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Attachment Parenting
Since we're already on the vaxing debate
If you vax, do you have friends that don't? Do you worry that since your LO isn't fully protected (for younger LOs) that they might still get sick?
If you don't vax, do you try to mainly hang out with people who do so your kid is protected?
Just curious how other people handle these things!
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Re: Since we're already on the vaxing debate
I don't know of anyone IRL who doesn't vax, but I'm sure there are some. DH's cousin does not vax her 4 year old, but they live across the country and we've not physically seen them in years.
Honestly I'm not positive what I'd do. If I were aware that someone did not vax their child and I had a LO to young to be vaccinated, I'd probably simply try to see them in social settings that didn't require the kids to be together.
I wouldn't ask anyone specifically if they vax/don't vax, and I wouldn't keep my properly vaxed child away from an otherwise healthy child because that's just fearmongering, IMO.
But I do think I'd draw the line at exposing a non-vaxed newborn or infant to potential danger. It would also depend on the location - are there known outbreaks of things where we are, etc.
it depends on the health of the child - if their kid is healthy, sure. But just like I don't want that head cold you're sporting...
unless it's the chicken pox. and then yes, please.
I don't get why you wouldn't hang out with kids who aren't vaxed because you are afraid of diseases, wouldn't being around kids who are too young to be fully vaxed be just as "risky"? If your letting your child around a six month old who isn't fully vaxed, wouldn't it be more or less the same as being around a 2 year old that isn't vaxed?
Also, I think that many people would be surprised at how many adults are not fully vaccinated. Getting immunized is a lifelong job if you want to be fully protected, though most people don't keep up with it past the school requirements.
Vaccines don't always take. You may not ever know if your kid is actually immune unless you get her titers checked or she comes down with the disease. Many children contract the diseases that they are supposedly inoculated against. Unwittingly being just as "non-vaxed" as the parents who opt out.
Not to mention those who cannot vax due to medical reasons
Like it or not, unless you are living in a bubble your kid has/will come in contact with many, many non-vaxed or not fully vaxed people
I don't vax (with the full support of my pedi). About 50% of my friend group have non-vaxed kids. I would never choose someone as a friend based on if their kid is vaxed, but I tend to have more in common with people who have made similar decisions as us (ie. the non-vaxed crowd). If someone was afraid of us, I wouldn't be interested in being friends with them. I am also not interested in being friends with someone who thinks it's okay to talk down to people who decide not to vax. In my friend group, the ones who don't vax tend to be significantly more educated than the ones who do (on vaccines, health issues and in general). They are not lazy or stupid (and neither am I) and I think it's incredibly rude to classify people like that.
I am not afraid of (most) of the diseases we vax against, in fact I'd like DD to catch some of them so that she'll have a lifelong natural immunity! So, the answer is, as a non-vaxer, I absolutely do not rely on your kids vaccines to do double duty for my kid. Exactly the opposite.
Where we live there is a relatively low vax rate. We had a whooping cough outbreak when DD#1 was about a year old, and I remember a measles outbreak when I was in high school. We have delayed some vax, but I've never worried about who we hang out with based on if they're vaxed or not. I'm more concerned with kids hitting, or using bad words.
DD#2 just got her 2 month shots today, minus the HepB (which we'll do in grade 6, as was done here up until a few years ago).
We followed Dr. Sears' alternate vax schedule and delayed the chicken pox vax until just before DD started pre-school (age 2 & 3 months). We've never gotten DD a flu shot.
I have no idea if my friends with older kids vax on schedule or not, but we didn't get together much for DD to play with those kids until she was well past the newborn stage anyway, simply because we had no real schedule until then.
The area I live in had one of the worst swine flu outbreaks in the US, but it was mostly among school-age children and adults. DD was still home with me or a nanny at the time and breastfeeding (added immunity), so I didn't feel compelled to do anything differently.
I've traveled abroad with DD before she had the chicken pox vax and in places where diseases like dengue fever are more prevalent, for which there is no vax. To protect DD against dengue fever, I just took all the precautions our pedi outlined for us. As far as I know, there wasn't a major chicken pox outbreak anywhere we traveled.
I have opted to put off trips to places with incidences of certain diseases, like yellow fever & malaria, until DD is older and I feel comfortable with her getting a yellow fever shot or taking anti-malaria pills. I don't feel like her system could handle that now, but I don't have any good research to back up my feeling. I'd just rather put those trips off until I've done more research.
