Intro and question about MFI

AJ1280

Hi all,

I've been a lurker for a while and have really gotten a lot of information and help from your own journeys, so first, thank you!

Our story in a nutshell:  Me 30, DH 32 and we're dealing with severe MFI.  Numbers are low, but but between 13-19 mil, but motility has consistently been at 1%.  At our doctors' recommendations, we're headed straight for ICSI and I begin stims this week.

I have a question for anyone who has dealt with these issues or can offer some advice:  Our RE recommended that DH freeze a sample in case he can't produce day of, just to be safe, yadayada.  He produced his sample for cryo last week and the nurse called today with the results (I didn't realize were going to test this, but ok, that makes sense).  She said the progressive motility was at 1% prior to freeze, but after the freeze, 0% total motility.  Does this mean that even if we use a fresh sample on the day of ER, we might not be able to get any embryos/do we not have as good a chance?   I realize every situation is different, and I asked the nurse this, but honestly was in a haze from not expecting her call with this kind of stellar news and I don't think I really got a definite answer.  Has anybody else been through this before?  Had no cryo survive but still success with fresh?  

LaLe09

First, it's probably highly unlikely that your hubby will not be able to produce anything on day of. Secondly, if you are asking if they will ICSI nonmotile sperm, the answer is yes. I guess they are still alive even if nonmotile. However with a count of 13-19 mil, even with 1% motility, you should still have some motile sperm for ICSI. (I'd ask more about this though b/c I know clinics vary in how they choose sperm for ICSI).

 I'm basing this off of my own experience with my DH who has literally 20 sperm in his samples. They are still able to ICSI even with an almost zero sperm count. In our situation, we always have cryo for backup, but have never had to use it. If for some crazy reason we have zero sperm on day of ER and the cryo sperm is crap, we would just freeze my eggs and try again later.

I know it's stressful, but hang in there!

maggie2324

For ICSI, they try to pick a perfect sperm. Then they break it's tail to immobilize it before they inject it in.

If there isn't a perfect sperm, they will do the best with what they've got. Fertilization rates may be lower, but it shouldn't be a huge problem.

Thats a great count for IVF. I wouldn't worry. 

Mayan2011

In my experience they will ICSI with very low numbers of motility, count, and morph.  I, however, do not believe this is always the best approach (diagnosis dependent).  All of these low numbers are often symptoms of a larger issue - which is also tied to sperm DNA.  You will have to search hard for a RE who will actually admit this.

The approach the DH and I took for our 3rd IVF: 

Both of us were on supps for months.  DH saw an incredible increase in his numbers and so far this has been our most successful cycle - some would say coincidence, but I don't think so.  I wish we would have taken the time to research supps prior to IVF 1, especially b/c we are OOP.  Unfortunately, we found out the hard way that ICSI isn't magic - although it is sometimes portrayed this way.

If you haven't already, you should read The Infertility Cure by Randine Lewis.  It is an excellent book.

Mayan2011

maggie2324:

For ICSI, they try to pick a perfect sperm. Then they break it's tail to immobilize it before they inject it in.

If there isn't a perfect sperm, they will do the best with what they've got. Fertilization rates may be lower, but it shouldn't be a huge problem.

Thats a great count for IVF. I wouldn't worry. 

There is MUCH more to perfect sperm than shape and motility and it can be a HUGE problem.  I am tired of the puppy dog and rainbow attitudes...  These boards are here to support ladies and at the same time give them realistic answers to sometimes tough questions.  We should not sugar coat IF or provide false hope.

heathergirl67

Mayan2011:

maggie2324:

For ICSI, they try to pick a perfect sperm. Then they break it's tail to immobilize it before they inject it in.

If there isn't a perfect sperm, they will do the best with what they've got. Fertilization rates may be lower, but it shouldn't be a huge problem.

Thats a great count for IVF. I wouldn't worry. 

There is MUCH more to perfect sperm than shape and motility and it can be a HUGE problem.  I am tired of the puppy dog and rainbow attitudes...  These boards are here to support ladies and at the same time give them realistic answers to sometimes tough questions.  We should not sugar coat IF or provide false hope.

