Waiting for Superman?

Dani3679

So I had never heard much about this documentary, but I know some of you have mentioned it.   I'm on the Education Commission for Ryleigh's school and I've been asked to attend an event tomorrow evening, that is a viewing of "Waiting for Superman" and then a webcast with Gov. Kasich and Michelle Rhee.  I'm not sure what I should expect.  I know that I am personally not a fan of the Gov. so that makes me a little hesitant, but everything I've looked up online regarding the movie seems pretty interesting.  Anyone have any thoughts on the movie?

Ttimes3

Oh man, that's a loaded question. To be honest, I haven't watched the entire documentary, yet. Documentaries tend to rile me up (shocking, huh?), and I haven't had a good opportunity to sit down and watch anything in depth, uninterrupted, for quite some time.

Man, I hate Kasich. Sorry, I can't get past the fact that you'll have to listen to him. Please don't let him load your head with a bunch of crap.

Mrs.Cooley2bee

I watched it with DH about a month ago.  I don't know much about how schools are run so I tried to take the movie with a grain of salt because I know, in general, documentaries like these can be one sided.  But, it was certainly interesting and some things were eye-opening for sure.  I am curious to see what others think too!

Dani3679

Ttimes3:

Oh man, that's a loaded question. To be honest, I haven't watched the entire documentary, yet. Documentaries tend to rile me up (shocking, huh?), and I haven't had a good opportunity to sit down and watch anything in depth, uninterrupted, for quite some time.

Man, I hate Kasich. Sorry, I can't get past the fact that you'll have to listen to him. Please don't let him load your head with a bunch of crap.

See that's part of my issue, I really do not like Kasich either and I just hope it's not something that makes me look like I support him in the least bit. 

I have to say I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to all the issues with the schools and funding and what not.  Ry attends a Catholic School and we pay tuition, but her school really depends on the Ed Choice vouchers to keep their enrollment up. The group that is putting this together is the School Choice Ohio group which I honestly don't know much about, except that without the Voucher program Ry's school most likely would be shut down.

Ttimes3

Yep, you are on the right track, and it sounds like you can see through the smoke and mirrors. I definitely smell a propaganda laden agenda. Kasich and his "public school teachers are the root of all evil" message makes me want to punch something.

Mrs.Cooley2bee

I am truely not trying to start a sh!tstorm but I did come out of that documentary having serious doubts about how tenure is handled in many cases. The whole "rubber room" thing in New Jersey was crazy!

 

"at any given time an average of 700 teachers were being paid not to teach (they instead reported to ?rubber rooms?) while the district jumped through the hoops (imposed by the union contract and the law) needed to pursue discipline or termination. A city teacher in New York that ends up being fired will have spent an average of 19 months in the disciplinary process"

Now I know this type of thing doesn't happen all the time but I do know at least two "un-tenured" local teachers that have lost their jobs due to budget cuts in districts while some really crappy tenured teachers kept theirs.  I get that just ridding the system of tenure may not be the answer but it really seems like we all need to get on the same page and help our schoold have the best teachers possible.  I just don't have any idea what that process would be.  I was hoping someone with more knowledge of the system could enlighten me.

Please ?

Ttimes3

No sh!tstorm. I'm all about healthy debate. It isn't accurate to think that teachers with tenure/continuing contracts can't be terminated (and I don't mean that you are implying that, but I have heard a number of people assert this as fact). As with anything else (and almost anywhere else, public and private sector, in the field of education or otherwise), are there certain steps that must be followed in order to terminate an employee? Yes.

Mrs.Cooley2bee

Ttimes3:

No sh!tstorm. I'm all about healthy debate. It isn't accurate to think that teachers with tenure/continuing contracts can't be terminated (and I don't mean that you are implying that, but I have heard a number of people assert this as fact). As with anything else (and almost anywhere else, public and private sector, in the field of education or otherwise), are there certain steps that must be followed in order to terminate an employee? Yes.

Yes. Even at CCHMC there is a slew of steps that have to be taken to fire someone. It isn't easy, and in most cases it shouldn't be.  These things need to be well thought out and there needs to be a system.  The steps to fire me are no different than the steps to fire someone who has been here for 25 years.  If we suck, we can be fired. 

I know that you can fire a tenured teacher but the statistics are something like 1 in 1,000 tenured teachers will be fired compared to 1 in 70 doctors that will lose their license and 1 in 90 lawyers etc.  So, it seems like it is unnecessarily difficult and expensive for that matter, to fire a crappy tenured teacher. 

And FWIW - I don't think a teacher should be evaluated soley based on test scores and things like that :0)  That's just dumb.

Ttimes3

Mrs.Cooley2bee:

Yes. Even at CCHMC there is a slew of steps that have to be taken to fire someone. It isn't easy, and in most cases it shouldn't be.  These things need to be well thought out and there needs to be a system. The steps to fire me are no different than the steps to fire someone who has been here for 25 years.  If we suck, we can be fired. 

I agree with all of this.

Mrs.Cooley2bee:

I know that you can fire a tenured teacher but the statistics are something like 1 in 1,000 tenured teachers will be fired compared to 1 in 70 doctors that will lose their license and 1 in 90 lawyers etc.  So, it seems like it is unnecessarily difficult and expensive for that matter, to fire a crappy tenured teacher. 

