UO Thursday | 4.27

eggplantface

Any good ones today?

pebbledam

Hmm...

My UO is that I don't care for Apple products.

smorzandoj

Traveling sucks. 

jenotontx

Ok so I know this one is pretty controversial but I got into a conversation with some friends about it this week so it's motivated me to mention it here... My UO is that I don't agree with circumscision. I'll even go as far to say I think it's kind of barbaric. I don't judge people who have it done for their boys because I know in the US it's still the norm and most people just don't think anything of it. I just hope over time it becomes less common here and people become more educated on the subject. 

vflux33

@JJMNO1616 I've been curious about this debate over the last few years. I have a friend who is very anti-circumcision and he mentioned that it doesn't actually make things "cleaner" and less prone to disease, and that the cut removes the area with the most sensitive nerve cells, thus diminishing sexual pleasure later in life. I haven't done any research on this, but *if* those two points are true, that's a pretty compelling set of reasons to avoid it. MH and I agreed that if we get KU and find out it's a boy we will look into this more and not automatically go with circumcision out of custom alone. But we are still on the fence until we get more info.  

LoveInDC

@JJMNO1616 @vflux33 I really hope people become more educated and this becomes less of an UO. The cleanliness argument is ridiculous. If that were true, vaginas would either be riddled with disease, or we would chop off all external folds of female genitalia. It does inhibit pleasure too (think the clitoral hood). Anyone who hasn't checked out the video from Adam Ruins Everything should. DH was actually adamant about circumcision until we talked and now he's natural all the way.

vflux33

@LoveInDC OK that video was pretty great. Will show to MH later!

eggplantface

I don't know enough about circumcision to have a strong opinion either way (yet; cross that bridge when we come to it!), but I do know that whatever someone chooses is not my business.

LoveInDC

@eggplantface I too am team "raise your kids however you want." There are so many arguments about what is socially acceptable v. what is the healthiest option for your child. At the same time, I recognize that if it weren't for blind tradition, circumcision would be akin to genital mutilation. I hope that more people are willing to learn and change, and I'm going to try and educate people as kindly as I can, but the choice is ultimately theirs and I'll respect that.

doula-mama

I had always thought I would lean towards natural, if I ever had a boy. But, my H is Jewish, and even though he isn't really practicing, he's made it clear that it is important to him, so if we have to cross that bridge, I'll defer to his beliefs.

vflux33

Yeah, I'm a non practicing Jew too, with no problem going against tradition/family myself (and have done so in a lot of other contexts). But I totally get how some people, especially Jews, may be 100% for it and will definitely not judge them for that. It is a big deal for Jews.  

eta words

petethecat

For me, circumcision comes down to a person's bodily autonomy and ability to consent. Due to that, I would personally feel uncomfortable making that choice for my own son, if I had one. That personal belief does not extend beyond my own family though, because I don't believe in having opinions about what other parents should choose for their own children. Additionally, I'm not going to attempt to educate anyone on what they should or shouldn't do with their hypothetical children, because I'm certain that it's none of my damn business.

jsnakehole

I guess my UO is that my husband and I plan on circumcising our sons. Even though we're not ultra religious Jews (obviously, since I'm on TB all weekend), we are practicing. If we have sons, they'll have a bris eight days after birth, as is tradition. Our daughters will have a naming ceremony. 

izza2

H has a penis and I don't, so if he feels any future sons should be circumsized, he can decide that.
He knows the foreskin would make sex more enjoyable, and that cleanliness isn't an issue like it used to be, but I figure he's the one living with that appendage 24/7, so he knows better than I whether he would think foreskin is better or not.
Which I realize may be barbaric of me to defer that choice to my husband, but, that's just how I roll on the topic.

So I guess that's my UO.

