I know this totally nit-picky, but I just HAVE to say it. When you go to your big u/s you are not finding out the "gender" of your baby... you are finding out the SEX. They are not the same thing.
K, that's it.
Well, I find this interesting, because in my experience most people find out the "sex" of their baby and immediately start making plans based on that...i.e, nursery colors, registry choices, etc. Then aren't you truly finding out the "gender?" I think it is impossible not to find out the "sex" of your baby and immediately begin thinking about it's "gender." SO I don't think this is such a big deal.
Not to knock some of you who find this to be a pet peeve, we all have our little things. This is just my opinion.
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And I'm shocked that some people have no clue there is a difference!
Really? I'm not.
This. I consider myself fairly well educated and I'm nit-picky enough with words (difference between further and farther, anyone?), but I never knew there was a difference.
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So finding out the sex is just learning the bits, but then you make decisions (name, nursery, baby clothes, etc.) based on gender, so you really are finding out both.
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Well, I find this interesting, because in my experience most people find out the "sex" of their baby and immediately start making plans based on that...i.e, nursery colors, registry choices, etc. Then aren't you truly finding out the "gender?" I think it is impossible not to find out the "sex" of your baby and immediately begin thinking about it's "gender." SO I don't think this is such a big deal.
Not to knock some of you who find this to be a pet peeve, we all have our little things. This is just my opinion.
I get what you're saying - our culture definitely "connects" sex and gender. Blue for boys, pink for girls, etc. But when you go to your big u/s, you're not looking for baseballs vs. tiaras, you're looking for penis vs. vagina.
The difference becomes a bigger deal when people believe that sex and gender must always match. It's why transgendered people are subjected to a lot of prejudice/ridicule, why we have to single out a girl for being a "tomboy" just because she likes to climb trees and play ball, why boys are accused of being "homos" because they like musicals or play with dolls, etc.
And I'm shocked that some people have no clue there is a difference!
Really? I'm not.
This. I consider myself fairly well educated and I'm nit-picky enough with words (difference between further and farther, anyone?), but I never knew there was a difference.
I'm not shocked either, I'm not a moron, and I had no clue there was a difference., nor do I really care about the slight difference, especially when it's mainly a difference when used explicitly in context.
I understand what you are saying but it doesn't add up. This is the example: A person who was born biologically a man but feels that they are woman. This person lives their life as a woman and has no identification with being a man (a pre-operation transsexual). If they are to fill out a survey and it has "gender" they would put "Female" where as if it said "sex" they would put "Male"? Even deeper how do you explain "gender reassignment" surgery? They go in and change the external sexual organs. So they aren't changing the sex just the gender? Not trying to be an azz just trying to figure out how this works.
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There definitely is a difference. It's a lot more complicated that sex=biology and gender=culture, but it's the easiest way to think of it. Those categories become under question especially when it comes to transsexual and transgender individuals, which are also two different things.
Look at history or different cultures, the two sex-two gender dichotomy is an invention. Many cultures have more than two genders and historical understandings of the body have only recently (i'm saying the last 500 years) have people thought of everyone having only one of two sexes.
One fun example is Thomas Laqeuer's Making Sex. He talks about how historically people thought there was only one sex, male, and women as we know them were just inverted males. During that time period, it was believed that both people having sex needed to orgasm to get pregnant! I wish it was still thought haha! By the way that idea was ruined when a monk had sex with what he believed to be a corpse, but was actually a woman in a coma. She woke up and was pregnant, which discovered that women did not need an orgasm to conceive. Bummer!
Well, I find this interesting, because in my experience most people find out the "sex" of their baby and immediately start making plans based on that...i.e, nursery colors, registry choices, etc. Then aren't you truly finding out the "gender?" I think it is impossible not to find out the "sex" of your baby and immediately begin thinking about it's "gender." SO I don't think this is such a big deal.
Not to knock some of you who find this to be a pet peeve, we all have our little things. This is just my opinion.
I get what you're saying - our culture definitely "connects" sex and gender. Blue for boys, pink for girls, etc. But when you go to your big u/s, you're not looking for baseballs vs. tiaras, you're looking for penis vs. vagina.