I've heard that statistic reported, time and again. It serves its purpose, as most statistical "evidence" does. However, the comparison is apples to oranges. Here's just one way of examining the numbers from another lens:

"Consider ? we are given comparative statistics for lifting of licenses for doctors and lawyers versus only 1 in 2,500 Illinois teachers losing their teaching certificates. But that totally ignores the large number of teachers who leave before they get tenure, many of whom are low performers. Why go to the expense of legally lifting a certificate when the person is no longer teaching? We lose almost half of teachers in the first 5 years. If only 1/2 of those are substandard teachers, then the rate of substandard teachers leaving is higher than the 5-10% Hanushek says is necessary to replace, and not only 1 in 2,500. And by the way, Hanushek never gives any evidence that the replacements would be any better."

https://eduratireview.com/2010/10/this-teacher-reacts-to-seeing-waiting-for-superman/

Mrs.Cooley2bee:

And FWIW - I don't think a teacher should be evaluated soley based on test scores and things like that :0)  That's just dumb.

Mrs.Cooley2bee

So how do we make it "more fair". When there are budget cuts and teachers have to be cut, how can changes be made to fairly get rid if shitty teachers...not just un-tenured teachers. The statistics on lots if teachers leaving before getting tenured is good, thank you. But I'll add one more kind if teacher that leaves teaching in the first 5 years, the one that is laid off multiple times due to cuts even though they are high performing. There may not be alot of them but it happens:)

Ttimes3

Mrs.Cooley2bee:

So how do we make it "more fair". When there are budget cuts and teachers have to be cut, how can changes to made to fairly get rid if shitty teachers...not just un-tenured teachers. The statistics on lots if teachers leaving before getting tenured is good, thank you. But I'll add one more kind if teacher that leaves teaching in the first 5 years, the one that is laid off multiple times due to cuts even though they are high performing. There may not be alot of them but it happens:)

That's the million dollar question that nobody seems to be able to agree on. Honestly, the entire system is broken; but none of the current proposals/policies seem to be hitting the mark, tackling the problem at its source. At best, most of the current policies are band aids on a severed artery. All that said, R.I.F. (reduction in force) policies are a completely different beast. KWIM?

Mrs.Cooley2bee

Ttimes3:

Mrs.Cooley2bee:

So how do we make it "more fair". When there are budget cuts and teachers have to be cut, how can changes to made to fairly get rid if shitty teachers...not just un-tenured teachers. The statistics on lots if teachers leaving before getting tenured is good, thank you. But I'll add one more kind if teacher that leaves teaching in the first 5 years, the one that is laid off multiple times due to cuts even though they are high performing. There may not be alot of them but it happens:)

That's the million dollar question that nobody seems to be able to agree on. Honestly, the entire system is broken; but none of the current proposals/policies seem to be hitting the mark, tackling the problem at its source. At best, most of the current policies are band aids on a severed artery. All that said, R.I.F. (reduction in force) policies are a completely different beast. KWIM?

Well, looks like we are totally on the same page then. We just need some inovative minds to cone up with more ideas!!!

AgathiP04

All i can say is I saw a private screening of a documentary about the Freedom Writers (not the hollywood movie), and the Freedom Writers teacher, Erin Gruwell spoke.  She advised anyone with concerns/questions about Waiting for Superman to see the Freedom Writers documentary.  I can't wait to see it in theaters.  So I say take it with a grain of salt when you watch Waiting for Superman.

kel716

Ttimes3:

No sh!tstorm. I'm all about healthy debate. It isn't accurate to think that teachers with tenure/continuing contracts can't be terminated (and I don't mean that you are implying that, but I have heard a number of people assert this as fact). As with anything else (and almost anywhere else, public and private sector, in the field of education or otherwise), are there certain steps that must be followed in order to terminate an employee? Yes.

I will preface this by saying that I do have tenure (otherwise known as a continuing contract).   You can be terminated even with a continuing contract, it's just more difficult to do.  That is the big benefit of having a continuing contract.  The other thing it does for me is allow me to be evaluated less frequently.  But, I am still evaluated...  it's just every 5 years instead of every 2-3.  If administration wants to evaluate me sooner than 5 years down the road, they can do that if they wish.  In my building, all teachers, regardless of contract status, are expected to perform at a specific level or they will be held accountable.  This is the culture I work in, and it is expected.  I know this isn't the case in all buildings, but it can be... that depends on administration

Something else to think about with teachers... we have a HUGE turnover rate.  Half of all teachers quit within the first 5 years.  In Ohio, you can't earn tenure until you make it past the first 5 years (under old laws, not SB 5).  I bring this up because of the stat you mentioned about teachers vs other professions and termination.  The weed out process happens before tenure is awarded.  I don't know the stats for doctors, etc...  but until everything is consistent, it's not a fair comparision. 

I have not seen Waiting for Superman yet.  I know it's going to make my blood boil and keep me from sleeping.  I don't know if I have the stomach for it.  And to dani- I definitely think it's a propaganda laden agenda.   Hopefully people keep their senses about them.   

linzpinz14

kel716:

I have not seen Waiting for Superman yet.  I know it's going to make my blood boil and keep me from sleeping.  I don't know if I have the stomach for it.  And to dani- I definitely think it's a propaganda laden agenda.   Hopefully people keep their senses about them.   

This.

And I am so ashamed that I "quit" after my 5th year.  I swear it wasn't "weeding out".  I promise I was good at it.  Really.  I do want to go back to education, but you know, I am really not sure that I want to go back into it as a public school teacher.  Maybe.  But there is A LOT of weight put on your shoulders.

So... I think that everyone who works in the public schools, including administration, just has too much work to do with too little time and resources.  Our building principles spent so much time putting out little fires that they didn't have enough time to put out the big fires of getting out teachers who were not doing their jobs.  I know, this sounds really backwards.  And I don't agree with it, but that's how it looked from the outside of the inside.