LoveInDC

@kbamomma33 I don't view it as telling them what they should or shouldn't do with their hypothetical children. Like I said, I respect what each parent decides for their child. Lord knows I don't have a right to make that decision on their behalf. I'm not going to hunt down parents, ask every pregnant woman I see, or even raise the question to friends. But if it comes up (as it did here, and as it did for @JJMNO1616 and her friends) I don't see the harm in asking "Why?" Asking motivation behind a choice is not attacking the choice itself or the person behind the choice.

I suppose my official UO is that I think that a parent's rights over their children are vast, but not absolute. That's why child abusers lose their children. There are limits to what a parent can legally and ethically do to their children. Over the course of history, what is considered safe and ethical childcare has constantly changed. I don't see why people can't have an educated, respectful conversation about where that definition is headed and how we can be the most kind to our kids.

Flame away?

doxiemoxie212

ETA: I got to curious and googled: https://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/ 

I haven't actually done any research on it because DH is Jewish and I'm half Jewish, so it's sort of a given that we'll circ any boys, but I had a professor in college who specialized in sexual health (but was a psychologist), and he said that there was a study done in Africa related to HIV/AIDS and circumcision. Basically, the foreskin can trap fluids underneath it, similar to how a vagina or anus can trap fluids inside it, and this increases the likelihood for STI transfer. Apparently in the study he referenced, the data was so pronounced that they felt ethically bound to offer the control group circumcision. Again, I don't remember the study name, and so if you're curious, google away see link above. 

If the foreskin does hold fluids in contact longer, like if that part is true, I guess it would make sense since - IDK if you knew this? I didn't before - gay men who identify as bottoms and straight women are more likely to get STIs from sex than the penetrative partner. I had a different psych teacher who worked really actively in the gay community in NY explain it to us because it relates to what at the time (maybe still is?) a crystal meth epidemic in the gay community. Crystal meth makes you horny but harder for men to get erections and thus they're more like to become a receptive partner instead of penetrative, and it was spreading STIs like crazy (more receptive partners = easier to spread STIs).

That said, wouldn't be the first time an NYU professor told me something incorrect, and this was 10 years ago, so.... 

ALL THAT SAID, I have a funny story related to it. Me, my husband, my mom, my aunt, and two of their friends (a couple) were at dinner together one night. My husband and the dude from the couple were talking about circumcision because they're both Jewish, but the guy (70 at the time) said 30 years ago when he had his son he debated circumcision because he didn't "feel Jewish" anymore but ultimately decided to do it because he wanted his son to look like him (whatever). My husband was like yada yada, bla bla. Anyway, my aunt is really spacey sometimes, so out of no where she just blurts, "Well, I didn't circumcise [your cousin]. But I was always so worried about how to clean it. It was like a little orchid, but the petals were so tight. I couldn't get anything in there to clean it..." she just kept going talking about my now 40-year-old cousin's penis. She honestly didn't understand why we were laughing. 

jsnakehole

@doxiemoxie212 ayyyy fellow NYU alum!

Speaking as someone who regularly does the do with a circumcised guy (at least, pre-deployment), I don't really believe there's a reduction in pleasure. 

doxiemoxie212

@jsnakehole AYO! Go fighting violets? Actually we're the same age so.... lol 

doxiemoxie212

Also, yes @jsnakehole, I'd just like to add that by and large the male community is not struggling in the sexual pleasure department. Like, they're fine. 

jenotontx

I totally agree with you @LoveInDC

It is a very personal decision and I don't think it's my business to tell anyone what they should or should not do. My only hope is that people would at least take some time to make an educated decision one way or another. I typically follow the guide of science and research and from what I know, the American Pediatric Association is neutral on the subject. So I'm certainly not going to tell someone that they shouldn't have their son circumsized but if the topic comes up (as it did in the convo with my girlfriends) I'm also not going to hold back from sharing the information I have about it. I think there is a difference between having an educational discussion on a topic and trying to tell someone what's best for their children. 

