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Babies: 3 - 6 Months
Circumcision
Hi.
Im new to this, Im really seeking advice from a third party who can view my situation objectivly!
My son is 5 months old. I'm a Christian. My husband believes is Judiasm. And so, believes our son should be circumsized for that reason.
I do NOT want to put my son through that pain! We have been arguing about this since I found out we were expecting a boy at 35 weeks pregnant and I have not given in yet! I see it as soon unnecessary and pointless!!!!
How can we get past this argument and how can I get my husband to stop nagging to get out son snipped! 
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Circumcision
hahah. My husbands is the only one circumsized I have seen/ And TBH when we first started dating i didn't know what to do with it!!!
I just don't want to put my son though so much pain
it would break my heart. and i've read of risk of infection while its healing .. which is a whole nother worry.
I don't see why my little boy can't choose when he's older to be circumsized or not, if he decides to follow his dad's religion, But my DH will hear nothing of it!
christians do do it, but its not really done much any more?? atleast not around here!
we are planning to teach our son about both religions and let him make a choice when he's old enough, so i think same should go for this!
the penis has a natural system that cleans itself, as long as the outside is being washed during bath time there should be no problems with it with the foreskin.
There's considerable debate in the Jewish community regarding whether it is necessary or not. If you'd like to avoid a circumcision, do some religious-based research and see if you can sway your husband.
In the end, this is *not* one of those things that I, personally, would just "let him have." I am very against circumcision and it was absolutely not an area wherein I'd be willing to let my husband have his way. Without parental consent, I don't believe it can be done. At your son's age, I believe the surgery requires general anesthesia - the religious requirement was to do it on the 8th day of life, I believe. You're past that window. . . maybe you can convince you rhusband to move on?
Yeah, I know, religious reasons blah blah blah. What it is is voluntary cosmetic surgery - I do not agree to body modification of someone else's body at any point when it is elective. As there's disagreement within the faith itself over its requirement, I think it's best to study those who disagree that it is a requirement and discuss the issue with a rabbi.
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My husband and I both agreed to get this done.
I would much rather have my little go through the procedure now, which he will not remember, then when he is old enough to remember!!!!
Thank you! I will look into that debate.
They do require both parents consent and I've been refusing thus far and I plan to continue.
The area of the country you live in may have something to do with this. The percentage of babies in the midwest is the highest in the country (81%). Western states have the lowest circumcision percentages (37%). You can try contacting some local synagogues to talk to the rabbi's current views. You might be able to find one that doesn't believe it is necessary and you can take that argument to your DH.
We didn't do circumcision, but part of that is because DS is partially naturally circumcised. If we had wanted to do it, we would have had to call in a pediatric urologist. But we probably wouldn't have done it anyway. Even though DH is circumcised, we both saw it as unnecessary surgery.
We did it, we are Christian but that wasn't a factor. It is easier to keep clean & there are some medical benefits (although often disputed)
We did it because we want him to be the same as his Daddy. Since DH is, DS is. Also in America most people circumcise. It's our culture & I don't want DS to be different. I
It doesn't really hurt then too much & a baby will never remember. Our son was numbed prior to the 5 second procedure. He didn't even cry, it healed in less then a week.
I wouldn't let "pain" be a factor in your decision.
agreed
My 7 year old twin nephews are not circumcised and had there ever been any debate whether or not to circumcise DS I would have pointed to them and said let's do it. One is terrible about keeping up with the cleaning and ends up with a UTI all the time. The doctor told my SIL that if he gets another one he is recommending that he gets circ'd. (Of course since they're twins, the other one who is doing perfectly fine is going to get dragged down with his brother. Poor little guy!)
After a baby is one month old, most doctors require the baby to go under general anesthesia for a circ, and most will not perform elective general anesthesia until they are at least one year old.
My husband and I were debating the same thing when I was pregnant and I pulled a bunch of info. But the things that finally convinced him were:
1. The "he'll be different that every other boy" argument was thwarted when I said that in most other countries this is not done, with so many cultures in the US now, it is no longer the norm here. In the west coast only 30ish% are these days. So if he is, he will likely be different.
2. They are considering making it illegal in our state.
3. Baby should have a say since it will be his body. (And would he do this if it were a girl....if not, why consider it for a boy?) Since it is something that can be performed later IF the child wants it, this leaned him toward keeping the baby intact.
4. But the deciding factor was that I would only consider hearing his argument is he was willing to sit and watch this video in its entirety and then say he was ok with it.
https://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbXVFFI76ff0&has_verified=1
I bawled my eyes out watching this and still feel like I'm going to throw up when I hear this poor kid SCREAM. He would not watch it and agreed that we would not get it done. We had a girl so there will be no need for future discussions!
