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libbyann
member
I just have to say it.
libbyann
member
Flame away - I don't really care at this point. I'm not trying to start CIO/non-CIO drama because I believe that it's an individual choice for every family. I can't tell you that CIO is bad when it works for your family and at the same time, you can't tell me non-CIO is bad because it's worked for my family (talking to the collective you, here).
But I have to say this. You cannot tell me that baby sleep difficulties transfer to adults. Insomnia in an adult does NOT come from someone not doing sleep training with their child. If Will develops insomnia in 20 years, it is absolutely not because I didn't Ferberize him when he was a year old and having sleep issues. Yes, babies and adults alike have issues with sleep. But baby sleep problems do not cause adult sleep problems.
Feel free to point me to research that says otherwise, but until then, I'm standing behind the statement I made in CJ's post. Some babies ARE crappy sleepers and I do believe that they can figure it out for themselves when given time and patience. That may mean 5 years for one baby and 11 months for another. But I don't believe any child will go from infancy through adulthood never sleeping for more than an hour or two at a time.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: I just have to say it.
52 Choices For Better Health
I agree with you to a point - I doubt that most children would go through their entire lives without sleeping more than an hour or two at a time - can you imagine!? I also completely agree that sleep problems are not the fault of the parents (in that, some babies just sleep better than others), and that you do not have to do CIO if you aren't comfortable with it.
I guess I see "figure it out for themselves" as doing literally nothing. Not working on routines, or using any no cry techniques, and basically hoping for the best. I disagree that every child will be able to learn to sleep well in those circumstances. I don't know of any research to back this up so I of course could be totally wrong, but I do think that some adult sleep problems can be traced to not learning how to sleep well as a child. For example, I have a lot of trouble falling asleep and I always have. I never had a bedtime, I was just up until I crashed from exhaustion. I have worked to kind of "retrain" myself to fall asleep when I'm just a normal amount of tired, but I do think that it's possible that it's been the same issue from childhood to adulthood. I could be wrong of course
I hope you didn't take offense when I agreed with that statement in the other thread, because I definitely did not intend for that. I do not think that you have to use CIO, and I would never look at a poorly sleeping adult and say "Oh, his mom should have let him cry!" I don't even "blame" my own mom for my current bad sleep. I'm sorry if I upset you at all!
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I never said that it did. I raised the possibility. I haven't done the research, and quite honestly I don't care to. Its not that important to me.
The Healthy Sleep Habits, Healthy Child book does have sections on sleep issues with kids and teenagers. I haven't read them, because luckily Jakob sleeps just fine.
I think it makes sense, though. My mom has always said that I was a crappy sleeper as a baby. I remember having trouble sleeping as a child. I would lie awake for hours, unable to fall asleep. That didn't end until I had a baby and would fall asleep out of sheer exhaustion.
I didn't take offense to anything anyone said
But I still don't believe it until someone shows me the research. I looked up causes of insomnia (I realize there are other adult sleep issues, but this was the most common one I could think of) and there isn't one single thing on any site I've looked at that says "difficulty sleeping as a baby."
Rach - I don't mean do nothing either. When I said "on their own" I meant "not crying it out." We don't CIO, but we do take lots of measures to help him sleep at night. Routine, consistency, etc.
The point of this whole post was that sleep issues as a baby do not CAUSE sleep issues as an adult. Sure, there may be a few cases where they correlate. But I'm pretty sure that there's no research out there that says that it causes it.
Here's my exact response in the other thread:
Libby ~ I disagree that crappy sleepers will fix themselves all the time. Pleny of adults have sleep issues and insomnia, who's to say that didn't start when they were a baby?
I didn't say that non-CIO babies will develop sleep issues as adults. I didn't say that babies will never fix their own sleep issues. Layna is a crappy sleeper, for all I know she will still be a crappy sleeper as an adult.
If you took such issue with that comment, why didn't you just page me or respond to it directly?
(and can I just say that I see my typo from the original post and I'm itching to fix it)
I'm guessing she didn't page you directly, etc, because you aren't the only one that says it. Maybe in that post you were, but it's a fairly common sentiment that is thrown at anti-CIO families.
I didn't page you directly because I wasn't talking just to you. And like I said, I didn't take offense to it, but I do not think it is a correct statement. I figured it wouldn't get seen if I replied in CJ's post since it had pretty much died down, so I created my own thread for it.
I'm not attacking you and had no intentions of singling you out.
