School-Aged Children

I have no idea how to discipline, and worried about DD.

I'm not sure where to post this, and it's probably going to get long. I'm just worried and confused and I don't know. I'm really lost as a mother and I'm failing my child, which is hard.

So first; 

I don't know how to discipline. I just don't. My knowledge is time out, which were a joke when she was 3 and surely don't do anything now. How do you discipline a 5 year old? What methods, techniques, whatever, do you use? 

And seperately; (and much, much longer.)

Recently, DD1 has gotten angry. She's always been a bad listener. She does what she wants, and she runs the show. She loves to be the center of attention (ie; if there's people over or we're out somewhere, she loves to tell them stories about her or sing or dance and put on a show.) but she's also incredibly independent. If things are going her way, she's sweet as pie. But as soon as you tell her no, or something isn't going good, she freaks out. This is normal for her. And it's her trying to get her way. And unfortunately, for the past 5 years, she's gotten her way. It's easier than fighting with her. Her preschool teachers used to joke that she should be lawyer because she can fight or deal her way into anything. ("Ok, how bout I take 4 more big bites of this and then I can get that big candy." "No." "Ok, 5 big bites and a smaller piece of candy.", etc.)

But recently, it's escalated. She cannot cope or self soothe, at all. The word no is LITERALLY the end of the world and she just can't deal with it. She talks really nasty and throws the biggest fits. She'll sit up in her room and scream about how much she hates us and hates this house and hates everything.

She also tells me how she wishes she was 3 again because she was happier then. And she hates her life.

We'll plan nice days. We'll go out to a kids museum, get lunch, have tons of fun. On the car ride home, she'll want candy. I say no. She flips out and hates me. Who cares that I just took her out and we had a great time. Candy is more important.

I'm also worried she may have ADD. When you talk to her, I can just see it in her eyes. You can see her gears turning and I can tell she's thinking about what she wants to say or tell me as soon I stop talking, not actually listening to my words. I'll ask her to pick up her jacket and hang it up and she gets herself distracted in the 10 steps it takes to get there. She'll forget what I asked her to do. She also doesn't see things when she's looking for them. I'll tell her to grab something that's on the floor in front of her, and she doesn't see it until I stand right in front of her and point to it. IDK, it's frustrating but I'm not sure why it happens. 

She's smart, though. She reads well and even though she's only in Kindergarten, the tests she brings home are always 100%. I think she's bored in school because of it. But when I discussed my concern of ADD with her teacher, she said she doesn't see her not focusing in school. So, IDK.

Her father and I are seperated. My H and I live with my parents, in our own section of the house. Her father lives at home, too, but their house is much more shared. It's all one space. Where we live is seperate from the main part of the house so we have our space and my parents have theirs. My point here though, is that she's with different people. H and I are trying to be more consistent with a schedule and a responsibility chart, and she's responding well to it, but she also spends time with her dad and his mom, and my parents. And her dad disagrees with everything I say, so getting him on the same page is impossible. He lets her watch shows she shouldn't watch (ie; South Park. WTH?) and just generally isn't as worried about her behavior as I am.

It's gone past her just not listening. She's miserable, all the time. My 5 year old is unhappy and that's just not normal. She doesn't eat or sleep well. I have to pretty much force her to eat dinner and she should be starving cause she hasn't eaten all day and still will tell me she's full after 3 bites and it's WW3 to get her to finish. And she lays in bed for hours. I put her up around 9:30 or 10 and she'll come back down at 11:30 and tell me she's been reading books and she's not tired and she can't sleep. So she's sleeping from like midnight-9am.

IDK what she needs. A regular doctor, a child therapist? Her flip outs and inability to cope, is that because I've always given in so she never had to deal with no? I mean, when she was younger if I said she couldn't have candy or something she'd get mad and get over it but now it seriously effects her mood and the rest of her day.

And I don't know how to discipline when she doesn't listen or does something wrong. I put her in time out but that does nothing. I've looked for parenting classes in my area but I don't find anything and I don't really know what I'm looking for.

I'm failing her. I know I am. I was great at the younger age. Taking care of her. Food, clothes, baths, playing. But I just don't know how to help her here. I don't know how to teach her to deal with her own emotions. I tell her it's okay to be angry/upset that she's can't have what she wants but she still can't have it. I get mad when things don't go my way, but I don't let it ruin the rest of my day. How do I teach her to deal with her feelings? I'm so lost. 