On the other hand, I've talked to two RE's about exactly what you've mentioned and they've completely disagreed with you. Like you said, you have to search to find an RE who agrees with what you're saying. So I don't think it's a bad idea for posters to give the advice and opinions that most RE's give. If you disagree with them that's your issue. But it doesn't make anyone else being falsely "puppies and rainbows" because they don't agree with your minority opinion.

Mayan2011

heathergirl67:

Mayan2011:

maggie2324:

For ICSI, they try to pick a perfect sperm. Then they break it's tail to immobilize it before they inject it in.

If there isn't a perfect sperm, they will do the best with what they've got. Fertilization rates may be lower, but it shouldn't be a huge problem.

Thats a great count for IVF. I wouldn't worry. 

There is MUCH more to perfect sperm than shape and motility and it can be a HUGE problem.  I am tired of the puppy dog and rainbow attitudes...  These boards are here to support ladies and at the same time give them realistic answers to sometimes tough questions.  We should not sugar coat IF or provide false hope.

On the other hand, I've talked to two RE's about exactly what you've mentioned and they've completely disagreed with you. Like you said, you have to search to find an RE who agrees with what you're saying. So I don't think it's a bad idea for posters to give the advice and opinions that most RE's give. If you disagree with them that's your issue. But it doesn't make anyone else being falsely "puppies and rainbows" because they don't agree with your minority opinion.

Are you kidding me?  It isn't a minority opinion.  Also, I did not say that REs didn't agree with me - what I did say was that you will have a hard time finding one who will admit this. 

Fortunately, our second RE was quite candid about a lot of things - including the reality of ICSI and the addition of supplements.  This was quite different than the magical world of ICSI that was presented by our first RE.  Granted, the addition of supplements, is not a 100% guarantee fix - nothing is in the world of IF.

You also have to remember in all of this that IVF is a business - as much as we have emotions invested in it and as much as our REs care about us - they wouldn't be in the 'industry' if they weren't making money.  It is the hard truth.  It is up to us to do our research and do everything we can to assist the process and take charge of our IF situation.

Perhaps puppies and rainbows was a bit harsh, but I thought the advice that was given was very poor - "I wouldn't worry about it"?!?!?!  Ummm, come on.

heathergirl67

Mayan2011:

heathergirl67:

Mayan2011:

maggie2324:

For ICSI, they try to pick a perfect sperm. Then they break it's tail to immobilize it before they inject it in.

If there isn't a perfect sperm, they will do the best with what they've got. Fertilization rates may be lower, but it shouldn't be a huge problem.

Thats a great count for IVF. I wouldn't worry. 

There is MUCH more to perfect sperm than shape and motility and it can be a HUGE problem.  I am tired of the puppy dog and rainbow attitudes...  These boards are here to support ladies and at the same time give them realistic answers to sometimes tough questions.  We should not sugar coat IF or provide false hope.

On the other hand, I've talked to two RE's about exactly what you've mentioned and they've completely disagreed with you. Like you said, you have to search to find an RE who agrees with what you're saying. So I don't think it's a bad idea for posters to give the advice and opinions that most RE's give. If you disagree with them that's your issue. But it doesn't make anyone else being falsely "puppies and rainbows" because they don't agree with your minority opinion.

Are you kidding me?  It isn't a minority opinion.  Also, I did not say that REs didn't agree with me - what I did say was that you will have a hard time finding one who will admit this. 

Fortunately, our second RE was quite candid about a lot of things - including the reality of ICSI and the addition of supplements.  This was quite different than the magical world of ICSI that was presented by our first RE.  Granted, the addition of supplements, is not a 100% guarantee fix - nothing is in the world of IF.

You also have to remember in all of this that IVF is a business - as much as we have emotions invested in it and as much as our REs care about us - they wouldn't be in the 'industry' if they weren't making money.  It is the hard truth.  It is up to us to do our research and do everything we can to assist the process and take charge of our IF situation.

Perhaps puppies and rainbows was a bit harsh, but I thought the advice that was given was very poor - "I wouldn't worry about it"?!?!?!  Ummm, come on.

