Hmm...I guess if the bump is full of tea baggers and fire departments are socialist I'm on the wrong site. Sorry can't really get over it when my state is trying to vote for a nut job ex-witch.
Well, if we want to use the study, that actual findings were:
Conclusions At age 5 years cohort members born to
mothers who drank up to 1?2 drinks per week or per occasion during
pregnancy were not at increased risk of clinically relevant behavioural
difficulties or cognitive deficits compared with children of mothers in
the not-in-pregnancy group.
That is, it says light drinking isn't bad for the kid, not that it's good for the kid. Scientists aren't as ballsy as bloggers.
Also, "per week or per occasion" implies most people drank less than 1-2 drinks per week. They would have counted someone that drank at a Christmas party and a New Years in the drinking group.
Well if you are going to post from the study - at least do so completely:
Boys and girls born to light drinkers were less likely to have high
total difficulties (for boys 6.6% vs 9.6%, OR=0.67, for
girls 4.3% vs 6.2%, OR=0.69) and
hyperactivity (for boys 10.1% vs 13.4%, OR=0.73, for girls 5.5% vs 7.6%,
OR=0.71) scores
compared with those born to mothers
in the not-in-pregnancy group. These differences were attenuated on
adjustment for confounding
and mediating factors. Boys and
girls born to light drinkers had higher mean cognitive test scores
compared with those born
to mothers in the not-in-pregnancy
group: for boys, naming vocabulary (58 vs 55), picture similarities (56
vs 55) and pattern
construction (52 vs 50), for girls
naming vocabulary (58 vs 56) and pattern construction (53 vs 52).
Differences remained
statistically significant for boys
in naming vocabulary and picture similarities.
***
So actually, these scientists are ballsy enough to say that there IS a benefit. FWIW, it's not about being ballsy - it is about interpreting the data, and these data clearly back up a small, measurable advantage to occasional drinking.
Adding - the serving size of these drinks is very small - a 6 ounce glass of wine or a 1/2 pint of beer.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
Well, if we want to use the study, that actual findings were:
Conclusions At age 5 years cohort members born to mothers who drank up to 1?2 drinks per week or per occasion during pregnancy were not at increased risk of clinically relevant behavioural difficulties or cognitive deficits compared with children of mothers in the not-in-pregnancy group.
That is, it says light drinking isn't bad for the kid, not that it's good for the kid. Scientists aren't as ballsy as bloggers.
Also, "per week or per occasion" implies most people drank less than 1-2 drinks per week. They would have counted someone that drank at a Christmas party and a New Years in the drinking group.
Well if you are going to post from the study - at least do so completely:
Boys and girls born to light drinkers were less likely to have high total difficulties (for boys 6.6% vs 9.6%, OR=0.67, for girls 4.3% vs 6.2%, OR=0.69) and hyperactivity (for boys 10.1% vs 13.4%, OR=0.73, for girls 5.5% vs 7.6%, OR=0.71) scores compared with those born to mothers in the not-in-pregnancy group. These differences were attenuated on adjustment for confounding and mediating factors. Boys and girls born to light drinkers had higher mean cognitive test scores compared with those born to mothers in the not-in-pregnancy group: for boys, naming vocabulary (58 vs 55), picture similarities (56 vs 55) and pattern construction (52 vs 50), for girls naming vocabulary (58 vs 56) and pattern construction (53 vs 52). Differences remained statistically significant for boys in naming vocabulary and picture similarities.
***
So actually, these scientists are ballsy enough to say that there IS a benefit. FWIW, it's not about being ballsy - it is about interpreting the data, and these data clearly back up a small, measurable advantage to occasional drinking.
Adding - the serving size of these drinks is very small - a 6 ounce glass of wine or a 1/2 pint of beer.
You need to take more field trips over here. I love having a scientist around :-)
So actually, these scientists are ballsy enough to say that there IS a benefit. FWIW, it's not about being ballsy - it is about interpreting the data, and these data clearly back up a small, measurable advantage to occasional drinking.
A small advantage to the areas mentioned, at the age of 5.
