-auntie-

birdie_1010

In a post below you said this:

One common Asperger trait is the inability to retell a remote event. Given issues with expressive language, theory of mind and central coherence many with AS, who seem quite intelligent otherwise, are unable to share what happened because they can't effectively process or reconstitute it for others. 

My son is struggling at school during their "writer's workshop" time. During that time, they are supposed to write a story about an event that actually happened to them. He often times cannot get started because a) he can't come up with a topic; or b) he doesn't have all the details of his story perfected in his mind. 

We have started keeping a little notebook of topics for him to write about during writer's workshop. We just started this week, so we haven't had a chance to see if this is working yet. 

In the meantime, I would like to do so more research on the information you provided above.  Do you have any good links to information on this topic?  Or can you tell me more about building those skills in kids with AS?

Thanks!

 

birdie_1010

-auntie-:

THANK YOU!! This is super helpful.

Asperger Writing Workshop 101

Writing for people with AS (and PDD-Nos and HFA) can be a challenge. Their unique perfect storm of impairments, quirks and processing differences can really under mine their efforts. There are so many rabbit holes into which a person with ASD can fall between getting the assignment and completion- so many.

1. Executive function deficits around organization can make it really hard for a writer to organize their thoughts. Just as a kid with a messy room doesn't quite know where to start, a kid with a messy assignment might not know where to start either.

Which story to tell? From whose perspective? In what order to I tell it?

I have been talking to his teacher about providing a graphic organizer of some sort to help him with his writing.  Right now, I am trying to determine what higher level thinking goal there is during writer's workshop. I feel like once we can determine what that goal is, we could perhaps provide him with a modified way of completing the task.  For instance, if the goal is to teach the students to have a story with a beginning, middle and end, he would definitely benefit from having that visually laid out from him on the paper.  If the goal is to introduce a character, a setting, and a detailed account of what happened in that moment, I would suggest something entirely different. 

2. Central coherence is basically the ability to see the forest for the trees. Team AS doesn't always have this. Often a writer with AS will go through a narrative weighing all parts equally. This often shows up in book reports where a student may write a single sentense about the entire story line or main character and an entire paragraph about some minor detail. Like the kid who tries to tell what Harry Potter is about and gives him a single line while going on and on about wand construction/matching or the rules of Quidditch.

Ahh, this sounds all too familiar. When B is having trouble getting started with a topic, he has often said that he doesn't have the whole story perfect in his head yet, so he can't start writing.  He gets so caught up in the details that he can't move forward.  This is again why I am proposing a graphic modification for his writing, so he has specific thoughts to write down.  Once he gets started, he is usually OK.    

3. Theory of mind. This is the ability to not only know that other people have their own interests, thoughts and experiences that are different than his, but also be able to make a decent guess at what they might be. This is true empathy- to be able to "feel" what another might without having the experience.

For the writer with AS, not being able to appreciate what others bring to their work in terms of background makes for some, um, interesting prose. This can go either way. Sometimes the student assumes the teacher/reader knows that he knows about the subject and leave glaring gaps in the piece. Other times the writer will bog the reader down with factoids, especially if they are writing about a topic dear to them.

Oh yeah! We are working on this all.the.time.  When we ask him, "well how do you think ____ felt when that happened?" He gives us the most ridiculous looks, like we are all sorts of crazy for evening thinking about caring that someone else might have felt something in that moment.  Also of interest... As I am sitting here thinking about his, I don't know that I have ever seen him write a fictional piece that had an actual storyline for a character. 

LOL, I endured an exercise in this yesterday. I have a family friend who is applying for a NASA internship to fill a time gap between completing his undergraduate degree and starting a PhD program. He had to submit a statement paper which he's not done before. Mom and dad tried to offer suggestions, but you know 21 and all-knowing, it wasn't well received. A compromise was reached- DH (a scientist) would read it for content/conventions and I would buff it for style. It was hard- he was all over the place. In some paragraphs he was insultingly detailed as if the reader- a PhD to be sure, was clueless and then in the next he omitted really pertinent information his reader needed to make sense of what he was saying. Like mentioning the name of lab where he worked but not the professor who leads the research. Duh. He's a great kid, but kinda, sorta a little too like my son.