I won't throw my views down your throat, but I have more links with reasons to keep your child intact, I would be happy to post if you want more info.This is increasingly untrue. I think the latest numbers were something like 36% circumcise across the US, a drop from 85% when we were infants.
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When trying to decide, we discussed it with our pedi, who felt that there really aren't any great medical benefits to circumcision. The UTI rate goes from something like 1% to 0.1% - it's really low anyways. My OB felt the same way, and personally hasn't done it in years. In our area (West coast), it is becoming much less popular - about 40% elect to have it done. My husband watched a video on it, and after seeing that decided against it. So, my son did not get circumcised and we are fine with that. Many of my friends have chosen to get their sons circ'd. To each his/her own, I suppose.
If you feel that strongly, I say keep standing your ground. If having it done now would require general anesthesia, I'd wait and let him make the choice when he is older and can decide for himself. I would feel pretty guilty about making my baby undergo general anesthesia for a cosmetic procedure. I know I'm not taking the religious aspect into consideration here...
DH was not circ'd, and neither was DS. It's his body, it should be his decision. DH had no problems growing up, nor did his brother.
We did not circumcise DS. Here is how we reasoned out each of the arguments around circumcision.
Theologically- we are neither Muslim nor Jewish so it isn't a sacred act for us, as circumcision is not a salvation issue in Christianity. There are many verses you could look at, but here is one: "Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised." I Corinthians 7:18-19. In other words, circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. One's relationship God is what matters. For your family, this decision comes down to how you are raising your child in terms of faith. Will you pick one tradition, or both, or wait for your child to decide? Have you talked to a rabbi about his views since you are already beyond the 8 day timeline?
I think the heart of the solution for your family is in the faith issue, but in terms of other things that DH and I considered:
Health- Medically, foreskin removal has shown some benefit in lessening transmission of HIV/AIDS based on studies done in Sub-Saharan Africa. But, to me it seems as though preventing transmission of HIV/AIDS through voluntary intercourse has more sure-proof ways: sexual education that encourages abstinence (or at least monogamy or even limiting number of partners) and teaches use of condoms for people who do elect sex (paired with living in a culture where condom use is acceptable so people will actually use them). Those seem like a surer course for prevention than body modification. In US culture, we are vastly closer to those steps. If I was raising our son in, say, Swaziland, I would reweigh this health argument. But living in the US, to me the medical benefit of circumcision can be duplicated through sexual education and condom use, things that our culture advocates moreso than some other cultures.
Hygienically- women learn to clean their folds so personal care can certainly be taught to men as well. Elderly men in other countries have manage to get penile care ample enough that there isn't a circumcision revolution in other cultures.
Ethically- We don't believe in imposing body modification for others for non-health reasons, and since we don't see it as a health reason this would not be an ethical act for us. (We can see how families who come down on a different side of the health position would 100% see it as ethical and we respect their choice. It just isn't the right thing for us.)
Social/comparison concerns: everyone has a body that is different from parents and peers. Little girls have flat chests, everyone in the family may have different looking nipples, kids don't have pubic hair. In the H.S. locker room situation, we don't encourage girls to do breast modification to look like others, right? Instead we teach kids to deal with their differences, not change themselves.
Culturally- In our culture the infant circ rate is going down, so doing it is not necessary in US secular cultural (of course, religious culture is a different thing altogether). In other cultures around the world circumcising at all is weird, in yet other cultures doing it on an infant is weird. Culture can even vary across a country. Because of such huge variations, the cultural argument is the weakest to me. Doing something just because the crowd is doing it has never held much water and really the crowd isn't even doing it as much. Another example, in some Muslim cultures boys get circumcised when they reach puberty as part of entering the faith. The idea that circumcision is unbearable after infancy is a Western perception, not a universal truth. Which brings us to...
Reversibility- If our son ever needs a circumcision to solve a diagnosed problem, we can still do it. If he reaches the age of reason and wants to be circumcised for whatever reason, we will support his wishes. His body, his choice.
More Green For Less Green
A Jew is a person born to a Jewish mother. If you are not a Jew, no amount of penis cutting is going to have any ritual purpose because even after being circumcised your son will stilll not be a Jew unless you were to convert. Some Mohels will not circumcise a child of a non Jewish mother. Other mohels will circumcise any child whose parents will pay- even if neither is Jewish. In light of that, it doesn't seem like a very sacred ritual if the people doing it will sell out just to turn a buck. There is no point in a Jewish man "sticking to his guns" over this - if his religious rules were that important to him- he would have married a Jewish woman... the fact that Jewish law was not such a big deal when he said "I do" to you makes me think that his issues wanting circumcision for his son are the typical circumcised man social/denial issues, and he's using the religion card to pressure you.