I realize that. I too was being sarcastic. Only an idiot would believe you thought fire departments are socialist. I was responding to someone else. (I can't use the quote feature on my blackberry I am now responding to TTT)
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent"--Eleanor Roosevelt
So actually, these scientists are ballsy enough to say that there IS a benefit. FWIW, it's not about being ballsy - it is about interpreting the data, and these data clearly back up a small, measurable advantage to occasional drinking.
A small advantage to the areas mentioned, at the age of 5.
That's not exactly gospel, life-changing truth.
No one said it was - you said there was no benefit. I am correcting you.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
As someone who works with FASE kids all day long, there is NO way I would even chance it. Knowing what we don't know about brain development and the effects of alcohol, how could anybody be that careless to WILLINGLY partake in an activity that could have permanent, life altering implications for your child. I completely disagree that any alcohol (red wine) is safe.
So there's no amount of scientific evidence that would convince you that light drinking during pregnancy is OK?
How is it careless to do something that has scientifically shown to be safe?
And if light drinking during pregnancy is not only not harmful but is actually beneficial, isn't it actually riskier NOT to drink because you're risking losing those benefits? Shouldn't we be criticizing and judging the women who *don't* drink a glass of wine each week because they're denying their child the benefits of light drinking and dooming them to hyperactivity disorders?
To that I add, that I don't know if I will or won't have a light drink here and there, but I DO know I will not judge someone else's personal choice.
So actually, these scientists are ballsy enough to say that there IS a benefit. FWIW, it's not about being ballsy - it is about interpreting the data, and these data clearly back up a small, measurable advantage to occasional drinking.
A small advantage to the areas mentioned, at the age of 5.
That's not exactly gospel, life-changing truth.
No one said it was - you said there was no benefit. I am correcting you.
I simply posted part of the study omitted by the OP/blog.
You're welcome to correct me, but I don't really see this as strong enough evidence to go home and crack some wine. Time will tell, but I doubt my kid will be handicapped by my lack of drinking.
So actually, these scientists are ballsy enough to say that there IS a benefit. FWIW, it's not about being ballsy - it is about interpreting the data, and these data clearly back up a small, measurable advantage to occasional drinking.
A small advantage to the areas mentioned, at the age of 5.
That's not exactly gospel, life-changing truth.
It's not, and if you're not a drinker and don't like wine, then it certainly wouldn't be enough to make you want to start just to get this benefit. But again, it should at least put to rest all of the "HOW COULD YOU!?!?!" judgments.
I realize that. I too was being sarcastic. Only an idiot would believe you thought fire departments are socialist. I was responding to someone else. (I can't use the quote feature on my blackberry I am now responding to TTT)
Well, this is the Bump, so it wouldn't exactly be outside the realm of possibility that someone might take it seriously...
So actually, these scientists are ballsy enough to say that there IS a benefit. FWIW, it's not about being ballsy - it is about interpreting the data, and these data clearly back up a small, measurable advantage to occasional drinking.
A small advantage to the areas mentioned, at the age of 5.
That's not exactly gospel, life-changing truth.
It's not, and if you're not a drinker and don't like wine, then it certainly wouldn't be enough to make you want to start just to get this benefit. But again, it should at least put to rest all of the "HOW COULD YOU!?!?!" judgments.
"HOW COULD YOU!?!?!" judgements are based on emotion, not science.
You can't really combat one with the other.
I can read this study and objectively know that some wine won't hurt my baby and may in fact help. That just doesn't overcome the time I've spent with FAS kids and adults. Yes, again I know that their moms were likely binge drinkers. It's just one of those things where it's so tragic, in-my-face, and real that it's hard for me to logic away.
I don't waste my breath yelling at strangers in a restaurant, though. Promise.
I don't care who says what, I'm not drinking a sip of any alcohol. And I used to drink a LOT before getting PG, it's just out of site out of mind for me right now.
These kids scored 2 or 3 points higher on average on some test given to them at age five- this is not compelling evidence to make me think I should have a glass of wine a week.
For those of you who said, "I drank occasionally during my pregnancy and my child is pretty smart." Everyone thinks their child is smart! Again, not compelling evidence that makes me think I should drink.