LOL, this cracks me up!

4. Other go-withs can interfere with writing. An expressive language delay might make finding words difficult. A memory glitch or processing delay may make it hard to revisit an event mentally and make sense of it on paper. Sometimes making sense of an event or activity takes days; these kids can struggle if asked to write about something they did earlier that day. ADHD can bring attentional and organization issues to the task. Low tone and dysgraphia can make the physical production of written work uncomfortable or even painful.

B has had IQ testing done at 5 years, 1 month and 6 years, 11 months. The results were almost identical, so we feel pretty confident in the scoring.  He has a 3 standard deviation spread between his his vocabulary, receptive vocabulary, matrix reasoning and block design scores and his processing speed quotient.  I can't help but think that this is impending his ability to put his thoughts on paper in many ways.

He also has sensory issues that can really derail his focus. During his goal setting conference earlier this week, his teacher was reviewing his counting testing they had done. The goal by the end of 1st grade is to be able to count forward and backward to 120, which he is already meeting. However, he got mixed up when he got to 111.  The teacher had to "stop and refocus him" so he could reach 120.  B said, "Oh yeah, I remember that day, there were so many people talking in here that I lost track of my numbers I was counting." I would imagine the same sort of thing could be in play during writing time.       

5. Processing differences. My kid is wired differently. A Mac in a PC world, as it were. He does not think about things in the way "regular" people do. He might be more apt to write if given more leeway in the topic- why does it have to be something he actually did, for instance. Why not something he'd like to do?

This is a good point.  Maybe once I learn what the higher level thinking goal is for this activity, I will pose this as an option for him.

Or it might make sense to make the focus narrower. DS often does pretty well responding to a narrow prompt. In elementary this might take the form of the teacher reading a story- fact or fiction- and asking a detailed question. Like the teacher reads "Hatchet" and asks the children to write about what sort of things would be helpful to have on hand and why.

It is interesting, he actually writes really well when given a sentence to complete. At conferences, they had a classroom book outside of the classroom where each student had made a page with a given topic. When I was looking through the book, his writing seemed to look pretty good compared to his classmates.

6. Many higher functioning kids, especially those who were academic stars who were reading and doing math at the start of kindie take their reputations as "good student" very seriously. It can be how they and their family define them. As in he's lousy at sports and most of the kids think he's weird, but he's so much smarter than they are. By late 2nd grade the slow starters might have the academics "click" for them and begin to challenge him. This can cause an almost OCD-like attention to performance in the classroom. Especially if it will be shared. This perfectionism can lead to anxiety and inertia around assignments.

Oh, the perfectionism is already there. He often times won't show us a skill until he feels it is at par. In the past, we would think that he wasn't able to do the skill at all and then, bam, one day he would be doing it at 100%. Eventually I figured out that he had been able to do it for quite a while, but just wasn't showing us.   

7. What can help?

The note book of topics is a great idea. Talking with him about what he plans to write is still useful for DS; he's writing an essay about "last Child in the Woods" as I write this. I'm nervous but we talked about the angles taken in the book.

We brainstormed some ideas this morning for him to put in his book. I really hope it will help!

If he finds the production of written work painful or distracting ask for him to be assessed for adaptive technology. An Alphasmart can make the handwriting piece go away so he can focus on the thoughts on paper.

 https://www.neo-direct.com/

If organization is an issue, a rubric for all assignments could be offered. This was always a part of DS's IEPs though graduation. Any major project or writing assignemnt came with the grading rubric so he knew precisely on what he would be graded.

This is my biggest goal for our team right now! I need to understand what they are being graded on, so we can work to implement the RIGHT supports for him from the beginning. Almost like a checklist for him to make sure he is able to do the assignment as expected.

If he needs more support than that, stories can be scaffolded by a para or resource teacher working with him. Inspiration software can also help with organization in writing.

https://www.inspiration.com/Kidspiration

I always aim to have the least amount of para support as possible.I fear that he will start relying on it, if we offer too much. I haven't taken a good look at the website yet. I am at work and don't want to get busted listening to the audio!

