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Babies: 0 - 3 Months
A compelling question.. Vaccinations
Hi girls. I've recently started researching vaccinations, and thought I'd come here and see what everyone else is thinking on the subject. I went to my DD's 2mo appointment and opted out of the vaccines *for now*, so I could follow up with some research before the deed is done. I've ordered two books (one by Dr. Sears, and another by Aviva Jill Rom) and have found a ton of really, really scary things on both sides. If I vaccinate, I am skipping Hep B, and Prevnar for now. Dtap right now is my main concern.
Some reasons I am leery of vaxing:
- Reactions.... I've heard awful stories about the terrible Dtap "scream" caused by brain swelling, seizures after the vaccine, and dozens of stories about babies suddenly dying of SIDs immediately after the Dtap vaccine. Coincidence?
- The chemicals... MRC-5 is in several vaccines my DD would have and it contains fetal cell lines, from aborted fetuses. Plus, other stuff like formaldehyde, and bovine extract.
- The fact that even if you do vaccinate, its not a definite thing that you won't get the disease at all. The pertussis vaccine is pretty much 50/50, AND in an infant it doesn't start any of its effectiveness until after 2 more boosters, which by then the infant is over 6months old, and out of the extreme danger zone of pertussis.
I however was raised thinking vaccines were all fine, everyone I KNOW is vaccinated (me included) and everyone is fine, that I know of. How do you decide? I am interested in talking to any of you ladies who might have researched this, esp if you came to the conclusion to vaccinate. There seems to be so many opinions on this, I am really just confused on what to do.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: A compelling question.. Vaccinations
Please, please, please consider talking to a medical professional (in person) before making this decision. There is a LOT of misinformation on the internet and in books. Unless you are capable of reading primary medical literature (as in you have an M.D. or Ph.D.) you should not be doing all of this research without a qualified person to interpret the data.
How did I decide? I have a Ph.D. in cell biology and my husband is a professor of immunolgy (Ph.D. as well). We did the research and talked to doctors. There is no data to suggest that vaccinating is more dangerous than the potential to acquire the life threatening diseases that vaccines prevent.
Pertussis is a fantastic example. First off, the vast majority of vaccinated kids develop immunity to pertussis. Second, pertussis is the leading cause of vaccine preventable death in infants. Third, there is currently the largest outbreak of pertussis in California in 50 years and many babies have already died. From what I recall. 50% of babies with pertussis will end up in the hospital. This is due to a drop in vaccination rates. Babies can get pertussis from other babies, but they primarily get it from their parents who are not current on boosters. This is an immediate and real public health problem.
The risk of vaccine reactions is infinitesimally small compared to the risk of acquiring a vaccine preventable disease.
And for what it is worth, MRC-5 is a cell line that yes, was derived from a 14 week fetus that was presumably the product of an abortion (but may not have been). The cell line was originally made in 1966. It is once cell line and not a continuously renewing product made from a fresh supply of fetuses.
And yes, bovine serum is used in cell culture. Cell culture is something that is employed for the research and development of any biologic medication/drug - from insulin, to viagra, to chemotherapies, to pain relievers, to antibiotics, to blood thinners, and on, and on, and on. If you are opposed to bovine serum being used in the production or research of drugs, you shouldn't take any drug, for any reason, ever. The same is true for the other "chemicals" that you are concerned about. If you consume a medication of any variety you can bet that there are "chemicals" involved.
I am certain that you are asking these questions because you are deeply concerned about the health of your child. The reality is the biggest threat to your child's health - that you have the power to do something about - is the set of diseases that you are considering not vaccinating against. I cannot stress enough how reckless the decision not to vaccinate is.
I will spare you my feelings on huge public health ramifications that lack of vaccinating can have and how I feel about people who opt out of vaccinating for arbitrary or "philosophical" reasons. Let's just say that few things make me angrier.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
Thank you... I am scouring resources, but no I am not a doctor which is why this IS scary for me. I want to do whats best for my child, which is why I'm researching. I'm not saying no to vaccines at all, I just want to know that if I do do them, I can feel confident/comfortable in that decision.
