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Adoption
Dr.Loretta
member
Another potentially HT post
Dr.Loretta
member
in Adoption
Is it just me, or was today a day that adoptees with negative adoption experiences came out of the woodwork? Are you guys regular lurkers on the board? If not, how did you find it? Are you willing to share your stories?
I'm probably opening up a can of worms, but I'm genuinely interested in all sorts of adoption experiences and would like to know your stories better.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Another potentially HT post
I was wondering the same thing. I was actually just going to do a post where those of us that are APs could maybe tell them a little about how we feel about our children and how they came to us. I haven't because I thought it might be too sensitive a topic. I'm sad that anyone would ever feel, or be made to feel, settled for.
I'm curious, too. I know I'm not alone in wishing you would stay and add consistent input to our discussions. It's only when we are open to all sides of the triad that we can begin to understand all the effects of adoption. Knowing your impressions can help me be a better parent to my children, and I'd love to hear your side of things!
Dr.L. I'm a member of a group on yahoo that is primarily made up of adults who were adopted as children, along with some adoptive parents and prospective adoptive parents. The group is designed as a safe place for the adopted adults to share their feelings about being adopted and to talk about what their parents, and society in general, could have done better. It's a hard board to be on, and I don't think many adoptive parents hang around it too much/long, because it can be really harsh.
The group is called International-Adopt Talk: https://groups.yahoo.com/group/International-Adopt-Talk/.
I believe that while we have a lot to learn from children and adults who were adopted, many who were adopted in closed or questionable adoptions of the past may have experienced traumas or difficulties as a result of being adopted that many children adopted nowadays to not experience. This belief of mine is not necessarily shared by the active posters on that board.
I have had a few head scratching moments last year with angry adoptees. I attended a support group for the adoption triad. While some of the people were happy and helpful, there was so much anger. It actually scared me to be an adoptive mom. I finally came to the realization, as with many things, those with the strongest voice (i.e. people who have bad adoption experiences) are more likely to be loud and be heard that people with happy experience.
While I missed the thread that may have launched this HT, I think keeping perspective and keeping aware that there's negative sides to adoption will make me a better a-mom.
This is interesting. Are you comfortable sharing any of these opinions/situations? I would love to hear it.
same here..... the negative stories of adoption will help us learn from the mistakes of others.
I'm an adult adoptee and hoping to become more of a regular here, since we are now in the process of adopting. I had a very positive adoption experience, but since it was of the old-school closed variety can't usually be of much help on the board.
Just wanted to post as a reminder that not all adoptees grow up to be bitter!
Thank you for the invite... I hope and I'm sure others will join in.
I wasn't able to get back on last night to see where the deleted thread ended up... just to point out there is a lot of "political incorrectness" going on in regards to adoptees. It wasn't only the OP who stated something inappropriately; it was also the one who called her on it! Dr. Loretta, you said something to the effect of "taking a stranger" into your lives and home versus other options. As an adoptee, I take great offense to this remark, because in saying so, you were no better than she! I am aware of what you likely meant to convey, but I for one and I'm sure other adoptees are acutely focused on wording, and the average adoptee reading would think, "if that's how you feel, why adopt?"
Why? Adoption is supposed to be about US, not about YOU. If anything, it is because you want to give to a child, NOT because you want a baby. Because 9 times out of 10, it's like "wanting a kitten" and when the cat later develops its own personality, suddenly it's not all it's cracked up to be. It starts behaving in undesirable ways you didn't quite expect.
And the bar is generally set higher for us in terms of living up to expectations.
Many of us are forced into molds we cannot hope to fill.Many of us are told we should be "grateful". For what? Being adopted? Believe me, I would rather have been aborted than not know my roots! Is it our fault we're here?
My heritage is the one thing you can neither give me, nor take from me. It is my birthright, it is part of who I am. We are a package deal!
To deny me this, is to obliterate my sense of self and sentence me to a life of awkwardness; never fitting in; different from everyone else. Solely for the fact of being adopted. I and others believe that our original birth certificates should not be withheld nor changed. We are people, not merchandise. The minute our names are changed and our true identities hidden, we become two people. For life. Forever children. All because SOMEone "wanted a baby" to play house.