 Thanks so much, auntie. 

 

 

 

birdie_1010

-auntie-:

If you google this, you may find some yourself. Ds had some, early on, that looked almost like thought bubbles and trees where he filled in a topic, added ideas and then flashed those out.

Already on it! I love google sometimes!

Oh yeah! I remember once telling DS that doing something would "make mama happy". He was about four, so we're talking pre-dx. He looked at me like I was a crazy woman and said sincerely "why would I care if you're happy?" I mean, this is a kid who is devoted to his mother, who tells me every time I drop him at school that he loves me and he just didn't get it.

Does that ever get better? I swear, I am that kid's world, but you couldn't care less about how things might impact me. Sometimes I still forget this is a factor and will say something like, "That made mom really scared when you did that." Blank stares ensue.... 

For DS vocabulary and block design are fairly strong, processing speed is the killer. He's an OK writer. It's pretty typical spread of kids with AS and I know a number of people with AS who are amazing writers. Check out John Elder Robison, Temple Grandin or Jerry Newport- all writers on spectrum. Robison's blog is fabulous.

https://www.johnrobison.com/   

He is the author of Look me in the Eyes, correct? I love his writing and his blog!

This sounds like garden variety ADHD behavior to me. Responding to an external distraction. Sensory is when something is going on in a class that derails him that might not be evident to others- the tag on a shirt picking, the whistle of another student's hearing aid, the odor of food coming from the cafeteria, other kids singing off-key. 

Ugh. The teacher clarified that the classroom was not overly noisy at the moment, just quiet talking while kids were doing their testing.  However, I am scared that ADHD might be in the works for us. B is often unable to stay on task, is easily distracted, doesn't seem to be listening when talked to, can't stay seated, has boundless and is WILDLY impulsive. It is so tough to know whether these are functions of his AS and sensory issues or if there is ADHD in play as well. I have his 7 year well check next week and am planning to talk to his Ped about her thoughts on testing for ADHD for him. I have two kids with autism, but for whatever reason, ADHD scares the heck out of me. Maybe it is the medicating, I don't know.     

I hear you. I'd rather my child got support from a highly qualified teacher than a para. Plus, they can become stigmatizing.

 B is already aware and really hates anything that separates him from his peers. The use of anything (social stories, visual cues, lap pads, etc.) that might make him look different from his peers, he completely resists> We haven't officially told him about his diagnosis yet, we just talk lots (and lots and lots and lots) about how everyone is different and we all have different strengths and things we need to work harder on. I know he is probably to the point where we need to tell him, but I just haven't found the perfect way to do it, so I keep putting it off.  Bad mom. 

 

birdie_1010

It can improve with rote instruction. It's one of the reasons I Michelle Garcia Winner, because she teachers how a person words and actions inpact what others think and how they feel. People who lack ToM don't intuit this piece, which leaves them vulnerable to failed relationships.

Inserting yourself into the consequence is probably ineffective right now if he hasn't had good Social Behavior training. It would be better to focus on his personal consequence- getting lost, falling in with bad people and never seeing you again than you being upset not to see him again.

B has been in different private therapy social skills groups.  They have been really effective in helping him to learn social rules. He is getting there, it just doesn't always come with out help. I am working through my friend's copy of, You are a Social Detective, right now. 

The classroom wouldn't have to be "noisy"; he could be equally distracted by someone walking by on the sidewalk 50 yards away. With ASD there is always an overlap of attentional issues. This could be a function of ADHD or a function of anxiety. Or it could be both. Sometimes the distraction comes from within- DS could and would live in his head at this age where he would revisit movies or IRL trips to train museums and effectively tune out real life. For DS, an SSRI helped him get unstuck around compulsive and intrusive thoughts around special interests and what if...? thinking. 

This is my son too. He is a little builder, so he is constantly going back and asking questions like, "Remember when we were at_____, I wonder what kind of support structure was used to make that building so sturdy." This often times comes out during the middle of another conversation we are trying to have. It is really difficult to keep him on track during conversation, but I, perhaps falsely, assumed that this was more do to the AS. 