I have read many opposing arguements, pro-vaxers say the diseases have taken a steady decline since vaccinating began, but when you look at Pertussis for example, the disease has made a comeback. So what happened, isn't the vax supposed to keep the rates down? Pertussis vaccine does not STOP the baby from getting it, it simply slows the transmission. A vaccinated person can get pertussis still, but the vaccine can make the illness more mild, and take out the "whoop" factor.. so the question I am asking myself, is it worth loading my child up with chemicals, just to be given a 50/50 chance anyways? Plus, when you remove the normal symptoms of whooping cough, you could risk misreading the illness and not treating appropriately, and/or spreading the illness around. (FWIW, I did get the adult pertussis vaccine when my DD was born, before I began researching anything)
Also -- the dtap vaccine is not magically effective on its first dose for babies at 2mos. It requires boosters, so by the time the vaccine is at its peak effectiveness, the child is already 6mo, and at an age where pertussis is not as dangerous. So why is the dtap vax being pushed for babies, when a vaccinated 2mo is just as suseptible as a non- vaccinaed 2mo? The only difference is the unvaxed 2mo is spared of having an overload of chemicals at a young age.
I am not on either side -- I am just stating all the info I have gathered that makes me question vaccinating, and why I got started on this. I am VERY scared either way - I feel like I am potentially harming my child by vaccinating, but also if I don't vax because I have not found enough research on that end of the spectrum that says its totally safe, either. I would be very very interested in more info you might could give -- do you have any resources you can share? What about the reactions of vaccines, are there any worthy resources documenting this? Thanks for your time!
I decided that the idea of my child contracting a potentially fatal disease was far more scary than the idea of the vaccine. For the sake of your LO and the sake of public health, I hope your research brings you to the same conclusion.
We followed a slightly delayed vaccination schedule with DS #1 - under the guidance and approval of our family doctor - and we will do something similar with DS #2. We will, however, definitely be vaccinating our children. This is for their health and for the health of everyone around them. As more people choose not to vaccinate, or to skip certain vaccinations, we are experiencing outbreaks of dangerous illnesses that we had pretty well "licked" when we were growing up. And these outbreaks don't just affect babies and children.
Do your research, above all, talk to one or more medical professionals, and do your best to make the best decision for your LO.
Vaccines are not magical, but honestly, we are lucky to have them. They play a huge role in the good quality of life people enjoy in the developed world. They are not perfect and very little in life is 100% without risk. Just be sure to talk, in person, with a trusted doctor before making your decisions. Good for you for doing your best to educate yourself about your child's health.
I thank god for your presence on this board, epphd....and I'm an atheist. lol.
I just simply don't understand being terrified of vaccines.
I think if I do vax, it will be delayed/selective and my pedi agreed to work with me on this.
No, I have not made my mind up... infact, I was going to vax with no question, until 2-3 weeks ago when I came onto some anti-vax info that got me thinking, and now I am just kind of scared of both sides. It seems both sides have horror stories, and I am in the middle trying to weigh it all. It doesnt help that many resources are cloudy and its soo hard to decide who is reputable :
I believe in vaccines. Is there the tiniest risk of a side-effect? Yes. And could that side-effect be bad? Yes. But the risk is much smaller than the risk of contracting the disease. It freaks me out the posts about pertussis - I'm so glad we don't on the west coast. Remember, part of the argument for vaccinations is herd-immunity. Sure, vaccines won't protect your kid until they've had x boosters. But if all of the kids/people your kid comes into contact are up-to-date on their vaccines, your kid won't be exposed to said disease in the first place. That's one huge reason to vaccinate but a hard one to swallow.
I hope the people where I live - friends, neighbors, strangers all choose to vaccinate their children, so that when a kid with disease x comes around - no one is spreading it, making it that less likely that my baby (who is too young to be vaccinated yet) will come into contact with it. You have to think altruistically, and we don't live in a society that necessarily values that.
DD1 born 5/24/10.
Missed M/C at 14 wks Feb 2012.
DD2 born 5/14/13.
Missed M/C at 9 wks July 2015.
honestly, I personally think delaying is dumb as well. There is no real reason to do so. Its based on irrational fear instead of facts and science. Its simply to make parents feel better instead of having a real reason to do so.
BUT, thats better than not vaccinating at all.
