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Washington Babies
Can we talk CIO for a second??
Okay, so do you let them keep crying even if they are a heaving, snotty, messy mess? How many HOURS do you really let them go??
After talking with our pedi, and reading "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child", we are trying it all out. Last night, he feel asleep standing up in his crib. Literally put his head down on the top railing and fell asleep. Sometime around 1AM or so, he managed to either slump down or actually laid down and stayed that way til 530AM. Tonight he seems PISSED. He is in there screaming his head off and mad at the world. I really think this kid could do this for hours. The books I've read have pretty much said even the worst sleeper will crash after an hour. Not here! I feel horrible. This is not what I signed up for. Any ideas? Help? I know CIO isn't for everyone, but we have nothing left to try. He is getting NO quality sleep at all and it's not good for him. Or us.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Can we talk CIO for a second??
I totally agree but the pediatrician told us that if we go in after an hour, he'll learn he can scream for an hour and get us to come in. This is so frustrating. I just don't know what the "right" thing to do is. I mean, I don't even have a feeling anymore on what the "right" thing to do is. Ugh.
Hey Michelle -
No experience with CIO, but plenty of experience with feeling like I have no clue what to do. Just wanted you to know that you aren't alone on that one. Parenting is ridiculously tough and isolating, especially when you feel so lost.
Hang in there.
I want to start out by saying that I am not a fan of CIO so my advice might be a tad biased.
If your gut is telling you that this isn't right, then go with your gut. Your pedi doesn't live with your child, and S/he isn't sitting there going through it with you. Like pp said, every pedi can say something different when it comes to this subject, so it helps to remember that it is just their opinion, a professional, educated one, but an opinion non the less.
I would go in there with a cool washcloth, and wipe his face. I would talk very softly and tell him it is night night time. Lay him down, place your hand on his shoulder and continue to speak softly to him, even if he is screaming over you.
Walk out, but then when he stands up, go back and lay him down, and repeat. I would stay longer each time, rather then shorter. You have to take into account that the concept of object permanence is still developing and he might be having a bit a seperation anxiety to add to the mix.
It might take a few nights of this, even a week, but he will get there.
So, this is from the "Hot Topics" sidebar on the left side when I go onto the bump. 1 hour and 45 minutes!
The University of Washington's Parenting Clinic
Parents need sleep
For most parents, there comes a time when cuddling their baby to sleep isn't working, and they need to get some sleep. And a sleep-deprived parent really isn?t a good thing for kids. If you?re not getting enough, you?re probably not functioning so well as a parent during the day. Though cry it out is stressful for a few days, within a few weeks, you?ll be better able to parent, better during the day, and much less cranky and irritable.
Tears quickly decrease
Yes, it is pretty tough the first few nights -- there?s just no getting around it. I?ve done all this research, yet doing cry it out with my own son was still one of the hardest things I?ve ever done. The first night he cried for an hour and 45 minutes, and he was miserable and so was I. But the next night he cried for only an hour, and the night after that, half an hour. Within a week or so, your child will be sleeping a lot better. It?s hard, but it will work.
Ferber model works
I?ve read the Ferber book, and I think it?s great and very reassuring. My study was basically testing his model to see whether it really worked. His book does an excellent job of walking parents through the baby sleep process.
Happier families
There?s really no evidence showing that cry it out is harmful for kids -- there?s actually research showing it doesn?t form attachment problems later on. It doesn?t make kids more insecure; in fact, there?s data that supports the exact opposite. We?ve seen that parents and kids who use this technique are happier, maybe because they?re getting more sleep. If parents are feeling frustrated, they can be assured that letting babies cry it out won?t cause any harm.
Doesn't harm babies
If a baby is crying all the time, every day, all day long, that?s certainly stressful and not very good for the baby. But when you?re doing cry it out, it?s probably only for two or three nights that your baby is crying a lot, and it gets better every night. This is a very short-term intervention -- it?s not the same as exposing a baby to something that makes her cry for hours and hours every day on a continual basis. That?s not what we?re talking about here.
Effective option
If parents are ready for babies to sleep on their own, some form of letting the kids cry it out is really effective, and kids are happier and have fewer problems during the day after they?ve done it."
Dr. Jamila Reid, PhD, is a clinical child psychologist and co-director of The Parenting Clinic at the University of Washington
Thanks for this...it consoles me a bit.
Will didn't do well when we just let him cry either. He just wailed and wailed. We did the Sleep Easy Solution book, which sounds pretty similar to Ferber (from what I've read of Ferber) - you go in after 5, 10, 15 minutes, etc. We started when he was 10.5 months, and I think that going in to reassure him that we were still there when he needed us (even though we didn't pick him up) helped with separation anxiety.
