Totally not Bump-related--But need to be put in my place--LONG

nevr2amazin

First, I must start this out with the following disclaimer: I am referred to by my niece as a White-conservative male in a Black/Mexican lesbian body. At times this might be appropriate, but her comment a few minutes ago--"Newt Gingrich and I should play chess together"--was a little over the top *smile*.

Okay, the dilemma. I have 2-nieces who I am always up in their business because I had a huge hand in raising them. (From this point on I am only talking about one of them.)

It took me a little while to come to terms that she was a lesbian. Mostly because I thought scars from her past had affected her and she had a fear of men (not so much that she loved women in an intimate way). As my tunnel-vision wore off, I saw that my niece was quite the happy little L-word she claimed she was. I definitely did not like some of the women she dated...I wouldn't of liked men either. Once again, no one could ever be good enough, plus I am judgmental that way *smile*. 

Now skipping to present and the whole purpose of this post. I just got off the phone with my niece who wanted me to know that her partner is going through gender-reassignment. Her partner recently had her breasts removed and has begun HRT. This decision is only a couple of month's old. Uh, isn't a person supposed to live a year as the opposite sex before any operation? Her partner just needed a letter from her therapist stating that her partner would be psychologically better off as a male.

My niece told her SO that she is fine as long as, um, well, .... let's just say...a particular part didn't disappear and another part appear. She said that that would take a lot of work/therapy/couple's counseling. My niece wanted me to know that she is in love with him and that she knew it would be a hard pill for me to swallow. Uh, sadly, she is right. I am still scratching my head.

Help me understand. Having a vagina doesn't disqualify you from being a man, but having a vagina still means my niece is the L-word? My niece doesn't want to be considered straight/bi, she wants to be considered something she fought hard to gain acceptance for. (Scratching my head even harder now.)

(Yes, poor C has to put up with me.)  

Enlighten me folks, enlighten me....(as the Kiddos would say) peeeeeez.

Two*True

You don't even want to get me started down this road.  I'll just sit back and read the responses and maybe PM or email you my thoughts later.

nevr2amazin

Two*True:

You don't even want to get me started down this road.  I'll just sit back and read the responses and maybe PM or email you my thoughts later.

As long as I didn't totally get you PO'd at my, I am fine.

Two*True

nevr2amazin:

Two*True:

You don't even want to get me started down this road.  I'll just sit back and read the responses and maybe PM or email you my thoughts later.

As long as I didn't totally get you PO'd at my, I am fine.

Nope.  I was actually laughing as I read your post.  K and I have had more than one conversation lately about this very subject.

ctbride08

I dont have time to write all of my thoughts at the moment, but for me it boils down to my belief that sexuality is fluid - and doesnt have all that much to do with specific body parts.

I see nothing wrong with people identifying however they wish, calling themselves whatever they want, and loving whomever they choose.

I guess my real question for you is: why do you care?

I dont mean that as an attack or with any disrespect, but just an honest friend-to-friend question. 

She's an adult (i'm assuming), in a relationship that is not harmful to her (i'm assuming) and that makes her happy - outside from those factors, is it really your place to judge? 

As an adult who is in a happy and healthy relationship yourself, how do you feel when others judge you or put you in a box?

 

Two*True

ctbride08:

I dont have time to write all of my thoughts at the moment, but for me it boils down to my belief that sexuality is fluid - and doesnt have all that much to do with specific body parts.

I see nothing wrong with people identifying however they wish, calling themselves whatever they want, and loving whomever they choose.

I guess my real question for you is: why do you care?

I dont mean that as an attack or with any disrespect, but just an honest friend-to-friend question. 

She's an adult (i'm assuming), in a relationship that is not harmful to her (i'm assuming) and that makes her happy - outside from those factors, is it really your place to judge? 

As an adult who is in a happy and healthy relationship yourself, how do you feel when others judge you or put you in a box?

 

I agree with all this and I too believe sexuality is fluid.  However many  people have basic physical attractions.  I've loved me some man and I've also loved me some woman.  But for some lesbians there is just no physical attraction towards a man.  No matter how much you love someone's soul lack of physical attraction is a hard thing to overcome.