The differencebecomes a bigger deal when people believe that sex and gender must always match. It's why transgendered people are subjected to a lot of prejudice/ridicule, why we have to single out a girl for being a "tomboy" just because she likes to climb trees and play ball, why boys are accused of being "homos" because they like musicals or play with dolls, etc.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I find the automatic connection that most people have between sex & gender (as PP said, boys do this/act this way but girls do this/act this way) a little...I don't know...presumptive.
What if your child chooses something outside what society says is "okay"? That's where this discussion gets interesting, IMO.
I know its not technically correct, but I prefer to say gender. I work in a daycare and I'm not able or comfortable saying sex in front of the kids. It carries over outside of work.
By the way that idea was ruined when a monk had sex with what he believed to be a corpse, but was actually a woman in a coma. She woke up and was pregnant, which discovered that women did not need an orgasm to conceive. Bummer!
I understand what you are saying but it doesn't add up. This is the example: A person who was born biologically a man but feels that they are woman. This person lives their life as a woman and has no identification with being a man (a pre-operation transsexual). If they are to fill out a survey and it has "gender" they would put "Female" where as if it said "sex" they would put "Male"? Even deeper how do you explain "gender reassignment" surgery? They go in and change the external sexual organs. So they aren't changing the sex just the gender? Not trying to be an azz just trying to figure out how this works.
A man who lives as a woman is still biologically male. Also, a man who has gender reassignment surgery is also still male, biologically.
There are also women who are are XY chromosomally. Due to androgen insensitivity they look like women, and are usually raised as women and no one is the wiser until they never menstruate and it turns out their internal sex organs aren't female, and their chromosomes are XY. So for all intents and purposes, they are women. But biologically, they're male. Really, gender studies is an absolutly fascinating field.
And I'm shocked that some people have no clue there is a difference!
Really? I'm not.
This. I consider myself fairly well educated and I'm nit-picky enough with words (difference between further and farther, anyone?), but I never knew there was a difference.
I'm not shocked either, I'm not a moron, and I had no clue there was a difference., nor do I really care about the slight difference, especially when it's mainly a difference when used explicitly in context.
This. I vaguely remember reading something about this at some point in my education, but I definitely didn't remember the difference right off the bat.
And I'm shocked that some people have no clue there is a difference!
Really? I'm not.
This. I consider myself fairly well educated and I'm nit-picky enough with words (difference between further and farther, anyone?), but I never knew there was a difference.
I'm not shocked either, I'm not a moron, and I had no clue there was a difference., nor do I really care about the slight difference, especially when it's mainly a difference when used explicitly in context.
this.
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I understand what you are saying but it doesn't add up. This is the example: A person who was born biologically a man but feels that they are woman. This person lives their life as a woman and has no identification with being a man (a pre-operation transsexual). If they are to fill out a survey and it has "gender" they would put "Female" where as if it said "sex" they would put "Male"? Even deeper how do you explain "gender reassignment" surgery? They go in and change the external sexual organs. So they aren't changing the sex just the gender? Not trying to be an azz just trying to figure out how this works.
A man who lives as a woman is still biologically male. Also, a man who has gender reassignment surgery is also still male, biologically. There are also women who are are XY chromosomally. Due to androgen insensitivity they look like women, and are usually raised as women and no one is the wiser until they never menstruate and it turns out their internal sex organs aren't female, and their chromosomes are XY. So for all intents and purposes, they are women. But biologically, they're male. Really, gender studies is an absolutly fascinating field.
The biological aspect isn't the confusing part. If a pre-operation transsexual lives as what we consider a woman based on our culture (traditional American) but are biologically male, if they filled out two separate surveys where one says "Sex" and the other says "Gender" they would put two different things? Also based on, "and their chromosomes are XY" they would be woman, yes? Since your sex is determined by your chromosonal makeup. Question: "Is sex determined by chromosomes or external organs?" I can accept that there are not just two genders (for argument's sake) but how do we classify sex?
