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Natural Birth
ateal2490
member
I never knew that someone could be so against NB
ateal2490
member
I stumbled across this woman's website and am completely shocked at the level of hatred she seems to have for anyone and everyone who participates in anything concerning NB. She discredits midwives, doulas, Ina May, pregnant women who want a NB, birthing centers, water-births, VBAC, refusal or delayed vaccination, refusal of internals, placenta encapsulation, birth plans, and attempted breech delivery (even if it poses no threat to mother or baby).
She calls epidurals "empowering" and thinks anyone who wants a NB is just some crazed hippie feminist who doesn't care whether their child lives or dies.
Wtf?
https://skepticalob.blogspot.com/
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Re: I never knew that someone could be so against NB
I noticed her over use of the word narcissist. My guess is all you need to know about her is in that knowledge. SHE is a narcissist. We use that word a lot in my house, but only because my 16 year old likes the story of Narcisis.
A lot of doctors are against NB. I think they end up feeling like a monkey who flips a switch. I'm also guessing SHE has never experienced it. That's the issue with my OB. She had an epidural with both kids the second she felt pain and shes all for speeding things along once mom is sick of being pregnant.
I am kind of a neohippie feminist. What's wrong with that? It doesn't mean I care whether or not my child lives or dies. It means I believe I have the right to do what God (I'm also a Christian) made me to do!
There are people on the extremes of everything- I guess nothing really shocks me anymore.
I just saw my friend this weekend who is an L&D nurse, who I already know has a very low opinion of NB- therefore I don't even bring up my plans for birth with her. Someone else who was there though asked if I had a birth plan, and the nurse friend just sighed and started going on about all the crazies that come to her hospital with all their "methods" and try to be "macho." I just kind of ignore her- I'm really not going to say much until I get through my NB successfully!
Wow, this is a really disheartening blog, especially coming from a woman. All she seems to care about is money, money, money; and NB and home births are just taking money out of the mainstream medical system and therefore out of her pocket.
I agree with a PP, she is the narcissist in question. If I ended up with someone like her as my OB, I'd be hightailing it in the opposite direction! Doctors like her are exactly the reason why I'm sticking with a GP to deliver my baby.
Yikes.
I just glanced over her site, that woman is a NUTJOB!
One of her posts, she claims attachment parenting causes autism. One of her reasons "no one has ever proven attachment parenting doesn't cause autism". HUGE fallacy!
On another, she says giving birth without drugs is like anorexia. Because I don't want my baby to be flooded with medicines at birth, and don't want the risks involved with an epidural, I have a mental illness?
"Empowering" epidurals? I'm sure my sister felt empowered when she fell on the floor in the middle of the hospital hallway and peed all over herself after she gave birth; oh wait, I think she described it as helpless and embarrassed! I'm sure my friend who still has back-pain from an epidural over a year ago feels empowered.
And this lady has a license to practice medicine?!
Ah, ok, at least she's not THAT crazy. (Though I still think she's crazy.) I'll admit, I didn't actually READ any of the stuff she wrote, I just glanced for a few seconds over a few posts I thought had eye-catching titles.
Oh man I love people (especially women) who use "feminist" as some kind of put down.
And need I remind her that pain meds in labor were the feminist thing to do when they became available. But anyway.
Wow... I don't think I've ever been more insulted in my entire life.
I'd like to add that I fail to see how an epidural could be 'empowering', but that's just me...
I think it can be for women who are having a difficult labor or who feel they've just hit the end of what they can do. I've talked to several women who said it was like getting a burst of energy. To each their own. I don't judge women for getting them (I migh roll my eyes at the ones who want them at the first contraction). I do ask that they don't judge me for NOT getting one, or accuse me of trying to be some kind of martyr.
I actually used to subscribe to the blog b/c I liked reading things from the "other side," and knowing what I might have to prepare for and answer to if someone asked, and at very first glance thought that's what it was...but then I found (duh!) a lot of it to be actually fear mongering and harmful to my getting into a positive mindset for my birth, and I had to stop. She is crazy, for sure.
Disgusting. Exactly why so many women feel they cannot trust their OBs.
and ITA with whoever said that she's the narcissist.
Of course getting an epidural can be empowering. So can a c/s. If a woman makes a choice freely and is happy with her choice, why is that not empowering just because her choice was not natural childbirth?
I got a chuckle out of that as well.
