Another interesting article.

cchill01

https://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/jun/25/obstetrician-frederick-leboyer-childbirth

Makes me feel guilty for my c-section, but also more resolute in my determination to have a VBAC. 

 

iris427

Wow I disagree with nearly everything he says.  I think this guy sounds like a ***.  He is totally discounting the mother and her importance.   "Birth," he explains, in his precise, gentle French accent, "is all about the child. Although everywhere you look, it seems to be about procedures and doctors and women."  WTF is he talking about?  It's not all about the child.  Mothers matter just as much.  Nor does it seem like it's all about the woman like he says.  If it were, we wouldn't be seeing VBAC bans and all the other issues that led to the creation of this board and VBAC and NB advocacy in the first place.  We wouldn't hear things like "just be grateful you have a healthy baby" or "why do you care about how the birth goes?"

And the stuff he is saying about c/s as "chickening out?"  and women being misguided?  I can't even articulate right now how sh!tty that is.

Don't ever let someone make you feel guilty about the way you gave birth. 

+diana82+

Ugh. What an asss.  

chicsub

Wow, somebody is sure high on himself?  Crying baby right now, but there is so much I could say about that article! 

emathis2

One of the only things I can agree with is that many woman are misguided about needing a c/s.  We need to be informed and knowledgable about birth going into it and if we aren't we can easily be talked in to an unnessary c/s.  Otherwise he's pretty much an a**. 

I liked the idea that the bath is a framiliar thing to the baby and calms them.  I had never thought about that before but it makes sense. I don't understand his issue against water birth though.   

cchill01

emathis2:

I liked the idea that the bath is a framiliar thing to the baby and calms them.  I had never thought about that before but it makes sense. I don't understand his issue against water birth though.   

Yeah, I was confused about this, too.  I can't figure out if he is advocating immediate skin to skin contact or an immediate bath.   It would seem like a water birth would be a perfect combination.

ILoveRunning

One of my "favorite" quotes- 

Does Leboyer really equate a caesarean section with "chickening out"? "Yes, I do," he says. "Having a caesarean is like reading a book and missing out a crucial chapter of the story ? the most important chapter, in fact."

Really!?!  I completely and totally disagree with this entire statement.  Do I believe that a vaginal delivery is preferable to a c-section in most instances?  Yes.  Should more women be encouraged to VBAC?  Most definitely.  Are births by CS, RCS or ERCS in anyway "missing a chapter"?  Most definitely not.  

I tried my hardest to avoid a c-section and ended up with one anyway.  I had wanted the calm, peaceful birth that is described in the article, but did not get it.  I was not happy with the birth and have very sad feelings about it.  However, I do not think that my sons entrance into this world is less complete because he was born by c-section.  I am proud of my scar because it is a testament to the hard work that I put into bringing him into the world.  I had over 55 hours of unmedicated back labor, some with pitocin, followed by another 8 with an epidural, and close to 3 hours of pushing.  I then had major abdominal surgery.  In addition to all of this, I carried my son in my womb for nine months, ate well, exercised, loved him before I met him, and cared for him more then anything else in the world.  This man has no right (or evidence) to place any sort of judgement on any woman for her choices regarding the birth of her child. A woman who decides on a RCS isn't robbing herself, or her child, of a chapter in their lives.

Second point I wanted to address.  I am so sick and tired of being told that it is a woman's responsibility to be educated about her choices.  I don't mean this in the sense that a woman go into labor being completely oblivious.  I think that a basic knowledge of the stages of labor, pain management choices, risks and benefits of commonly performed interventions and procedures is important.  However, the responsibility for the patients well-being and that of the baby should fall primarily on the birth attendants shoulders.  The decisions that get made during pregnancy, labor and delivery should be based upon a combination of knowledge from the provider and informed consent of the patient.  The problem with this model is that all providers come in with a bias, and it is sometimes hard for the patient to know what that bias is, or if that bias may be harmful to them.  We should be careful to not blame women or hold them liable for a c-section when things go "wrong", even if from our point of view the c-section was totally unnecessary (e.g., c-section after "failed" 5 hour induction at 38 weeks for suspected large size, etc).  Most patients respect and trust their providers, and they shouldn't have to second guess them at every turn.

cchill01

Well said "ILoveRunning."  I had a similar labor to yours (15 days late, 60 hours of failed induction, 2 hours of pushing, etc).  I do go back and forth about whether I "gave up."  But, I certainly don't think I "chickened out", because I think major surgery is way more scary then labor. 

lorryfach

The only thing interesting about that article, IMO, is that its presence shows there must be people in the world that care what that guy has to say. And that kinda boggles my mind.