LoveInDC

@jsnakehole I'm curious why you don't think there's a reduction in his pleasure when he's (presumably) never had sex uncircumcised?

jsnakehole

@doxiemoxie212 I'm Steindhardt '11. I remember them trying to push the Bobcat as the mascot, but everyone knew that was a lie. 

doxiemoxie212

@jsnakehole Gallatin, '10 - I'm on the younger side for my year. I'm taking classes for graphic design at New School now, and I get soooooooo nostalgic being back in the NYU area. 

jsnakehole

LoveInDC said:

@jsnakehole I'm curious why you don't think there's a reduction in his pleasure when he's (presumably) never had sex uncircumcised?

*TMI maybe? Is anything really TMI here?*
The complaint I've heard is that there's little to no sensation in the head of the penis and that is the opposite of my experience with my husband. 

Edit to add: of course, this is all anecdotal. 

doxiemoxie212

@jsnakehole @LoveInDC

What the what? I've encountered a fair number of dicks in my time, and all of them have been circumcised, and none of them were in any way insensitive. 

ETA: a little TOO sensitive, one might say. 

LoveInDC

@jsnakehole @doxiemoxie I don't think the argument is that the head is insensitive (Lord knows that's not true with my DH either). It's that the foreskin has a lot of nerve endings that can make sex more pleasurable and you lose that when you cut it off. The numbers are still highly debated, but it's something to consider.

For anyone curious enough, there's this website with tons of studies: https://thecircumcisiondecision.com

jenotontx

@doxiemoxie212 I have read that it is easier to contract an STD if a male is uncircumcised but I believe the sex has to be unprotected? I don't think there is any greater risk if protection is being used regularly. So someone would already be putting themself at risk of contracting an STD circumsized or not. 

ETA- The story about your aunt is hilarious... although not so much for your cousin. lol!

doxiemoxie212

@LoveInDC yeah, I get that. I'm just not going to shed any tears for any dudes who might be missing out on a (small?) increase in pleasure given how difficult it is for most women to get off during sex. lol. 

@JJMNO1616 True dat, true dat. But sometimes people are dumb. Hopefully our kids won't be since most folks in our families are pretty smart, but DH does have this one brother who has done some duuummbbb isht. 

Dilynne

Funny TMI story about circumcision. Before I had seen Hs fun bits I asked him if he was circumcised. His exact words were "Not Jewish, no snippy". Well he is 100% circumcised and when I told him that he went home and asked his mom! He didn't believe me and actually asked her. She asked him why and he told her "a friend told me other wise" I could have died of embarrassment. 

As a side note, a lot of people I knew in high school didn't know if they were circumcised or not. We did a poll on the bus one day (don't ask me why) and one of the boys said he wasn't and his brother was like... dude you are. And a friend of mines first boyfriend was adamant he was and he definitely was not. 

doxiemoxie212

@Dilynne bruh... 

ETA: and we wonder why they have such a rough time figuring our anatomy out... 

petethecat

LoveInDC said:

@kbamomma33 I don't view it as telling them what they should or shouldn't do with their hypothetical children. Like I said, I respect what each parent decides for their child. Lord knows I don't have a right to make that decision on their behalf. I'm not going to hunt down parents, ask every pregnant woman I see, or even raise the question to friends. But if it comes up (as it did here, and as it did for @JJMNO1616 and her friends) I don't see the harm in asking "Why?" Asking motivation behind a choice is not attacking the choice itself or the person behind the choice.

I suppose my official UO is that I think that a parent's rights over their children are vast, but not absolute. That's why child abusers lose their children. There are limits to what a parent can legally and ethically do to their children. Over the course of history, what is considered safe and ethical childcare has constantly changed. I don't see why people can't have an educated, respectful conversation about where that definition is headed and how we can be the most kind to our kids.

Flame away?

I really don't think that you said anything flame worthy here. I think that you can ask or have respectful conversations about whatever you want, as can anyone. I also never said that asking a person's motivation behind a choice is an attack on that choice and I don't think that was insinuated here by anyone.