I also resent being written off as "bitter". I call it out and out PAIN. Of the mind-blowing, gut-wrenching, soul-ripping kind. Only another adoptee can understand this. Is anyone keeping any TOP LEVEL SECRETS from YOU?
Au contraire... no, it's very easy for non-adoptees to go back how many generations to learn of their ancestors?
If adoptees feel this way, imagine how children of sperm donors feel. Disgusting! To think that human beings are subject to the selfish whims of those who would be parents. My own experience was devastating. There's a reason some people can't reproduce, and it's the same reason they shouldn't adopt, either.
And for many of us, don't even dream of mentioning you're searching! You'll get a reaction that ranges in anything from a good bawling out to disinheritance!
I don't mean everyone is like that, but wish people would be more aware of our feelings in this.
I'm not anti-adoption as far as children whose parents are dead or dangerous, but I am definitely, vehemently against secrets, lies and hypocrisy. No one has the right to walk away from a life that they created, unidentified. You may be unaccountable; you may be unfit; you may be uninterested; but NOT unidentified!
If adoption really IS all about the child... then guardianship should become the norm. Those who are sincere won't have a problem with this.
Whoever said, "our children are LENT to us" certainly wasn't referring to adoptees. We are more often than not treated as property.
I have much more to say, so I'll close for now but just want to point out I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad, just how it feels from our POV.
Thank you for the invite... I hope and I'm sure others will join in.
I wasn't able to get back on last night to see where the deleted thread ended up... just to point out there is a lot of "political incorrectness" going on in regards to adoptees. It wasn't only the OP who stated something inappropriately; it was also the one who called her on it! Dr. Loretta, you said something to the effect of "taking a stranger" into your lives and home versus other options. As an adoptee, I take great offense to this remark, because in saying so, you were no better than she! I am aware of what you likely meant to convey, but I for one and I'm sure other adoptees are acutely focused on wording, and the average adoptee reading would think, "if that's how you feel, why adopt?"
Why? Adoption is supposed to be about US, not about YOU. If anything, it is because you want to give to a child, NOT because you want a baby. Because 9 times out of 10, it's like "wanting a kitten" and when the cat later develops its own personality, suddenly it's not all it's cracked up to be. It starts behaving in undesirable ways you didn't quite expect.
And the bar is generally set higher for us in terms of living up to expectations.
Many of us are forced into molds we cannot hope to fill.Many of us are told we should be "grateful". For what? Being adopted? Believe me, I would rather have been aborted than not know my roots! Is it our fault we're here?
My heritage is the one thing you can neither give me, nor take from me. It is my birthright, it is part of who I am. We are a package deal!
To deny me this, is to obliterate my sense of self and sentence me to a life of awkwardness; never fitting in; different from everyone else. Solely for the fact of being adopted. I and others believe that our original birth certificates should not be withheld nor changed. We are people, not merchandise. The minute our names are changed and our true identities hidden, we become two people. For life. Forever children. All because SOMEone "wanted a baby" to play house.
I also resent being written off as "bitter". I call it out and out PAIN. Of the mind-blowing, gut-wrenching, soul-ripping kind. Only another adoptee can understand this. Is anyone keeping any TOP LEVEL SECRETS from YOU?
Au contraire... no, it's very easy for non-adoptees to go back how many generations to learn of their ancestors?
If adoptees feel this way, imagine how children of sperm donors feel. Disgusting! To think that human beings are subject to the selfish whims of those who would be parents. My own experience was devastating. There's a reason some people can't reproduce, and it's the same reason they shouldn't adopt, either.
And for many of us, don't even dream of mentioning you're searching! You'll get a reaction that ranges in anything from a good bawling out to disinheritance!
I don't mean everyone is like that, but wish people would be more aware of our feelings in this.
I'm not anti-adoption as far as children whose parents are dead or dangerous, but I am definitely, vehemently against secrets, lies and hypocrisy. No one has the right to walk away from a life that they created, unidentified. You may be unaccountable; you may be unfit; you may be uninterested; but NOT unidentified!
If adoption really IS all about the child... then guardianship should become the norm. Those who are sincere won't have a problem with this.
