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July 2011 Moms
MPSW
member
S/O Controversial Parenting Topics - ? about circumcision
MPSW
member
I've never (ahem) encountered an un-circ'ed penis, and all of my friends who have boys have all circumcised...many of them are Jewish and did it at a Bris, but plenty also did in the hospital.
What are the arguments against circumcision? I've never heard that one way is better than the other ... I just assumed most people do, and we plan to if we have a boy.
And ... a poll:
[Poll]
This discussion has been closed.
Re: S/O Controversial Parenting Topics - ? about circumcision
"The LORD is my shepherd, I lack nothing." Psalm 23:1
I think some people feel like it's "maiming" the baby, or that it's unfair because the little guy has no say and it's obviously permanent.
On the flip side I've had to care for an uncircumcised penis before, and there's more steps involved. And if it's not done properly it can be really bad.
I'm not sold on either argument. Guess it's good we're having a girl this time around.
Because it is so routinely done in the US you will be hard pressed to find an adult male who has not been sniped here...however in Europe it is not very common at all to perform them unless there is a medical condition that doesn't allow for the foreskin to be moved back (phimosis)
There is no medical necessity at all to circumcise but people choose to do it for hygienic or religious reasons. I personally have discussed with my husband back and forth and are glad we're having another girl as it would have been an epic battle in our house...He insists that a boy would feel left out if his penis looked different than his fathers and that kids in the shower at youth sports would make fun of him...I figure with 50% of folks not circumcising the crowds in the gym will be evenly split...
This is COMPLETELY untrue. The foreskin stays attached until at least 4 years old and often up until 10-13 years old. You do not have to do anything to it other than wash it. If you tried to pull back the foreskin before it detached that is what causes serious issues.
We'll miss you sweet Debbie Girl (4.21.12) and sweet Cindy Girl (8.9.12)
It is not medically necessary. We won't do it if it's a boy, but I respect people who do it for religious or otherwise good reasons.
Would you undergo any other surgical procedure just because you thought everyone else did it? Going under the knife, or putting your baby under the knife, warrants more research than that IMO.
I should have clarified: it was and ADULT I was caring for. A man with a developmental disability that was well beyond 13 years old and also used adult diapers. He had a serious issue after some of our care providers failed to take care of him properly.
Like I said, I'm not sold on one way or the other. It's something I'll look into more when the time comes.
We are not. It is an unnecessary cosmetic procedure. The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Medical Association do not recommend the procedure.
Caring for the uncircumcised penis of an infant is the same as a circumcised penis (after it heals of course). The foreskin doesn't detach until they are at least age 4, and on average age 10. So, by the time the skin detaches, you can teach him how to care for it.
If our guy decides he wants it done, we'd pay for it. But, really, I see it as a non-issue because more and more babies are not having the procedure done on them.
Oh, H is not circumcised. He was born in the US, but his parents are immigrants. It just isn't done in Europe unless you are Jewish. European men seem to be doing just fine unsnipped. Rampant infection and emergency circumcision isn't an issue there. Not sure why people use it as an argument because the incidence rate of needing some sort of medical intervention due to not being circumcised is statistically very small.
We'll miss you sweet Debbie Girl (4.21.12) and sweet Cindy Girl (8.9.12)
I have "experienced" both and frankly an uncircumcised one grosses me out!! Also, the guys I have known who were not circumcised were always kinda embarassed about it and scared to tell the girl.
As long as they are taught to clean it properly its fine but I have seen some gross things when the kid wasn't taught how to do it right or didn't take the time to clean it. It just looks nicer and is more clean to me.
My Blogs -
About the most comprehensive arguments against the procedure can be found by googling the article "The Case Against Circumcision." I think everyone should read it before deciding.
If we have a boy, we will not be snipping.
I would also like to say that I've been with a couple of intact men and it never made any difference to me.
I understand there are certain faiths that have religious mandates for doing it, but the AAP and other medical entities have continuously stated there is no medical reason for routine infant circumcision. It's purely cosmetic. It's the removal of an extremely sensitive, erogenous and healthy piece of tissue. And it's not hard to keep it clean.
