Would this be alarming to you?

CleoKitty

You have a son who is somewhat high-needs. As a toddler/preschooler he doesn't tolerate seeing his mother with another baby. Whenever you are around friends/families with babies your son does everything within his power to hurt them or make them cry. He's been known to hit and kick friends' babies out of jealously, especially if you're holding someone else's baby. Your friends are hesitant to invite you over to their house because of the way he has been known to treat their infants and younger toddlers.

Your son is now 5 y/o and you have a second child. The new baby is only a couple weeks old and the 5 y/o tries to purposely flip the carseat over when the newborn is in it, smash/smoosh her face, etc.

If this was your family, would you be concerned? Is it within the realm of normal sibling rivalry in your opinion or do you think it's an indicator of something more serious?  If so, at what point do you think you would perhaps seek some professional help with your son?

KrisBriMcBunny

I would be extremely alarmed especially if he was doing this not just with a friend's baby but with his own bably sibling.

KoriBrett

I would lean more toward finding ways of helping the kid cope, and spending a little more one-on-one time w/the kid, and getting help with that, rather than assume anything's wrong with said kid.  Said kid has had 5 years to be the center of attention and is old enough to be pissed off about losing that.

LanaM

extremely alarmed & seeking help or some ways to help the 5 y.o. child.

ppants

When my twins were younger they would be very jealous if I held, touched, or talked to another baby, but never tried to hurt the child.  They would want to sit on my lap or my attention.  I would be very concerned with a 5 yr child wanting to physically harm someone.

Marce921

KoriBrett:

I would lean more toward finding ways of helping the kid cope, and spending a little more one-on-one time w/the kid, and getting help with that, rather than assume anything's wrong with said kid.  Said kid has had 5 years to be the center of attention and is old enough to be pissed off about losing that.

This. While I think that he's acting out in "extreme" ways, I think he has a right to be a little pissed about his baby sibling's arrival. Though, I wouldn't be leaving him alone with the baby by any means.

Jodi&Joe

PMQ:

I have no idea if it's considered "within the realm of normal sibling rivalry" but that behaviour sounds disturbing enough to me that I would absolutely seek some guidance to deal with the issue. I couldn't imagine being afraid of my 5 year old, whether I was personally afraid or afraid for other children makes no difference to me.

Well said.

(And not normal...at all.  I could see maybe ONCE the child doing this.  And even that is a stretch but ok, once.  To get a reaction, etc.  But to repeatedly do this.  No.  Violence should always be a red flag!)

shouldbworkin

Yes, I would be concerned.  I would be doing everything I could to make sure my 5 y/o knows that I have plenty of love to give. 

joseysbride

I would have been concerned way before the second baby was ever born.  If they have tried all the usual punishments for being violent, and nothing works, then I would absolutely seek more help.  All kids go through normal phases, and I think this is included, but if it has been going on for more than, say, 6 months...that's not a phase.

kittycarr

I am no professional but for this to be a constant thing, I would think it's more serious than normal sibling rivalry.  Ethan acted out a little bit when Brooke came along but not until she was a few months old.  Then it was only short-lived.  Now they fight like hell but nothing out of the ordinary - now or then.

CleoKitty

KoriBrett:

I would lean more toward finding ways of helping the kid cope, and spending a little more one-on-one time w/the kid, and getting help with that, rather than assume anything's wrong with said kid.  Said kid has had 5 years to be the center of attention and is old enough to be pissed off about losing that.

Suppose you're already doing all of those things and that the child's desire to hurt infants/toddlers younger than himself is has been very strong and very apparent since well before you even got pregnant with #2? As a matter of fact, this fear is one of the reasons you waited so long to have a second child in the first place.

As an outside observer whose newborn suffered his wrath on several occasions (including one very hard punch to the head that made me want to hurt HIM!) I can honestly say that the child seems to actually derive pleasure from making babies cry. Another mutual friend has experienced the exact same thing and concurs with my observations, the child has also hurt her younger dd more than once. 

