Update after 4month visit to pedi
mcatmay
member
Thought i should give you all an update since you've been dealing with all my angst surrounding the little girl ;-)
First of all, for her weight check - she went from 45% percentile to 21% and the pediatrician is not worried. He said we'll see what she does at her 6 month appointment but that she's happy, healthy and growing well so to just keep on keeping on. He didn't tell me to step away from the scale but i think it might have been implied ;-)
Then about sleep - you ladies are in for a shocker. He told me to CIO. He said she was old enough to, that Weissbluth had done all the research and that once i was emotionally ready to do it, i should just do it. I don't know how i feel about this. I'm going to take the next week to think about it and to try to cut down her nursing at night - if we do it, i don't want her to suffer from hunger pangs on top of everything. I'm going to talk to DH about it and we'll go from there.
She got vaccinated, despite her cold/fever the night before last. I think he's on the 'tough love' boat of life. He's got two toddlers so i figure that he's done it, he knows what he's talking about but ugh. He does not believe in sugarcoating things - he flat out told me about CIO, "you're going to be emotionally traumatized. Get a video monitor so that you can see her and not feel like she's dying. It'll be incredibly hard for you but know that you're doing a service to your DD by letting her learn how to fall asleep without you around".
I feel like the pendulum just swung in the opposite direction with our pediatrician - we went from 'anything goes' to 'it's time to grow up, little girl' all in one appointment.
Re: Update after 4month visit to pedi
personally, I would NEVER CIO a 4mo old! Per our pedi, eBFed babies may need to wake up and eat upto 9mo of age, and if it wasn't that, I still think at 4mo old she's way too young
good luck w/ whatever you decide!
first, congrats on the growing, thriving little girl! second, our pedi (who was recommended by other bumpies) also suggested CIO early on, but for very brief periods of time, a couple of minutes tops and making sure to put LO down drowsy but awake whenever possible. He said some babies take to it right away, others don't - try it one day and if it doesn't work after a few minutes, try again next week.
That said, he never said or implied to not respond if DS was hungry, which I don't think your pedi did either. I think rather than focusing on eliminating night waking at all (I agree with sofka that she will still likely nurse at night for a few more months at least), you can work to cut down the night wakings a bit, so you're feeding maybe 2 or 3 times between her bedtime and wakeup time. We did this by having DH respond to DS when it had been less than 4 hours since his last feeding since we knew DS was capable of going that long as he did it often during the day - the pedi also said DS would eat more during the day if he didn't get it at night.
We did a lot of "drowsy but awake" and it worked great for naps but not so much for bed - we still nurse to sleep and I'm ok with that. We did Feber around 5/6 months when DS would wake up as I put him in the crib and yell - it was clear he just wanted to be held so we knew it was time. We also knew he was totally capable of putting himself to sleep as he did during naps. After 2-3 days of Ferber DS goes to sleep easily, and can put himself back to sleep quickly when he wakes up during the night.
sorry for the long post! in the end, hear your pedi out, but do what you feel is best - you and DH know your LO better than anyone.
Um, have you considered a different pedi? He seems harsh, and if you're not comfortable with his suggestions I would look elsewhere.
I agree with Sofka, I wouldn't CIO a 4-month-old. Weissbluth himself says BFed babies can sometimes need to eat during the night until 9 months, and I didn't feel comfortable CIO before then, especially because J was so small when he was born and I had a complex about him eating enough (I actually did it way later, but only because I'm a big dumb wimp).
TTC #2: BFP 12/17/11, m/c 1/7/12 and D&C 1/12/12
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Just because your pediatrician thinks she's ready for CIO doesn't mean that she is - you live with her and know her signals and any routine and such. Definitely don't do it if you have any reservations, because if doing something as a parent makes you "emotionally traumatized," imagine what your DD will be going through. Like you said, take some time to think about it, try it out in bits and pieces if you want, and make sure you and your DH are on the same page.
FWIW, I *really wanted* to CIO with my DD at 4 months. But I knew she wasn't ready. If I'd tried with either kid at that age, it would have been a disaster. They were both ready for a modified Ferber between 6-7 months old, and within three relatively easy nights, they were both STTN (though waking up once a night to nurse).
We had a pediatrician (assigned by a military clinic) who was pretty "tough love" like yours, and also had two young children, and I thought that was refreshing. Now, looking back on it, his approach was not ideal. He told us to start rice cereal at 4 months (so we did; we did things differently for DS1), didn't tell us about her heart murmur until she was a year old (because he didn't want us to "worry over nothing"), and clearly advocated CIO. He also brushed me off when I told him about her extreme fussiness and obvious gas/spit-up/reflux-type issues, telling me that "babies will cry" and hinting that I was a paranoid new mom. So... your post, while it wasn't meant to, raised some red flags for me. If you feel that he's a good match for your family and gives you the balancing perspective that you need, then that's great. But if he's telling you things that don't sit right with your gut feelings, take everything he says with a grain of salt.