I didn't see ADHD in my son early on. It was always there, running in the background, but I was able to expain most of it away as a AS. It's a funny thing, when you're looking at dysfuctional behavior, it can be hard to parse out the antecedent for it. DS was sinitially dx'd by both his dev pedi and his psychologist as AS with ADHD. Part of the ADHD was based on a lot of impulsive and off the wall out of seat behavior. A year later we realized he was also dyslexic and enrolled him in a theraputic LD school that also served kids with ADHD. Once they started to repair the dyslexia, the really off behavior ascribed to AS and ADHD faded. I mean, just went away without any real behavior plan.

This is where I am stuck. What is AS? What goes outside of his AS diagnosis? I guess this is why we need specialists...

The ADHD piece, which for DS was class clown impulsivity and executive function became way more obvious by 4th grade when peers reach a new level of self rugulation and sophistication. By middle school, 90% of his IEP was support and services for ADHD.

See, I am becoming more and more aware of the issues this year. He seems to be liked by some kids enough that they will play with him, but I don't know how long that is going to last. His impulsivity is ridiculous, and the biggest concern we have had in both kindie and so far in 1st grade. He touches and grabs and blurts out and runs. I know his peers are already starting to notice the differences. I worry what that will look like in a year, or two.  

Medicating? Meh. DS once said his meds help him be who he is instead of some jerk. They helped him access the instruction that helped him be his best self. We didn't make the decision until he'd had a year of CBT and we had totally tricked out his classroom. YMMV, but for us meds are an important part of the tx plan.

That is good to hear. B is starting to get so frustrated when his impulses take over. He has even told us, I know I shouldn't _______, but I can't stop my body! He gets really anxious and starts pacing around when this happens. It is good he is starting to recognize it, but you can just see the torture he is going through in those moments.  

In a way, the desire to be like eveyone else can be used to your benefit. It's the kid who doesn't care who is harder to manage in terms of behaviors. 

You may want to rethink sharing his dx. At some point it becomes impossible to advocate for a kid who doesn't know his dx. Most districts start to include kids in their IEP meetings around middle school; it's legally required by the time they start his transition IEPs the year in which he'll turn 16. It can be hard to do the big reveal if he gets to about 10-12 because kids are hardwired for conformity at that age and the news can sometimes trigger denial and depression.

James Coplan suggests it's like adoption- you should tell a kid early on so they have ownership of the information and can understand themselves better. You want to do this earlier for a lot of reasons. Holding back sends a powerful message that it isn't something with which you are comfortable- that it is a shameful thing.

And you want him to hear it from you. Two people can keep this secret if one is you and the other is dead. He could have a school professional assume he knows or a cousin overhear and drop the bomb in a moment of anger or frustration. Some of the saddest emails I get are from adults who were dx'd as young kids but whose parents never shared. Typically they have had a hard time with relationships and employment and discover the reason when clearing out papers at their late parents' home.

There is no perfect way to tell a kid he has autism. If you're going down the oft used trail "Of everyone has their own unique brand of strengths and weaknesses", you can always add the kicker that his kind has a name. A lot of people like to use this workbook to help a child better understand their own Aspergers-

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1885477597/ref=noism/oasisonlinasp07

We have always planned to tell him at some point. We just haven't figured out the right time or way to do it. I have been trying to prime him by talking about differences when they come up. It was funny, a while back the episode of Arthur that depicts the child with Asperger's aired. We were watching it, and I asked B if he thought he knew anyone with Asperger's (he does, other than himself) and he was very adamant that he did not. I definitely want him to hear it from us and we definitely want to tell him on a positive note, so I know sooner is better than later. 

I took a quick look at the workbook and that looks AWESOME! Thanks for passing that along, I think I am going to order it off of Amazon tonight. 

 

birdie_1010

Thanks for all your help, auntie.

I already ordered that workbook off of Amazon! Now comes the fun of talking to the Ped about her thoughts on ADHD.  Bleh.