I seriously will do whatever. I'll go to parenting classes or workshops myself, read books. If it's me that needs to learn how to better structure and discipline, I can do that. I just need to figure out where to go and how to start. Or should I be getting her help? Do 5 year olds say they hate their lives and wish they were 3 again? Or is my DD showing signs of depression. (I have depression, and I've been on medication since I was 11. It was BAD when I was like 13, but I've been alot better since getting on meds that work.)

I just don't know where to start. :( 

Chelsea; 7/22/2005 Carissa; 4/9/2011 Cassidy; 9/6/2012
Baby #4; 7/7/2018

Re: I have no idea how to discipline, and worried about DD.

  • Talk to your daughter's pediatrician. They should be able to recommend a counselor. DD was having behavioral issues last year (at 5), and we went to a counselor who worked wonders in the 6 months that we saw her. I would not hesitate for a second to go back and see her again if necessary. It sounds like your DD is dealing with a lot of similar issues that my DD was--mixed messages and different forms of discipline, boredom at school, general brightness, a lot of distraction, etc.

     

    Mom to J (10), L (4), and baby #3 arriving in July of 2015
  • My husband and I adopted our son, a 7 year-old boy, last summer and have had a trying adjustment as he's tested/testing us to hell and back.  So I've done a lot of reading, both about adoption and about parenting, and have seen the amazing progress we've made along the way.

    Yes, your daughter is testing you, and her behaviors are normal for a child that has never really had to consistently deal with "no."  I don't think she needs a therapist, or that she's unhappy or possibly even angry.  I think that she wants you to feel like she's unhappy and angry.

    My quickest recommendation would be two books:  Parenting with Love and Logic and 1, 2, 3, Magic.  I really liked the philosophy in Parenting with Love and Logic, and it?s what my husband and I base our parenting style on, and I found the techniques and non-emotional parenting in 1, 2, 3, Magic supper effective.  Since time-outs don't work for you, you'll have to start using alternatives, or natural consequences.  Basically, you'll be teaching your daughter that every action has a consequence, and that if she wants to avoid negative consequences, she'll have to make good choices.  This not only works, it's how real life operates.

    The main lesson in 1, 2, 3, Magic is that you can't get emotional.  Children test boundaries to learn what they can get away with and to try to push for more.  Screaming that she hates you isn't her true feelings, but it's effective, so she'll keep doing it as long as you think it's just easier and better to give in and avoid the scene.  Kids love to get a reaction; it shows them that they have an effect or control over you and makes them feel powerful.  The more you show your frustration, the longer tantrums will continue, and the more of them there will be.  As hard as it is, you have to train yourself to be non-emotional and non-responsive to her taunts.

    From what you described, I don't think your daughter has ADD (I am an adaptive ski instructor and have a lot of experience with children who have ADD).  Your daughter just sounds preoccupied--sometimes with her defense/manipulations and sometimes with other random things.  She hasn't had to learn that what's important to you is/should be important to her, so she just pays you no mind.  She likely is more disciplined in school, and that's likely why she seems more focused there.

    Of course it would be more ideal if you and her father could agree on discipline, but it's not essential.  Just like she receives different treatment in school than she does at home, you can be more strict with her than her father.  It make things more difficult, but your lessons will better prepare her for life.

    I have a lot more I could say, but there was a similar post on the adoption board just a week or so ago, and I'd like to give you the link to that as well, because a lot of it is applicable to your situation, too:

    https://community.thebump.com/cs/ks/forums/thread/52964820.aspx

    Good luck!  I know how hard it is to feel like the "bad guy" and to be locked in what seems like constant battle with your child.  When you reach the other side, though, life is so much sweeter.  Let me know if I can answer any more questions!

    ETA:  One more thing I meant to include:  when you tell your daughter to do something, don't end your sentence with "okay?"  Instead, ask her if she heard you, and ask her to repeat it to you, especially if the instructions included more than one step.  This will force her to focus and listen when you give her directions, and help her to remember everything you expect.