I just find the occasional drink completely unnecessary. I can't think of a good reason to do it.
before I knew I was pregnant, I had a small glass of champagne, followed by a lot of food, I was nauseus after, and puked, and all that came up was the alcohol. I take it as my body rejecting it.
You're conflating correlation and causation. Also, I'm curious about how you know it was alcohol. You didn't test your puke, did you? Do you really think your body is capable of separating individual ingredients and only getting rid of what it doesn't want?
Well, I had a glass of pink champagne followed by veggie sushi, 3 small plates of nacho dip with cheese and ground beef in it, cheese and crackers, and some date squares. Then we drove home and about 3 hours after the champagne, I vomited and it was a pure pink liquid and taste exactly like the champagne. I don't know how my body did it, but none of the food came up- just a pink liquid that left an alcohol after-taste in my mouth.
I'm not making a statement or judging anyone who has a glass of wine while pregnant (because even if I didn't know- I did too). I just found it interesting that it happened like that and was sharing my story.
Unless you're a snake and eat your food whole, your body is going to digest anything you ingest and cause to break down into a fairly soupy mess. Three hours of churning stomach acids are going to turn pretty much anything you eat into "pink liquid."
So, no, your body doesn't know how to magically separate the liquids from the solids. Sorry.
how many children were tested? sorry, I didn't notice if it said.
Was it a controlled study?
Wasn't it just a few days ago that someone was being attacked about asking about the effects of Marijuana on a fetus, when there have also been studies that "prove" the "benefits". I'm not saying that its not true... but it is only one study.
how many children were tested? sorry, I didn't notice if it said.
Was it a controlled study?
Wasn't it just a few days ago that someone was being attacked about asking about the effects of Marijuana on a fetus, when there have also been studies that "prove" the "benefits". I'm not saying that its not true... but it is only one study.
I work in an academic library, so I have access to this article, but don't think the link will work if I post it. You can try going to https://oxfordjournals.org/, finding "International Journal of Epidemiology" in the 'Journals A-Z' box, click on it, click on "Journals Home Page" under the box, and looking for volume 38, issue 1, page 129 on the next screen by clicking on the Archive button.. It may be open access, so you might be able to find it and read the whole study for yourself, and gather your own conclusions on the research they did. It seems like they took the mother's word on how much she drank given a definition of what a "unit" of alcohol is.
Thank you. I appreciate it. I won't drink (because I'm paranoid.. and I don't like wine.) but I don't really frown on people who do as long as they moderate themselves, and aren't just going out to get wasted.
As someone who works with FAE kids all day long, there is NO way I would even chance it. Knowing what we don't know about brain development and the effects of alcohol, how could anybody be that careless to WILLINGLY partake in an activity that could have permanent, life altering implications for your child. I completely disagree that any alcohol (red wine) is safe.
You disagree based on what? Just how you feel? Or do you have some research to back it up?
And, tons of things you willingly partake in can have "permanent, life altering implications for your child." Like, driving in a car (and getting in an accident).
I didn't drink while pregnant, and I more than likely won't in the future. Thats my perogative. But the logic fails in this thread are why I probably, also, won't come back to 1st tri. I think my head will explode.
I don't want to write an essay or anything but, I have taken many classes, sessions and teaching special ed for 10 years, I think I have a fairly in-depth understanding of what is being discussed.
Driving a car doesn't necessarily have inherent risks, where as having a drink does.
I have had many students who's mom reported having an "occasional drink" during her pregnancy. Who's to say that their qualitative measurement is accurate? (Or mine or yours, for that matter?) What I do know is that FAE causes PHYSICAL changes in the child's brain and can cause an amazing array of problems for the child. Just because some potion of a test may rate higher than average by no means indicates that overall there is no harm/benefit for the child.
I am concerned because a quick decision, or a slip for that matter can effect not only the child, but the mom, family and community permanently.
Sorry if I wasn't clear before.
We must be the change we wish to see in the world.
You can't really compare drinking during pregnancy, and car accidents...
You chose to drink, you didn't choose to get into a car accident. (just pointing out the flaw in the comparison.)