Many Jews are willing to question circumcision- this documentary will be going on tour with the filmmaker around the USA very soon- https://www.cutthefilm.com/Cut_Website/Home.html
Another person outspoken for genital integrity is Ronald Goldman who has written several books including "Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective." He has an extensive website and is a psychatrist.
Leonard Glick wrote "Marked in your Flesh" which is a very comprehensive history of Circumcision focusing mainly on Judiasm- this book is expensive, but would be a great candidate for the inter- library loan.
Circumcision is also contrary to Christian teaching (if done for mistaken religious reasoning) Circumcision has NEVER been a Christian tradition- but it has, at times, been culturally or pseudo-medically introduced to Christian people- this should not be confused- this does not make it a Christian practice. To circumcise for the old covenant is to turn your back on the New Covenant that Jesus had to die to secure for us. After Jesus bled on the cross- there is not one drop of hum,an or animal blood that can be shed for any purpose toward salvation. The last blood of any value was that of Jesus himself. faith and baptism are the only requirements now- not the old law.
He can not be Jewish anyway because that goes by the mother.
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Below is the religion info.
I also would like you to read this to your husband ( i wrote it)
https://intactipedia.org/index.php?title=An_Introductory_Summary_of_Circumcision
CIRP.org is a great resource as well (listed in the BMJ)
Sounds like a classic case of adamant father syndrome read this:
https://knol.google.com/k/circumcision-and-human-behavior#
Circumcision in Christianity
If you are a Christian, you are entirely free of any religious reasons for circumcision. In fact, historically, Christians have been specifically forbidden to practice circumcision. I suspect that when some misinformed Christians imagine they have a religious reason for circumcising their children, they are really just grasping for additional excuses to follow the false medical indoctrination they have received their entire lives.
Christians who mistakenly think that they have religious justification for circumcision ought to read the new testament. Here it is clear that the early Christian church, under the guidance of ST. Paul, abolished circumcision. Throughout his epistles, St. Paul took every opportunity to condemn circumcision, as the following quotations prove:
?Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you be circumcised, Christ will be of no advantage to you.(Galatians 5:2)
"I just wish that those troublemakers who want to mutilate you by circumcision would mutilate themselves." (Galatians 5:12, New Living Translation (?2007))
And even those who advocate circumcision don't really keep the whole law. They only want you to be circumcised so that can brag about it and claim you as their disciples. (Galatians 6:13)
For there are many who rebel against right teaching; they engage in useless talk and deceive people. This especially true for those who insist on circumcision for salvation. They must be silenced. By their wrong teaching, they have already turned whole families away from the truth. Such teachers only want your money(Titus 1:10-11)?
?Watch out for those wicked men ? dangerous dogs, I call them ? who say you must be circumcised. Beware of the evil doers. Beware of the mutilation. For it isn?t the cutting of our bodies that makes us children of God; it is worshiping him with our spirits. (Phil 3:2-3)?
It is true that Jesus was probably circumcised, but this is because his parents were Jews. Jesus was denied any choice in the matter. Besides, Christians are hardly required to copy every thing that happened to Jesus. Jesus never advocated circumcision. After, all the earliest Christians-- ones who actually walked with Jesus-- abolished circumcision:
?His disciples said to him: is circumcision useful or not? He said to them: If it were useful, their father would beget them from the mother (already) circumcised. But the true circumcision in the Spirit has proved useful in every way.(2)?
The founders of Christianity believed that God himself condemned circumcision as a blasphemy invented by foolish men. The New Testament Apocryphal Book of Esra reports the word of God, which came to Esra, the son of Chusis, I the days of Nebuchadnezzar thus:
?when you bring offerings to me, I will turn my face from you; for your feasts and new moons and circumcisions of the flesh I have not asked(3)?
Early Christians took the abolition of circumcision very seriously, and the early Church quickly passed laws banning circumcision under the penalty of death. The original church laws against circumcision read:
?Roman citizens, who suffer that they themselves of their slaves be circumcised in accordance with Jewish custom, are exiled perpetually to an island and their property confiscated; the doctors suffer capital punishment. If Jews shall circumcise purchased slaves of another nation, they shall be banished or duffer capital punishment(4)?