I think that you do have to be careful though about asking too many questions to parents about choices that they make for their own children or giving an opinion when one isn't asked. That's a hard line for many people. Also, to me, using the term, "educate," is a little dicey because it loosely implies an assumption that another party doesn't believe what you do because you know something that they don't. Maybe they are educated but deduce that another choice is right for them for whatever reason. That's cool too, and if your goal for having a conversation is to learn about that, then that's awesome. I also don't think that there is anything wrong with having a hypothetical or thought provoking conversation between friends about whatever issue strikes your fancy, as long as it remains open and your goal is to share as well as learn, and not to convince. 

Obviously I'm not talking about the case of child abuse or anything like that. I'm talking about reasonable, normal things, and a parent's right to choose what those things are for their own children without unwelcome question or interjection from others. Currently, curcumcision is a topic that most people have hard opinions on. There are about a thousand threads on TB that illustrate this. That's why I said that I personally make the choice not to touch that specific issue as it relates to someone else's family.

LoveInDC

kbamomma33 said:

LoveInDC said:

@kbamomma33 I don't view it as telling them what they should or shouldn't do with their hypothetical children. Like I said, I respect what each parent decides for their child. Lord knows I don't have a right to make that decision on their behalf. I'm not going to hunt down parents, ask every pregnant woman I see, or even raise the question to friends. But if it comes up (as it did here, and as it did for @JJMNO1616 and her friends) I don't see the harm in asking "Why?" Asking motivation behind a choice is not attacking the choice itself or the person behind the choice.

I suppose my official UO is that I think that a parent's rights over their children are vast, but not absolute. That's why child abusers lose their children. There are limits to what a parent can legally and ethically do to their children. Over the course of history, what is considered safe and ethical childcare has constantly changed. I don't see why people can't have an educated, respectful conversation about where that definition is headed and how we can be the most kind to our kids.

Flame away?

I really don't think that you said anything flame worthy here. I think that you can ask or have respectful conversations about whatever you want, as can anyone. I also never said that asking a person's motivation behind a choice is an attack on that choice and I don't think that was insinuated here by anyone.

I think that you do have to be careful though about asking too many questions to parents about choices that they make for their own children or giving an opinion when one isn't asked. That's a hard line for many people. Also, to me, using the term, "educate," is a little dicey because it loosely implies an assumption that another party doesn't believe what you do because you know something that they don't. Maybe they are educated but deduce that another choice is right for them for whatever reason. That's cool too, and if your goal for having a conversation is to learn about that, then that's awesome. I also don't think that there is anything wrong with having a hypothetical or thought provoking conversation between friends about whatever issue strikes your fancy, as long as it remains open and your goal is to share as well as learn, and not to convince. 

Obviously I'm not talking about the case of child abuse or anything like that. I'm talking about reasonable, normal things, and a parent's right to choose what those things are for their own children without unwelcome question or interjection from others. Currently, curcumcision is a topic that most people have hard opinions on. There are about a thousand threads on TB that illustrate this. That's why I said that I personally make the choice not to touch that specific issue as it relates to someone else's family.

I didn't mean to imply that anyone said that. That's just my experience with people and why they leave topics off the table.

Asking people's motivations behind anything can get heated (usually because it's seen as an attack). I think that any respectful person can read their audience and understand when the other side isn't open for discussion.

Perhaps I chose the wrong word, but for some people, it honestly doesn't occur to them that it's a choice. Not that reminding them of that or telling them the same facts I know will change their mind. Just that it might inspire them to do their own research and come to an educated conclusion on their own, whichever way that goes.

Exactly. I have said time and time again in my posts that I respect any decision a parents makes in this case. Whether they do it based on facts, religion, or just because. Whatever floats their boat.