That doesn't make any sense. You choose to drive. You don't choose to get into an accident. You choose to drink. You don't choose to give your child FAS. They are both possible tragic consequences of a choice.
ETA: actually, driving is more dangerous than drinking. You can get killed even if you drive extremely carefully, obey all speed limits and traffic laws, whether it's because of a mechanical malfunction, weather condition or another driver. You cannot (according to all medical evidence currently available) give your baby FAS by having 6 ounces of wine once a week.
So, you can avoid the consequences of drinking by doing it carefully, but you cannot avoid the consequences of driving by doing it carefully.
It makes sense to me, because I feel like I more have to drive. I wasn't actually disagreeing with you, I just feel that you could have used a different comparison. (refer to the posts before that.) I don't know about you, but I would prefer to not have to drive, but seeing as I live 15 miles from my work, and 400 from my family, I do have to drive.
As someone who works with FASE kids all day long, there is NO way I would even chance it. Knowing what we don't know about brain development and the effects of alcohol, how could anybody be that careless to WILLINGLY partake in an activity that could have permanent, life altering implications for your child. I completely disagree that any alcohol (red wine) is safe.
You can't really compare drinking during pregnancy, and car accidents...
You chose to drink, you didn't choose to get into a car accident. (just pointing out the flaw in the comparison.)
That doesn't make any sense. You choose to drive. You don't choose to get into an accident. You choose to drink. You don't choose to give your child FAS. They are both possible tragic consequences of a choice.
ETA: actually, driving is more dangerous than drinking. You can get killed even if you drive extremely carefully, obey all speed limits and traffic laws, whether it's because of a mechanical malfunction, weather condition or another driver. You cannot (according to all medical evidence currently available) give your baby FAS by having 6 ounces of wine once a week.
So, you can avoid the consequences of drinking by doing it carefully, but you cannot avoid the consequences of driving by doing it carefully.
With this logic you might as well say, "Do whatever you want whenever you want to, because you could die in a car accident anyway."
That's the kind of logic the kids at school give me... they are teenagers! "I could die of a drug overdose? I could also die crossing the street! Crossing the street is dangerous. People get hit by cars every day."
Are you going to give your child FAS from drinking one glass of wine a week? The vast majority of research suggests absolutely not, but there are other studies that are still inconclusive about far milder issues that can arise from unknown amounts of alcohol. The other issue with alcohol is it lowers your inhibitions, so people who have one drink are more likely to have another or to make other bad decisions. I'm not saying every mother who has a drink is suddenly going to go guzzle down five more, but I bet a second drink happens more often than you would think. What does the research say about two drinks in a sitting? I don't have the answer to that.
The only argument I've seen here about a positive effect is that it relaxes the mother and it's better than taking drugs to do that. I think it's about time you learn how to relax yourself without drinking. Yoga also has the same effects. If you want to compare it to being on prescription anxiety medication, then yes, maybe an occasional glass of wine is better, but I don't have anxiety/stress issues so I see no need to have to occasionally calm myself through drinking.
There is a new book out called "Origins: How the Nine Months Before Birth Shape the Rest of our Lives." Fascinating & well documented. Basically, nobody KNOWS the answers to these questions. Experts used to think smoking, taking DES and doing Xrays while pregnant were good ideas too. We now know better. Why not be on the safe side and avoid the controversial stuff?
In this book the autor talks about how exposures/experiences in the womb can lead to health issues LATER IN LIFE. Personally, I was born with a heart defect that I did not know about until it caused problems at age 30. In this book, the autor refers to a study linking alcohol consumption to heart defects. I suspected my mom drank while she was pregnant so I asked her & she confirmed she did "a little." Doctors do not KNOW what causes the heart condition I had, but something caused it, and I was born with it. Now there are minor conerns it may affect my own pregnancy. I do wish my mom would've not risked anything while she was preggo with me. It's really not asking that much.
Anyway, I highly recommend this book. It is matter-of-fact written by a woman going thru her 2nd pregnancy.
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
Re: Drinking during pregnancy is good for baby
Just FYI, my badges are sarcastic.