The Church was also very concerned about Jews circumcising Christians or citizens of any other sect. Consequently, they passed laws protecting people from such an assault. The Church law states:
?Jews who circumcise a Christian or commit him to be circumcised, their property shall be confiscated and they shall be perpetually banished.(5).
All forms of sexual mutilation-- both circumcision and castration-- have been banned by the Church as insults to God. According to the teachings of the early church, circumcision is blasphemy because it implies that God made a mistake when he created the human body. The Apostolical Cannons of the Church state
?Canon XXII
He who has mutilated himself, cannot become a clergy man, for he is a self-murder, and enemy to the workmanship of god.
Canon XXIV
If a layman mutilate himself, Let him be excommunicates for three years, as practicing against his own life.(6)?
The enlightened holy men who worked hard to establish, spread and safeguard Christianity strongly condemned circumcision. There where the early Fathers of the Church, such as St. Augustine, who wrote:
?Accordingly, when you ask why a Christian is not circumcised if Christ came not to destroy the lay, but to fulfill it, my reply is that a Christian is not circumcised precisely for this reason, that what was prefigured by circumcision is fulfilled in Christ. Circumcision was the type of removal of our fleshy nature, which was fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ, and which the sacrament of baptism teaches us to look forward to in our own resurrection. The sacrament of the new life is not wholly discontinued, for our resurrection from the dead is still to come; but this sacrament been improved by the substitution of baptism for circumcision, because now a pattern of the eternal life which is to come is afforded us in the resurrection of Christ, wear as formerly there was noting of the kind.(7)?
The other great Church Fathers, Such as St. Cyril(8), St. Jerome(9), John Chrysostom(10), St John of Damascus(11), St. Justin Martyr(12), Lectantius(13), Origen(14), Tertullian(15), and St. Ambrose(16), Reaffirmed the ban on circumcision for Christians. Origen said quite plainly:
?The rite of circumcision... which began with Abraham.. was discontinued by Jesus who desired that His Disciples should not practice it(17).?
Speaking of circumcision, St. Ambrose wisely observed:
?Nature has created nothing imperfect in man, nor has she bade it be removed as unnecessary(18).?
Over the centuries, the Catholic Church has passes many laws banning circumcision of children and adults(19). Martin Luther Preached against circumcision on many occasions(20). Even more recent branches of Christianity have taken a firm stand against circumcision. For instance, the holiest scriptures of the Mormons, the Book of Mormon(21) and the Doctrine and Covenants(22), both condemn and forbid circumcision. Thus, the traditional Christian response to circumcision has been to reject it as an insult to the wisdom of God in designing the human body.
Further Regarding Judaism
Hospital circumcisions have no religious validity any way.
If a Jew was circumcised in a hospital as many are today: do you think they should be denied the right to a religious circumcision? A consenting adult who has reviewed their faith could make this decision on their own giving both religious freedom or the freedom to genital intactness for the individual. Would it not be better to discourage non consenting infant circumcision in a non religious hospital setting?
Further more some research I have come across seems to question the tradition of circumcision as a tenant of Judaism. Most people assume that circumcision has always been a part of Jewish life. In Genesis 17, we read that the Lord appeared to Abraham when he was ninety-nine years old and made a covenant with him, agreeing that he would be the God of the Jews and the Jews would worship no other god but him. To Seal the bargain. Jehovah is reported to have said to Abraham:
?For Your part, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after your, generation by generation. This is how you shall keep my covenant between myself and your descendants after you: circumcise yourselves every male among you. You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between us. Every male among you in every generation shall be circumcised on the eighth day, both those born in your house and any foreigner, not of your blood but bought with your money. Circumcise both those born in your house ans bought with your money.?(genesis 17:9-19)
Biblical scholars, however, have known for a long time that this passage was never in the original Bible. It was added about 500 B.C., over one thousand years after the time of Abraham. Scholars David Rosenberg and Harold Bloom have published a full translation of the original version of Genesis, which dates from about 950 B.C. Here, Chapter 17 is conspicuously absent. All we read is that
?it was that day Yahweh cut a covenant with Abram:?I gave this land to your seed, from the river of Egypt to the great river, Euphrates?of the Kenite, and Kenizzite, the Kadmonite; of Hittite, the Perizzite, the Rephaim; of the Amorite, the Canaanite, the Girashite, the Jubisite(23)?
As you can see, there is no mention of circumcision as a sign of this bargain. Along with biblical scholars, the only conclusion is that circumcision was never originally part of Judaism. Why, then, was circumcision incorporated into priestly Judaism?