Whoever said, "our children are LENT to us" certainly wasn't referring to adoptees. We are more often than not treated as property.
I have much more to say, so I'll close for now but just want to point out I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad, just how it feels from our POV.
You had my attention and sympathy (despite the misguidedness of your arguments -- none of us are lying to our children, almost everyone on this board is in at least a semi-open adoption and everyone is a proponent of open adoption that I'm aware of)...until I got to the highlghted. You're being ridiculous and I'm sorry, but yes, I do think that you are bitter. You've had a bad adoption situation and I feel terribly for you. It's not fair. Everyone should have the opportunity to know where they come from. But that doesn't give you the right to be hateful to other people and intentionally say hurtful things.
Jesus was adopted. I believe that we are all adopted children of our Father. Adoption has been around for a long time, both informally and formally. The heart of it has not changed. It has been exploited by people on all sides at various times, but we have come a long way from that (and still have a long way to go) and quite frankly, I take offense at the way you are speaking to us. Respect gets respect.
We would love for you to hang around if you're as interested in learning from us, as we are from you. I hope we can show you how we have all worked very hard NOT to be the same as your parents. But my guess is that you're a pot stirrer and don't care about how any of our situations are different from your own.
Well, your guess would be wrong... First off, I've only known about this board for roughly 24 hours. I am still finding my way around here. Respect? A post was made here that was grossly offensive, not only to adoptees. If you had read the thread you know what I'm referring to. It doesn't take long for things to circulate on the net, as I'm sure you're aware.
"Almost" everyone is in an open adoption? Well it's the "almost" I would be directing comments to, then... I have no issue with open adoption. What do you mean when you say "not lying to your children"...? How much do they know?
Does their new birth certificate have their original name on it? Some parents do recognize that their child comes with an identity. I'd like to know, how many have never changed it? Just trying to raise awareness, not spewing venom.
When you say we have come a long way and still have a long way to go... that adoption has been exploited on all sides. I'd just like to know, how exactly has adoption been exploited by the adoptee? And you are right, we still have a long way to go, but to this day very few states have open records, so I don't know how far you can say we've come...
I apologize if my final paragraph wasn't CLEAR about how what I wrote wasn't directed at anyone here. I was in a rush, hence, the double posting as well.
I simply made a statement that yes, some people shouldn't be anywhere NEAR children. This is a fact. I don't know why you felt it was directed at you. Thank God my ex never had sons!
A question was asked about the feelings of adoptees. Let me try to put it another way. "An atmosphere of openness and honesty is favorable for an adopted child to flourish and reach their full potential." Better?
Let me ask you... who does sealed records benefit? The vital stats office? No, we're just a number collecting dust in a filing cabinet... the birthmother...? No... only 5% of them don't want to be found... the child? No, only 5% of them don't want to be found, either... who's left...? The only ones who would prefer if this never had to be disclosed.
Jesus was adopted...? Jesus is God! Look, I'm as fundie Christian as it gets. But, no God of mine condones secrets and lies!
Time and again, someone tries to say this, yet all miss one very HUGE point: yeah, but we KNOW who the FATHER is!
In fact, let's not forget that Moses' own mother ended up nursing him when Pharaoh's daughter took him from the water. That alone speaks volumes.God is just. And I love Him!
Which brings me to the point of so-called Christian adoption agencies. Closed adoption and Christian cannot be used in the same sentence. 'Nuff said.
Again, it's not adoption that has me upset... it's the legalized lies surrounding it.
I'm sorry, but I was only presenting my feelings as can only be perceived by me, and others like me. Trying to find anyone who empathizes with how many of us feel is virtually impossible. And you know, I get that, because after all, how do you describe an intangible void in your soul? There are few words. Non-adoptees don't have it, because your answers are waiting for you whenever you want them. The whole point of my post was completely overlooked.When I said adoption had been exploited on all sides, I meant by agencies, attorneys, facilitators (or anyone looking to make a buck), adoptive families, birth families, etc. Obviously no one is accusing adoptees of exploiting adoptions. I didn't say by the "triad."