And while I've only been with one penis (a circ'd one), I've heard from numerous people that an intact one looks just like a circ'd one when erect. I don't get the "ick" factor myself.
As I've said, I had it done to my son because I just assumed that's what you did. I regrettably chose to research it after it was too late.
Its uncessary, it desensitizes them, its purely cosmetic, its cruel. All reasons Ive heard.
Ive been with a 50/50 split of men who both are & are not circ'd. Im an honest open person, so I ask questions. Every single one of the circ'd guys were glad they were, still had amazing sex (sometimes better imo because without the withdrawn foreskin things are harder), and do not regret the choice their parents made for them. Every one of the non circ'd guys Ive been with wish they had been, sex is still good, but they've all had some issue with not being snipped be it infection or teasing, they wouldnt get it done as an adult because what adult man wants to be out of commision for sex because of getting a hunk of skin removed? That all said, I know those are just my experiences & conversations, not every man feels that way. Ive known many elderly males who need to have it done for care purposes and Ive known several men who've had to have it done in childhood later because of issues.
Thats not true. There is a difference in both how they look & how they feel. Sure its not a huge one, but theres no way you're going to have sex with a not circ'd guy after being with a circ'd guy & not be able to tell the difference both in looks & in the actual sex.
each time this topic comes up i tend to feel like it is the same old conversation with few new perspectives. that said, i always read because i like to see what the community at large is thinking, in terms of if viewpoints are changing the way some claim, or if it is still largely status quo.
i decided that since i dont have a penis, i would go downstairs and poll my brothers on what they think (im skipping my dad and i already know my husband's stance.) for reference, my brothers are 20 and 22, respectively.
to my surprise, they were not embarassed to discuss the issue at all. i am planning on a bris for my son, but i played devil's advocate and listed all of the common reasons why people are "against" it. i really wanted to hear their responses, specifically, to it being medically unnecessary, not unsanitary, etc.
they bombarded me with horror stories that only a young man would have in his arsenal. for all i know, some of them could've been urban legends, lol. in regards to the unnecessary surgery department, they echoed all the pro-circ arguments we've all heard a thousand times before.
i had not announced to my family our intentions so i continued on with being anti-circ to guage their responses and as a means of ending the conversation, my brother replied with vehement disgust, "Why would you relegate your son to a lifetime of having a third-world penis in a first world? To think it even remotely possible a grown man would want to subject himself to such a procedure shows how ignorant you are to living as a man."
Um, whoa?
i definitely still think each family needs to make the right decisions for their situation (our reason is religious, primarily) and this is an important conversation to keep having.
This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this.
We are having a girl, but DH was convinced it was a boy! SO we had this discussion more than once. I have never been with anyone with an uncircumcised penis so I can't comment on the aesthetic look, but I don't think it would have mattered to me to be honest. I like penis...
DH is circ'ed but he wishes he wasn't. He feels like he doesn't get to feel what uncirc'ed guys get to feel. I would leave the decision up to DH if we were having a boy. I have no idea whats its like to have a penis so I wouldn't be able to make that decision.
HOWEVER! My grandfather was not circ'ed bc he was born on a farm in GA, but he was circumcised when he was older like (35?), not sure why, and he said it was the most painful thing he had ever encountered. I can't even imagine.
Its obviously a personal choice and would never judge anyone for the choices that they chose to make.
Born and raised in Europe and circumsized men, except for religious purposes, are virtually unheard of over there. Never had a snipped man until I moved here and it looked pretty strange--I assume the way American ladies think it looks strange when they do see foreskin. The aesthetic didn't bother me too much, penis' are pretty strange looking either way and as different as female genetalia are I would never stoop to belittling or judging a man based on the look of a healthy penis. Seems a little cruel.
Sounds like the ladies here have given good reason why it's completely unecessary, outside of religious purposes. Also, circ rate is the lowest it's been in America in like 50 years or so, so I think the stigma that Americans have of uncircumsized penis' are finally going the way of the dinosaur.
https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/u-s-circumcision-rates-on-the-decline/
While what follows is an anecdote, it's worth noting that circumcision isn't without risk. Not only is there risk of infection and bleeding, but also risk of it being performed incorrectly.