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I'm so glad I'm not the only person who thinks this. I thought maybe I took one too many multicultural comm and gender studies classes in college or something
I understand what you are saying but it doesn't add up. This is the example: A person who was born biologically a man but feels that they are woman. This person lives their life as a woman and has no identification with being a man (a pre-operation transsexual). If they are to fill out a survey and it has "gender" they would put "Female" where as if it said "sex" they would put "Male"? Even deeper how do you explain "gender reassignment" surgery? They go in and change the external sexual organs. So they aren't changing the sex just the gender? Not trying to be an azz just trying to figure out how this works.
A man who lives as a woman is still biologically male. Also, a man who has gender reassignment surgery is also still male, biologically. There are also women who are are XY chromosomally. Due to androgen insensitivity they look like women, and are usually raised as women and no one is the wiser until they never menstruate and it turns out their internal sex organs aren't female, and their chromosomes are XY. So for all intents and purposes, they are women. But biologically, they're male. Really, gender studies is an absolutly fascinating field.
The biological aspect isn't the confusing part. If a pre-operation transsexual lives as what we consider a woman based on our culture (traditional American) but are biologically male, if they filled out two separate surveys where one says "Sex" and the other says "Gender" they would put two different things? Also based on, "and their chromosomes are XY" they would be woman, yes? Since your sex is determined by your chromosonal makeup. Question: "Is sex determined by chromosomes or external organs?" I can accept that there are not just two genders (for argument's sake) but how do we classify sex?
Ok, for the part about the survey and would a trans woman put different things... from a purely "what is the answer to these questions" standpoint, yes, that person would be 2 different things. Male by sex, female by gender. From a legal standpoint, a person has to have reassigment surgery or have some number of "experts" testify that the person is femal by gender to be considered legally of the other sex and have it on their driver's liscence and whatnot.
XY is chromosomally male, XX is chromosomally female. So a woman with XY chroms. is chromosomally a man, who's male sex organs did not form, and who was gendered female, most often.
ETA: if you're asking how do you classify someone who is chromosomally one thing but has different bits... its an ongoing debate, so I can't answer that. There is a spectrum of ambiguous genitalia conditions, and its a very complex issue.
I'm surprised I haven't seen a post like this before. I know there is a difference, but using the terms interchangeably doesn't bother me at all. I thought someone would have called it out sooner, though.
Well, I find this interesting, because in my experience most people find out the "sex" of their baby and immediately start making plans based on that...i.e, nursery colors, registry choices, etc. Then aren't you truly finding out the "gender?" I think it is impossible not to find out the "sex" of your baby and immediately begin thinking about it's "gender." SO I don't think this is such a big deal.
Not to knock some of you who find this to be a pet peeve, we all have our little things. This is just my opinion.
I don't think its a big deal either... title of this post says it's itty bitty! I just needed to say it. Just one of those things.
I get that. I absolutley hate when people say "prego" and "preggers". I vented about it, and it's true that it's not a big deal, but when you're thinking about it and posting, it's just a little something that irritates you.
I generally say sex and gender. I know that there's a difference, but will typically use either.
1. Context. No one is trying to use the scientific definitions of these words here.
2. The percentage of people who's sex differs from their gender is so small as to make the enforcing the distinction ridiculous.
You def. Have a point with #1, but #2 is really not true, and even if it were... I'm not trying to enforce the distinction, I was just pointing it out because it exists.
Gender and sex are the same thing. When you fill out certain forms, it generally asks for 'Sex' or 'Gender' and you check Male or Female.
Now, what's the difference?
meh, without reading this whole thread or links or whatever, I would just say that sex is biological, but gender is a social construct (e.g. "gender roles", etc.)
I get annoyed when people say "warsh" instead of wash. (lots of people do this in the midwest)
We all have our pet peeves!
But, really, you aren't going to know your child;s "preferred gender" for a decade or two...so it's not a sin to guess that if they are a boy that they'll probably see themselves as a boy or vice versa. Less than 1% of the population is transgendered...so it's a pretty fair assumption.
Re: Can I unload this itty bitty peeve?
Same.
Now, what's the difference?
https://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/general/bldef_gender.htm
I had to google it. You learn something new everyday
From what I gather, the term "gender" refers to the social aspect of being male or female, wheras the term "sex" refers to the physical aspect.
I agree. This bugs me as well.
And I'm shocked that some people have no clue there is a difference!