This completely! The specific choice that is made matters less than the fact that it was made freely, with all of the necessary information, and is a choice that the woman is confident in making. Natural childbirth can be incredibly empowering, it can also be incredibly traumatic if it is something that the woman is unprepared for, and doesn't desire. I am a huge proponent of unmedicated (and thus obviously vaginal) childbirth. But it isn't something I'm interested in forcing on others because it's "empowering" any more than I'm interested in having interventions forced on me because they're available.
Reading that blog makes me overwhelmingly sad. Its depressing to read so much negative information and to see her being praised for it. Dr. Tuteur seems like a bitter old woman. I know there are plenty of providers out there that are opposed to NB but I have not seen anyone else express such hatred.... wow.
Dr. Amy is crazy cakes
/gavel
Dr. Amy's c-section rate when she was practicing was around 15%, I think. Maybe even lower. She is not against natural birth. She's simply against a certain kind of natural birth advocate.
And let's admit it, there are some crazies out there. For the most part, they don't hang out here on this board -- or when they do show up, they're pretty roundly shot down. (Like the threads we had a few months back where some posters said that women who have elective inductions are bad mothers.) Still, they're out there, on other message boards and in the blogosphere, and that's a lot of what Dr. Amy is responding to.
I think she takes it too far, e.g. I agree with her that there are some terrible, terrible homebirth midwives out there who have NO business delivering pizza, nevermind babies, but I don't agree that that means that ALL homebirth is inherently unsafe.
But I don't think she's crazy, and I would go so far as to say that anyone interested in natural birth should read her blog thoroughly. (Including the comments, which usually have some great discussions from people with lots of different viewpoints.) NOT while pregnant, because as StefandTodd said, it's not conducive to a positive mindset on birth... but before or between pregnancies, for sure, because there's lots of important information that you won't find if you just immerse yourself in happy natural birth friendly literature and blogs.
Mommy to DD1 (June 2007), DS (January 2010), DD2 (July 2012), and The Next One (EDD 3/31/2015)
That post was the final straw for me.
As someone who has had both a NB and an eating disorder, I can promise you that they are not one in the same. Actually, its quite the contrary.
Anorexia-
A struggle for the control and "discipline" neccessary to deny one's self the most basic human need (food) in hopes to achieve something deadly and destructive.
May be linked to the pressure to reach a level of physical flawlessness that is in fact impossible to achieve.
May stem from an overwhelming sense that one is unable to control many aspects of their own lives (ex: "I was unable to control my unhappy childhood, but only I am able to control my weight and caloric intake.)
Results in a complete loss of power as the disorder completely consumes the individual's mind.
Natural Birth:
The decision to seize control in order to achieve something that is both beautiful and empowering.
Has proven to the world that in birth, nothing is impossible.
Allows women to birth their children without dictation, without protocol,and allows them to break free from the "one-size fits all" treatment in the delivery room.
Allows women to experience the empowerment that has been guiding women through labor since the beginning of time.
I have yet to find the similarity.
And hasn't since '03.
Seems kind of crazy to me that 8 years later, she's still spreading this inaccurate, biased information. She's also created a website called "hurt by homebirth." She uses scare tactics, falsified information, one-sided stories,exaggerated statistics, and morbid, morbid accusations to scar the image of natural birth.
Oh, did I forget to mention her ambitious use of the term DEAD BABY? Its in virtually every post she's written. Sometimes, when she's on a serious role, she also throws "the mother killed her baby by doing/not doing ____. Its her fault her baby is dead).
Please, explain to me how a sane person could even THINK to present this to an expectant mother:
Further, please analyze the following quotes from the SOB and tell me exactly where I can find even a fragment of Dr. Amy's alleged sanity. She must be really good at hiding it, because she has me fully convinced that she is BSC..
From her blog:
"There is nothing powerful about giving birth, but there is something unspeakably pathetic about believing that there is."
"Are you still a birth goddess if the baby is born dead? ""A simple question for waterbirth advocates:
Would you completely immerse your head (eyes open, of course) in the fecally contaminated bloody water of a birth pool in the aftermath of a birth?
I have a second question:
If you wouldn't for a moment contemplate immersing your head in a pool of water with feces floating in it, why do you think it is a good idea to force your baby to do so? "
"Unlike the God of the Old Testament, "Birth" apparently does want and need human sacrifice"
"It turns out that sacrificing your baby on the altar of "Birth" isn't the highest form of devotion. That honor is reserved for deliberately placing your nextchild on the same altar and trusting that the goddess who killed your last baby won't kill this one, too. "
I'll wait.