My cousin was born a few months before my brother. A large part of his penis is missing because of a botched circumcision. I don't know the details, but it led to my parents deciding to change their minds and not have my brother circumcised. In his early-20's my brother had a cyst develop on his penis. When the Dr went to treat it he offered to circumcise my brother. He refused as an adult. I would imagine that given the option most men would NOT have a piece of their penis removed.
I don't know of my brother ever being teased in school about his penis. My husband has said he/his friends/etc never talked about guys penises or teased someone about being uncut (one of his good friends is intact and has said it's never come up with 'the guys'). My husband also did not ever compare his penis to his Dad's as a child. Furthermore, a child's genital area will look dramatically different than an adult man's regardless.
Studies about the benefits of circumcision are mixed and lifestyle choices, like condom use, are much better at prevention of STD's than circumcision. Furthermore, major medical organizations, such as the American Academy of Pediatrics, don't recommend routine circumcision.
Needless to say, we don't plan on circumcising. My husband initially wanted to because it's just what is done but upon further research he agreed that it's an unnecessary medical procedure. I understand if you have religious reasons to do so, but otherwise it seems unnecessary.
I wish I could say with certainty that we were not circ'ing LO, but unfortunately it's not that simple. I did the standard "I don't have a penis, so I'll leave it up to DH" response with DS. DH did the standard "I'm circ'd, so my son will be too."
It was only after the procedure that I started to read more about it and realized the extremity of our decision. Insurance doesn't cover it for good reason. It is completely unnecessary. That said, DH is not convinced LO should not be circ'd. I've tried to give him the numbers that only one 1 out of every 3 boys in the US is now circ'd and that LO very well could be on the losing end of the locker room taunts DH witnessed growing up and wants to avoid.
Our discussion continues . . .
My DH is a special snowflake,.
He was circed when he was about 21. The foreskin wouldn;t go over his erect penis making every erection painful. He was incredibly self concious and embarressed and waited til he was in the US to have it done (he's from the UK).
His father had to have it done as an adult as well for the same issue.
We are DEFINITELY getting our son snipped. My DH talks about the embarressment, the shame and having to have it done as an adult. The pain and also the scarring is SO MUCH WORSE than I have ever seen on a man before. I'm not risking my 21 year old son needing to be snipped.
My DH never told his mom or dad- as a matter of fact no one in his family has been "told" he had it done.
I feel bad for the teenager DH was because everytime he got morning wood he was in pain. How fair is that?
Also, my grandfather had to be circed in his 50s or 60s. The elasticity goes out of the skin and his foreskin wouldn't retract back so he couldn't properly clean it. Gross.
I live in Europe, DH is from Lux (in Europe) and he's not circumcised. When I lived in the states my long term boyfriend was circumcised. I can honestly say that I couldn't tell the difference while having sex and the visual difference isn't mind boggling, is a penis, they all look strange any way!
If our LO is a boy he will stay in one pice, I see no point in removing part of my child incase something goes wrong in the future, otherwise hey I'd just not have a kid, ya never know where somethings going to go wrong!
I find it funny that people use it as their argument for or against (not saying you necessarily, just that this scenario comes up in these discussions). I am pretty sure that in the locker room, dudes try to avoid staring at each other's penises. I am not sure that this would be an issue one way or the other, so it seems like a moot point. I think if someone commented on DH being circumcised in the locker room, he'd probably say something along the lines of, "It's weirder that you're checking out my ***."
Whoa is right!! Not only for the severity of his reaction, but for the words!! I take huge offense to that on behalf of DH! At what point did we decide altering ANY part of anyone's body makes us elite or "first world?" Is there going to come a point where women WITHOUT implants are going to be viewed as "third world" because they didn't choose to spend the money altering their perfectly good God-given anatomy? I mean, if you live in a developed country with good doctors, why wouldn't you choose to have bigger boobs, right?