Really? I'm not.
Eleanor Noelle - 18/05/12 Claire Elisabeth - 16/-5/10
Well, I find this interesting, because in my experience most people find out the "sex" of their baby and immediately start making plans based on that...i.e, nursery colors, registry choices, etc. Then aren't you truly finding out the "gender?" I think it is impossible not to find out the "sex" of your baby and immediately begin thinking about it's "gender." SO I don't think this is such a big deal.
Not to knock some of you who find this to be a pet peeve, we all have our little things. This is just my opinion.
This. I consider myself fairly well educated and I'm nit-picky enough with words (difference between further and farther, anyone?), but I never knew there was a difference.
I get what you're saying - our culture definitely "connects" sex and gender. Blue for boys, pink for girls, etc. But when you go to your big u/s, you're not looking for baseballs vs. tiaras, you're looking for penis vs. vagina.
The difference becomes a bigger deal when people believe that sex and gender must always match. It's why transgendered people are subjected to a lot of prejudice/ridicule, why we have to single out a girl for being a "tomboy" just because she likes to climb trees and play ball, why boys are accused of being "homos" because they like musicals or play with dolls, etc.
I'm not shocked either, I'm not a moron, and I had no clue there was a difference., nor do I really care about the slight difference, especially when it's mainly a difference when used explicitly in context.
There definitely is a difference. It's a lot more complicated that sex=biology and gender=culture, but it's the easiest way to think of it. Those categories become under question especially when it comes to transsexual and transgender individuals, which are also two different things.
Look at history or different cultures, the two sex-two gender dichotomy is an invention. Many cultures have more than two genders and historical understandings of the body have only recently (i'm saying the last 500 years) have people thought of everyone having only one of two sexes.
One fun example is Thomas Laqeuer's Making Sex. He talks about how historically people thought there was only one sex, male, and women as we know them were just inverted males. During that time period, it was believed that both people having sex needed to orgasm to get pregnant! I wish it was still thought haha! By the way that idea was ruined when a monk had sex with what he believed to be a corpse, but was actually a woman in a coma. She woke up and was pregnant, which discovered that women did not need an orgasm to conceive. Bummer!
That's my history buff side coming out.....
I couldn't have said it better myself. I find the automatic connection that most people have between sex & gender (as PP said, boys do this/act this way but girls do this/act this way) a little...I don't know...presumptive.
What if your child chooses something outside what society says is "okay"? That's where this discussion gets interesting, IMO.
::jawdrop::
This. I vaguely remember reading something about this at some point in my education, but I definitely didn't remember the difference right off the bat.
this.
The biological aspect isn't the confusing part. If a pre-operation transsexual lives as what we consider a woman based on our culture (traditional American) but are biologically male, if they filled out two separate surveys where one says "Sex" and the other says "Gender" they would put two different things? Also based on, "and their chromosomes are XY" they would be woman, yes? Since your sex is determined by your chromosonal makeup. Question: "Is sex determined by chromosomes or external organs?" I can accept that there are not just two genders (for argument's sake) but how do we classify sex?
Agreed. JMO
1. Context. No one is trying to use the scientific definitions of these words here.
2. The percentage of people who's sex differs from their gender is so small as to make the enforcing the distinction ridiculous.
It's unfortunate that more people don't distinguish between the sex and the gender.
I get that. I absolutley hate when people say "prego" and "preggers". I vented about it, and it's true that it's not a big deal, but when you're thinking about it and posting, it's just a little something that irritates you.
I generally say sex and gender. I know that there's a difference, but will typically use either.
meh, without reading this whole thread or links or whatever, I would just say that sex is biological, but gender is a social construct (e.g. "gender roles", etc.)
I get annoyed when people say "warsh" instead of wash. (lots of people do this in the midwest)
We all have our pet peeves!
But, really, you aren't going to know your child;s "preferred gender" for a decade or two...so it's not a sin to guess that if they are a boy that they'll probably see themselves as a boy or vice versa. Less than 1% of the population is transgendered...so it's a pretty fair assumption.
It doesnt bother me but I am amazed that some people dont know that there IS a difference.
Gender=sociological and Sex=biological.