Again, she's not trying to scar the image of natural birth. Just call out the natural-birth crazies.
On the "Hurt by Homebirth" site, I think one of her most valuable contributions to the discourse is to point out that there are some insanely unqualified midwives practicing out there, and hurting moms and babies. It's a great counterbalance to stuff like "Business of Being Born," which gives the impression that all midwives are awesome, all OBs are epi-pushers, and out-of-hospital birth is always preferable to hospital birth.
For the remainder of your points, can you provide links? Context is really important. I don't have time to look all of them up, but I can guess at the context of some...
I'm guessing that this was in a post railing against women who refuse all medical interventions, even when CLEARLY medically indicated. There are situations where despite the best efforts of everyone involved, a c-section is very, very necessary. Some of the women on here can tell you stories along those lines.And in those cases, if the mother still refuses a c-section, I think that the above is a VERY sane thing to present to said mother.
This post, I know well, because it still gives me pause, after having a successful waterbirth and likely headed towards another one. I think it should be required reading for ANYONE thinking about waterbirth.
I happen to think that my baby is still exposed to fewer germs being born into my bathtub at home than being born into the average hospital room. Also, most of the germs in the former are ones that the baby has been exposed to prior to birth, or will be exposed to shortly after. The same isn't true of the latter. And there have been studies showing that waterbirth is just as same as "land" birth. I don't know if Dr. Amy has responded to them yet -- I'm pretty sure they've come out since I read that original post.
That said, for the quote above, I think it's a very sane question to ask. I surely wouldn't poop in my bathtub and then stick my face in it, but that is exactly what might happen if this one is born into the water. (I didn't poop with DS
)
That's all I have time for right now... but I still don't see the insanity.
Mommy to DD1 (June 2007), DS (January 2010), DD2 (July 2012), and The Next One (EDD 3/31/2015)
I have read plenty of her writing. Does she sometimes make good points? Yes. Are there legit issues with NB and HB advocacy? Yes. But the extremist and vitriolic rhetoric she uses does make her seem like a crazy and I don't trust what she is saying when her bias seems so vehement and personal. She reminds me of the many bumpies I have seen go off the deep end. If someone wants the POV of an obstetrician who seems to be playing with a full deck, I like the Academic OB/gyn. And FWIW I also think Gloria Lemay and Nancy Wainer and those extremist NB types are crazy cakes too.
Yeah. I wouldn't stick my head in someone's vagina either though. I see her point but it's birth. Gross, messy, germy--no matter how it happens. I mean the baby's face comes out right by the mother's anus and her intestinal germs invade and colonize the baby's body. So meh.
I agree with all of this. I wish that her blog was more well-balanced and could present some of the legitimate issues with NB/HB. She has, at times done so, and I have learned a thing or two from it. However, the vast majority of her posts are devoid of any meaningful information, and are nasty, spiteful and cruel. I also take exceptional offense to her entries that single out tragedies, parading out a family's suffering, without their consent.
Come on ladies, stop reading the crazy diaries.
You will never convince people who do not want to be convinced, that also includes people who believe in NB.
Some people truly feel that pain free birth is the best thing. I laughed on the inside when I had to explain to the Dr (back-up care who works with my MW) why I would not want to avoid pain when it is posisble.
No need to get mad at people who need to be medicated (har har)
FWIW, I know that one of my mw's clients had to sign just such a form (I realize if I don't have a c-section that my baby could die) when she had her breech birth in the hospital
it happens, which is nutty.
Flyer, I get what you're saying and I totally agree that unsafe home birth midwives need to be called out, but Dr. Amy shouldn't be leading the charge. Jennifer Block had a rrally good interview with Dr. Amy a few years back, and it really made her sound like a bitter crazy woman (I'm on my phone, but I'll find it and post it later).
I like Navelgazing Midwife and her philosophy about birth the best, I think. And I also really wish people like her or Dr Amy would spend time advocating for a better maternity care system that respects the whole spectrum of birth choices. Something along the lines of Holland, where home birth is part of the system, and HBMW can easily get help/support from hospital-based providers without fear of legal action.
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
I agree... to be clear, I read Dr. Amy's post *before* DS's waterbirth, and still obviously decided that it was OK. But I still don't think that the fact that she questioned whether waterbirth is sanitary = she's BSC. In fact, there have been posts on this board asking similar questions.