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  • You have a lot going on here.  My sense is that while there is an outside possibility of something more clinical (depression, ADHD, etc) going on here, that the root of your problem is this:

    All the adults in your DD's life (you, her dad, her grandparents, and her teachers) have allowed her to be in charge, and she's a smart little girl who KNOWS she's not capable of being in charge of her own life.  With her words and behavior, she's screaming out for structure, boundaries, and limits.  The behavior you're seeing is that of a child who projects independence, bossiness, demands, and manipulation.... while on the inside she's feeling tremendous anxiety, fear, and a deep feeling that no one cares about her enough to take charge.

    Know this:  Telling our children "NO" is another way of saying "I love you enough to stop you from doing bad things."  When we say "no... well, since you're fussing so much... okay" it tells the child "I don't care about you that much.  It really doesn't matter to me what you do."  This seems extreme, but it's really true.  Your daughter has "heard" this subtext over and over again since her toddler years.

    Having said that, I applaud you for recognizing the situation for what it is, and for accepting responsibility for your role in creating this.  Also, know that this situation absolutely CAN be turned around.  She will respond to changes that you make, and it's by no means to late to help her.

    I think, however, that you are going to need professional help. In fact, I think you need a team of counselors.  You need one for the adults. You are still partially dependent on your parents, as is your DD's dad.  All of the adults will need to be working together.  Since it seems like the father is not going to cooperate, you will probably need a neutral adult mediator to help bring him on board, or -- if he refuses to cooperate -- to assist the rest of you in minimizing the damage he continues to do to your DD.  Next, I think your DD would probably benefit from counseling as well.  Although she's craving for boundaries and limits, there is a part of her that's going to fight like a tiger when things change, and she'll need support.  Also, a counselor can help lessen some of the anxiety she has and boost her confidence about being a "real" big girl who knows how to follow the rules and be civilized.

    Also, you didn't specifically mention this in your OP, but you might want to consider the large number of changes that have gone on in your DD's life recently: starting kindergarten, becoming a big sister, uncertainty in her living situation (Daddy's part of the house, Grandma X's house, Grandma Y's house, Mommy and step-Dad's part of the house -- where do I fit in?  Who's looking out for me?)   

    A book you might enjoy reading, while you're busy lining up all the professionals to help out, is Parenting With Love and Logic.  I think it will help you gain the emotional strength and perspective you're going to need to turn this thing around. 

    High School English teacher and mom of 2 kids:

    DD, born 9/06/00 -- 12th grade
    DS, born 8/25/04 -- 7th grade
  • imageneverblushed:

    Also, you didn't specifically mention this in your OP, but you might want to consider the large number of changes that have gone on in your DD's life recently: starting kindergarten, becoming a big sister, uncertainty in her living situation (Daddy's part of the house, Grandma X's house, Grandma Y's house, Mommy and step-Dad's part of the house -- where do I fit in?  Who's looking out for me?)   

     

    ditto all this. I am not sure on the books previous posters recommended , but it sound like you have a LOT going on , and she really needs some reassurance in her world. I would totally get with her pedi, and get in touch with a professional.

    Good luck!

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  • I'd start with a psychologist that has experience with kids and offers therapy through play.  My DS is similar to what you've explained.  He is a difficult child and always will be, but he is smart, can be sweet and I wouldn't change him for anything.  Unfortunately, his stubborness sometimes gets in the way of him being successful in life.  We were really locked into some tough battles of the wills before we went to see his psychologist.  She gave us some new skills for dealing with his behavior, which were nothing like what we'd ever used before.  I wouldn't say that my DS will ever do something just b/c I ask him to and b/c I am his mom ... it's just not how he rolls. 

    But, our discipline is really gentle now and it's working.  I get him to do the things I need by being really positive about his ability to do it and do it the first time I ask.  Time outs are used by all of us so that we can cool off and then find a solution to our problem.  DS knows that if he is upset about something he is free to go to a safe place to regroup until he's ready to rejoin us. We don't yell anymore and now we're getting DS to learn that it works both ways.  He doesn't like it when I yell and so he's not allowed to yell to get his way either.  Slowly, we're working on expressing himself in appropriate ways, which is something the psychologist has been really helpful with.  Sometimes it takes someone else saying it for it to get through to your kids too.