Rabbi and historian Lawrence A. Hoffman explains that by the late fifth century B.C., at the time of the Jews from Babylonian captivity, the priest hood tried to confirm their status as the dominant political force among the Israelites. (24) they did this by instituting a temple-centerd sacrificial cult into which newborn males were initiated by circumcision. They created the Abrahamic circumcision myth and inserted it into the most important part of Genesis, pretending that it had been there all along. The priesthood maintained their grip on power until about A.D. 71, when they were overthrown. Circumcision has remained a Hebrew practice ever since.
References:
Gospel of Thomas 53. In: Schneemelcher W, Wilson R. Mcl (eds). 2 vols. New Testament Apocrypha. Chambridge: J. Clkarke& Co; louisville, Ky: Westminister/John Knox Press. 1992-1992. Vol.2, pp.125
Esra 5:30-31. The Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra 5:30-31. The Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra. In: Schneemelcher W, Wilson R. Mcl (eds). 2 vols. New Testament Apocrypha. Chambridge: J. Clkarke& Co; Louisville, Ky: Westminster/John Knox Press. 1992-1992. Vol.2, pp.125
Paulus, Sententiar 5:22:3-4. In: Linder A. (ed). The Jews in roman Imperial legislation. Detroit: Wayne State University press; 1987. pp. 117-20.
Collectio Tripartita, book 1: from the codex. Title 9, translation 70. Linder A (ed). The Jews in the Legal Sources of the Early Middle Ages. Detroit: Wayne State University Press; 1997. p.49.
The canons of the holy and altogether august apostles. In: percival HR (ed). The seven Ecumenical Councils of the undivided Church. Vol.14 of: A select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene fathers of the Christian Church 2nd series. New York: Charles Scribner?s Sons; 1900. p.595.
St. Augustine. Reply to Faustus the Manichaean. Book XIX. Paragraph 9. In: Dods M (ed). The Works of Aurelius Augustine, Bishop pf Hippo. Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark. 1872. vol. 15, p. 334
St. Cyril. The Catechetical Lectures. In: Schaff P. Wace H (eds). A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene fathers of the Christian Church. Second Series. 14 vols. New york: the Christian Literature Company. 1894. vol. 7 p. 30
St. Jerome. Epistola XIX: De vera circumcisions. In: Migne JP (ed). S. Eusebii Hieronymi, Opera omnia. Petrologiae cursus completes. Paris: n.p.; 1846. vol. 11 , pp. 188-210
St. John Chrysostom. Discourses Against Judaizing Christians Translated by Paul W. Harkins. Washington, DC; The Catholic University of America Press; 1979.
John of Damascus. Exposition of the Orthodox Faith. Chapter XXV. Concerning the Circumcision. In: Watson, Pullan L (eds). A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene fathers of the Christian Church. 2nd series. 14 vols. New York: The Christian Literature Company. 1894. vol 9, p 97.
St. Justin Martyr. Dialogue with trypho. In:Falls TB (ed). Writings of Saint Justin Martyr. New York: Christian heritage; 1948. pp. 147-368[here, pp. 171-84,212-9]
Lactantius. The Dicine Institutes, XVII. Of the superstisions of Jews, and their hatred aganst Jesus. In: Roberts A, Donaldson J (eds). The Ante-Nicene fathers. 10 vols. Buffalo: The Christian Literature Company; 1886. vol. 7 , pp.118-9.
Origen. De Principiis, 4.3 In: Butterworth GW (ed). Origen on First Principals. London: Society for promoting Christian Knowledge. 1936. p 293.
Tertullian. Adversus Iudaeous II, 13-III. In: Quinti Septimi Florentis Tertulliani Opera, Paris II. Opera Montantistica. Turnholti: Typographi Brepols; 1954. pp. 1344-9.
16. Saint Ambrose. Ambrose to Horontianus. In: Beyenka MM (trans). Saint Ambrose Letters.New York: Fathers of the Church. 1954. pp. 251-4.
17 Origen. Against Celsus 22. In: the Ante-Nicene fathers. 10 vols. Buffalo: The Christian Literature Company, 1886. vol. 4, p. 405.
18 St. Ambrose. Ambrose to Clementianus. In: Beyenka MM (trans). Saint Ambrose letters. New York: Fathers of the Church. 1954. pp. 405-9[here, p. 407].
18 Grayzel S. The Church and the Jews in the XIIth Century. Vol. 2, ed K.R Stow. Detroit, Mi: Wayne State University press; 1989. pp. 246-7.
