Irish: I know you weren't attacking me and I did not mean to offend anyone with what I said....I think I felt a little on the defense after the question was posed; "Did God mean for me to be agnostic?" It just felt a little like sarcasm and I jumped the gun with posting.
I wasn't trying to preach to the board. It is just what I believe.
I didn't take it that way at all. The reality is that where I'm at is at odds with Christianity. And when someone passionately believes the things that Christians believe, sometimes it rubs me the wrong way because I can't wrap my head around it. And I spent a significant part of my life immersed in religion so on an intellectual level I know it's not personal and that many good, caring people believe and follow the tenets of Christianity. And not all of those people are judging me or trying to make decisions for me.
But my knee jerk response is to be somewhat offended by it.
Does that make sense?
It does make sense. I should not talk about religion. I don't talk about it in real life because growing up it was pushed so hard on me. I was at church every day of the week and I vowed that I would never push on someone else. I think I just feel like I was pushing today and I hate that.
Like I said before...each individual has there own relationship with God or not. Not my business.
Also, with DD I will introduce her to God and we go to church but it is up to her if she wants to continue going when she gets older. I would even suggest she try other churches and study other denominations.
I was raised pretty hard core Catholic, so some of my belief is rooted in my upbringing.
As I have grown older, I distanced myself from the Church but I have never questioned my belief in God. I believe in God because miracles happen, and in my own life I have found examples of what I view to be "acts of godliness" in people I encounter when I least expect it.
Personally, it doesn't matter to me if someone else doesn't believe in God. Thats cool. Heaven and Hell are not a part of my thinking. The Bible for me teaches a lot of good lessons about how to be kind to other people and I actually just enjoy the "stories" in it.
In the end, it doesn't matter if you do believe in Heaven and Hell or you don't. We all die. If it brings comfort and solace to people in their final days to believe they are going to Heaven I think thats amazing. Either way if you believe or don't believe in an afterlife of any sort, you won't know it until you are dead, so does it really matter if you are wrong?
I am more curious to know what makes a person believe. Summing it up with the idea of 'faith' almost seems a cop out. Personal epiphanies hold more water with me.
But I still don't believe.
For you who does not have faith, stating faith may be a cop out. To you, it may just be a word. For someone who believes it is a feeling, a sensation, it is large, it is grand. Faith is like a feeling for me. Knowing there is someone always there for me. Like I have said before, I have experienced too much that cannot be explained. This is something I know.
I don't judge you for not believing. It only saddens me that you have never experienced such unexplained greatness that would have allowed you to see for yourself.
Well, isn't that nice
I feel explained greatness on a daily basis. I don't need something unexplainable to complete me
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
I am more curious to know what makes a person believe. Summing it up with the idea of 'faith' almost seems a cop out. Personal epiphanies hold more water with me.
But I still don't believe.
For you who does not have faith, stating faith may be a cop out. To you, it may just be a word. For someone who believes it is a feeling, a sensation, it is large, it is grand. Faith is like a feeling for me. Knowing there is someone always there for me. Like I have said before, I have experienced too much that cannot be explained. This is something I know.
I don't judge you for not believing. It only saddens me that you have never experienced such unexplained greatness that would have allowed you to see for yourself.
It is something for you to presume to understand what I feel without a belief in a God. That somehow my experience is 'less' or inferior. I could make the argument that since I find these things from within, and that they do not have to come to me from an external source, that my experience of greatness is superior. It is undiluted by a third party.
Of course I would not make that argument for it is not one that can be argued either way. I don't think that God (Pascal's God, lol) would appreciate being put on a greatness Richter Scale.
promised myself I'd retire when I turned gold, and yet here I am
I don't understand why Christians say they see God in all of the good things, but seem to overlook all the bad things.
They see God in children, in sunsets, in sunrises, in the person who just received the news that their cancer is in remission.
What about in the storms? In the person who died from the cancer? The kid born with EB? Starving children? Homeless people living under bridges?
Where is the reflection of God in these things?
In those situations where you see an absence of God, you have to find it. Person who died from cancer may have had the life they always wanted; the child born with EB left a loving imprint on his mother that she would never wish she didn't experience; starving children may have an incredibly loving family; homeless person may have formed a community with the people that surround him that he didn't have with his family.
I would say if you believe in God, you would look into those situations and find evidence of God along with the negativity.
You said: It only saddens me that you have never experienced such unexplained greatness
That suggests to me that you are telling me what I feel. That I have never experienced unexplained greatness.