BTW, all my kids were above the 90th percentile in weight at birth, and by six months were closer to average, and by the time they were one year old were average-to-small (and perfectly healthy all the while). Don't let scales worry you
Hmm, I know that technically you can start CIO at 4 months, but I don't know that I would do it for a 4 month old. But I would probably cut down the number of feedings - like have your DH go in if it's been less than XX hours (whatever you are comfortable with).
However, take my advice with a grain of salt. I've never Ferbered and I have an almost 15 month old, who used to be the world's best sleeper, but now wakes up every 2-2.5 hours and has for the last month. I'm too chicken to Feber because I'm pretty sure that a lot of it is related to all her molars and eye teeth coming in all at once and once she gets going she is so loud (and she cries out mama, mama, mama which is just so sad). My magic boobs make it all better, but dang it, I'm tired. Tonight DH has agreed to take over all baby duty. Ha, that just means I'll be up listening to her cry from another room.
ETA: As for the percentiles - DD2 was born in the 90% and has dropped fairly consistently and is now in the 50% (at 15 months). I think it's pretty common and definitely not something to worry about. DD1 also dropped from 75% and is now in the 15-25% (at 3). I think as long as they are happy, eat well and meet their milestones most pedis don't worry too much.
Our pedi told us to do it at 6 months. But I wasn't ready. We eventually Ferbered at 8 months and I'm comfortable with the fact that we tried other methods first. Honestly, I really hated ferbering him and it took forever for him to go to bed without lots of tears. I don't want to do it again so I'm going to try some different methods from the very beginning.
Don't do it until you are ready. I would never CIO at 4 months. Not a chance.
Off to the beach
DS 7/18/2010
Handy 2.0 Due Early August
2011/2012 Races
12/17/2011 Christmas Caper 10K
2/11/2012 Have a Heart 5K
3/17/2012 DC RNR Half Marathon
4/22/2012 10M Parkway Classic
10/28/2012 Marine Corps Marathon
To give another perspective....
With my daughter, we dealt with her hideous, up 2-5 times a night sleep until she was a year old and at our wits end. By the time she was a year old, we were all a wreck, did some sleep training, and she is now a fabulous sleeper. We were hesitant to do any training before, because she had terrible full body eczema which had her scratching constantly, and we thought she was probably genuinely uncomfortable.
With our son, he was a decent newborn sleeper, but his sleep started going downhill around 3.5 months, and was progressively getting worse by his 4 month appt (when he was 4.5 mo old). He was super easy to soothe when I went in, but didn't eat much, and it was clear his waking was just becoming a habit. My pedi recommended sleep training at that point, his reasoning that if he was becoming a better sleeper on his own that was one thing. But, waking more often at that point indicated that he wasn't able to self-soothe. He also said sleep training is easier on the baby and the parents when they are younger. While I know that people will cite a lot of research against sleep training this early, we trust our pedi, and decided to take his advice, and try it. It took us 3 days, and now my son sleeps 12+ hours a night and takes 2 good naps. He is an amazing sleeper. And I am a better mom since I am well rested and able to give my all to my 2 kids all day.
And, both kids are EBF. My daughter was always above 50% and my son is in the 90%.
I know it's not for everyone, but it worked for us. And I don't think my child feels any less attached or attended to because of it.
i think it's more of a you thinking you're ready to give it a try vs. your kid being ready.
we started doing ferber when sprout was 5.5mon old. he was waking up every 3 hours. we still kept 1-2 feedings/night, but he had to put himself to sleep. it was a total lifesaver for us.
I cant' imagine Ferbering or letting a 4-month old CIO. They are still so little and likely going through a sleep regression at that age anyway that it just doesn't seem right. My kids slept pretty well until they were 4 months old and then all hell broke loose. DD was only up a few times each night but DS was up 15-20 times per night, every night for a while, and this was all while I was going back to work. It was hellacious.
Even with all that, we felt he was just too little before 5 months to try any sleep training beyond a really good schedule during the day and a good bedtime routine. At 5.5 months, we Ferbered, but it didn't work at all. We weren't ready to listen to him cry for more than a minute or two and even when we did buckle down and do Ferber right, it didn't help. DS just wasn't ready.
Finally, at 7 months, we tried Ferber again and it cut down the night wakings significantly and really helped. DS was ready and mature enough for it at that point. And then at 8 months, both him and DD started STTN.
I really do think it depends on your kid. For us, it was obvious with my son that he just couldn't get back to sleep on his own without a little boob. It would take less than 5 min of comfort nursing to get him back down, and then at the next sleep cycle (or earlier) we'd repeat. We also had the benefit of this being our 2nd kid, so we felt more comfortable with everything. You also have to be able to tolerate the crying to give it a real try. Sleep training doesn't work at all if the parents give in -- I think it puts you back to square one (or worse).
