Sometimes I think my son is way more Asperger than ADHD...

torrey111

for instance I'm reading on the Mayo clinic tonight about Asperger's symptoms and am shaking my head "yep, pretty much" to them all...

for example: "engaging in long winded conversations w/o noticing if the listener is listening".  Yes, sometimes FOR SURE.  But other times I'm blown away by his conversation skills.  

"displaying unusual nonverbal communication, such as lack of eye contact, few facial expressions, or awkward body postures and gestures"  NEVER on the few facial expression but yes, sometimes on the other 2.

"having a hard time "reading" other people or understanding humor.  Yes, at times.

"moving clumsily, with poor coordination" YES!

BUT, he has never at any intense obsession with one or two specific subjects.  He is very empathetic and he doesn't talk in a monotone voice of any kind.  He also doesn't have meltdowns about anything, ever, even when he was a little guy, and is very go-with-the-flow/reasonable and doesn't need any sort of schedule.

I cannot wait for this new eval next month.  I want to know that is going on with him! 

torrey111

-auntie-:

torrey111:

for instance I'm reading on the Mayo clinic tonight about Asperger's symptoms and am shaking my head "yep, pretty much" to them all...

for example: "engaging in long winded conversations w/o noticing if the listener is listening".  Yes, sometimes FOR SURE.  But other times I'm blown away by his conversation skills.  

Oh Auntie, your posts crack me up.  Super informational for sure, but I the added humor. 

How do you define "conversation skills"?

I guess what I mean is he actively listens and then keeps the conversation going with appropriate follow-up questions- most of the time. He can retell events with some detail, although the order might not be correct always and I suppose he does have the tendency to assume the listener knows what he's talking about...he's better at retelling real-life events than what he is reading in a book, for example.

Can he retell a remote event with clarity? Is his ordination of the steps sensible? Does he include enough detail to flesh the story out? Or does he hyperfocus on trivial pieces or assume you have enough background to fill in the gaps?

Can he have a back and forth volley about a subject that is of no interest to him without changing the subject?

See, this ? I have a problem with a bit because it doesn't seem abnormal to me, in my gut, for any 8 year old to want to talk about something they can't relate to or is of no interest.  It seems more a function of adult maturity to sit and take part of a conversation you'd rather not. 

Does he actively seek opinions from others in conversation or is it more about him telling you what he thinks or knows?

Yes, he definitely talks about what he thinks or knows a lot, but pauses to hear what the other is saying at appropriate points, most of the time. I overhear his conversations with his friends a lot so I have some sort of idea...

Is he capable of code switching? Does he set his vocabulary level to suit his listener? Does he get that one doesn't drop the f*bomb on grandma or work SAT-level words into conversation with peers? Do other adults comment on his advanced word choices?

 

Yes, he knows it's inappropriate to say bad words in front of adults.  He doesn't use advanced words in conversation...

"displaying unusual nonverbal communication, such as lack of eye contact, few facial expressions, or awkward body postures and gestures"  NEVER on the few facial expression but yes, sometimes on the other 2.

More important than your opinion is that of his peers. Starting around 4th grade, tweens become hard wired for conformity. This is a normal developmental stage for them during which they are put off by outliers- those kids who do not understand or who flaunt the conventions of the tribe. How do his peers read his non-verbals?

"having a hard time "reading" other people or understanding humor.  Yes, at times.

This is pretty universal among those on spectrum. The "reading" is a function of Theory of Mind. A deficit in this area means he can not intuit the concept that other people hold different ideas in their heads. Most kids develop this skill well before age 4. Even bright kids with Aspergers need to be taught that mom has different thoughts and knowledge than they do- she doesn't know what you did in school because she wasn't there. Other people don't give a ratsazz about trains.

 

Lack of a sense of humor is sometimes a function of poor language process and literal black & white thinking. This is not a universal deficit. I know a lot of kids with Aspergers who have well developed and sometimes off-beat senses of humor. DS is one of the funniest people I know. I know a number of kids who are brighter than DS, who have an HFA dx (with greater atypicality) who are pretty humorless. I think this is one of the differences between AS and HFA.

"moving clumsily, with poor coordination" YES!

This is common, but not universal.

BUT, he has never at any intense obsession with one or two specific subjects.  

Most with Aspergers have strong special interests, but a few meet the criteria on the presence of repetitive behaviors. In the absence of special interests, some kids I know have gotten a PDD-Nos or autism dx instead of Aspergers. Parsing between the dx's, until the new DSM comes out, also focuses on language and adaptive skills. The kid who gets HFA/PDD-Nos might have delayed or significantly atypical language. Self care milestones play into this too. Kids with AS dress, eat, toilet and take care of themselves to the same degree typical peers do.

His self care has never been an issue-he's fine there.  His only real strong special interest in video games, but he lost them for the entire month because he got in trouble the first week of Feb (for going on a playdate right after I told him he couldn't until his HW was done.  I had to go to work and the nanny didn't catch it...) I bring it up because he didn't even cry or overreact when we pulled the video games for the month.  He just kinda sucked it up and accepted his punishment.  Also, he doesn't have delayed or atypical language.