How about everyone has less judgment in general over the way our bodies are naturally formed?
Sigh.
My H is circumcised, as that as the common practice when he was born (I don't think most people in my parent's generation even thought of it as a choice - just something you did).
We are not planning to circumcise our boys. Our feeling is that there is no medical reason, and it is not a religious issue for us, so why do it? I think the "uncircumcised penises look funny" argument is only because most of us have primarily encountered me who were circumcised. It's a matter of what you're used to seeing.
As far as "baby's won't look like daddy's," a toddler penis looks nothing like an adult penis - I doubt that a child would even notice the difference when they're at the age to be worried about such things. Kids aren't bothered when they have different hair or eye color than a parent, so why would they be bothered by their penises looking the same?
To address being teased in the locker room, with circumcision rates as low as 50%, I don't think there will be a norm by the time our kids are locker room age. Some will be circumcised, some won't. I don't see it being a big deal.
Well, the arguments against it are that it's unmedically unnessary in most cases (true).
In our household, the boys will be snipped. DH wouldn't be my DH if he wasn't snipped. I've encountered uncut peen, and they gross me out. And to make my ideas politically correct, and hence unflameable, we'll say that uncut peen is against my religion. The religion of damabo mandates that the boys be cut. So there.
BFP #3 via cancelled IUI ~ C (2lb 3oz; HELLP) 5/16/11
BFP #4 via the natural (free!) way ~ E (8lb 11oz) 9/13/12
I love this response.
Yeah, I was taken aback by that too. Sounds like something I'd hear in a trailer park. I'd be too embarrassed to admit if my DH and his family/friends thought that way or said something like that...
Plus I'm pretty sure the UK would be pretty upset if somebody called them "third world"...
Not to mention that, in most third world countries, ritual adolescent circumsicion is a rite of passage for men... and a lot of women. In most African countries, Islamic child child circumcision is the norm. Ina ll of South America, Europe and Eastern Asia, circumcision is extremely rare; hardly third world countries. Quite the contrary--USA is the ONLY 'first world country' where circumcision is somewhat routinely practiced.
https://www.circumstitions.com/Maps.html
To clarify, my DH did not weigh in. I was polling a sibling. And further, the opinion wasn't mine so I am not quite sure why you would think I should feel shame or embarassment. That, to me, is just as offensive. Judging someone else and calling their opinion "trailer park" is about as trashy as it comes and does nothing to further an adult conversation. I don't think we should have to take ownership of other people's opinions during discussion. If you care to read MY response, it was that people should make the best decisions for their family, and that the debates should wage on. My reasons are religious-hopefully that's good enough for you?
I think that a prejudice against the natural human body makes a person look incredibly sexist, provincial, petty, uneducated and in the case of circumcised males harboring fear of the body men are born with... purposely defensive. Seriously- a heck of a lot of you sound like a bunch of tribal African men ooking out over a woman who has labia... "soo nasty...and so difficult to keep clean... could get infected... she won't remember it"...etc It's a human body... it's in your DNA code, it's not a deformity or a stigma- it's normal... it's the attitude that can't accept a human being without a surgical alteration that's abhorrent!!
How many strokes to do think it take a guy to get himself off? OK... the difference between washing an intact penis and washing a circumcised penis is exactly ONE STROKE... I seriously doubt that guys have trouble finding the wherewithal to complete that maneuver.
As for "third world" it's unbelievable to me how tunnel visioned the worldview of circumcising people can be as if they assume they are the be all end all of sexy perfection and the rest of the world must be smelly, impotent, suffering spurned losers... did anyone watch the royal wedding? Hellooooo. It's really sad how circumcised people seem to want to give all the credit to everything they have for the blessing of being circumcised... when the fact is- circumcision gives nothing and takes a lot away. If a guy thinks that he would not be desirable if he were not circumcised- he must have some really big issues propping up his beliefs that circumcision is essential to be a man- which is REALLY sad.
Here is an eye opening list of people who have their whole male body- with NOT naked pictures of these normal yet famous men you already are familiar with: https://www.circumstitions.com/Famous1.html