Listening to him cry was hard, but having scheduled times to go in (and sticking to them) helped us as well. And it was far better than listening to him cry and feeling like there was nothing we could do.
Every kid is different, and if you're not comfortable with what you're doing now, I don't think you should do it. Sleep is rough.
Well, I am a fan of CIO, and it worked beautifully for us, and my DD is a perfectly happy, adjusted child who loves us and doesn't resent us at all.I agree that CIO isn't for everyone, but I really think that's b/c most parents can't do it - most babies can. *Note that I said MOST, not all. And they are too young to really remember - it's not going to traumatize them later in life. ?"Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" doesn't recommend you let them cry more than an hour when trying to regulate their nap schedule - BUT there is no limit for how long during nighttime sleep. This kind of thing doesn't usually happen in 2 days - for us it was more like 2 weeks. And it was really hard, I'm not gonna lie. I had to keep telling myself over and over that was what she needed and I was being a good parent by giving it to her. I cried sometimes. It really helped that DH was there to support me, so I didn't feel alone. But frankly, I think that 2 weeks was better than the months (or years) of sleep battles that I hear other mommies talking about.?And there are always going to be some regressions b/c of illness, etc., but after that very first "training" period, it's much easier and shorter. You should do what you feel comfortable w/for sure - if you absolutely can't stand it, then stop, or do Ferber. Ferber will work, too, it will just take longer. GL!
Matthew sounds just like Sydney when we did CIO. We tried Ferber at 6 months and it worked but at around 8 months we went right back into the old habit of rocking her to sleep and bringing her to bed with us.
We did CIO for good when she was the same age as your DS and it was brutal but we made it. It took almost three weeks, but we were expecting that because our ped told us that the older they are the harder it gets. There were nights when she would be at it for almost two hours and would fall asleep standing up. We tried Ferber but most of the time if we went in to comfort her she would only get more worked up. It was just better if we stayed out. Then there were nights where we could just tell that crying wasn't going to work and DH would go in and rock her until she calmed down and some nights until she fell asleep.
What helped the most for us was turning on the video monitor. We could keep an eye on her and see that she really was ok. Having a way to see her kept us out of her room.
She's a champion sleeper now.
It's easy to fall into the trap of "well the book says" but remember you know your child. If you think you need to go in, go it, if you think it's better to let him CIO, let him at it. You know the different crys (or at least you will after a week of this). It's hard but a well rested baby and a well rested mommy makes for a much happier healthier family. Good luck! Keep us updated.
{{HUGS}}
As a parent you have to do what is right for you and your family. If CIO is all that there is left for you, then you go ahead and do it.
I also read that if your child wakes up after 20 minutes of sleep, after a CIO, that means that the child didn't sleep but did a "mental coma" in order to cope with the stress. I think it was in my Baby Wise book. If he isn't waking up right away, then I would think he is getting some good sleep.
I know how you feel about sleep and behavior. DD is down right nasty when she doesn't get good sleep, and an angel when she does.
Ah sister, I feel ya. We had to CIO as well, Ferber never worked for Payton - each time we'd go in there, she'd get more and more worked up. I always let myself go in there once or twice once we decided to CIO, just to comfort ME. lol It took less than a week for CIO to work for us and for Payton to start sleeping better. What I noticed with her, she'd always wake 2-2.5hrs after we put her down and if she could put herself back to sleep, we were golden. If she couldn't, that's when things got really tough. But, after a week or so, she figured it out and things have been great ever since.
Hang in there, you WILL get through this!!! hugs
Baby website / My blog
Their rooms are right next to each other and unfortunatley both are very light sleepers so as soon as one makes a sound, the other is awake....ugh
omg Keren I didnt think about that!! That'll make me decide differently about where the future nursery goes
no i'm not pregnant. yet. ok not soon.
OK I haven't read the other responses... but I will tell you that on Ask Moxie (a blog I love) she has a theory that there are kids who release tension by crying and kids who INCREASE tension with crying. The releasers are the ones that can do CIO for 3 days and never more than an hour - often only 20 mintues - and that is that. For the tension increasers, CIO just makes them stressed out and nuts and doesn't actually help them to learn to fall asleep on their own. It just makes them scared of going to bed or at least super anxious about it.
So you just have to decide in your heart if you think CIO is really something that will help *teach* M to fall asleep on his own, or if you think it's just that he'll eventually keel over from exhaustion hours after you leave him. I know for us, Ben was a tension increaser. So CIO (which I only half heartedly tried once) would not have worked for him. For us, we had to make really small gradual changes. And somehow that's what worked for us.