If faith does not come from an external source (God), and in order to have belief in God, God must therefore exist; how can faith come from within? It must be from God. For without God there can be no faith.
Or am I wrong about that? You can have faith without God?
promised myself I'd retire when I turned gold, and yet here I am
My faith is very, very personal to me and almost impossible to articulate. I keep trying to type something out, but I keep going back and deleting because I just can't explain it. I call myself a Christian because I believe that Jesus is the son of God. But what I consider to be the essence of my faith has a lot to do with the sense of peace, love, and friendship that I feel in regards to God. I don't believe in Heaven and Hell in the biblical sense. I refuse to believe that my Jewish-turned-atheist mother, who was the kindest, most wonderful person I've ever known, is burning in hell. But I do believe in an afterlife. I just accept the fact that I'm not capable of understanding what that afterlife actually is. It's truly not something I think about much when I ponder my faith.
In those situations where you see an absence of God, you have to find it. Person who died from cancer may have had the life they always wanted; the child born with EB left a loving imprint on his mother that she would never wish she didn't experience; starving children may have an incredibly loving family; homeless person may have formed a community with the people that surround him that he didn't have with his family.
I would say if you believe in God, you would look into those situations and find evidence of God along with the negativity.
Yeah, I can't see it this way.
My dad had the life he wanted, until he was shitting the bed and living a life in so much pain that he couldn't even walk. I'm sure homeless people feel so much better about not having a roof over their heads, because hey man, I have a buddy who is enduring this shittastic life with me. I also highly doubt that a loving family makes a child's stomach any fuller feeling.
Yeah, I need to walk away from this conversation.
Well, here is how I explain it. I'm not the eternal optimist, so I don't really see the wonders in suffering. I found it horrific when people told me, "God has a plan!" when I had a miscarriage.
So, I had to pray about it.
God created this world. He made it beautiful and perfect. He gave us free will. Humans being humans created the evil in this world through their choices. So, now our world is broken. It is no longer perfectly beautiful, though there is still of course beauty in it.
I do not believe God punishes us by sending earthquakes and floods or sickness and homelessness. In fact he promised not to do that again way back in the Old Testament. So, those who say that bad things are punishments forgot that part. I just believe those things are part of the world we live in.
God comes in through the Holy Spirit when we figure out how to handle those horrific things. Through prayer he works in people to make it better, to help us grow stronger through our trials. And since we are a world full of humans doing our best it doesn't turn out perfectly. God is there to help guide and comfort us, but he does not control us and he does not control our world.
I'm just saying that Christians are not an oppressed group. People don't get shunned for being Christians. Families don't reject their children because they've become Baptists.
Non-believers do face these things. That's all I'm saying.
I see. So, you are in the pay back business. Fair enough. I will pray for you.
You don't have to be a Christian to know and experience God. IMO.
Yeah, but the Christian belief states that you must accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior and acknowledge that he died on the cross for your sins in order to be accepted into Heaven.
I'm sorry, but you can't tell me that someone would just be born with this knowledge.
lurker butting in...I respectfully disagree. I'll quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church here, as I am Catholic.
847: This affirmation (sidenote of my own...the affirmation in question is "outside the Church there is no salvation.") is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in his actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience-those too may achieve eternal salvation.
I'm just saying that Christians are not an oppressed group. People don't get shunned for being Christians. Families don't reject their children because they've become Baptists.
Non-believers do face these things. That's all I'm saying.
Really Twatley does this group of Christians come off as oppressive and the type to reject their kids for not believing? We are probably some of the most accepting folks you will find in the Christian faith.
The point was none of us intentionally disrespected you or anyone else on here who said they didn't believe in God. I don't know if the same can be said for the non Christians in the last 1/2 of this thread. Mbenit was trying to explain what drives her to her faith the same as you were trying to describe what drove you from yours.
It makes no difference to me whether or not someone believes in God or doesn't. I also don't pray for people who don't believe, or feel sorry for them, or feel they are missing out or wrong. They don't believe. I do. Shake hands and carry on.
It simply makes me feel better, I will never know what the truths or not or if there is even a universal truth to be known. It just gives me comfort and a sense of home when I need it. The church itself I could live without, but again there is a certain comfort to Sunday mass for me. It's also separate from the rest of my life. As far as my kid goes, he says his prayers at bedtime, we don't "teach" him about God yet, but he will go to Catholic school. My thoughts and feelings about God have evolved all over the map over the course of my life and I am sure they will continue to. I do not take the bible literally. It is a book written by men to teach and control the masses. It is however a fantastic book, and yes I have read it in it's entirety.