Just wanted to back this point up. Apparently, even booster-shot requirements can vary by state. I went to college in a state that literally borders the one where I attended grad school. I had all the required immunizations and booster shots for college, yet when I showed up for grad school, was told I was one booster shot short of the NY state requirements for measles. The option was to either take a titer test to prove I was immune or get the booster shot. I got the titer test and found I was NOT immune to measles. I was 30 years old at the time and had been walking around for at least 10 years thinking I was fully immunized.
Sincerely curious here- why the chicken pox above anything else?
I don't think it matters if we are around kids that are or are not vaxd. The way I see it, Jay would be more likly to cetch a disease form a vaxd child than an unvaxd child. Vaxd children could be carring a disesase that they are not concontracting because of the vaccine.
I have cousins that are not vaccinated and Jay has been around them sence he was a week old. He has also been around vaccinated people.
I do not see unvaccinated children as diseases like some seem to. Children are not any less likely to check something because they only hang around vaccinated children.
In most states children can go to public schools without vaccines. So at some point you will never actually know how many unvaxed kids your child is around.
I read somewhere that DTaP had some of the most severe reactions of all the vaccines. At Jay's 6month check up our pedi tried to say it was the most needed and safest!
Really pushing your luck? What do you think your child will cetch from a group of healthy unvaxd kids?
Just to note: Jay is vaccinated, but I have nothing against people who don't.
It's not different, though. The fact is her child is not vaxed, which puts your vaxed child at risk. It doesn't matter the reasoning behind not vaxing, just that she isn't. So, then, you're choosing not to have your child be around children who are not vaxed b/c their parents chose not to. I don't limit my child's friends only to those whose parents make decisions that I don't think are stupid. I think certain TV shows are completely stupid. And, yes, contribute to violence and just overall stupidity of today's youth. But I would never ask parents if their child is allowed to watch x show b/c if they are they can't play with my child because that is a stupid decision.
I'm not arguing the risk of vaxed children playing w/ non-vaxed children, just that you can't say, "My child is allowed to play with this non-vaxed child b/c she's not vaxed b/c of health reasons." She's still a risk to your child.
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Personally, it's not an issue to me. Micah is up to date w/ his vaccinations (minus rotovirus--pedi doesn't think he needs it since he's not in daycare). I don't have anything against vaccinations as much as I do with pumping my infant up with all kinds of drugs on the off chance that he might catch something. However, my H is a pharmacist and he has explained to me how important they are and how we can do it safely, so we vaccinate.
That being said, I really don't care if you vaccinate or not. I would never choose my friends based on whether or not they vax their kids. I would never even think to ask if their kids are vaxed or not. That's their business. My kid is vaxed so he's protected. And I imagine if I didn't vax than I obviously wouldn't be too concerned about the diseases so I wouldn't care (even those for medical reasons, you're already at a higher risk so being exposed to other non-vaxers doesn't increase your risk so I can't imagine it having any kind of effect).
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There's a slightly higher chance that they're not healthy though, and that a snotty nose could mean something far more serious with those kids. Even though my kid's vaxxed they're not 100% effective,
I'm not the quoted poster, but I said the same thing. Also note that we both said a "large" group of non-vaxxers. I'm not going around asking people if they vaxx their kid! But when there are 20 babies crawling around slobbering all over everything, sticking their hands in their noses and mouths and other kids faces I'm leery if I find out that none of them are vaxxed.
My god, you are misinformed.
The old live cell DPT vaccine was one of the worst for reactions, but the new DTaP is one of the least reactive. I actually had a severe reaction to the old DPT (seizures) & so did my brother, so even though they changed the vaccine we were ultra careful when Ari received it. If it would have been the old live cell vaccine he wouldn't have been able to have it at all, but he was able to have by itself. So we basically ended up having a delayed schedule for the first several months per pedi rec.
If you vax, do you have friends that don't?
I don't know. I don't ask friends if they vax, and they don't ask me. Jack has some of the typical vax - and he doesn't have some of them. New mommy friends have NEVER asked me - nor I them. And if someone did ask me in a "concerned" tone - I'd think they were a giant weirdo.
People only get hot and bothered about this shiiit on the internet. And if I get a hot and bothered response to THAT statement here - well it only proves my point. There are a million crazed vaccination conversations on mommy chat boards world wide web wide.
"You HAVE TO!!"
"No - your kid will BE TOTALLY FRUCKED UP IF YOU VACCINATE!"
"You SUCK!"
"No - YOU SUCK!"
"MORON!"
"IDIOT SHEEP!"
But have you ever overheard such a conversation - really? In real life? No. You haven't.