IMO, it is never OK to leave a kid crying for hours. I wouldn't do it for more than a half hour. That's an eternity in their worlds. They need to know you're there and haven't abandoned them. And if until now you have shown up whenever they called, then that has to be scary to suddenly not get you. So maybe if you want to do the CIO thing do the gradual one where you go in every5 minutes, then every 15 minutse, etc... to help him not be as scared.
Is your problem getting him to fall asleep or getting him to stay asleep?
I've read more now with more info about your problems. We had such terrible sleep around 1 year old.... you know, ther'es a new book called "Bed Timing" that my friend just read and loves. Ther's a blog too so you could look there. But it's about how there are times develomentally when making sleep changes will be more successful or less successful, so you might look at that and see if you're doing it at a time where it's less likely to work easily too.
anyway, Ben STTN without any effort on my part from 3-6 months. Around 6.5 months it went to hell. ARound a year it was serious hell - up every 1 to 1 1/2 hours. Going to sleep was never a problem - but it was always on/with me or DH. By 17 months he was STTN and doing it on his own no problem.
I honestly can't temember the order of events for us now. At some point, he *did* start STTN again. And at some point, I *did* teach him to fall asleep on his own. Which came first? I cant' remember. Steve can't remember either.
In any event, I think they were both related somehow. But what I did for the sleep on your own part was long, but gradual. I started out letting him fall asleep next to me on the couch in his room, and then moving him. Then putting him in the bed drowsy, and I would kneel next to the crib and let him rub my arm (his "lovey"). Then I would lay on the floor instead and get him to fall asleep with no touching. Then I moved closer to the door. Then out of sight. Then if he said "mommy" I would say "night night" once so he kew I was there. Then I just started saying it and leaving.
If he woke up in the middle of the night, I'd do whatever we were doing at bed time. Go in, say Night night lay down. And then I'd lay on the floor, or sit by the door or whatever.
And now, I totally just put him in bed and leave. For night and naps. And it takes him an hour at night to fall asleep, but he just hangs out and does it. Not a peep. Well, nothing like crying. He talks to his guys and sometimes sings songs. But he does it all on his own. Even for naps sometimes he doesn't fall asleep, but he'll stay up there for 1 1/2 to 2 hours before I go get him. He loves his bed now. ANd he's a fantastic sleeper.
So.... that's another set of options for you. And to let you know that it can and will get better somehow. You just have to do whtat feels right and comfortable to you.
And like Aly said - know you're not alone. Sleep was the one issue I felt just completely 100% out of control with there for a while. I felt like I could handle the rest. But sleep was ridiculous. The hard thing fo rme was that even with the shitty sleep, Ben seemed fine. he wasn't cranky or crabby. It was just me. So somehow I feel like he was getting good sleep. So it was just me that was suffering.
I'm really sorry, I can totally relate, this was us about a month ago. We got Mikayla in the habit of needing to be passed out drinking her bottle or rocked/patted to sleep. She could NOT fall asleep on her own, and bedtime was a process that could take hours. With me working nights half the week, and my husband being out of town for work a lot on my nights off, a lot of times it was just one of us putting M to bed and it was so frustrating and exhausting. We were all tired, and my husband and I barely got to spend much time alone on the nights we were home together because it'd take 4 hours to get M to fall asleep.
We did Ferber. Let me tell you though when I first read the book when M was about 7 months old or so, I thought no way, this method sounds horrible, just let her cry? Absolutely not! Then we tried it out of desperation. I liked that it wasn't just a plain CIO method, that I got to go in and check on her, for her comfort and mine. The first night sucked. Ferber suggested to let them cry 5 minutes before going in the first time to check on them - we waited ONE minute. That's all I could handle at first. We gradually let that time stretch out, I think the longest stretch the first night was 10 minutes. It took Mikayla until 1am to fall asleep. I felt horrible, my husband felt horrible, we wondered if we'd traumatized her, etc. etc. The next night went better, it took maybe 3 hours? The better the next night, then better and better. Now she usually doesn't cry at all when we put her down. Her naps during the day are great too, usually she'll play in her crib with her toys for a few minutes and go to sleep. My husband and I actually get to spend evenings together! And the nights I work, I come home and he's been able to relax after putting her to bed, no more coming home to an exhausted, cranky husband who barely has any energy.
Anyways, I do agree you have to do what feels right for you. But know if you do Ferber or anything similar, it's going to suck the first few nights. Really really suck. But give it a few days, see if there's any improvement. We almost quit the first night and I'm so glad we didn't. I hope you find a method that works for you!
This exactly. Hang in there.