19 Linder A (ed). The Jews in the Legal Sources of the early Middle Ages. Detroit: Wayne State University press; 1997. pp. 28, 35, 38, 49, 52-8, 73, 84, 87, 104, 106, 119-9, 127, 133-6, 141-4, 147, 155-8, 170, 172, 213, 214, 226, 233, 238, 242-4, 248-53, 257, 260, 264, 268, 270, 274, 278, 285, 290, 295, 314, 351, 406, 409, 413, 416, 485, 488, 499, 519, 543, 576-7, 583, 587, 612-3, 617, 619-20, 636, 656, 658, 669, 670, 679.
20 see: Pelikan J, Oswald HC, Grimm HJ, Lehmann HT (eds). Luthers Works. 55 vols. Philadelphia: Fortress press; 1971. vol. 2, p. 361; vol. 47, pp. 88, 152-9; vol. 54, p. 239.
21 Moroni 8:8. The Book of Mormon. Translated by Joseph Smith First published in 1830. Salt Lake City: the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, 1921. p516.
22 Section 74:2-7. Doctrine and Covenants. Salt Lake City: Desert News Company; 1880. pp. 260-1
23 Rosenberg D, Bloom H (trans and eds). The Book of J. New York: Grove Weidenfeld;1990. p.79.
24 Hoffman LA. Covenant of Blood: Circumcision and Gender in Rabbinic Judaism. Chicago & London: University of Chicago Press; 1996.
"I do NOT want to put my son through that pain! We have been arguing about this since I found out we were expecting a boy at 35 weeks pregnant and I have not given in yet! I see it as soon unnecessary and pointless!!!!"
Good for you! Your mommy instincts are telling you what is true. It is totally unnecessary and pointless. It's also extremely painful and can damage his penis, even cause death. Circumcision is a horrific procedure that is needlessly inflicted upon babies.
Has your hubby seen a video of circ? Does he know that there are many myths about the 'benefits' of the procedure?
Most parents have no clue just how harmful and traumatic circumcision is for their baby. I have no doubt that if parents were FORCED to watch a video of the procedure and then be PRESENT to hold their child down while his genitals are being cut on, then the rates of circumcision in this country would plummet even further.
Some videos of circumcision (aka male genital mutilation) in America:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDuDhkiDdns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXVFFI76ff0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k6dWrtUDg0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MLtxCwdMv0
Circumcision trauma:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAGNnqyNidY
The above video explains why many parents erroneously believe their child 'slept through' the procedure ... no, they didn't. They were actually in a state of shock from the brutal trauma.
Also, religion isn't an effective excuse for inflicting bodily harm on a non-consenting human being. Muslims are not legally permitted to have the gential skin of their baby girls cut - and with good reason. Yet boys are not afforded such protection; this is unconstitutional, for it denies males equal protection under the law.
Further resources your hubby might want to check out:
www.IntactAmerica.org
www.NoCirc.org
www.TheWholeNetwork.org
www.DoctorsOpposingCircumcision.org
www.JewsAgainstCircumcision.org
www.JewishCircumcision.org
www.CIRP.org
www.4eric.org
www.CircInfo.org
www.Circumcision.org
Be WARY of sites like CircInfo.com or CircInfo.net. They are run by circumfetishists who pose as legitimate sources of information. CircInfo.ORG is safe.
I totally agree. I get so tired of hearing that here.
In this parenting forum in Singapore they speak of female genital cutting just like you all speak of male genital cutting.
"Yup, i brought my girl to d same doc; Dr Elly Sabrina
dont worry. It will be very fast & quick!
It's done within a few seconds... I brought my baby der when she's about 2mths old. Doc will then give you a cream to apply on your baby. My girl recovers very fast. She gave a quick shriek during the process but after that she's fine. She never even cry after that. you can just give the doctor a call if you want to find out more."
The forum is here: https://www.mummysg.com/forums/f40/have-you-sunat-your-girls-29826/
good thing they got it over with at a young age. imagine doing it as an adult ( sarcasm)
Its too bad the medical literature does not agree with you.
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Many parents are surprised to hear that anesthetics are used in only a minority of cases.(25) The use of local anesthetics significantly drives up the costs of surgery. When anesthetics are used, they can only reduce the pain. Infants can not be given general anesthesia because of the medical risks involved. In the recent past, anesthesia was rarely used, if ever. Because of this, circumcision has always been an extremely traumatizing experience causing an array of short and long term behavioral and developmental problems (26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35), including altered perceptions of pain(36,37,38), post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)(39,40,41,42), and a possibly of adult self destructive behavior(43,44,45). Many circumcised men, some of whom are doctors, experience a strong denial of loss which in turn fuels an emotional compulsion to repeat the trauma to normalize their loss.(46,47,48,49,50)
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"Five locations on the uncircumcised penis that are routinely removed at circumcision were more sensitive than the most sensitive location on the circumcised penis[...] The glans in the circumcised male is less sensitive to fine-touch pressure than the glans of the uncircumcised male[...]The most sensitive location on the circumcised penis is the circumcision scar on the ventral surface [...] When compared to the most sensitive area of the circumcised penis, several locations on the uncircumcised penis that are missing from the circumcised penis were significantly more sensitive."(62)
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(62)Morris L. Sorrells, James L. Snyder. Fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis . BJU Int. 2007 Apr;99(4):864-9.