Also, I should mention that most of what I read of hers was back in... mmm... late 2008/early 2009, I think. On her old Homebirth Debate blog, not the current Skeptical OB blog. On that blog, the vast majority of the posts were about various issues related to natural birth in general and homebirth specifically. Also, there were usually hundreds of comments on each post, from people with a variety of different backgrounds, including midwives and other proponents of natural birth, as well as people who had highly medicalized births for very good reasons. I loved reading their differing perspectives on the topics.
The current blog seems like it slips into personal attacks on specific people much more, which is less useful to me and does make Dr. Amy sound bitter. Also, the commenters seem to be much less supportive of natural birth overall, so there is less counterbalance to whatever Dr. Amy is spewing.
Still, I don't think she's BSC, or at least, she's no more BSC than many natural birth advocates. I mean, Ina May Gaskin implied that Pitocin and epidurals cause autism -- and (sadly) that was not satire.
Mommy to DD1 (June 2007), DS (January 2010), DD2 (July 2012), and The Next One (EDD 3/31/2015)
I am by no means a frequent poster but this caught my attention. For the record I hope to have a natural birth and have been doing the necessary preparations conducive to making that happen.
However, as big of a NB believer as I am, I also believe this radical lady does have a good point that she makes in several posts. It's the underlying theme that baby's health is, (or should be,) more important than the mothers birth experience. Too many NB advocates spend too much time planning out every detail of birth and get so caught up in selfish expectations that they forget the big picture... HEALTHY BABY!
Also, for for those who HB, that's all good and fine and it's each individuals prerogative, however my mom works in a NICU and there is an overwhelming number of HB babies in there whose problems could have been avoided if they would have had the proper medical care in a more timely manner. If you choose to HB that's fine, but I think some people should take the blinders off and recognize that it does carry a higher risk and be ready to take responsibility for and/or plan for unforeseen consequences. This is all just MO and I hope it doesn't come off as judgy, I guess I'm speaking more against the extreme side, if that makes sense.
Do you also have any source for your claims about HB and the NICU?
I agree. In my experience, the vast majority (99.99%) of women are looking to have a NB because they feel (not that it is necessarily always true) that it is the healthiest thing for their LO.
Perhaps the issue is not with HB itself though. Maybe the problem is that home birth is poorly regulated and not integrated into our health care system at all. If HB could be done legally in all 50 states by licensed, regulated, highly trained midwives who had a relationship with local hospitals and physicians, I am sure we would see better outcomes. In fact, whenever there is a study from, say, the Netherlands showing that HB is just as safe as hospial birth, anti-HB responses say "but those results don't apply here because HB is integrated into their maternity care system." So if that is what it takes to make HB safer, why don't we do that here? Instead we have ACOG, Dr. Amy, etc. making wholesale condemnations of home birth itself. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water. There is a big difference between a HB attended by a CNM who also has hospital priveleges and a relationship with local OBs, and a HB attended by a illegally practicing lay midwife who has to call 911 and hide in the closet if something goes wrong.
There are legit reasons to want a home birth. Let's make sure those moms and babies are getting good care.
two thumbs up. I live in Canada, one of the countries where midwifery is regulated, midwives have university degrees in midwifery, and all midwives have hospital and homebirth privileges for low-risk pregnancies. The BC government has carefully tracked midwife-attended births at home and hospital since midwifery care became regulated and covered under the public health care system and found that homebirths are at least as safe as low-risk hospital births attended by physicians (and actually have lower rates of infant death, birth injuries, post-partum hemmoraging, infection, etc). Homebirth can be very safe, but is probably less safe if you are with a poorly trained "midwife."
https://www.cmaj.ca/content/181/6-7/377.full.pdf
Oh lordy, you *don't* post on here much, do you? Totally possible to want a med-free birth and not be a selfish person - shocking, I know.
And also everything Iris said.
DS2 - Oct 2010 (my VBAC baby!)
Number one, yes, I *Don't* post here often, I made that clear. Thank you for stating the obvious. I would like to think that this is a place where one can give their opinion without needing the validation of 4,000 previous posts to back it up.
I too agree with Iris, mom's who want HB should be getting better care, HB should be more integrated in todays birth experiences for those who want it. My post was absolutely never meant to bash HB. I was just stating observations my mom made in her field of work, I never stated it was a medical fact that I had stats for.
I too would like to have a natural birth as I said in my first post, I wish everyone the best of luck whom share the same goal! I think we will all be getting our babies off the the best most natural start!