My mom said that I was an awful baby to get to sleep, and guess what? I sleep like a rock now. I have always been able to go to sleep and get 9 hours a night.
I don't think sleep habits as a baby have anything to do with sleep habits as an adult.
Austin started sttn at 7 weeks. Now, he hates going to sleep. I don't push the issue. When he is tired, he will sleep. I couldn't stand to hear/watch my child CIO every night. I probably don't do anything by the 'book'.
Fair enough. Thanks for explaining
Deja vu. I feel like I read this post a few months ago... and then a few months before that.
I will say one thing.
I have severe insomnia. Mine started in middle school and went away for a few years in HS but it started coming back when I was about 18.
I take ambian CR to get me to sleep and keep me asleep. With out it I only sleep 3 hours a night and even that is broken up usually in half but I have gone 2 days with out sleeping. It sucks to say the least.
I slept like a rock as a kid. My mom would vacuum around me when I was 4 months old with out me waking up. I could sleep through everything in elementary school.Now it's a struggle. I've taken everything, done everything and been through several sleep studies. I wake up between 85-100 times a night. I never hit REM sleep, ever. My first trimester I slept for 5 hours a night with the help of Ambian and thought that was pure heaven. I still take it even though I'm pregnant.
Sleep problems developed over time and some kids are just bad sleepers and some adults are bad sleepers. I have no experience of babies, just adults.
While I agree with you in a lot of ways (i.e. I don't think a crappy sleeping baby who isn't Ferberized CAUSES an insomniac adult), I DO think that patterns set in infancy with sleep CAN cause adult sleep problems. I am a crappy sleeper myself, and after reading Ferber, I am convinced it is caused at least in part by the fact that my parents NEVER set good sleep guidlines for me as an infant, child, teen, etc.
I also disagree that all babies will "figure it out." I really, truly believe from the bottom of my heart that if we had not Ferberized baby A, that she would have always had some sort of disturbed sleep patterns.
It is absolutely not right for everyone, and I don't think it's the only answer, and I don't think that if you DON'T CIO that you will wind up with a bad sleeper later in life...and I also believe that some babies who are crappy sleepers WILL work it out for themselves. I think mommies know what the reality is for their particular child, mommies intuitively can tell when something about their child is becoming or will become an ongoing, lifelong problem, and mommies know what will work and what won't for their child.
Well, this is probably going to get me totally flammed but I'm going to post it here nonetheless. I am reading a fascinating book about brain development and implications for raising children. This book covers all sorts of things but one of the chapters focuses on the idea of co-sleeping, bed-sharing, and sleep training. What the book actually sites is data showing an huge increase in sleep disturbances in adolescents, teens, and adults that correlates with our society moving away from co-sleeping/bed-sharing to this idea of sleep training and CIO. Essentially, the authors propose that these methods go against nature and the way the human brain is wired. They go so far as to suggest these methods are causing the increased rates of sleep disturbances. At one point the author said "sleep studies" for insomnia were unheard of in the mid-1900's, when essentially all families co-slept to some degree (either adults with children or several children in a room together). They say our modern day lack of nightime parenting is causing the sleep issues we are seeing now.
In addition, they point to other modern day countries, where co-sleeping and bed-sharing are still the norm. These societies have very low rates of sleep disturbances in adulthood. In addition, they see extremely low rates of SIDS. According to this book, in China, where co-sleeping is the norm, there is not even a word for SIDS because the rate of unexplained infant death is so low.
So I don't know. There is definitely interesting date out there. Does correlation equal causation... of course not. However, I can't help but raise an eyebrow at some of this data. Am I suggesting all of the Feber families have now destined their child to adult sleep problems? No way. There is no data suggesting that either. It's just interesting. Too many questions and no real studies to answer them.
No flames here! I'd love to know the name of the book/author.
ditto!
52 Choices For Better Health
Ditto
That is interesting data, but I spot holes in that research six ways from Sunday. (And by no means am I flaming you, by the way, just offering another perspective on that research
) I would venture to say that there aren't reported incidents of insomnia, child sleep disturbances, and the like from China and other cultures or from our own culture prior to midcentury because things like that just weren't reported. Or researched. Or talked about. (I mean, is the rate of SIDS low in China because it doesn't exist, or because there are millions of people living in extreme rural areas where no one outside their own family or community would ever know if an infant died? Who knows.) And in a lot of those cultures, I would think that sleep disturbances are just not diagnosed as they are here, nor are those societies living on the kind of time clock we here in N.America do. You live in some rural African community, you have a sleep problem, and you go see your local medicine man..he gives you some kind of root herb, and you're cured. Doesn't mean there aren't adult (or child) sleep problems, regardless of their sleeping practices.
