, she'd latch in the other times but would more or less use me as a pacifier. We would put her down at 8pm and the first night I set my goal feeding time for 1am. She woke around 12:30, we did the progressive waiting until 1, fed her, then she went right back down. She woke again at 6 and i fed her right away, as his book mentions it unlikely the baby will go back to sleep ...surprisingly she did until 8. The next night my goal was to make it to 2am...this time she didn't wake until 3am. On the third night she didn't wake up until 4:30!! For a bf'ing baby I figured 8.5 hours was plenty long to go. For about a week or so she'd go down at 8 and wake sometime between 4:30 and 5, eat, then back to sleep until 8 or 9am. Recently, 2 weeks into the Ferber method, she is sleeping 11 to 12 straight hours!! Yes, I am doing a happy dance!!

I think you are doing the right thing and are close to sleep filled nights!

As for the pacifier, go with your gut. We cut our LO from it cold turkey when we started the sleep training...she went two and a half days without it but started sucking her thumb in the car or in large social situations....so we brought the pacifier back. She no longer needs or wants it to fall asleep, but will take it on long car rides or at big functions when she might not be as comfortable. I know this doesn't really follow the book, but it works for us.

I wish you the best of luck!!