We've had the birth certificate discussion here. I'm sure someone can dig up the post for you if you want to read through the responses. They were thought-provoking and the general consensus was there is no right answer. Some adoptees want the privacy of their "new" name. Some don't. We all pretty much agreed we understood the reason for changing birth certificates (birth parent privacy and adoptee privacy), but all disagreed with adoptees not having access to their birth records in every state (they do in mine, thankfully).
You keep referencing all of these lies, but none of us are lying to our children. We're not hiding their pasts from them. My daughter will have access to every adoption document we have. We are on a first and last name basis with her birth mother. We know birthdates, addresses, siblings names/birthdates. All of this information is dear to us and we treasure it. It doesn't seem like you're telling us about the lies you've been told, but accusing US of telling lies to our children...like you're on a mission to educate us. And that's fine...but hang out and lurk awhile and give us the benefit of the doubt because NONE of us here condone the "legalized lies" you're referring to. I am not aware of a single regular poster here who is a proponent of closed adoption (there are a few who are in them, but it was the birthmother who chose or they are foster/adopt). And if you had seen the deleted post before it disappeared, that poster got flamed to high heaven and back for her ignorance...she kept coming back and digging her hole deeper and deeper.
We do want to know your experience as an adoptee, but all we've heard is you asking us questions (have we been lied to, have we experienced your pain, do we believe such and such) and spouting statistics. We want to know YOUR STORY and why you hurt, so we can learn from it. We've heard the statistics. We've read the books. We've been to the seminars. But what we experienced yesterday were several adoptees who had never posted here before, jumping into a post stating that they were hurting/unhappy, and then leaving with no explanation. Dr. L's post/question here is asking you to share your story and why you are hurt/unhappy. Not generalities about adoption past or present, not statistics, but your own personal story. We want to know who you are. Dr. L directed three questions to adoptees in her original post and you've yet to answer one of them.
Are you guys regular lurkers on the board?
If not, how did you find it?
Are you willing to share your stories?
"I simply made a statement that yes, some people shouldn't be anywhere NEAR children. This is a fact. I don't know why you felt it was directed at you. Thank God my ex never had sons!"
THIS would be why I have two sons that I adopted through foster care because their birthmother shouldn't be anywhere NEAR children, and THAT is a fact. Their adoptions are absolutely closed. I don't believe my sons need to be actively involved with a woman that put their lives in danger before they were even born, even if it was just pictures. She refused to see my second son when he was born, not because she was emotional, but because she simply did not want him. If they choose to know all of their history, we have 1500 page documents that they may read when they are old enough to thoroughly understand what it all means.
Birth certificates don't have to be changed, true. But most adoptive parents want to name their children the names they've chosen and in that instance is when things get changed. We changed all 3 of our children's names all for safety reasons.
Even if we (my husband and I) chose to "lie" to our children about their adoptions, they'd clearly have questions as my husband and I are extremely tall and chances of them being tall is slim. They'll wonder why they're shorties amongst giants. Families based on lies are clearly not a good idea, and not a real family.
This board is full of many different adoptions - domestic newborn adoption, international adoption and foster care adoption. You need to be be careful when you start generalizing and trying to "speak" for adoptees.
double, triple and quadruple ditto.
If we'd kept the name on our daughter's original birth certificate, she would go to school as Baby Girl D********. Her birthmom didn't name her.
We are on a first and last name basis with our daughter's birthdad, and more recently her birthmom, her three brothers and both extended families. They have our address and our phone numbers, they come to her birthday parties if they're available and they call us to talk when they feel like it. We have their pictures on her wall, we talk about adoption and her past all the time, even though she's too little to understand. We try incredibly hard to live our lives morally and honestly, and being honest and open with our daughter is part of that.
I'm sorry that your experience wasn't a good one, but please don't paint all adoptive parents with the same brush.
And to be honest, adopting because you want to save a child is a crappy reason to adopt. There are a lot of easier, cheaper and less labor-intensive ways to be a philanthropist. Adoption should be to build a family, nothing else.
Auburn, I don't feel sorry for her. I'm sorry she apparently had a bad experience, but I DO think she's a bitter adoptee and needs to seek some therapy.
And just for the record - Jesus is NOT God. If you were such a Christian you would recall the Trinity - The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.