If it's not a minority opinion then that means it's a majority opinion. And if most RE's hold that opinion but don't admit to it, then that means that most RE's are lying. I just don't buy that. Not because of some naive belief that most RE's sole motivating factor in practicing medicine is the desire to make people's dreams of a family come true. It's better for them, financially, to get their patients pregnant. Higher success rates = more business. So they'll do everything they think will help to get us pregnant. And if they really thought that poor SA numbers meant poorer sperm quality, poorer embryo quality, and poorer success rates, then they'd be suggesting DS or turning MFI patients away the same way some do for DOR patients. But they (for the most part) don't. They have confidence that ICSI will give us a fighting chance to get pregnant.

That's not to say that I don't agree with you or your RE. It is something that I've looked into as well because our diagnosis is MF. I think there should be more research into it because it seems like a viable theory, at least in some cases. However, the SOP atm is ICSI for MFI and they have a lot of success with that, so that obviously indicates that poor sperm performance in some areas doesn't always mean that it will be insufficient to create a baby.

But really, all of that is beside the point. The point of my original post is that I don't think it's fair to be inferring that other posters are giving a falsely positive picture because they're echoing what the majority of RE's would say. I don't think that's "poor advice" on their part at all.

LaLe09

Mayan2011:

In my experience they will ICSI with very low numbers of motility, count, and morph.  I, however, do not believe this is always the best approach (diagnosis dependent).  All of these low numbers are often symptoms of a larger issue - which is also tied to sperm DNA.  You will have to search hard for a RE who will actually admit this.

The approach the DH and I took for our 3rd IVF: 

Both of us were on supps for months.  DH saw an incredible increase in his numbers and so far this has been our most successful cycle - some would say coincidence, but I don't think so.  I wish we would have taken the time to research supps prior to IVF 1, especially b/c we are OOP.  Unfortunately, we found out the hard way that ICSI isn't magic - although it is sometimes portrayed this way.

If you haven't already, you should read The Infertility Cure by Randine Lewis.  It is an excellent book.

I have just found a RE who admits that sperm can contribute to embryo quality. My hubby's new Uro says that there is new research is coming out now supporting this concept. I guess it's a newer concept so my previous RE said I had the best chances of conceiving- like over 65%. That's changed now obviously. We are doing the same thing with my DH- LOTS of supplements and clomid. And he's been working out nonstop. We won't be doing IVF again unless DH's counts improve drastically so we are giving it our all. We are giving it several months. Glad you were successful!

AJ1280

Mayan2011:

In my experience they will ICSI with very low numbers of motility, count, and morph.  I, however, do not believe this is always the best approach (diagnosis dependent).  All of these low numbers are often symptoms of a larger issue - which is also tied to sperm DNA.  You will have to search hard for a RE who will actually admit this.

The approach the DH and I took for our 3rd IVF: 

Both of us were on supps for months.  DH saw an incredible increase in his numbers and so far this has been our most successful cycle - some would say coincidence, but I don't think so.  I wish we would have taken the time to research supps prior to IVF 1, especially b/c we are OOP.  Unfortunately, we found out the hard way that ICSI isn't magic - although it is sometimes portrayed this way.

If you haven't already, you should read The Infertility Cure by Randine Lewis.  It is an excellent book.

Thanks everyone, for sharing your  experiences.  Did you have any trouble getting your DH to use supps/take on lifestyle changes?  I've read the Infertility Cure and am doing acupuncture myself but am having a hard time getting him to try and at least think about those types of lifestyle changes.  My acupuncturist said that he should cut back on processed foods, which goes along with everything I've read, and the response I get is "everything is processed" and the conversation kind of dies there. 

Mayan2011

AJ1280:

Mayan2011:

In my experience they will ICSI with very low numbers of motility, count, and morph.  I, however, do not believe this is always the best approach (diagnosis dependent).  All of these low numbers are often symptoms of a larger issue - which is also tied to sperm DNA.  You will have to search hard for a RE who will actually admit this.

The approach the DH and I took for our 3rd IVF: 

Both of us were on supps for months.  DH saw an incredible increase in his numbers and so far this has been our most successful cycle - some would say coincidence, but I don't think so.  I wish we would have taken the time to research supps prior to IVF 1, especially b/c we are OOP.  Unfortunately, we found out the hard way that ICSI isn't magic - although it is sometimes portrayed this way.

If you haven't already, you should read The Infertility Cure by Randine Lewis.  It is an excellent book.