Another thing to consider is where your baby is sleeping right now. Some of my friends had more trouble sleep training because their child was still in the parents' room, or had just moved to their own crib. My son was in his crib beginning at 6 wks old, so by the time we did sleep training, he was already comfortable in his environment. I wouldn't try to move him out and get him to sleep all night at once. I also don't know how well sleep traning works if you are still in the room together -- I think the babies seem to know that and want you even more. But, I'm no expert -- that's just my guess.
I think you also need to use common sense.... we started early, at just before 5 months. If it hadn't worked as fast as it did, we'd probably have stopped and figured he wasn't ready. I wouldn't let crying go on for hours, or for weeks, just to do sleep training. As with everything in parenting -- go with your gut. It's usually right.
Well said. I totally agree with this!
I agree it's when you're ready. But it really depends on where your kid is at. Up 1-2 a night at 4 months is not something I would worry about it. When DS was 7months and he was up 3-4 times a night on a good night, I was done. DH and I were both exhausted and desperate for a solution.
You don't have to make up your mind now.
Off to the beach
DS 7/18/2010
Handy 2.0 Due Early August
2011/2012 Races
12/17/2011 Christmas Caper 10K
2/11/2012 Have a Heart 5K
3/17/2012 DC RNR Half Marathon
4/22/2012 10M Parkway Classic
10/28/2012 Marine Corps Marathon
kafunder made an excellent point - many babies, including both of mine, go thru the 4-mo wakeful period
Thanks for the other point of view, VML. I'm not sure what i'm going to do - i've been doing research all day and essentially, i'm leaving the decision to 'sometime after the holidays' since there's no way i'm going to do this to the little girl while her schedule is upside down from the holidays.
Sofka, i think we may have already gone through the 4mw a bit early. She certainly was up and excited to see the world for a little while. Right now, she, perversely, is sleeping better (for the past two nights) but i really think it was because she had a virus and a fever. Today she received her vaccines, so she's been sleeping all day. We'll see what tonight brings.
As for Wines' point, it's a good one - i know every kid is different and is ready at different points. I do think, however, much like VML, the little girl is starting to develop a habit to mom because the past week she was waking up every.hour. It was a bad week.
As you can all tell, i remain hugely conflicted about all of this. Any other points of view are welcome as i'm going to keep reading and just make sure that i don't emotionally traumatize my child. On the one hand, she's so little but on the other hand, mom will not be able to function at work if she's getting no sleep at all.
If you properly ferber or similar after the holidays (when I assume she'll be 4.5-5mon old) there's no way you'll be causing permanent emotional damage that will require years of therapy to undo. I promise. It's far more likely saying "I love you, honey pie!!!" a little too loud as you drop her off in 8th grade will be vastly more emotionally scarring.
From the past few posts, I kinda get the vibe that you're worried you'll mess up your kid. I to a certain extent I can understand it, but seriously...you're a good mom. No one is going to be perfect & we ALL make mistakes (which, btw, aren't going to mess up our kids forever). I mean, confession: I yelled at Sprout today. Not my finest moment, but there you have it. And, this is likely flameful, but we've already started doing time outs (1 minute).
My advice is after the holidays, see where you're at. If she's getting up a gazillion times/night. Give Ferber (or similar) a try one night. See how it goes. If you find you're not ready, stop. If you sense she's not ready, stop. You really don't need to stress over this. I promise. I say this as someone that is currently in therapy b/c of scarring things that happened in her childhood, I can 100% say that sleep training or a parent being paralyzed with concern when I wasn't feeling good aren't the sort of things that are requiring weekly visits to the shrink.
To me 4 months seemed really, really early, and our pedi didn't even bring up CIO at the 4-month appointment. I think LO was waking up 1-3 times a night then, and our pedi said that was normal and did I think his sleep was improving, I said yes, and she said good, we can talk more about it at 6 months. Actually, he was still in our room until about 4 or 5 months
We didn't do ferber until closer to 8 months. I wasn't ready and I don't think LO was ready.
Kastle, thanks for the encouragement. I DO stress an obsessive amount about 'doing things right'. I KNOW there's no perfect way and that what works for one kiddo won't work for the other but i come to you ladies for guidance because you've been through it and you have ideas i haven't thought of. I value the input.
I think that i'm going to wait until after the holidays and see where she's at - if we're still waking up a ridiculous amount of times, we'll do SOMETHING - what that is is still not set in stone but i'm in 'data gathering' mode ;-)
Thank you for the kind words, though - you're right, i need to relax about all of this just a little bit.
I think we all were once in your place. I mean, being in charge of a little person can be kind of terrifying! But they don't break easily. And, like I said, you're doing really well. Have confidence in yourself! You're a good mom!
Good luck with the sleep issues.
THIS. Reed's sleeping went to crap at 4 months and my ped said to just ride it out, don't even think about letting him cry until at least 6 months. I just survived, let him sleep next to me and nursed on demand. It sucks but it will get better down the road, I think 4 months is a little too young to CIO.