Can someone educate me? Vaccines

snickersforeveryone

I have been hearing about people not fully vaccinating their children (slower vaccine schedule or opting out of certain vaccines).  It was even mentioned in a thread today, though I've been meaning to ask for a while. What are the reasons for doing this?  I thought vaccines were on a specific schedule for a reason.  Really and truly not being snarky...I am getting conflicting answers in my web research, and figured I'd ask the moms themselves!

TIA!!!!

Alauren4

This is a very personal decision. I educated myself on the pros and cons of vaccines. I think you can start by reading some information about Dr. Sears alternative vaccine schedule and watching The Vaccine War, it's on Netflix. It's a great film that shows both sides of the issue. It isn't biased at all and I found it very helpful. The Hepititis B shot will be given to your newborn in the hospital, Hep B is contracted by sexual contact. This one many parents do opt out of for obvious reasons...

 I personally went through tons of research because my oldest son has MR, Autism, and a speech impairment that is unexplained so of course as a mommy I tried to find out everything I could on why my son has special needs. But it's up to us as mothers to decide what's best for our family. My children do/will get all their vaccines...

snickersforeveryone

Alauren4:

This is a very personal decision. I educated myself on the pros and cons of vaccines. I think you can start by reading some information about Dr. Sears alternative vaccine schedule and watching the Vaccine War, it's on Netflix. It's a great film that shows both sides of the issue. It isn't biased at all and I found it very helpful.

 I personally went through tons of research because my oldest son has MR, Autism, and a speech impairment that is unexplained so of course as a mommy I tried to find out everything I could on why my son has special needs. But it's up to us as mothers to decide what's best for our family. My children will get all their vaccines...

I will watch this tonight!  I learn better with visuals, so this is perfect for me, and it's so hard to find unbiased documentaries. When you say your kids will get all their vaccines, do you mean you'll use Dr. Sears' alternative schedule, or do you plan to vaccinate on the pediatrician's schedule?

snickersforeveryone

PaddyB:

This is a very touchy subject, where tempers tend to run high.  That said, I plan to vacinate.   I will say that all of the science supporting non-vax (unless your kid has certain specific allegeries/issues) has been discredited by the scientific community as a whole. 

Squint mom does a good job explaining at least part of my position with repect to flu shots for pregnant women.  https://www.squintmom.com/?p=377 and https://www.squintmom.com/?p=384

I've listened to some debate on the subject, but it was in a classroom setting and a few years ago, with little to no back-up info.  I did get the flu shot, because I had a wonderful nurse who talked me into it at the hospital (I had never gotten one before and was concerned it would make me sicker or be bad for baby). I'll check out your links!

Alauren4

eafogel:

Alauren4:

This is a very personal decision. I educated myself on the pros and cons of vaccines. I think you can start by reading some information about Dr. Sears alternative vaccine schedule and watching the Vaccine War, it's on Netflix. It's a great film that shows both sides of the issue. It isn't biased at all and I found it very helpful.

 I personally went through tons of research because my oldest son has MR, Autism, and a speech impairment that is unexplained so of course as a mommy I tried to find out everything I could on why my son has special needs. But it's up to us as mothers to decide what's best for our family. My children will get all their vaccines...

I will watch this tonight!  I learn better with visuals, so this is perfect for me, and it's so hard to find unbiased documentaries. When you say your kids will get all their vaccines, do you mean you'll use Dr. Sears' alternative schedule, or do you plan to vaccinate on the pediatrician's schedule?

I go by my pediatricians schedule and I trust it, after the several years of research on vaccines including my time in college, I find that the best for my children is to have them vaccinated. But again, everyone has their own opinions on this. And let me know what you think of the film, it's a good place to start on your research to find what's best for your family... GL.

TeacherGirl17

This is very interesting to me because I am currently taking a class on the trends and issues in special education and we watched The Vaccine War in class on Saturday.  I don't really agree that it is unbiased, but it does show both sides of the issue.  Many people feel strongly about this and I've already had a few heated arguments with family friends about my strong belief in vaccines.  As a teacher, I've been concerned for some time in parents who choose to not vaccinate their children because all it takes is one non-vaccinated child who went to a developing country and contracted a disease not seen in the US.  This disease can be spread to young children who have not yet had the vaccine because they are too young.  In The Vaccine War they show an infant with whooping cough, who was too young to get the vaccine, but still got the disease from an non-vaccinated child.  It is not for me to tell you how to think, but I believe that everyone should be fully educated on the issue because decided whether or not to vaccinate.

meagan.pilkington

Definitely a hot topic and sensitive issue for some! I work for a pediatrician's office so I'm a bit biased, but I plan on following the normal schedule our practice uses for vaccines. Most children do and have no problems.