Thanks everyone, for sharing your  experiences.  Did you have any trouble getting your DH to use supps/take on lifestyle changes?  I've read the Infertility Cure and am doing acupuncture myself but am having a hard time getting him to try and at least think about those types of lifestyle changes.  My acupuncturist said that he should cut back on processed foods, which goes along with everything I've read, and the response I get is "everything is processed" and the conversation kind of dies there. 

My DH wouldn't do acupunture and the gym just isn't his thing.  The changes he made: ate a lot more organic foods and upped his anti-oxidant (mainly berries & POM juice) and nut intake. He had a berry (POM juice smoothie every morning w breakfast and had a nut mixture on hand throughout the day to munch on.

For supps he took: FertilAid, CoQ10, pyncogenol, selenium, L-arginine, men's multi-vitamin, and ultra omega 3s.

His count went up from 12-19mil to 50mil and his motility went up from 6% to 63%. Our RE just put our other paperwork in the mail so I don't know yet what impact, if any it had on his morph. Pre-supplement his morph was 1%.

GL sweets.  I really hope that the changes you and your DH make help you in your journey. 

Mayan2011

heathergirl67:

Mayan2011:

heathergirl67:

Mayan2011:

maggie2324:

For ICSI, they try to pick a perfect sperm. Then they break it's tail to immobilize it before they inject it in.

If there isn't a perfect sperm, they will do the best with what they've got. Fertilization rates may be lower, but it shouldn't be a huge problem.

Thats a great count for IVF. I wouldn't worry. 

There is MUCH more to perfect sperm than shape and motility and it can be a HUGE problem.  I am tired of the puppy dog and rainbow attitudes...  These boards are here to support ladies and at the same time give them realistic answers to sometimes tough questions.  We should not sugar coat IF or provide false hope.

On the other hand, I've talked to two RE's about exactly what you've mentioned and they've completely disagreed with you. Like you said, you have to search to find an RE who agrees with what you're saying. So I don't think it's a bad idea for posters to give the advice and opinions that most RE's give. If you disagree with them that's your issue. But it doesn't make anyone else being falsely "puppies and rainbows" because they don't agree with your minority opinion.

Are you kidding me?  It isn't a minority opinion.  Also, I did not say that REs didn't agree with me - what I did say was that you will have a hard time finding one who will admit this. 

Fortunately, our second RE was quite candid about a lot of things - including the reality of ICSI and the addition of supplements.  This was quite different than the magical world of ICSI that was presented by our first RE.  Granted, the addition of supplements, is not a 100% guarantee fix - nothing is in the world of IF.

You also have to remember in all of this that IVF is a business - as much as we have emotions invested in it and as much as our REs care about us - they wouldn't be in the 'industry' if they weren't making money.  It is the hard truth.  It is up to us to do our research and do everything we can to assist the process and take charge of our IF situation.

Perhaps puppies and rainbows was a bit harsh, but I thought the advice that was given was very poor - "I wouldn't worry about it"?!?!?!  Ummm, come on.

If it's not a minority opinion then that means it's a majority opinion. And if most RE's hold that opinion but don't admit to it, then that means that most RE's are lying. I just don't buy that. Not because of some naive belief that most RE's sole motivating factor in practicing medicine is the desire to make people's dreams of a family come true. It's better for them, financially, to get their patients pregnant. Higher success rates = more business. So they'll do everything they think will help to get us pregnant. And if they really thought that poor SA numbers meant poorer sperm quality, poorer embryo quality, and poorer success rates, then they'd be suggesting DS or turning MFI patients away the same way some do for DOR patients. But they (for the most part) don't. They have confidence that ICSI will give us a fighting chance to get pregnant.

That's not to say that I don't agree with you or your RE. It is something that I've looked into as well because our diagnosis is MF. I think there should be more research into it because it seems like a viable theory, at least in some cases. However, the SOP atm is ICSI for MFI and they have a lot of success with that, so that obviously indicates that poor sperm performance in some areas doesn't always mean that it will be insufficient to create a baby.

But really, all of that is beside the point. The point of my original post is that I don't think it's fair to be inferring that other posters are giving a falsely positive picture because they're echoing what the majority of RE's would say. I don't think that's "poor advice" on their part at all.

:::headdesk:::