(25)Stang , M.J., & Snellman, L.W. (1998). Circumcision practice patterns in the United States. Pediatrics, 101(6)
(26)Gunnar MR, Fisch RO, Korsvik S, Donhowe JM. The effects of circumcision on serum cortisol and behavior. Psychoneuroendocrinology 1981; 6(3):269-75.
(27) Porter FL, Miller RH, and Marshal RE. Neonatal pain cries: effect of circumcision on acoustic features and perceived urgency. Child Dev 1986;57:790-802.
(28) Porter, FL, Porges SW, Marshall RE. Newborn pain cries and vagal tone: parallel changes in response to circumcision. Child Dev 1988;59:495-505.
(29) Emde RN, Harmon RJ, Metcalf D, et al. Stress and neonatal sleep. Psychosom Med 1971;33(6):491-7.
(30) Gunnar MR, Connors J, Isensee, Wall L. Adrenocortical activity and behavioral distress in human newborns. Dev Psychobiol 1988;21(4):297-310.
(31) Anders TF, Chalemian RJ. The effects of circumcision on sleep-wake states in human neonates. Psychosom Med 1974;36(2):174-9.
(32) Marshall RE, Stratton WC, Moore JA, et al. Circumcision I: effects upon newborn behavior. Infant Behavior and Development 1980;3:1-14.
(33) Marshall RE, Porter FL, Rogers AG, et al. Circumcision: II effects upon mother-infant interaction. Early Hum Dev 1982; 7(4):367-74.
(34) Lee N. Circumcision and breastfeeding. J Hum Lact 2000;16(4):295.
(35) Anand KJS, Hickey PR. Pain and its effects in the human neonate and fetus. New Engl J Med 1987;317(21):1321-9.
(36)Taddio A, Goldbach M, Ipp E, et al. Effect of neonatal circumcision on pain responses during vaccination in boys. Lancet 1995;345:291-2.
(37) Taddio A, Katz J, Ilersich AL, Koren G. Effect of neonatal circumcision on pain response during subsequent routine vaccination. Lancet 1997;349(9052):599-603.
(38) LaPrairie Jamie L. Murphy Anne Z. Neonatal Injury Alters Adult Pain Sensitivity by Increasing Opioid Tone in the Periaqueductal Gray. Front Behav Neurosci 30 September 2009.
(39) Boyle GJ, Goldman R, Svoboda JS, Fernandez E. Male circumcision: pain, trauma and psychosexual sequelae. J Health Psychol 2002;7(3):329-43.
(40) Rhinehart J. Neonatal circumcision reconsidered. Transactional Analysis J 1999;29(3):215-21.
(41) Ramos S, Boyle GJ. Ritual and medical circumcision among Filipino boys: evidence of post-traumatic stress disorder. In: Denniston GC, Hodges FM, Milos MF (eds) Understanding circumcision: A Multi-Disciplinary Approach to a Multi-Dimensional Problem. New York: Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers, 2001: pp. 253-70.
(42) Menage J. Post-traumatic stress disorder in women who have undergone obstetric and/or gynaecological procedures. J Reprod Infant Psychol 1993;11:221-28.
(43) Van der Kolk BA, Perry JC, Herman JL. Childhood origins of self-destructive behavior. Am J Psychiatry 1991; 148;1665-71.
(44) Jacobson B, Bygdeman M. Obstetric care and proneness of offspring to suicide. BMJ 1998; 317:1346-49.
(45) Salk L, Lipsitt LP, Sturner WQ, et al. Relationship of maternal and perinatal conditions to eventual adolescent suicide. Lancet 1985;i:624-7
(46) Van der Kolk BA. The compulsion to repeat the trauma: re-enactment, revictimization, and masochism. Psychiatr Clin North Am 1989;12(2):389-411.
(47) Goldman R. The psychological impact of circumcision. BJU Int 1999;83 Suppl. 1:93-103.