Whether you had an elective primary c/s because you didn't feel like going through labor, or you had an unassisted lotus birth at 45 weeks in a yurt, the chances are pretty darn high that you love your baby. Every day you spend loving that baby means so much more than however it was born. That doesn't mean the birth is irrelevant, but to say it's the most important chapter is to ignore what motherhood is actually about.

And to say giving birth makes you a woman is an incredible insult. I was a woman before my daughters were born, and if I had never had them, I'd still be a woman. This is 2011, ffs. Why do people tolerate this BS?

 

iris427

lorryfach:

The only thing interesting about that article, IMO, is that its presence shows there must be people in the world that care what that guy has to say. And that kinda boggles my mind.

Whether you had an elective primary c/s because you didn't feel like going through labor, or you had an unassisted lotus birth at 45 weeks in a yurt, the chances are pretty darn high that you love your baby. Every day you spend loving that baby means so much more than however it was born. That doesn't mean the birth is irrelevant, but to say it's the most important chapter is to ignore what motherhood is actually about.

And to say giving birth makes you a woman is an incredible insult. I was a woman before my daughters were born, and if I had never had them, I'd still be a woman. This is 2011, ffs. Why do people tolerate this BS?

 

Agreed and I also found that statement about true womanhood incredibly insulting. 

cchill01

lorryfach:

The only thing interesting about that article, IMO, is that its presence shows there must be people in the world that care what that guy has to say. And that kinda boggles my mind.

Whether you had an elective primary c/s because you didn't feel like going through labor, or you had an unassisted lotus birth at 45 weeks in a yurt, the chances are pretty darn high that you love your baby. Every day you spend loving that baby means so much more than however it was born. That doesn't mean the birth is irrelevant, but to say it's the most important chapter is to ignore what motherhood is actually about.

And to say giving birth makes you a woman is an incredible insult. I was a woman before my daughters were born, and if I had never had them, I'd still be a woman. This is 2011, ffs. Why do people tolerate this BS?

Agreed.  And what I found really interesting was where I got the article.  My cousin's girlfriend is a doula, training to be a midwife.  She is all about what ever is natural, homebirths, non-medicated, etc, etc.  She and some of her doula friends jumped on facebook to say what an amazing guy he is and that they've heard him speak.  Maybe this article was a bad representation of his work, I don't know.

holly321

"For too long, he contends, obstetricians have been telling women that they can make birth safer, easier, quicker, less painful. "It is an illusion," he says. "They cannot. Just as I cannot breathe for you or eat for you, or sleep for you, so I cannot give birth for you. Only you can give birth, for yourself."

 Who says?  I couldn't get out of bed without assistance for weeks. My friend had her baby 5 weeks after I did, and she is fine, yet I still have pains from my c section.

"And how can women achieve that? "All pregnant women are frightened ? I honestly believe that," he says. "What a woman has to do is admit her fear, and look at what she is really afraid of. Only then can she begin to work through it and embrace the physical challenge of giving birth."

I was in no way afraid of childbirth.  On my way to the hospital, I was excited, nervous, yes but not afraid.

 

iris427

ILoveRunning:

Second point I wanted to address.  I am so sick and tired of being told that it is a woman's responsibility to be educated about her choices.  I don't mean this in the sense that a woman go into labor being completely oblivious.  I think that a basic knowledge of the stages of labor, pain management choices, risks and benefits of commonly performed interventions and procedures is important.  However, the responsibility for the patients well-being and that of the baby should fall primarily on the birth attendants shoulders.  The decisions that get made during pregnancy, labor and delivery should be based upon a combination of knowledge from the provider and informed consent of the patient.  The problem with this model is that all providers come in with a bias, and it is sometimes hard for the patient to know what that bias is, or if that bias may be harmful to them.  We should be careful to not blame women or hold them liable for a c-section when things go "wrong", even if from our point of view the c-section was totally unnecessary (e.g., c-section after "failed" 5 hour induction at 38 weeks for suspected large size, etc).  Most patients respect and trust their providers, and they shouldn't have to second guess them at every turn.

 

     

ITA with this whole paragraph.