The following is mostly about NOT vaccinating, rather than choosing an alternate schedule: 

It is interesting to note that whooping cough (pertussis) was very rare in the US but is becoming an epidemic again, and it seems this started to rise ever since many people decided not to vaccinate their children against this and other diseases. Also, with so many people not vaccinating at all, these children will be more prone to catch these things, and thus pass them on to both other unvaccinated children and children who do get vaccinated. 

Also, you should look into your insurance plan to see how they cover alternative shot schedules because usually if you get them done at your well exam, there is no copay and with some plan may not be subject to a deductible. But sometimes if you have to go back for an extra visit to 'catch up' on shots , they charge an office visit fee since the doc has to assess your child and make sure he/she is healthy enough to receive the shots, and therefore you would have a copay and all the charges would be subject to deductible. Not that this makes a difference if you feel strongly about not immunizing at all, but it's definitely something to think about

cookiemomstarr

TeacherGirl17:

This is very interesting to me because I am currently taking a class on the trends and issues in special education and we watched The Vaccine War in class on Saturday.  I don't really agree that it is unbiased, but it does show both sides of the issue.  Many people feel strongly about this and I've already had a few heated arguments with family friends about my strong belief in vaccines.  As a teacher, I've been concerned for some time in parents who choose to not vaccinate their children because all it takes is one non-vaccinated child who went to a developing country and contracted a disease not seen in the US.  This disease can be spread to young children who have not yet had the vaccine because they are too young.  In The Vaccine War they show an infant with whooping cough, who was too young to get the vaccine, but still got the disease from an non-vaccinated child.  It is not for me to tell you how to think, but I believe that everyone should be fully educated on the issue because decided whether or not to vaccinate.

 

I would hope the parents who choose not to fully vaccinate their children wouldnt take them to a "developing country". That is a rediculous statement.  

caralck

I personally plan to do all the routine vaccines except the rotovirus vaccine.  I'm not personally as convinced that it is necessary like the other ones.  Our clinic doesn't even carry it or vaccinate kids for it.  I have patients who do a delayed schedule and I make them write it out and indicate when they intend on getting each shot so we scan it into their electronic chart.  I also have parents who choose not to vaccinate and I've learned that it's just not worth the energy wasted to convince them otherwise.  They accept the risks to their child's health by not vaccinating.  Many pediatrician offices are discharging patients who don't follow the routine vaccination schedule so that is something to keep in mind if you plan to not vaccinate or follow a delayed schedule.  As far as Hep B goes, I haven't decided yet if I'm going to do that one at birth or wait.  I'm not a carrier for Hep B so I'm not worried about my baby getting Hep B.  I think ultimately if you are willing to accept the risks of not vaccinating, then you can make that choice.  Keep in mind that we vaccinate the people who can get the shots to also protect those who can't be vaccinated (immune system issues) and rely on the "herd immunity."  Measles is also making a come back because of people who delay or refuse that vaccine.  A baby with pertussis (whooping cough) can die because of airway swelling and often they get it from their parents or caretakers because our immunity to pertussis from our childhood shots wore off long ago (make sure you and DH and any other caretakers are up to date on the tdap vaccine, and don't just get the tetanus booster without the pertussis).  

coloradogirl06

All of the pp have provided you with good info. There was a post today on my local board about how close this can hit to home. Check out the following link for real people having real issues surrounding vax...

https://community.thenest.com/cs/ks/forums/thread/63179780.aspx

caralck

Ok, just watched that Vaccine War show on netflix.  I thought it did a very good job of discussing the benefits of vaccines and the misperceptions of the risks and that coincidence does not equal causation.  I found it amusing that Jenny McCarthy said "They won't do the research" and then that was followed by the fact that they are and did do the research and did a hell of a better job than the quack in England who had his license taken from him as well as his article pulled from The Lancet for falsifying data.  I'm very surprised that despite this, McCarthy and her cohorts are still willing to believe him.  I do think they brought up excellent points that most of us have never seen the diseases we vaccinate against or the consequences so the fear of the disease is not as great as the fear of the very rare risks of vaccinating.  We lost my FIL to complications of post-polio syndrome in 2010.  He was the only case of polio in his entire county the year he was infected and in fact, no other case of polio in the surrounding counties either.  The vaccine was not yet available.  He was close to being put in the iron lung but they used a talc-based product to make his lungs stick to his chest wall and stay inflated on their own.  He had significant physical disabilities in his lower extremities but made up for it with incredible upper body strength.  So while the loss we suffered wasn't from acute infection of a vaccine preventible disease, it was still a painful reminder to DH and I why we would be vaccinating our kids.

flyer23

To address your comment:

"I thought vaccines were on a specific schedule for a reason."