Nothing has yet. Most things I see actually reinforce my belief that there is no sentient "God" as many people would claim there is (and certainly no "grand plan." Wha???). And I feel no lack of goodness or love or meaning in my life because of it.
Never been one. Mom tried to make me one & I've even been confirmed in the Catholic Church. I just always felt conflicted with it. I'm Agnostic so I'm not a complete non-believer in spirituality.
I just have a problem with thinking that something like that can dictate my life. I can't get behind an imaginary being to make good choices in life. I can make them on my own. I mean, sh!t, we have enough things in our lives that judge us and make us make the right choices. Than we gotta worry about some guy we don't even know exists? I just know that making the right choice and being a good person always feels better than not so I continue with the good feeling.
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
I'm just saying that Christians are not an oppressed group. People don't get shunned for being Christians. Families don't reject their children because they've become Baptists.
Non-believers do face these things. That's all I'm saying.
Really Twatley does this group of Christians come off as oppressive and the type to reject their kids for not believing? We are probably some of the most accepting folks you will find in the Christian faith.
The point was none of us intentionally disrespected you or anyone else on here who said they didn't believe in God. I don't know if the same can be said for the non Christians in the last 1/2 of this thread. Mbenit was trying to explain what drives her to her faith the same as you were trying to describe what drove you from yours.
I wasn't speaking about the group of Christians on the bump, I was speaking about Christians as a group. You guys are very accepting and I'm grateful for that. Most of you are open minded and respectful.
I apologize if I upset or disrespected anyone because I was just being playful. I love and respect you all.
Thanks. Sorry sometimes it gets old being lumped in with the crazies just because a portion of it (unfortunatly far too large) gives it a bad name.
I do get where you and a lot of the ladies on here who are agnostics or athesists are coming from. I have watched friends struggle with these same questions for years and unfortunatly there are no easy answers on either side of the debate. I wish we (as a society) could have more honest and open conversations about what drives us to and from our religions vs. throwing down the judgements. I appreciated you keeping it civil for so long through out this discussion. I love your playfulness and generally appreciate it today it just pushed the wrong button. Creepy e-hugs coming your way since you are still one of my favorites here in large part because of that very playfulness.
A woman's life is nine parts mess to one part magic, you'll learn that soon enough...and the parts that look like magic turn out to be the messiest of all.
Re: what makes you believe in God?
It does make sense. I should not talk about religion. I don't talk about it in real life because growing up it was pushed so hard on me. I was at church every day of the week and I vowed that I would never push on someone else. I think I just feel like I was pushing today and I hate that.
Like I said before...each individual has there own relationship with God or not. Not my business.
Also, with DD I will introduce her to God and we go to church but it is up to her if she wants to continue going when she gets older. I would even suggest she try other churches and study other denominations.
I was raised pretty hard core Catholic, so some of my belief is rooted in my upbringing.
As I have grown older, I distanced myself from the Church but I have never questioned my belief in God. I believe in God because miracles happen, and in my own life I have found examples of what I view to be "acts of godliness" in people I encounter when I least expect it.
Personally, it doesn't matter to me if someone else doesn't believe in God. Thats cool. Heaven and Hell are not a part of my thinking. The Bible for me teaches a lot of good lessons about how to be kind to other people and I actually just enjoy the "stories" in it.
In the end, it doesn't matter if you do believe in Heaven and Hell or you don't. We all die. If it brings comfort and solace to people in their final days to believe they are going to Heaven I think thats amazing. Either way if you believe or don't believe in an afterlife of any sort, you won't know it until you are dead, so does it really matter if you are wrong?
opiates
of the masses
Well, isn't that nice
I feel explained greatness on a daily basis. I don't need something unexplainable to complete me
It is something for you to presume to understand what I feel without a belief in a God. That somehow my experience is 'less' or inferior. I could make the argument that since I find these things from within, and that they do not have to come to me from an external source, that my experience of greatness is superior. It is undiluted by a third party.
Of course I would not make that argument for it is not one that can be argued either way. I don't think that God (Pascal's God, lol) would appreciate being put on a greatness Richter Scale.