"When it comes to sleeping, whatever your baby does is normal. If one thing has damaged parents enjoyment of their babies, it's rigid expectations about how and when the baby should sleep." ~ James McKenna, Ph.D., Mother Baby Behavioral Sleep Center, University of Notre Dame
So because I'm not sure if you misread, since you only quoted the one line, I'll restate:
If your kid has a head cold, I will keep my kid away because I don't want your cold in my house. Colds are a PITA and you're never immune no matter how many you get. And my kid isn't a kid who sleeps more when he's sick. He's just clingy and snotty and miserable.
If your kid has the chicken pox, I will bring my child over and let them wrestle.
It's one of the diseases that we are not vax'ing against because getting it in the wild, you have a better chance of creating your own lifelong immunity - and it's one that nursing mothers pass along to their babies. As far as I know, the jury is out on the efficacy of the boosters for the chicken pox vax.
That said, if Baz has NOT gotten it in the wild by the time he's 12 or so, he'll get the vax because it's widely documented that the older you are when you get it, the more severe the illness.
Did I answer your question? I know you weren't being snarky, so if I didn't, we can certainly continue until we understand each other.
Due to severe reactions that H had to vaccines, we selectively vax and delay Bay's vaccines [one at a time]. I also stay at home with her, plan to breastfeed past 2 years, and she is not around non-vax kids very often.
We do know some children who are non-vaxed and while I don't try to keep Bay away from them as we aren't around them much anyway, I do think about that when they're playing together.
I don't judge people based on the decisions they make about vaccines but I do judge them on how they arrive at those decisions. Not researching and discussing something so important with your pediatrician [and preferably many other doctors as well] is just irresponsible. I know ignorant people who both fully vax and don't vax at all and I find them all equally annoying.
We don't vax our son and we don't plan on vaxxing baby #2 either. For our family (and for personal and religious reasons) it's just not worth the risk to us. We don't limit who we do or do not hang out with. All of my sons friends are vaccinated and we don't limit his exposure to him. And one of the PP is correct, vaccines don't always take. My sister has had the MMR vaccine 4 times (for her work) and she just had the blood titer done which shows she is not immune to it. So crazy.
My son was also in a home-run daycare for 3.5 years (until we could afford for me to stay home with him) and we never had any issues with the daycare and his vaccinations. We also didn't keep him out of daycare when another child got "live" vaccines.
Hope this helps.
Uh, no shiit. I'm not sure why anyone thinks this is news. It's actually one of the reasons that everyone who can get vaccinated should: to protect those for whom the vaccine does not take, and thus protect the community as a whole.
Unless your reasons for not vaxing are medical, your reasons are not good enough. Vaccinate your kids, people.
Many people who don't vaccinate do have medical reasons. Vaccines can/do injure/kill. Medical.
I'm not talking about the controversial autism link, I'm talking about kids who have documented and physician endorsed medical death/injuries form vaccines. Often out of the blue. It's real, and it happens, and it is a major concern for some parents, more so than the illnesses that the vaccines are supposed to protect against
Also, several religions do not believe in vaccinating. Do you think people with religious belief systems that differ from your own should be forced to vaccinate?
Not trying to be snarky. Curious if you think it's acceptable be tolerant of differing religious viewpoints on vaccination.
Just having a fear that your kid MIGHT have a reaction? Not a good enough reason to not vaccinate. This is not a medical issue. This is a paranoia issue.
And no, I don't agree that religious reasons are sufficient. I'm not saying that the law should compel people to go against their beliefs, EXCEPT that I think religious and philosophical exemptions for public school admittance should be eliminated. If you're so religious that you can't vaccinate, keep your kids at home and educate them in your religion, or find a religious school.
Love this! That about sums it up....btw, we don't vax, so if you do, you're an IDIOT SHEEP!
I am against religious "viewpoints" against vaccination because none actually exist. Less than .2 % of the population claims religious exemption. But you would know this already because you are very educated.
The latter part is only a personal decision as no particular religion outlaws vaccinations. I mean, in general medicine itself is and has been controversial to the "god is in charge of when you croak" folks. Right now the only publicly declared "religious" anti vaccination movement has been put in place is by the Taliban. Oh and some super right wing US groups who dont' believe girls should have the HPV vaccine because its gods way of punishing them with ovarian cancer. So you know, the good folks!
I'm still laughing good and hard at how much more educated you and your friends are. FAR more so than we evil vaccinators. And then you throw out nonsense like this.
As for the OP, I dont' know of a single person who doesnt' vaccinate. But my husband is in healthcare and i'm a big fan of public health movements.