Has anyone see the Becoming Chaz documentary on OWN.  That was one of the issues that his then girlfriend (they recently broke up, right?) had. She talked about how she is a lesbian and fell in love with a woman who had soft facial features, a woman's voice, a woman's smile, etc..  She spoke of not being attracted to the physical aspects of  a man and missing the softness that was Chasity. 

 

ctbride08

i agree with that point as well.  I honestly dont know how I would feel if A came to me tomorrow and said she wanted to transition. I like girls because they are soft, round, and have boobs and vaginas.

but another lesbian might feel differently and i'm not about to revoke her lesbian card because of it - if that is the answer that creates the most happiness for those two people, then great.  my personal feelings have no business in their relationship.

Two*True

ctbride08:

i agree with that point as well.  I honestly dont know how I would feel if A came to me tomorrow and said she wanted to transition. I like girls because they are soft, round, and have boobs and vaginas.

but another lesbian might feel differently and i'm not about to revoke her lesbian card because of it - if that is the answer that creates the most happiness for those two people, then great.  my personal feelings have no business in their relationship.

Yeah, I guess I was just trying to point out how a conservative-white-male-hispanic/black-lesbian might have a hard time wrapping his/her head around a lesbian loving a transgender FTM.

And I'm guessing that N2A realizes it will be somewhat difficult for her niece to have the outside world identify her as lesbian if they are seeing her with a male partner.  I think Meegs and Leap have both mentioned on here how once they married someone of one gender their bisexuality sort of became hidden (not on purpose, but as a default of being partnered with someone).

I took N2A post as less judgy and more of a "help me understand" tone.

ctbride08

Two*True:

I took N2A post as less judgy and more of a "help me understand" tone.

You're right. and i didnt take it as judgy either (well, maybe a little )

but my take on it was more: its okay not to understand, you don't really need to.

Two*True

ctbride08:

but my take on it was more: its okay not to understand, you don't really need to.

Ahhh.....so in other words, she should have faith. 

 And why is no one else chiming in on this? 

nevr2amazin

ctbride08:

I dont have time to write all of my thoughts at the moment.

I guess my real question for you is: why do you care?

I dont mean that as an attack or with any disrespect, but just an honest friend-to-friend question. 

She's an adult (i'm assuming), in a relationship that is not harmful to her (i'm assuming) and that makes her happy - outside from those factors, is it really your place to judge? 

As an adult who is in a happy and healthy relationship yourself, how do you feel when others judge you or put you in a box?

I hope you are able to find time to finish. I am also rushed...we get out early today...WOO-HOO!

Why do I care? --That's a good question, and it comes down to, I know my niece. She does like softness, she couldn't stand the feel of her ex-husband's unshaven face...and b/c (I so hope C jumps in) I am all up in her business. She calls me because she knows she can rely on that. I never sit back and say..."it's your life."

I take none of what you wrote as disrespect. I want you to be honest with me, to call me on the carpet. I just don't want to piss off you/Two/2brides/Meegs/Butterfly/Norika/LV/mommymonster/Seattle/Jenn....etc....I am sensitive that way (smile). But if I did, I would want to know.

When it comes to strangers...nah, not my place to judge (though deep down I throw stones...oh, I wish C jumps in!) When it comes to family, watch out, not so much judgment, but OPINION, OPINION, OPINION (C would contest that it doesn't stop there)!

Not to long ago C told me, "S, it's not that you don't forget, it's that you don't forgive." I get on a pedestal (with family) and at times am not the nicest person. With family, if they don't like me for who I am, not to worry, I don't like them for who they are. I am like a "bull" when it comes to my immediate blood relatives. But I would protect and fight for them to the end.

Ct, if someone judged or disrespected you, I would stand up for you and tell you that you shouldn't take it that no one has a right to judge you.

I know that makes me hypocrit based on the way I act with my immediate family (Oh I wish, C jumps in.)

I have so much more to say on the subject regarding my niece...hopefully tonight. 

nevr2amazin

Quickly..........TWO, YOU ARE TOO FUNNY!

Responses to follow tonight!

LV1979

First, I do not take offense to your post at all and respect that you are able to recognize that you have trouble accepting things.