He is very empathetic and he doesn't talk in a monotone voice of any kind.  

I find moms are a pretty poor judge of this. I'm not sure if it's a function of a kid being more animated around the person he most trusts in the world. Most AS kids are devoted to their moms to an almost unhealthy degree. Or maybe it's a function of mommy-goggles. DS has a classmate with whom he's pretty friendly in school. This boy came to an AS dx in about 4th grade. His mother is a lovely, but sort of delusional type. She is constantly gushing about how animated her son is and how his lack of a "flat affect" delayed his dx. I have camped with this kid in scouts and I see him pretty regularly during band season. He has known me for about 5 years. Seriously, the kid has the emotional range of a robot. And not just with me; he's pretty awkward with his peers as well.

I understand the difference between the two- empathy and sympathy- he is much more empathetic almost than sympathetic. Like if someone hurts himself around my DS, my DS will probably just stand there and not react.   But, in conversation about various things, his empathetic nature is quite evident.

 

A lot of moms confuse empathy and sympathy. Empathy can be learned to some degree, but it requires rote instruction and considerable effort. Sympathy is when a child responds in a nurturing manner to another hurt child. This is not empathy because the child responding has had the experience of being hurt and can draw upon that. Empathy requires putting oneself into a mindset that one has not experienced. For a kid who processes the world in black and white and doesn't "get" that other people feel and think differently it's a major challenge and part of why they struggle socially.

This is one aspect of the Immersion schooling I like.  From kindie these kids have been learning about other countries and cultures- how they dress, what they wear, what holidays they celebrate and why...it's fundamental in helping a person, any person, whether NT or not, to have an empathetic core, IMO. 

DS, like many of his tribe, doesn't particularly like most team sports. Not being asked to play softball during recess in 6th grade would be a positive outcome in his mind. But a new kid moves to the school. New Kid is a sporty kind of kid who spends his recess wandering the perimeter of the playground. If I asked DS how New Kid feels, he might not "get" that NK is sad, or frustrated to be left out because in his mind, left to look for 4 leaf clovers and chill out during recess is a good thing.

My DS is the same.  He definitely uses lunch and recess to chill out.  He's fine sitting alone at lunch- I am not there but ask occasionally- sometimes he sits with his two friends and sometimes he sits alone and is fine with it. Recess however, he is usually with one or two of his friends playing some imaginary game...  

He also doesn't have meltdowns about anything, ever, even when he was a little guy, and is very go-with-the-flow/reasonable and doesn't need any sort of schedule.

I cannot wait for this new eval next month.  I want to know that is going on with him! 

This is a little unusual. But if you read the DSM criteria, meltdowns aren't even mentioned. My kid never tantrummed either. It's part of why he was dx'd later. When very stressed his MO is to escape into his head which adults don't always notice. if they do, they typically assume it's a function of ADHD (inattentive).

I know!  I used to think it so crazy when I would see kids sprawled out on the floor at Target like crazies.  I would stroll by in my cart and not be able to relate because I have never seen my son do that.  Also, he LOVES traveling!  He has been on a few trips and is THE BEST TRAVELER- no complaining about how long it takes or the food or anything.  Just happy to go.  Last spring he went on a "guys only" trip with my husband, grandpa, and his uncle.  The four of them took a train to the airpot in MPLS, a plane to New Orleans, a cab to the cruise ship, and then a 2 week long cruise with various stops in many countries.  He was in his element and there wasn't one problem the entire trip. 

 

My son actually enjoys a certain amount of novelty and since I have always been a fairly spontaneous person, he's learned to be OK without strict schedules so long as he has an idea of how the day will pan out.

torrey111

re: NT eights and conversation.  I suppose I'm inclined to think that because it's all I've known with my son.  Perspective is hard when you're not around others to see.

re: empathy.  I should clarify- I don't think if it were someone he knew he'd just stand there- with his brother or his friends for instance, I've witnessed a quick response when someone falls down or gets hurt.  But if it's a stranger, I think he doesn't really know how to respond...so in a slightly panicked/confused state at the degree of the injury, he kinda just freezes.  Don't get me wrong, I don't think his responses are typical though...

re: schools and diversity education.  I'm only just beginning to learn more about the state of public schools today, but I feel like while a school may list diversity ed. as something they teach, they more often just touch on it.  The quality and quantity is more concentrated in an immersion setting by nature of it's program- just as science and math will be more the focus of a school that builds it's program around those two subjects.  Other schools teach them to, but to a lesser degree.

The cruel irony is that while seeking the benefits of an immersion education which is why we chose it, we are forced to deal with the realities that are it- native teachers who come from a different school of thought about education and especially learning differences/challenges.  I think they are all very good-hearted people, just uneducated about the issues some of their students have.