While I do agree that cosleeping and the like are excellent practices that hearken back to a much simpler time where families were much more bonded than they seem to be in our culture today, given that we DO have an entirely different culture today, cosleeping and other practices don't always work for every family. I know, we tried it!! I wanted nothing more than to be the best damn Attachement Parenting family on the planet, but you know what? NONE of us slept well, and we had to try something different. Maybe if DH and I lived in some village in Eurasia somewhere and didn't have a 9-5 job to get to, it might have worked. But in our culture, our lifestyle, and our family, it didn't.
So all that to say in an extremely roundabout way that I don't think that research holds much water.
I'm willing to try anything in hopes Jack never has to go through what I deal with every day.
I've so totally missed some posts being out of town. I'll just say that be confident in your decision. Don't worry about what someone else on a chat board has to say. I've never heard of infant sleep issues being related to adult sleep issues. (I think adults do enough to disrupt their own sleep frankly.) If someone doesn't support your approach - that's fine. It's your choice for your child and family and be confident in that. Just b/c someone does something different doesn't mean what you did is wrong - even if they tell you it is. Be confident in your own decisions.
(This is meant for all of us!!)
I'm just waking up from my 5 hour "nap" after working nightshift. The only 5 hours of sleep I'll get in about 40 hours. So that's my excuse for this not being more precise/concise.
I do believe sleep problems as a child transfer to adulthood although it may or may not translate directly to sleep itself. Think about what you're saying. "How my child sleeps now doesn't impact how my child will sleep (or be?)later". That's not possible. Everything else your child is doing now is impacting how they will be later in life. Their interpersonal attachments. What they eat. How they respond to affection. Their vocabulary and brain development. The way they tie their shoes. EVERYTHING is a building block to the adult they will become one day and sleep (being a large part of their day and an important part of growth in general) is a cornerstone of a human body. Every moment of everyday they are building synapses - brain connections. The brain isn't going to ignore what's going on for 12+ hours a day.
Do I believe that a child who wakes up every hour right now is destined to have insomnia for life? No. But I do think it's helpful in the short and long run to help our children fulfill one of the most basic acts of existance which is to fall asleep - By themselves, in a quiet place, without anything moving or in their mouth. That's how we all sleep right? DH doesn't count. I don't fall asleep with DH there more than half the time. As for what's right in early infancy/childhood - that can be debated. Obviously things are a bridge right? Breastmilk/formula -> Food. Supervision->free play. Crawling->walking. But ultimately, from assisted sleep, your goal as a parent should be unassisted sleep. in my very humble sleep deprived opinion. CIO is one way of getting that plan back on track for the health and wellbeing of the child. Like anything it has pros and cons and like most parental decisions, it's one not made lightly.
Crappy sleep ins't good for anyone. We need REM sleep and you just can't possibly get enough it if you're waking up every couple of hours or not getting enough in a day. Trust me, I speak from experience!!!
I'm replying pretty late but here goes anyway.
I would never have chosen to do CIO/ Ferber if I had been able to see another option. I did *not* chose it because I thought it would have any effect on her sleep down the road. My parents did CIO with me and my siblings. I have had insomnia for most of my life. My siblings were *terrible* sleepers once they were no longer contained by a crib. My parents were horrified that I would consider co-sleeping with Kate as an infant and yet my brother and sister slept in my parents bed from the time they were about 2 until they were about 9! Though in later years they were on a mattress on the floor. They started off in their beds but woke up every night and went to my parents' room. Personally, I miss having Kate in my bed.
We made the choice to CIO because Kate's lack of sleep (especially during the day) was making her super cranky all the time. Her night wakings did not seem to bother her, and while I will admit to being exhausted, we probably would have continued with things the way they were if she had continued to thrive and be happy.
I agree with Libby. I think that some people are genetically good sleepers and some are genetically bad sleepers. I think that we as parents can have an impact on that, but Kate was probably going to take years to sleep through the night unlike my friend's baby who was a perfect sleeper from birth. We both coslept and nursed on demand all night long. Her son just learned how to sleep independently much easier and with no crying.