    Sometimes, like with candy, snacks, something dangerous, no realy means no and I stand my ground that he can't do it or has to wait until later.  But, I pick my battles and with certain things there are no absolutes anymore.  DS is 5 and will make mistakes and so he is given do-overs which really help diffuse situations before they escalate into something that we can't get ourselves out of (e.g. me saying no to something for no reason other than we're arguing and then not being able to take it back b/c I have to follow through).  Also, being a smart kid, he really needs to know *why* he can't have/do something.  Saying no just isnt' enough for him, so it's been helpful to say "you can't do A b/c we are doing X."  And, spending time with him allowing him to use his brain in a fun way one on one or with the family has gone a long way to making him a happier child and avoiding conflict too.  At least once a week we sit down to play card games or dominos as a family and it makes a huge difference.  I can always tell when we haven't done it in awhile. 

    As for ADD, DS does have it, but is not hyperactive.  He has difficulty controling his impulses and cannot function well when there is a lot of other stimulus around him.  When he can focus, his school work is great.  But, it also affects his classroom behavior in many other ways.  It also presents much differently in girls, so it's not a bad idea to get it checked out.  But, it could just be that she needs a little help expressing her self in the right way.  Being 5 isn't always so easy, I guess. ;-)

    DS1 age 7, DD age 5 and DS2 born 4/3/12
  • I agree that a part of your issue may be that both you and your DD's dad still live with your respective parents.  You didn't mention your age or your ex's age, but I think a big part of your DD not seeing you as a true authority (and you not being able to exercise authority over her effectively) is that you're still partially dependent on your parents.

    Yes, I get it -- you live in a separate part of the house, blah, blah.  But that's not the same as true independence, and I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that.  I would make it a priority to get out of Mom and Dad's and into an apartment asap.  Clearly, you want to maintain a good relationship with them, and grandparents can be a wonderful support network -- when they're allowed to be truly in the role of grandparents!  But the multiple layers of parents/guardians/extended family in the picture is not going to make dealing with your DD's issues easier. 

    High School English teacher and mom of 2 kids:

    DD, born 9/06/00 -- 12th grade
    DS, born 8/25/04 -- 7th grade
  • jlw2505jlw2505 member
    The first thing I want to say is to take a deep breath,  you are not a bad parent.  You are a single mom who is doing the best that she can.  This is coming from a mom of an almost 5 year old who has an appointment with a psychologist for a behavioral eval in just over a week so I totally get it and what you are going through.  When things with my DD got to a point where we didn't know what else to do, we talked to her teachers who felt that her behavior was not the "normal" for her age.  I then called her ped who referred us to a behavioral clinic for kids within our health system.  We are pretty sure my DD has a learning disability (she was born with a brain injury but has developed pretty much normally but is about a year behind her peers in a lot of things now) and might also have ADHD or her behavior of late could all be related to the learning disability.  We will learn more at the appointment.  It took us about 6 weeks to get the appointment and we had tons and tons of paperwork to complete.  I would call the ped today.  Other things that can be done is that your ex and you have to be on the same page, he needs to be involved in whatever you do.  She needs consistence and she needs rules.  I would read Love and Logic.  We have a chart for my DD - to get a check mark, she needs to listen, be helpful and the big one is she needs to stay calm.  She can get upset and even have a little tantrum but she has to calm herself down ASAP.  We often talk to her what happens when she gets upsets/has tantrums and talks about when its OK to be upset, how to handle things differently, etc.  If she gets 5 check marks in a week, she gets a prize, if she gets all 7 check marks (she did this last week for the 1st time) than she gets a bonus prize.  Prizes don't have to be toys - we have don picking where we go to dinner, a new toothbrush, chapstick, ice cream, picking an activity for us to do.  Good luck and try not to beat yourself up.
    Jenni Mom to DD#1 - 6-16-06 DD#2 - 3-13-08 
  • My DD is 6 and she gets a little out of control sometimes. She's a good kid at heart but she gets pushed back and forth every weekend to my house and her dads house. It takes a toll on her emotionally. Sometimes I have to explain to my DH that he can't be so rough on her. She's been through alot. Her parents splitting, me getting married, and now I am pregnant. She doesn't have alot of consistency at her dads house, so she is usually tougher to deal with on Sunday and Monday.

    We started a star chart and she earns her allowance and trips to Disneyland and Great America. If she acts up, we take them away. We've missed out on 2 Disney trips due to her behavior, but it gets through to her. I just gotta keep letting her know that she can't just get everything she wants, it needs to be earned. It's been working for us.

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