Second, when I first came out I had a super hard time wrapping my head around the concept of FTM, MTF, and every little thing in between (and am very ashamed to say that I was close-minded to the transgendered community).  Then I made a friend who was FTM and a whole new world of understanding opened up to me.  He was struggling with his partner at the time because she was a very proud lesbian and never wanted to be seen otherwise.  In the long run they broke up because while attracted to his heart she just couldnt get past everything else, he also became very much a man when HRT began and his personality changed quite a bit. This may be the same for your niece eventually but then again this person maybe the one for your niece regardless of what gender they identify with.

Third, I am glad you got over the fact that your niece was a lesbian because I was badly abused as a child and struggled badly with my early attractions to women because I was afraid they were in response to that.  Thank god I got over myself because I am SOOOOOO not straight and never was.  I was very afraid coming out to my family however that they would think my childhood trauma were a direct cause of my sexuality.

So breathe N2A and trust that you had a hand in raising a smart woman who knows what she is doing with her heart.  Do not feel bad either that this threw you for a loop I think a lot of times those of us in the LGBT community are expected to be more open-minded than everyone else but we are human too and have our own pre-conceived notions on certain things.

 

seattlekari

N2A...your posts always make me smile, and think and think and think and that's why I love ya! 

I'm not sure I can add much to what's been said already, but I will echo LV's comment that your niece may decide this is not for her at some point. My first gf's previous partner was FTM after they had been together for a few years. From what she told me the personality and temperament changes were significant for him and it was hard for her. But it could also be that your niece will continue to be in love with the person on the inside and the outside won't matter. I wish her (and you as her protective auntie) luck as you navigate this change in her life. And though she said they would need therapy/counseling only if his parts were going to change, I'd encourage it now anyway.

Meegs10.13.06

Two*True:

ctbride08:

i agree with that point as well.  I honestly dont know how I would feel if A came to me tomorrow and said she wanted to transition. I like girls because they are soft, round, and have boobs and vaginas.

but another lesbian might feel differently and i'm not about to revoke her lesbian card because of it - if that is the answer that creates the most happiness for those two people, then great.  my personal feelings have no business in their relationship.

Yeah, I guess I was just trying to point out how a conservative-white-male-hispanic/black-lesbian might have a hard time wrapping his/her head around a lesbian loving a transgender FTM.

And I'm guessing that N2A realizes it will be somewhat difficult for her niece to have the outside world identify her as lesbian if they are seeing her with a male partner.  I think Meegs and Leap have both mentioned on here how once they married someone of one gender their bisexuality sort of became hidden (not on purpose, but as a default of being partnered with someone).

I took N2A post as less judgy and more of a "help me understand" tone.

 Two, that bolded part made me snort!!

 

N2A, I'm not offended, and I don't think most people here would be because you are coming in with a good mindset... help me learn, not here's why I'm judging! 

 

As for the actual post and question. I think I would be in the same camp as you, as far as "not understanding." Lets see if I can make this coherent.

I have a good friend who is FTM (mastectomy, hormones, no down there surgery), and he is wonderful. But he has a lot of problems meeting people because he looks like a man, he acts like a man, he is a man... but he has no penis. His wife, from whom he is now divorced, was straight. She left because she didn't feel that she could live "as a lesbian" anymore (her words). But conversely, for many lesbians, the attraction is not there because he is too masculine. Its a catch-22.

I think before you are actually there in the position, when the person has already transitioned, you can't know how you are going to feel. You also can't know how people are going to react. Is she ready for the world to view her as straight? As Two pointed out, I have a problem with that very thing. Personally, I hate it. Not to mention, is she ready for the disdain that may unfortunately be shown to her partner when/if people find out that he is FTM?

If she feels that she can love her partner as a man the way she loved him as a woman, then I think that is wonderful. But I don't know that I would be able to love Travis the same way if he became a woman. He would still be the same soul, but he would be fundamentally different as a woman then he is as a man. And, not to be crass (and hopefully I don't offend), but sexually... though I love both men and women in that way, I like my men with penises and women with breasts and vaginas.

Ultimately, only your niece can decide if she can live with all the changes that will come to their relationship. But I think no one can truly know until they are actually dealing with them. Good luck to her and you!

butterflygrooves

I always tell J that she should just get a sex change because she refers to herself as a male.  We had a discussion the other day in regards to me still being lesbian if she transtioned, sexuality is fluid for me as well so I dont see why I couldn't still be considered lesbian.  I figure that I fell in love with a woman so I am a lesbian no matter what changes may occur. 