And done ...
From top down:
Dr. L: 1. No, just found the board yesterday.
2. Just reading up on adoption.
3. Will do so at the end of this post.
CaptainSerious: I love you.
silliestbunny: I'm really glad to read you were exposed to that meeting... you and your child can benefit from it. The point is not who had a good or bad experience, the point is all adoptees should be able to access their rights, whether they choose to exercise them or not. If the adoptee had a happy experience, great. But, not every adoptee searches because they were unhappy. If that's the message conveyed, I'm sorry. Because it's not the case. Some search simply because of an innate need to know, among other things.
stargazer... what can I say? Your second paragraph in your first post summed it up perfectly. I'm sure we'll be reading more of each other.
casttostrangers: Yes, and I understand.
MamaB2009: I really would like to see the discussion on birth certificates. Since I am new to the boards, perhaps as you say someone can point it out.
Again, perhaps you missed the parts of my posts where I tried to reiterate that I was not pointing out anyone here, nor do I speak for all adoptees. To be frank, there are enormous groups of us, who feel the same. While I don't speak FOR them, I can tell you that we all share identical feelings, for different reasons and circumstances, but the common denominator is adoption.
But we were adopted under a system that was/is abusive in itself. I am happy to see that attitudes are changing! It's wonderful that this group appears to be so supportive of their childrens' origins! Granted, this is your board, and some ended up here because of yet another thing that should never happen. (The original thread)
mamatojts: Great. As I said, unless the parents are dead or dangerous. 1500 pages, eh? I only got a few measly paragraphs. As for changing a child's name just because the ap doesn't like the one they came with, is not a great reason, because identities are born, not made. We are who we are. Safety reasons, fine. It's still an alias, legally sanctioned or otherwise. Access later... absolutely. When we become adults, it is no longer the ap's decision.
Finally, again, not once did I ever claim to speak for ALL adoptees... but we are many who feel likewise. I can appreciate this is a very emotional issue for adoptive parents. I do understand that abuse is not exclusive to adoptive families, good heavens... but, the fact that it does happen to some, who are supposedly so wanted, makes it that much more hurtful and confusing...you know, maybe that's key... a double whammy so to speak. An initial rejection, followed by a life of abuse from those who had pledged to love. Mixed messages. Something few can grasp unless they've experienced it.
stargazer: 1. Not just me. A lot of us feel we would have preferred this than the inner turmoil we experience as adopted adults, and continue to have the doors to access slammed in our face.
. 2. Caucasian & Caucasian. You seem like a nice person, and I'm glad you're so well adjusted and are fully aware of your origins. But I have news for you. You're not Native American by adoption, just like I wouldn't be (any other race) by adoption. Good grief! This is what we mean.
3. Who am I talking about? No one on this board. What did I mean? Adoptive parents who are emotionally damaged/dysfunctional themselves in some way. These slip through the system, and think that having a baby will solve their problems, fix their marriage, whatever. (If you don't agree, pick up a newspaper. Current events are full of adoption horror stories.) They adopt for the wrong reasons, and lack maternal instinct.
4. With all due respect, inside you DO understand, and of course, not for you, but for me, anyone who mentions "GRATEFUL" is brainwashed. Oliver Twist was expected to be grateful also. It's the thing most mentioned and often despised and resented by MOST adoptees. Now I see that I'm wasting my day for nothing.The word grateful, to an adoptee who some would label UNgrateful- is extremely inappropriate- no child should have to be "grateful" for ANYthing. Your adoptive parents are your parents... so are mine. Once I became an adult, we liked each other more... but the most vulnerable years of my life were a nightmare.
Have I been reunited? Yes! I have 3 brothers and 3 sisters on my birthmother's side. Any idea what that means to me? How I treasure them? Should I have respected my parents' wishes not to search when, when their lives were over I'd have no one? I DID respect their wishes, for far too many years. I have nieces and nephews I never saw grow up. Am I wrong?
Ok, so why am I still complaining? Because my birthmother was adopted too. And I truly feel that if she wasn't, that would have been enough for me. But now there are more questions I need answered, and that's the info I can't get. Plus, I'm told I have 3 more brothers on my father's side, and I can't get that information either. Folks, this is my business!