I would not make a decision to just simply vaccine or not to vaccine, but rather decide on a case by case basis which vaccines are important in your situation. And I would add that just because there is no literature to say vaccines are not unsafe that therefore vaccines are safe for all individuals. There have been plenty of drugs approved by the FDA as safe that were later pulled from the market. We will never have perfect information. This is true with vaccines as well.
I agree with PP about pertussis -- and you might also consider getting an adult booster for yourself. Pertussis is a serious disease. But Hep B for an infant? I do not think that is worth the risk to the individual baby.
Also, I disagree with the idea that since you are not a doctor you cannot be adequately informed on the topic. I do happen to have a Ph.D. and understand how to read the literature, but I also think you can educate yourself. And you are the mother and as such ultimately responsible for your child's well-being.
I am joining this conversation late as well as lurking on this board. I just want to put in my 2c. I am an EMT in Georgia and recently there has been a Pertussis outbreak here. We have transported several infants from pediatrician's offices all over the county I work for to the children's hospital downtown. These kids are so sick, and it is heartbreaking to see them gasp for air and choke trying to breathe. The well meaning parents not only exposed their children to this disease, but the kids will now be exposed to every sickness imaginable in the ER of the hospital.
This may sound alarmist, but honestly it is something I have seen first hand and it is awful. Please take this in to consideration when making your decisions. This is not just a story, it is a reality that can be researched and verified. (If I am not mistaken there are several other states experiencing the same outbreaks),
The reason Pertussis has made a comeback is due to the decline in vaccinations. One of the most important aspects of immunization is "herd immunization" meaning if everyone is immunized those individuals who are either unable to have the vaccine for medical reasons or the incredible tiny minority where the vaccine is not effective are also safe due to the immunization of others preventing the spread of disease.
What the pertussis vaccine does is it prevents older, unvaccinated children from spreading pertussis to your newborn. It is 100% worth giving your child the vaccine, not just for the health of your child but for the health of all of the children around your child.
As far as dosing and the first time vacs goes the initial vaccine does confer a degree of immunity against the disease. It is not as effective as say a child who has had the whole series, but it does decrease the risk of your child contracting the disease.
There is absolutely no reason to not vaccinate your child. Take the advice of someone who does do research in this field. There is no data to support the concept of not vaccinating or delaying vaccination.
As far as looking at reactions and whatnot the CDC does do a good job of compiling all of the possible reactions, but keep in mind the chance of your child having a reaction is unbelieveably low. All reactions are compiled in a national database and are taken very seriously.
Please vaccinate your child.
1ht
The vaccine making pertussis more mild can be the difference between your baby being sick for a week or your baby dying.
it's all about herd immunity. the more people vaccinated the less likely outbreaks are to happen...also way more dangerous not to vaccinate your kids. vaccinations are the reason why polio and the such don't happen anymore. not vaccinating is the reason why measles and pertussis are making a comeback. people freaked about autism and vaccines and now there kids are getting measles and pertussis and other preventatble diseases.
there are horror stories for everything about raising children...
Ditto. I work in the medical field in California and we are experiencing the same exact thing. We've had several infant deaths due to LACK of vaccination against pertussis. In many cases, the parents lacked the vaccine and passed the disease on to their child.
I could never state this as intelligently as the first poster, but it is a fact that many diseases that were essentially erradicated from our society are making a comeback due to people being irresposible and not vaccinating their children.
As the first poster stated, there are also SERIOUS PUBLIC HEALTH CONCERNS that go along with this. People who don't vax do not only put their children at risk, they put the rest of us at risk because that child could very well pass on a deadly disease to others. Go talk to several doctors.
I've also read primary literature... I'm not a medical doctor, but am a trained researcher. There is no data to support the anti-vax movement or the delayed schedule. Our LO will be getting all vaccines on time.
I agree with all of the compelling reasons already given for vaccinating. I think the effectiveness of vaccines is part of what has led to the growing trend against vaccinating...people don't see the diseases and what they can do, but only hear the rare horror stories of vaccine reactions. I've read some of the medical literature, and the risks of adverse reaction are far less than the risk of the diseases. Anecdotal, of course, but I also had epiglottitis and needed a tracheotomy as a toddler from an inner ear infection that migrated. Having had a potentially life-threatening complication from something that is now vaccine preventable (Hib, in this case), I don't want to risk that with my own child.