I also have loved me some man but am not emotionally attracted to them, some of them are good looking but just don't give me that connection I need.  Maybe this is how your niece feels?

nmartin1108

While I can't speak directly to your niece's situation I do have some experience in the FTM department ;-) Transitioning is such a complex process (for both people in relationship), there are so many physical, emotional, social, etc, etc, etc changes that will happen. Some of them will be hard to handle and some won't, and that will be different for every person.

I have been on a lot of FTM SO support boards since I met my husband, and I have seen such a range of outcomes when one person decides to transition. I think almost everyone I've "met" goes into the process with the intention of staying with their partner. The issue of sexual orientation comes up A LOT, and I think it's safe to say that the consensus in these groups is that just because a woman is in a relationship with a FTM doesn't negate the fact that they are a lesbian (or straight or bi). 

Some relationships will survive the transition and some won't. It's far to early to tell if your niece will be okay being perceived as straight or be okay with her partners new physical features. It may end up that it matters more to her that this person is who she loves and wants to spend her life with than the fact that she is now with a man. Or it may turn out that it's something she can't live with. Either way, it's just going to take time to figure out, and it sounds like you are a huge part of her life and your support and understanding of the process will be hugely beneficial to her.

 

2brides

Certainly no offense taken here! I agree with everything that has been said. With gender and sexuality it is up to the persons in the relationship to determine what works for them and want doesn't. Who am I to judge if it doesn't affect me/my life? If I don't want others to judge my (non-traditional) sexual orientation/relationship choices, it seems wrong to judge the sexual orientation/gender identity of others.

 

nevr2amazin

ctbride08:

Two*True:

I took N2A post as less judgy and more of a "help me understand" tone.

You're right. and i didnt take it as judgy either (well, maybe a little )

but my take on it was more: its okay not to understand, you don't really need to.

First, thank you all for your insights and thoughts. Secondly, Two, you are too FUNNY! I don't know how much faith I have in this matter. LOL!

I definitely am trying to understand it. I know some of you mentioned that she would still be a lesbian, but as she told me, one of her issues will be being mistaken for straight. In her words, she doesn't want that. Also, she is sexually attracted to women, and being honest, isn't that type of attraction important?

My nieces joke with me about "going to the mountain" when they come to me for advice/thoughts. Albeit, at times a quite conservative mountain.  Regardless, this time I need a few shots of tequila and having you all in a group setting as we discuss.

 

nevr2amazin

ctbride08:

Two*True:

I took N2A post as less judgy and more of a "help me understand" tone.

You're right. and i didnt take it as judgy either (well, maybe a little )

but my take on it was more: its okay not to understand, you don't really need to.

First, thank you all for your insights and thoughts. Secondly, Two, you are too FUNNY! I don't know how much faith I have in this matter. LOL!

I definitely am trying to understand it. I know some of you mentioned that she would still be a lesbian, but as she told me, one of her issues will be being mistaken for straight. In her words, she doesn't want that. Also, she is sexually attracted to women, and being honest, isn't that type of attraction important?

My nieces joke with me about "going to the mountain" when they come to me for advice/thoughts. Albeit, at times a quite conservative mountain.  Regardless, this time I need a few shots of tequila and having you all in a group setting as we discuss.

 

Two*True

nevr2amazin:

 Also, she is sexually attracted to women, and being honest, isn't that type of attraction important?

 

IMO, absolutely! But I'm also one of the few people that has openly said I'm not sure I would/could stay in a sexless relationship.  

nevr2amazin

Two*True:

nevr2amazin:

 Also, she is sexually attracted to women, and being honest, isn't that type of attraction important?

 

IMO, absolutely! But I'm also one of the few people that has openly said I'm not sure I would/could stay in a sexless relationship.  

Nor I...there would have to be extenuating circumstances (i.e. medical).

ctbride08

nevr2amazin:

Also, she is sexually attracted to women, and being honest, isn't that type of attraction important?

Sure its important, but its not something that you have to worry about.

I totally get that you aren't someone to sit back and say "well, its your life!" - but at a certain point it might be okay to say, "I trust you to make the right decision for you."