They ARE on a specific schedule for a reason. But those reasons may or may not apply to you. For example:

* The "shot 'em while you got 'em" philosophy -- many vaccines are given when kids are very young, because parents are more likely to bring babies in for well checks than older children. In addition, a lot of vaccines are typically given at each appointment (e.g. the schedule calls for up to six vaccines at 2 months of age) because parents are less likely to bring kids back for multiple visits. There's a very valid concern that a more spaced-out vaccine schedule might lead to lower vaccination rates. But if you're the type of parent who plans to bring your kid to the doctor's office regularly, this doesn't really apply to you.

* HepB is recommended at birth because of the possibility that the mother may have acquired HepB between the time of her prenatal testing (typically early in the pregnancy) and the actual birth. If you and your husband are monogamous and you tested negative for HepB early in the pregnancy, this is highly unlikely.

* The varicella (chicken pox) vaccine was adopted on the vaccine schedule in part to reduce parental time off work to care for kids sick with chicken pox. If you have a care arrangement that wouldn't require you to take time off work if your kid got chicken pox (e.g. a stay-at-home parent or grandparent who cares for the child), or if you just don't care about having to take off work , this doesn't apply to you.

* Rotavirus is on the schedule for similar reasons. Also, it's a lifesaving vaccine for kids in developing countries, so giving it in developed countries (where it can be sold for a higher price) helps subsidize the costs of giving it in developing countries.

And so on...

On the flip side, some parents have concerns about giving so many vaccines, so early in life. Just speaking from my own experience, we vaccinated DD on time at 2 months, so she got five vaccines (DTaP, Hib, IPV/polio, PCV, and rotavirus) in one day. And she was... well, WEIRD, for a week afterwards. Hard to explain. We started vaccinating DS at six months, and have done no more than two shots per visit, and have had no issues. That's far from scientific proof, I know. And so I'm not anti-vaccine at all; I plan for both kids to eventually be fully vaccinated. (We stopped with DD after that 2-month round of shots, but started up again at 15 months, with no more than 2 shots per visit as well. She's now 4, and is only missing her varicella shot, which I do plan for her to get in the next few years.)

But I personally don't see the need to follow the CDC's schedule to the T. We talk it over with our pediatrician at each appointment and make a decision on which shots to get, based on our family's personal risk factors. Honestly, I think that's how it SHOULD be, for everyone -- a one-size-fits-all schedule is good health policy for the entire country, but not always good medicine for a specific individual.

lilyaster

You really have to do your own research, but I did enjoy reading the Dr. Sears vaccine book.  My kids are currently up to date and we give all vaccines, but I held off on any, including hep B, until they were 2 months old.  I chose to delay a few (hep A was one I think) and at times when they were scheduled to get a large number of vaccines together, we broke it up.  I made those decisions after reading the book, which is very informative about each vaccine, potential side effects, and the illness it prevents. 

Alauren4

caralck:

I personally plan to do all the routine vaccines except the rotovirus vaccine.  I'm not personally as convinced that it is necessary like the other ones.  Our clinic doesn't even carry it or vaccinate kids for it.  I have patients who do a delayed schedule and I make them write it out and indicate when they intend on getting each shot so we scan it into their electronic chart.  I also have parents who choose not to vaccinate and I've learned that it's just not worth the energy wasted to convince them otherwise.  They accept the risks to their child's health by not vaccinating.  Many pediatrician offices are discharging patients who don't follow the routine vaccination schedule so that is something to keep in mind if you plan to not vaccinate or follow a delayed schedule.  As far as Hep B goes, I haven't decided yet if I'm going to do that one at birth or wait.  I'm not a carrier for Hep B so I'm not worried about my baby getting Hep B.  I think ultimately if you are willing to accept the risks of not vaccinating, then you can make that choice.  Keep in mind that we vaccinate the people who can get the shots to also protect those who can't be vaccinated (immune system issues) and rely on the "herd immunity."  Measles is also making a come back because of people who delay or refuse that vaccine.  A baby with pertussis (whooping cough) can die because of airway swelling and often they get it from their parents or caretakers because our immunity to pertussis from our childhood shots wore off long ago (make sure you and DH and any other caretakers are up to date on the tdap vaccine, and don't just get the tetanus booster without the pertussis).  