Jodi&Joe

"I can honestly say that the child seems to actually derive pleasure from making babies cry. Another mutual friend has experienced the exact same thing and concurs with my observations, the child has also hurt her younger dd more than once."

I don't even think you need the opinions of the people here.  It's quite obvious this kid is effed up and needs help. 

KoriBrett

In that case, Cleo, yes help.  Because in all honesty my brother was like that as a young kid - lots of therapy, some inpatient at UofMich, more outpatient....  6 diff middle and elem. schools... 

When he was 2 he tried to kill my older sisters w/a butcher knife.  They were babysitting him, IDK how he got it.  But they locked themselves in the bathroom for 4 hours until someone came home.  They had to get a new door.  Normal 2 year olds don't have that kind of attn span, ya know?? 

Obviously there are many other things, but that's just one example.  Anyway, sounds similar in the focused anger/pleasure from hurting others department. 

LinzDavid

Based on your follow up yes I would be alarmed and try to get any help that I could.  What if the parent turns their backs for a moment and something really bad happens.

CleoKitty

KoriBrett:

In that case, Cleo, yes help.  Because in all honesty my brother was like that as a young kid - lots of therapy, some inpatient at UofMich, more outpatient....  6 diff middle and elem. schools... 

When he was 2 he tried to kill my older sisters w/a butcher knife.  They were babysitting him, IDK how he got it.  But they locked themselves in the bathroom for 4 hours until someone came home.  They had to get a new door.  Normal 2 year olds don't have that kind of attn span, ya know?? 

Obviously there are many other things, but that's just one example.  Anyway, sounds similar in the focused anger/pleasure from hurting others department. 

I didn't want to include this earlier because I'm not sure that it's fair or even relevant to mention, but there is a history of very severe mental illness in this child's family.  It's hard to explain, but there is just something that is very different or "off" about this child. Mutual friends have agreed and have also wondered about the possibility of these being some very early warning signs of something more serious, you know?

I feel so horrible for the friend in this situation. She loves her son so much and I know that she just wants to protect him (and the new baby too, of course.)

Jodi&Joe

Protecting him from himself is what he needs right now....in the form of therapy!  That's how she can protect him!

And Kori --- my younger sister was like that growing up.  Thrived off of having others fear her.  (Actually, she is still sort of like that but in a less violent manner).  But she used to chase me around the house with knives, scissors, the beater bar to the vaccuum, etc.

Hearing someone else describe someone like that makes me think "Man, that person is EFFED UP!"  And then it makes me realize just how effed up she was/is.  But day to day, I just think "Eh, it's just N!"  Weird, huh?!

AggieCouple

TB is *extremely* jealous of other babies if I or H hold them.  He doesn't even like it when ML hugs other babies.  He doesn't try to hurt them, but he has tried to separate them from me or H, or has gone into another room, slammed the door and started howling.  What is strange is: he acts this way when we are at other people's houses and with his new baby cousin, Brayson, when Brayson's parents are around (including at our house).  But when we babysat Brayson, he was totally fine with it.  It was like, he realized I was the caretaker at that point, and allowed me to hold the baby.  He was, however, a little extra clingy with H.

I think the tendency toward these feelings are very natural. I've seen other children act this way.  ML, who was always OK with my handling other babies, had an extremely traumatic 6 months after TB was born. 

The tendency to express these feelings through violence, however, may a learned behavior and is worrisome.  I think violent behavior needs to be addressed, either through the parents' education in how to treat it, or if it's extreme, through professional intervention.  All kids pick up violent behavior, from a variety of sources: their parents' discipline methods, other kids, TV, etc.  I think this is a separate issue, even though they are tied.  He needs to be taught more productive methods of expressing his frustration in all aspects of life, not just this particular feeling.

KoriBrett

"all kids pick up violent behavior, from a variety of sources"

Not always.  Sometimes it really is just a kid wired wrong from the start, believe me. 