(48) Maguire P, Parks CM. Coping with loss: surgery and loss of body parts. BMJ 1998;316(7137):1086-8.
(49) Hill G. The case against circumcision. J Mens Health Gend 2007;4(3):318-23
(50) Goldman R. Circumcision policy: a psychosocial perspective. Paediatr Child Health 2004;9(9):630-3.
Unlike amputating the most sensitive part of the penis and a 3x5 index card of flesh, ear piercings are reversible and less painful.
In this parenting forum in Singapore they speak of female genital cutting just like you all speak of male genital cutting.
"Yup, i brought my girl to d same doc; Dr Elly Sabrina
dont worry. It will be very fast & quick!
It's done within a few seconds... I brought my baby der when she's about 2mths old. Doc will then give you a cream to apply on your baby. My girl recovers very fast. She gave a quick shriek during the process but after that she's fine. She never even cry after that. you can just give the doctor a call if you want to find out more."
The forum is here: https://www.mummysg.com/forums/f40/have-you-sunat-your-girls-29826/
good thing they got it over with at a young age. imagine doing it as an adult ( sarcasm)
children are just alterable cosmetic accessory's like any other piece of property
Well it looks like it was good enough for you to get it. You did read it. My formatting as poor as it may have been, doesn't change the content.
Well whether this is a moot point or not now, my son didn't even cry when they circ'd him in the hospital. They gave him some Tylenol prior and the nurse said he didn't even make a peep through the procedure.
He has yet to tell me I'm a sucky person for doing it to him.
well then you must just be ignoring it intentionally?
If you can read then you can read this:
In this parenting forum in Singapore they speak of female genital cutting just like you all speak of male genital cutting.
"Yup, i brought my girl to d same doc; Dr Elly Sabrina
dont worry. It will be very fast & quick!
It's done within a few seconds... I brought my baby der when she's about 2mths old. Doc will then give you a cream to apply on your baby. My girl recovers very fast. She gave a quick shriek during the process but after that she's fine. She never even cry after that. you can just give the doctor a call if you want to find out more."
The forum is here: https://www.mummysg.com/forums/f40/have-you-sunat-your-girls-29826/
good thing they got it over with at a young age. imagine doing it as an adult ( sarcasm)
Well you just better hope he doesn't come across something like this :
https://intactipedia.org/index.php?title=An_Introductory_Summary_of_Circumcision
The results of a poll of men circumcised at infancy was published in the BJU int. It concluded: Surveys ofbody image consistently reveal significant dissatisfaction with circumcision. One report suggested that 20% of circumcised men were dissatisfied with their condition, while 18%of them would rather not have been circumcised [31]. Another survey [32] canvassed 197 intact and circumcised American men, who reported their perception of their genital condition. Of intact men, 80%, 3% and 17% were satisfied, dissatisfied or ambivalent. Of the circumcised men, the respective values were 38%, 20% and 41%. Another report [33] revealed that half the respondents circumcised as infants were unhappy about it, compared with 3% of non-circumcised respondents who were unhappy being intact.?(1)
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(1)Hammond, T. (1999). A preliminary poll of men circumcised in infancy or childhood. British Journal of Urology International, 83, Supplement 1, 85-92.
There is no predicting how a child will grow to feel about it. its a gamble.
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One you tube user and FGM victim who hosts a channel and goes by the name of CleanSexy experiences a strong emotional compulsion to promote FGM.(2) She is a Muslim and in her culture she has been subjected to all the same health rationalizations for FGM as we have been for MGM. Here we can observe that the same results of cultural indoctrination are applicable to both men and women.
Here are some of the things she told me:
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?Calling female circumcision "mutilation" only strengthens the movement for more circumcision, because nobody likes propagandistic hyperbole rhetoric.? i.e., you only make it more obvious that anyone who is against circumcision is an irrational radical.
...
Don't feel sorry for me, my bits are improved and enhanced. Sex is better, I'm cleaner, and I'm safer. Your jealousy is? overwhelming.
...
Yes, I was circumcised, and I'm glad. If I wasn't circumcised, I would get circumcised. The clitoris is a disgusting piece of flesh, and the labia only serves to hold in bacteria? and yeast.
...
Why wait when you know it's better to be circumcised? I've yet to talk to a woman who was circumcised that wasn't glad she was circumcised. The only women I hear who are against female circumcision haven't been circumcised. How would they know if they haven't had it both ways? I was 12 when I was circumcised...
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(2) https://www.youtube.com/user/cleansexy#p/u
They are for the OP, Im not forcing any one to respond. I suspect people get so defensive because deep down they either know it is wrong or have some degree of regret.