Do you have a significant reason to refuse the rotovirus vaccine? I am worried about this because my son now 9yrs old got rotovirus when he was younger and the vaccine wasn't yet available. OMG! It was awful and we ended up in the ER. The reason rotovirus has slowed down is becasue of the vaccine... Please do more research on this it isn't a pretty virus!

Fluffy1919

I agree with Flyer23. Initially I was for vaccines, then I started to do some research (easily done in my pharmacy classes, I got a lot of research papers done with this topic xD) and then was completely against them. Now though I'm taking the middle road, my child will get some vaccines (Ex. polio) but I'm going to follow the schedule in Japan where they wait till 2 years old to start, this eliminates a lot of the booster shots and can be more easily spread out. They also showed a large reduction in SIDS when they switched to this schedule. (If this has since been disproved please let me know). 

As for the very few cases of polio, there were several documentaries that pointed out that children who had received the polio vaccine and then developed symptoms that were the same as polio weren't labeled as having it because they had the vaccine. Vaccines do not give 100% immunity, but the 99% is enough to make me still get the vaccine.

Also a big problem people had with vaccines was that they use Mercury as a preservative (though Germany showed that vaccines with mercury and vaccines w/o Mercury showed no difference in death/reaction rates).  BUT, I still wouldn't want that toxic substance in my vaccine. Another big thing is that the pharmaceutical companies are not required to disclose all the ingredients in their vaccines meaning there is a large chance of an allergic reaction (they say this is to prevent 'theft' of the formula). 

Example, the N1H1 has MSG in it (why? who the hell knows?), I'm very allergic to MSG and if I had gotten this vaccine I would have gotten very ill, broken out into hives, and needed steroids for about 2 weeks. Now imagine that happening to a baby? 

caralck

As a PP indicated, rotovirus deaths are more of an issue in developing countries.  The side effects of rotovirus include diarrhea, which for an infant, can be life threatening.  I do know what rotovirus looks like as I have treated children with it during training at the university hospital.  And every year, a few pediatric interns and FP interns get taken down by rotovirus infections.  I escaped that one but half my fellow interns that year did not.  Compared to all the other vaccines for preventible illnesses, the rotovirus vaccine has the higher likelihood of side effects that are similar to the actual disease it is supposed to prevent.  I'll take my chances that I'll have to hospitalize my baby for diarrhea (other viruses, that are not vaccinated for, also cause diarrheal illnesses no different in presentation to rotovirus in terms of health risks to the baby).  There's also the very low risk of intestinal intussusception and Kawasaki syndrome but that's not part of my decision. It's the only vaccine we're skipping.

maykious

I agree with the others who have all mentioned how very personal this is and how some people can have certain reactions to vaccines and others are perfectly fine. It's not a good idea to make a blanket statement that all vaccines are "bad" or "good" or that even one in particular is bad or good.

My husband is an epidemiologist, so we'll do the research and make sure there won't be an averse reactions (to the best of our knowledge), but our kids will absolutely be vaccinated for all the normal stuff. 

The best thing you can do is research each individual vaccine. Medical journals are generally unbiased places to find good info and the ladies here have also given a lot of good information. But try to keep things in context. Yes, polio is incredibly rare, but almost everyone in this country has the vaccine. The rare cases that do occur happen only to those who aren't vaccinated. The "herd mentality" doesn't always work. If everyone on the planet is vaccinated against something, then all that means is that you won't catch it from another person.

I had an (adult, intelligent) argument with someone on Facebook (personal page) about the chicken pox vaccine in particular. If anyone is looking for a good reason to get it, PM me and I'll give you my argument.

caralck

The chickenpox virus is more than an inconvenience for parents missing work, as a pp stated.  It can actually cause life threatening disease.  Thankfully that is rare and most kids sail through it just fine.  However, the older you are when you get it, the more severe the disease and more complications.

flyer23

caralck:

The chickenpox virus is more than an inconvenience for parents missing work, as a pp stated.  It can actually cause life threatening disease.  Thankfully that is rare and most kids sail through it just fine.  However, the older you are when you get it, the more severe the disease and more complications.

This is true, and that's why I absolutely plan for DD to get it, probably in the next few years (she is currently 4) if she's not infected naturally. But does she need to get it at 12 months old, as the CDC schedule recommends? Ehhhh...