I'm trying to stay on topic here, and as per the original request, you're getting bits of my story as I go along. Please bear with. I'm almost done.
5. "Selfish whims" was referring mainly to the sperm donor remark. Personally, I think sperm banks should be closed, and their contents flushed down the toilet. Such birthing circumstances are dehumanizing, and IMO is JUST like going to Walmart. We become merchandise instead of people. Just because something is technologically possible, does that make it ethical?
I'm sorry your mother went through that, but again, someone I know went through the same thing, then adopted, but really should not have. Why? She had deep emotional issues; her husband was bipolar; they divorced; the child had no boundaries; ran around with 25 year olds from the age of 12; had a baby. It really depends on the individual.
jermysgirl: I didn't think I had to state the obvious. Of course, no one would leave a child nameless.
And I never said all adoptive parents,
neither all adoptees. I speak only for myself, but do know and interact
with many others who feel the same. What you describe is wonderful and
healthy. And I didn't mean "save" a child... I said "give to" a child.
Meaning, love to give.
-------- to sum up:
All this to say, that the old way of doing things made mortal enemies of birthparents and adoptive parents. This is unfortunate, and the child was the one who got hurt by it. Things are changing, albeit slowly, and the fact that you are even interested and open to learning about/discussing it says what cool people you are! I'm glad those that can have welcomed them into your lives.The rest of my story in a nutshell, since I've revealed quite a bit already:
No attention, no childhood, no hugs, no interaction, no activities, no pretty clothes, parents were big entertainers, grandmother lived with us, much older people, sexually molested from age 11 till I became interested in boys. Told mother, she blamed me, got pregnant at 17, left home, most definitely kept my child.
Got to run... will elaborate later or answer any other questions if anyone wants.
Peace, everyone.
If my child has always been called by the name I gave them, changed it on their birth certificate because *I* am their mother, it's not an alias, it's their name.
Sorry you didn't have "pretty clothes".
Maytriarch,
We have LOTS in common. I would love to share my story but as I said before I fell for DrL's "but I'm genuinely interested in all sorts of adoption experiences and would like to know your stories better." when I first join under an old account. That was the 1st and last time I ever on any web site told my whole story.
Have you noticed that the Apars with the strongest views scold us and shake their finger at us as adoptees when their own children are still very young. Heck if you add them together you dont even come up with a 10 year old. " HMMM would I like to learn from someone who LIVED it or would I like to learn from someone who is not an adoptee but did stay at a holiday in last night? Think I'd rather hear someones truth even if its not my own than what someone who know nothing about living it thinks. Ya ROCK!
Jesus was adopted? By who? I love when Jesus is brought into child adoption.
I am jumping back in late but I feel compelled to add a few thoughts....
1- I am very frustrated with the amount of assumption taken by Matriarch (I know the sp of the screen name is off... sorry). It is the same assumption taken by other anti-adoption bloggers. I am sorry for your bad experiences but do not assume that your voice is one that represents others in that have been adopted. My sister was adopted and it's a closed adoption. She has never had any interested, even at the urging of others, to discover her bio- orgin. I know many others that share her experience.
2- Do I believe open adoption is best? Yes but it's not always possible. My baby girl's birth mom has asked us to keep it closed. I have basic information that I will share but they may never know each other. Her birth mom had planned a safe-haven drop at a firestation but her OB asked her to reconsider and choose her child's adoptive family just days before she was born. My baby girl was going to be born without a family. Yes, open might be better but the situation was going to be closed w/o ANY details whatsoever had she been left at the doorsteps of the fire station. Instead we were able to hold her and love her within two minutes of entering the world. I believe my God would want me to provide the healthiest and happiest home I can for a child that was going to be orphaned by choice. Yes? I believe so.
3- I am saddened that you would have chosen abortion for yourself over adoption. I don't know your situation but I can only assume it was riddled with all sorts of terrible abuses. For that I am sorry. For many children, some whose mothers spoke here, their life with bio parents would have included neglect, sexual abuse, verbal abuse, etc. Sealed or unsealed adoption records, I could never argue for leaving a child in horrible situations in order to keep them united with their orgin. No way.