In those situations where you see an absence of God, you have to find it. Person who died from cancer may have had the life they always wanted; the child born with EB left a loving imprint on his mother that she would never wish she didn't experience; starving children may have an incredibly loving family; homeless person may have formed a community with the people that surround him that he didn't have with his family.
I would say if you believe in God, you would look into those situations and find evidence of God along with the negativity.
Um I see satan in children... well sometimes anyway.
When my brother died from cancer I could only imagine God needed a warrior angel, sorta figured for the end of time or sumshit whenever that will be.
You said: It only saddens me that you have never experienced such unexplained greatness
That suggests to me that you are telling me what I feel. That I have never experienced unexplained greatness.
If faith does not come from an external source (God), and in order to have belief in God, God must therefore exist; how can faith come from within? It must be from God. For without God there can be no faith.
Or am I wrong about that? You can have faith without God?
This is an interesting thread.
My faith is very, very personal to me and almost impossible to articulate. I keep trying to type something out, but I keep going back and deleting because I just can't explain it. I call myself a Christian because I believe that Jesus is the son of God. But what I consider to be the essence of my faith has a lot to do with the sense of peace, love, and friendship that I feel in regards to God. I don't believe in Heaven and Hell in the biblical sense. I refuse to believe that my Jewish-turned-atheist mother, who was the kindest, most wonderful person I've ever known, is burning in hell. But I do believe in an afterlife. I just accept the fact that I'm not capable of understanding what that afterlife actually is. It's truly not something I think about much when I ponder my faith.
I'm aware that my ramblings make no sense.
Well, here is how I explain it. I'm not the eternal optimist, so I don't really see the wonders in suffering. I found it horrific when people told me, "God has a plan!" when I had a miscarriage.
So, I had to pray about it.
God created this world. He made it beautiful and perfect. He gave us free will. Humans being humans created the evil in this world through their choices. So, now our world is broken. It is no longer perfectly beautiful, though there is still of course beauty in it.
I do not believe God punishes us by sending earthquakes and floods or sickness and homelessness. In fact he promised not to do that again way back in the Old Testament. So, those who say that bad things are punishments forgot that part. I just believe those things are part of the world we live in.
God comes in through the Holy Spirit when we figure out how to handle those horrific things. Through prayer he works in people to make it better, to help us grow stronger through our trials. And since we are a world full of humans doing our best it doesn't turn out perfectly. God is there to help guide and comfort us, but he does not control us and he does not control our world.
That's my belief in a nutshell.
Oh mbenit,
you are smug in a holier than thou sort of way
Makes you think people ask a question just to put down the person who answers, doesn't it?
It started out as a really good thread.
Yeah that got ugly fast.
I see. So, you are in the pay back business. Fair enough. I will pray for you.
lurker butting in...I respectfully disagree. I'll quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church here, as I am Catholic.
847: This affirmation (sidenote of my own...the affirmation in question is "outside the Church there is no salvation.") is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in his actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience-those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Really Twatley does this group of Christians come off as oppressive and the type to reject their kids for not believing? We are probably some of the most accepting folks you will find in the Christian faith.
The point was none of us intentionally disrespected you or anyone else on here who said they didn't believe in God. I don't know if the same can be said for the non Christians in the last 1/2 of this thread. Mbenit was trying to explain what drives her to her faith the same as you were trying to describe what drove you from yours.
Never been one. Mom tried to make me one & I've even been confirmed in the Catholic Church. I just always felt conflicted with it. I'm Agnostic so I'm not a complete non-believer in spirituality.
I just have a problem with thinking that something like that can dictate my life. I can't get behind an imaginary being to make good choices in life. I can make them on my own. I mean, sh!t, we have enough things in our lives that judge us and make us make the right choices. Than we gotta worry about some guy we don't even know exists? I just know that making the right choice and being a good person always feels better than not so I continue with the good feeling.
Thanks. Sorry sometimes it gets old being lumped in with the crazies just because a portion of it (unfortunatly far too large) gives it a bad name.
I do get where you and a lot of the ladies on here who are agnostics or athesists are coming from. I have watched friends struggle with these same questions for years and unfortunatly there are no easy answers on either side of the debate. I wish we (as a society) could have more honest and open conversations about what drives us to and from our religions vs. throwing down the judgements. I appreciated you keeping it civil for so long through out this discussion. I love your playfulness and generally appreciate it today it just pushed the wrong button. Creepy e-hugs coming your way since you are still one of my favorites here in large part because of that very playfulness.