I am against religious "viewpoints" against vaccination because none actually exist. Less than .2 % of the population claims religious exemption. But you would know this already because you are very educated.
The latter part is only a personal decision as no particular religion outlaws vaccinations. I mean, in general medicine itself is and has been controversial to the "god is in charge of when you croak" folks. Right now the only publicly declared "religious" anti vaccination movement has been put in place is by the Taliban. Oh and some super right wing US groups who dont' believe girls should have the HPV vaccine because its gods way of punishing them with ovarian cancer. So you know, the good folks!
I'm still laughing good and hard at how much more educated you and your friends are. FAR more so than we evil vaccinators. And then you throw out nonsense like this.
As for the OP, I dont' know of a single person who doesnt' vaccinate. But my husband is in healthcare and i'm a big fan of public health movements.
I don't think rudeness and sarcasm is a good way to get your point across. I never called anyone evil. At all. I also never claimed to be more educated than you or people who vaccinate in general. What I did say was that in my particular group of friends, the ones who do not vaccinate are more educated than the ones who do.
This is echoed in several studies that I've read. A "risk factor" for non-compliance with traditional vaccination schedules is having well-educated parents. I happen to have this link on hand to a peer-reviewed study that was published by the Public Library of Science: https://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.1000270
Specifically quoted: " Having a family with two parents or three or more children and having well-educated parents decreased the likelihood of a daughter receiving the vaccine."
The study looked specifically at the parental factors determining HPV vaccine receipt
There was also a study by researchers at the CDC that found:
children who hadn't received any shots at all ?tended to be white, to have a mother who was married and had a college degree, to live in a household with an annual income exceeding $75,000 and to have parents who expressed concerns regarding the safety of vaccines and indicated that medical doctors have little influence over vaccination decisions for their children?
This study was published in the Journal Pediatrics. When I read this I started to think of my friend group, and that's when I realized that for the most part, this rang true for the people I knew. I'm not trying to say that people who vax are stupid, at all. I would never, ever make that generalization. There are morons on both sides of the fence. I would just like to make it clear that just because we/I don't vax, doesn't mean that it's okay or correct to generalize me/us as some backwoods dumb@ss hippy dippies, though your certainly entitled to your opinion, it just might make you look stupid.
But I'm sure you already know all this because your husband works in health care
Not that it is necessary to belong to an organized religion in order to have beliefs that prevent you from vaccinating, but a few religions that do not vaccinate include Christian Scientists, some Catholics, Rastafarian's, and many Wiccan sects. Some Muslims, Hindu's and Jews refuse vaccinations because they are religiously opposed to vaccine ingredients like gelatin and alcohol. Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses often do not vaccinate because of their interpretation of scripture, but official church policy leaves it up to the individual.
I don't know much about the Taliban, but I'll take your word on their stance on vaccinations, I guess.
I have also not heard of any religion who believes that HPV is God's way of punishing women with ovarian cancer...? I do know that many religious groups are opposed to HPV vaccination because they believe in promoting abstinence as the way to avoid sexually transmitted diseases. I don't agree with the abstinence approach to proactive health care but I absolutely don't think it's the same as what your implying.
Thanks for anyone who stayed with this. It's long, I know. I have done a ton of research about vaccines and it's something I find incredibly interesting (God, i'm boring...) I also have a good relationship with my pedi and we've talked about many vaccine related issues. I am happy to keep up a friendly debate if anyone is interested
If you are paranoid about your child catching something from an non vaccinated child you are also very free to home school or start your own private school in which vaccines are mandatory
If you really think the only concern of mine is about being afraid my child will catch something from your child, you really are very far up your own ass.
Public Health for public schools is the program here. Not vaccinated? You homeschool or find a wiccan coop school as that seems to be the only possible religion that may outlaw vaccines. Again, I've never met anyone who turned their noses up at public health movements. Taking a gander over to a post polio clinic certainly may be in order for many of your most educated friends.
I cannot figure out how you felt that that article illuminated your point about education.
Not vaccinating is not a personal choice. It's a public health risk and if you plan on taking advantage of public services, and public schools, I get to give you the big old side eye.
I literally LOL'd at that article.
You chose an article about BRITISH COLUMBIA, which identified the make up of those types of parents who chose to opt out of the HPV vaccine? And you were surprised at the findings that 2 parent households of upper class income tended to not feel it necessary to vaccinate their precious angel virgin forever babies against HPV and used this as a supportive article to your belief that most people who do not vaccinate are... more educated? I see.
Have you been to BC? That article described 90% of the pear clutchers on the west coast. LOL. I'm honestly a bit disturbed about your "research" if this is a sample.