Well if you are going to post from the study - at least do so completely:
Boys and girls born to light drinkers were less likely to have high total difficulties (for boys 6.6% vs 9.6%, OR=0.67, for girls 4.3% vs 6.2%, OR=0.69) and hyperactivity (for boys 10.1% vs 13.4%, OR=0.73, for girls 5.5% vs 7.6%, OR=0.71) scores compared with those born to mothers in the not-in-pregnancy group. These differences were attenuated on adjustment for confounding and mediating factors. Boys and girls born to light drinkers had higher mean cognitive test scores compared with those born to mothers in the not-in-pregnancy group: for boys, naming vocabulary (58 vs 55), picture similarities (56 vs 55) and pattern construction (52 vs 50), for girls naming vocabulary (58 vs 56) and pattern construction (53 vs 52). Differences remained statistically significant for boys in naming vocabulary and picture similarities.
***
So actually, these scientists are ballsy enough to say that there IS a benefit. FWIW, it's not about being ballsy - it is about interpreting the data, and these data clearly back up a small, measurable advantage to occasional drinking.
Adding - the serving size of these drinks is very small - a 6 ounce glass of wine or a 1/2 pint of beer.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
You need to take more field trips over here. I love having a scientist around :-)
A small advantage to the areas mentioned, at the age of 5.
That's not exactly gospel, life-changing truth.
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No one said it was - you said there was no benefit. I am correcting you.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
I simply posted part of the study omitted by the OP/blog.
You're welcome to correct me, but I don't really see this as strong enough evidence to go home and crack some wine. Time will tell, but I doubt my kid will be handicapped by my lack of drinking.
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It's not, and if you're not a drinker and don't like wine, then it certainly wouldn't be enough to make you want to start just to get this benefit. But again, it should at least put to rest all of the "HOW COULD YOU!?!?!" judgments.
Well, this is the Bump, so it wouldn't exactly be outside the realm of possibility that someone might take it seriously...
"HOW COULD YOU!?!?!" judgements are based on emotion, not science.
You can't really combat one with the other.
I can read this study and objectively know that some wine won't hurt my baby and may in fact help. That just doesn't overcome the time I've spent with FAS kids and adults. Yes, again I know that their moms were likely binge drinkers. It's just one of those things where it's so tragic, in-my-face, and real that it's hard for me to logic away.
I don't waste my breath yelling at strangers in a restaurant, though. Promise.
Natural Birth Board FAQs
Cloth Diaper Review Sheet
These kids scored 2 or 3 points higher on average on some test given to them at age five- this is not compelling evidence to make me think I should have a glass of wine a week.
For those of you who said, "I drank occasionally during my pregnancy and my child is pretty smart." Everyone thinks their child is smart! Again, not compelling evidence that makes me think I should drink.
I just find the occasional drink completely unnecessary. I can't think of a good reason to do it.
Unless you're a snake and eat your food whole, your body is going to digest anything you ingest and cause to break down into a fairly soupy mess. Three hours of churning stomach acids are going to turn pretty much anything you eat into "pink liquid."
So, no, your body doesn't know how to magically separate the liquids from the solids. Sorry.
This place is just too funny....
how many children were tested? sorry, I didn't notice if it said.
Was it a controlled study?
Wasn't it just a few days ago that someone was being attacked about asking about the effects of Marijuana on a fetus, when there have also been studies that "prove" the "benefits". I'm not saying that its not true... but it is only one study.
I work in an academic library, so I have access to this article, but don't think the link will work if I post it. You can try going to https://oxfordjournals.org/, finding "International Journal of Epidemiology" in the 'Journals A-Z' box, click on it, click on "Journals Home Page" under the box, and looking for volume 38, issue 1, page 129 on the next screen by clicking on the Archive button.. It may be open access, so you might be able to find it and read the whole study for yourself, and gather your own conclusions on the research they did. It seems like they took the mother's word on how much she drank given a definition of what a "unit" of alcohol is.
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I don't want to write an essay or anything but, I have taken many classes, sessions and teaching special ed for 10 years, I think I have a fairly in-depth understanding of what is being discussed.