All that said, for our kids we do space out the shots (not a delayed schedule, we just get whatever is due over the span of 2-4 weeks rather than all at once). They don't get more than one combo at a time, nor do they get more than one live virus vaccine at a time. We do that because I do have concerns over increased likelihood of drug interactions when given all at once, and because with older DD when we didn't do that she had a fever/lethargy for a few days that she didn't have with reducing the number she got at one sitting. We also wanted to be able to identify which specific vaccine caused a problem if she did have a reaction, so we wouldn't have to stop all of them if one caused a problem.
The happiest day of my life was when my ped told me not to worry about having contracted pertussis because my then 2.5 mos old had had his shots 2 weeks earlier and they should be effective.
Pertussis sucks as an adult... it can kill a baby.
I think it's irresponsible not vaccinate, if not for your own child's sake, for the sake of the entire population. My older daughter is a child who did have a pretty severe reaction to vaccines. After her 4 and 6 month shots she had a high fever (over 102) for a week straight that did not respond to tylenol. Following the second round of vaccines, her doctor and I agreed we would go down to one vaccine per visit and see if she tolerated them better (at that point it was still conjecture that it was a vaccine reaction and not picking up a bug in the Drs office). She has not had a reaction since and we have recently begun doing two at some visits without incident. We chose to put her sister on a modified Sears schedule right away because of her sister's reactivity and she has been fine. I'm the first one to say that I get incredibly nervous following vaccines since my daughter's reaction was not normal and was really scary. But, I also remember that if that's how she reacts to the vaccines, her reaction to the disease would be that much worse, so thank god I have access to vaccines to keep her safe and healthy.
I'll add that we have added a lot of visits in order to have our children vaccinated very close to schedule while trying to avoid overloading due to my older daughter's history. There are ways to fully vaccinate while adjusting for reactivity.
Do any of you have any hard numbers on the actual risk of disease? Or the % that gets the disease anyway after vaccination? I don't think a vaccine is a magic shot, children still get diseases even vaccinated and their amount of protection changes per vaccine.. all vaccines are not equal, some have lesser protection. For example, on the sounds of pertussis website, it specifically states the rates of effectiveness for pertussis vaccine being lower than that of tetanus.
Ironically, the woman who had the termination had to do so because she'd had rubella. If there had been a vaccine for rubella then she wouldn't have had to. I think she would be advocate #1 for using a vaccine that resulted from her personal tragedy.
I don't know if you vaccinated for HiB or not, but I'd also like to share the fact that my dad's sister was born before the HiB vaccine existed and she died of meningitis at two months after contracting HiB. Over fifty years later, I still hear the pain in my grandfather's voice when he talks about losing that tiny baby, how they rushed to the doctor's office in the middle of the night, how the baby started seizing and finally just stopped breathing and she was gone. There was nothing they could do - they suffered terribly having to bury their daughter, knowing they were powerless to stop or prevent the disease.
You CAN do something about it. There are many things in life you can't do anything about, many dangers to your child that you cannot stop, but this is something you CAN do something about.
But the vaccines aren't just about preventing the disease entirely. You kind of dismiss making the disease milder like it's no big deal, but it IS a big deal. Even if you can't stop your baby from contracting pertussis, don't you still want her to get a milder case instead of a case that could kill her?
It's kind of like saying antibiotics are useless because they can't totally stop you from ever getting an infection in the first place.
babies die from chicken pox. And rotavirus.
I don't get why so many on these boards think those vax are optional.
Here is a clinical paper that studied this
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14595048
The median duration of cough in DT recipients (those who did not receive the pertussis vaccine) varied from 52 to 61 days across the 3 stages, whereas the median duration of cough in DTaP recipients varied from 29 to 39 days. The median duration of spasmodic cough varied from 20 to 45 days in DT recipients and from 14 to 29 days in DTaP recipients. The results of the analysis of variance models showed that vaccination against pertussis reduced the length of cough from 3 to 10 days and the length of spasmodic cough from 4 to 8 days.
One side is based on science, studies, and facts. The other on random correlations that have no proven causation. Aka: paranoia.