DandelionMom

Quite alarming.  Gracie gets a little upset when I hold other babies but she is fine with a little reassurance and has never lashed out at the baby.  I think this is the kind of thing that family therapy would be really good for, asap. 

hopefulmom

I'm surprised that his teachers haven't picked up on this (if he is 5 I am thinking he goes to school?).  If not then...yes, he needs professional help.  I have a friend with a grandson like this.  It started just like you describe...although he was 4 when his brother was born.  He started by trying to hurt other kids and then his brother.  He would also do injury to himself if he didn't get the "attention" he craved.  They tried all kinds of medications, etc. but finally it go so bad (when he was 12) that they had to institutionalize him.  They could no longer even bring him home on week-ends by the time he was 14.  He was just too strong physically and too violent to others...they could not control him.  In the "school" he acted out as well and many time had to be restrained...even on medications.  He is now an adult...probably 23-24 and will NEVER be able to live on his own or outside the institution.  It is really sad because it started out with everyone thinking he just was "delayed".  Unfortunately, it wasn't the case.  The child needs help NOW.  Hopefully, you can convince his parents before he seriously injures his sibling.

AggieCouple

I didn't mean violent behavior only comes from external influences. I meant, little kids getting violent is pretty normal because all kids pick it up, even those "wired right". 

femmegem

Holy crap. Yes, that would alarm me.

Chrisy-Wyobride

YES!!!  Actually this describes my brother's attitude toward me.  We were almost 6yrs apart.  He made my home life MISERABLE until the day he moved out (he was like 19 so I was about 13).  I would say that he borderline tortured me--physically, mentally & emotionally abuse for sure...literally he hated me from the moment I was born.  I have proof of it on old high8 movies of my as a little toddler being pushed down, etc by him.  When older he would physically hurt me very badly & then blackmail me so I wouldn't tell.  He also teased & taunted me relentlessly (often w/ my other older brother who was 2yrs older than me).  I honestly think this is why I have not had boy kids--I think God knows I would freak out if my son did anything to a younger sibling. Honestly I harbor some ill will to this day toward him & my parents.  I would seek professional help asap.

CleoKitty

hopefulmom:

I'm surprised that his teachers haven't picked up on this (if he is 5 I am thinking he goes to school?).  If not then...yes, he needs professional help.  I have a friend with a grandson like this.  It started just like you describe...although he was 4 when his brother was born.  He started by trying to hurt other kids and then his brother.  He would also do injury to himself if he didn't get the "attention" he craved.  They tried all kinds of medications, etc. but finally it go so bad (when he was 12) that they had to institutionalize him.  They could no longer even bring him home on week-ends by the time he was 14.  He was just too strong physically and too violent to others...they could not control him.  In the "school" he acted out as well and many time had to be restrained...even on medications.  He is now an adult...probably 23-24 and will NEVER be able to live on his own or outside the institution.  It is really sad because it started out with everyone thinking he just was "delayed".  Unfortunately, it wasn't the case.  The child needs help NOW.  Hopefully, you can convince his parents before he seriously injures his sibling.

 He's in a preschool now and even though I don't know any of the details I am aware that he's had issues with aggression, the parents have had to meet with the head of the school, etc. Reportedly the parents are unhappy with the way the school has addressed the issues, but again, I don't know specifically what made them unhappy. I will say, however, that the parents absolutely do not use any sort of punishment, will not use time-outs, etc. They try to talk and reason with him and frankly, it doesn't work.  I imagine that the parents would be displeased with any sort of consequence that the school might try to impose.

All that being said, he starts kindergarten in a public school this coming fall. Mutual friend (a kindergarten teacher herself) and I agree that once he gets to public school that the parents are going to be forced to address some of his issues whether they like it or not. I'm betting this kid isn't going to be in the public school system for long before he ends up with some sort of evaluation and/or intervention. 

I should also add that there is absolutely no way this child has any sort of delays. If anything it's quite the opposite- he is a very sharp, smart boy. 

Angela814

Wow. What a horrible situation for everyone involved.

I agree I would be very concerned. I would have been concerned with the violence before my 2nd DC was born. Your whole description reminds me of the movie The Good Son.