Driving a car doesn't necessarily have inherent risks, where as having a drink does.
I have had many students who's mom reported having an "occasional drink" during her pregnancy. Who's to say that their qualitative measurement is accurate? (Or mine or yours, for that matter?) What I do know is that FAE causes PHYSICAL changes in the child's brain and can cause an amazing array of problems for the child. Just because some potion of a test may rate higher than average by no means indicates that overall there is no harm/benefit for the child.
I am concerned because a quick decision, or a slip for that matter can effect not only the child, but the mom, family and community permanently.
Sorry if I wasn't clear before.
daisy: I've had many of those same experiences as a teacher. To me experiences do not trump studies. They just don't.
Im not saying this study is God. But I just think the reactions are amusing.
And driving a car doesn't have inherent risks?? REALLY? Why on earth do we wear seat belts then. Of course there are inherent risks to driving a car.
The plural of anecdote is data. I am surprised you didn't know that.
You can't really compare drinking during pregnancy, and car accidents...
You chose to drink, you didn't choose to get into a car accident. (just pointing out the flaw in the comparison.)
That doesn't make any sense. You choose to drive. You don't choose to get into an accident. You choose to drink. You don't choose to give your child FAS. They are both possible tragic consequences of a choice.
ETA: actually, driving is more dangerous than drinking. You can get killed even if you drive extremely carefully, obey all speed limits and traffic laws, whether it's because of a mechanical malfunction, weather condition or another driver. You cannot (according to all medical evidence currently available) give your baby FAS by having 6 ounces of wine once a week.
So, you can avoid the consequences of drinking by doing it carefully, but you cannot avoid the consequences of driving by doing it carefully.
It makes sense to me, because I feel like I more have to drive. I wasn't actually disagreeing with you, I just feel that you could have used a different comparison. (refer to the posts before that.) I don't know about you, but I would prefer to not have to drive, but seeing as I live 15 miles from my work, and 400 from my family, I do have to drive.
I never dissagreed with the study.
With this logic you might as well say, "Do whatever you want whenever you want to, because you could die in a car accident anyway."
That's the kind of logic the kids at school give me... they are teenagers! "I could die of a drug overdose? I could also die crossing the street! Crossing the street is dangerous. People get hit by cars every day."
Are you going to give your child FAS from drinking one glass of wine a week? The vast majority of research suggests absolutely not, but there are other studies that are still inconclusive about far milder issues that can arise from unknown amounts of alcohol. The other issue with alcohol is it lowers your inhibitions, so people who have one drink are more likely to have another or to make other bad decisions. I'm not saying every mother who has a drink is suddenly going to go guzzle down five more, but I bet a second drink happens more often than you would think. What does the research say about two drinks in a sitting? I don't have the answer to that.
The only argument I've seen here about a positive effect is that it relaxes the mother and it's better than taking drugs to do that. I think it's about time you learn how to relax yourself without drinking. Yoga also has the same effects. If you want to compare it to being on prescription anxiety medication, then yes, maybe an occasional glass of wine is better, but I don't have anxiety/stress issues so I see no need to have to occasionally calm myself through drinking.
There is a new book out called "Origins: How the Nine Months Before Birth Shape the Rest of our Lives." Fascinating & well documented. Basically, nobody KNOWS the answers to these questions. Experts used to think smoking, taking DES and doing Xrays while pregnant were good ideas too. We now know better. Why not be on the safe side and avoid the controversial stuff?
In this book the autor talks about how exposures/experiences in the womb can lead to health issues LATER IN LIFE. Personally, I was born with a heart defect that I did not know about until it caused problems at age 30. In this book, the autor refers to a study linking alcohol consumption to heart defects. I suspected my mom drank while she was pregnant so I asked her & she confirmed she did "a little." Doctors do not KNOW what causes the heart condition I had, but something caused it, and I was born with it. Now there are minor conerns it may affect my own pregnancy. I do wish my mom would've not risked anything while she was preggo with me. It's really not asking that much.
Anyway, I highly recommend this book. It is matter-of-fact written by a woman going thru her 2nd pregnancy.