Just to prove I didn't make up the parents-missing-work argument, it's here, in the original recommendations for the use of the varicella vaccine: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00042990.htm

Under "Cost Benefit of Vaccine:"

A recent cost-effectiveness study (96) was performed using current estimates of morbidity and mortality (CDC, unpublished data), mathematical modeling of the projected impact of vaccination (97), and current direct and indirect costs. Unlike a previous study published in 1985 (98), the recent analysis accounted for potential changes in the frequency and severity of varicella-related complications resulting from expected changes in the epidemiology and age distribution of varicella following widespread use of varicella virus vaccine. Additional efficacy data for 1985-1993 were available, and empiric data on medical utilization and costs of work-loss resulting from varicella were used. The results of this study, which were determined using an estimated cost of $35 per dose of vaccine and $5 for vaccine administration, indicated a savings of $5.40 for each dollar spent on routine vaccination of preschool-age children when direct and indirect costs were considered. When only direct medical costs were considered, the benefit-cost ratio was 0.90:1.

In other words, if you only consider direct medical costs, a widespread vaccination program costs more than just letting kids get chicken pox naturally and dealing with the consequences. It's when you factor in the indirect costs, including costs of work-loss, then you get a big savings.

flyer23

maykious:

Yes, polio is incredibly rare, but almost everyone in this country has the vaccine. The rare cases that do occur happen only to those who aren't vaccinated.

No, in the case of polio in the USA, it's not rare. It's been nonexistent for nearly 20 years now.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/dis-faqs.htm

Is polio still a disease seen in the United States?

The last cases of naturally occurring paralytic polio in the United States were in 1979, when an outbreak occurred among the Amish in several Midwestern states. From 1980 through 1999, there were 162 confirmed cases of paralytic polio cases reported. Of the 162 cases, eight cases were acquired outside the United States and imported. The last imported case caused by wild poliovirus into the United States was reported in 1993. The remaining 154 cases were vaccine-associated paralytic polio (VAPP) caused by live oral poliovirus vaccine (OPV).

(Note: OPV isn't used anymore in the USA, because of that unfortunate side effect of occasionally causing polio. American kids get IPV, which is less effective in areas where polio is still endemic, but can't cause polio.)

I'll repeat again that I do think it's important to get vaccinated against polio, because we certainly don't want to see it make a comeback in the USA. DD is fully vaccinated against it and it'll likely be the next vaccine series we do for DS. But at 2 months old? Ehhh...

For many other diseases, they do occur in vaccinated individuals, because no vaccine is 100% effective. In fact, in many cases, the majority of individuals infected during an outbreak are vaccinated. This is NOT an argument in favor of skipping vaccinations, as some try to say; the CDC does a good job of explaining it here: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#Themajorityofpeople

flyer23

Fluffy1919:

I agree with Flyer23. Initially I was for vaccines, then I started to do some research (easily done in my pharmacy classes, I got a lot of research papers done with this topic xD) and then was completely against them. Now though I'm taking the middle road, my child will get some vaccines (Ex. polio) but I'm going to follow the schedule in Japan where they wait till 2 years old to start, this eliminates a lot of the booster shots and can be more easily spread out. They also showed a large reduction in SIDS when they switched to this schedule. (If this has since been disproved please let me know). 

As for the very few cases of polio, there were several documentaries that pointed out that children who had received the polio vaccine and then developed symptoms that were the same as polio weren't labeled as having it because they had the vaccine. Vaccines do not give 100% immunity, but the 99% is enough to make me still get the vaccine.

Also a big problem people had with vaccines was that they use Mercury as a preservative (though Germany showed that vaccines with mercury and vaccines w/o Mercury showed no difference in death/reaction rates).  BUT, I still wouldn't want that toxic substance in my vaccine. Another big thing is that the pharmaceutical companies are not required to disclose all the ingredients in their vaccines meaning there is a large chance of an allergic reaction (they say this is to prevent 'theft' of the formula). 

Example, the N1H1 has MSG in it (why? who the hell knows?), I'm very allergic to MSG and if I had gotten this vaccine I would have gotten very ill, broken out into hives, and needed steroids for about 2 weeks. Now imagine that happening to a baby? 

A few clarifications...

The Japanese schedule is here: https://idsc.nih.go.jp/vaccine/dschedule/2011/Imm11EN.pdf. I wouldn't say that they wait till age 2 to start vaccinating...

Vaccine-associated paralytic polio was absolutely recognized as being "real" polio. See the CDC link I gave above. It's also discussed in the CDC Pink Book chapter on polio.

Mercury (in thimerosol) is only used as a preservative in a handful of vaccines these days. And there are thimerosol-free alternatives for all of them.

And it's H1N1, not N1H1, and it's not used anymore -- the monovalent vaccine was only used during the 2009-2010 flu season. The seasonal flu vaccine now protects against H1N1. As for MSG, it's only an ingredient in the nasal spray version of the vaccine. (Which isn't licensed for babies under age 2, BTW.) None of the shot versions of the vaccines contain MSG.