My second paragraph wasn't directed at you in particular. Obviously child abuse is the extreme, but I used it to illustrate my point that there is at least one line we all agree on. As far as "reasonable and normal," my point was that is always changing. A crib painted with lead paint was once considered reasonable and normal. Whether a baby is supposed to sleep on their back or stomach changes every few years.

I don't see why we can't have a theoretical conversation without it becoming personal. I can ask what you're doing and why without attacking you as a parent. We can't just put all topics of parenthood off limits. How will any of us learn from each other and progress? But as I said, I'm not going to push the conversation with anyone who decides they don't want to talk about it.

I think this thread is an excellent example of many people on different pages all having a tactful and respectful conversation. Some don't think they'll circumcise, others are undecided, some will do it for religious reasons, and others are leaving the decision up to their husbands. I don't think anyone has felt attacked or talked down on. I've actually kind of enjoyed it.

PS - I hope you don't see any of this as argumentative. I really enjoy you as a bumpie and I hope you don't think less of me after this conversation. I personally find it nice and helpful. If you don't, or you feel as if I've been unfair or rude to you, I apologize.

Cricket648

Jumping in to the circumcision thing...
I don't have strong feelings either way. DH is Jewish and it's important to him that a future son be circumcised, so that's what we'll do. 

But, I will add this to the discussion. My cousin wasn't circumcised, and as a teenager started getting infections so regularly that they ended up circumcising him at age 17 or 18. He was totally miserable, and is now very vocal about the fact that he would definitely circumcise any future sons of his. Overall, I think that the decision to circumcise is a personal one, and I would never judge a parent either way.  

petethecat

LoveInDC said:

1) Asking people's motivations behind anything can get heated (usually because it's seen as an attack). I think that any respectful person can read their audience and understand when the other side isn't open for discussion.

2) Perhaps I chose the wrong word, but for some people, it honestly doesn't occur to them that it's a choice. Not that reminding them of that or telling them the same facts I know will change their mind. Just that it might inspire them to do their own research and come to an educated conclusion on their own, whichever way that goes.

3) My second paragraph wasn't directed at you in particular. Obviously child abuse is the extreme, but I used it to illustrate my point that there is at least one line we all agree on. As far as "reasonable and normal," my point was that is always changing. A crib painted with lead paint was once considered reasonable and normal. Whether a baby is supposed to sleep on their back or stomach changes every few years.

4) I don't see why we can't have a theoretical conversation without it becoming personal. I can ask what you're doing and why without attacking you as a parent. We can't just put all topics of parenthood off limits. How will any of us learn from each other and progress? But as I said, I'm not going to push the conversation with anyone who decides they don't want to talk about it.

5) I think this thread is an excellent example of many people on different pages all having a tactful and respectful conversation. Some don't think they'll circumcise, others are undecided, some will do it for religious reasons, and others are leaving the decision up to their husbands. I don't think anyone has felt attacked or talked down on. I've actually kind of enjoyed it.

PS - I hope you don't see any of this as argumentative. I really enjoy you as a bumpie and I hope you don't think less of me after this conversation. I personally find it nice and helpful. If you don't, or you feel as if I've been unfair or rude to you, I apologize.

1) I agree with all of this. 

2) Of course. I certainly don't see the harm in letting people know that there is a choice if they don't already know that. 

3) This is so so true. To your point, and unrelated to this specific topic, **TW** there were so many things that they drilled into us at the hospital about safe sleep when we had DD. No loose blankets in the crib, sleep on the back, etc. I was terrified of doing it wrong once we got home. When my mom came to visit, she wanted to rock DD to sleep so I let her. Well, she put her to bed with a loose blanket over her. At 6 weeks old. I flipped out and promptly removed it from her crib. But that's what she did with my brother and I and we were fine. Still, I'm not about doing that. I talked to her and let her know why and she was cool and promised to never do it again. **end TW** Talking is good. Education, change, and learning is always good. 

4) I actually agree with all of this. The reason that I typically don't push talking about certain issues is that a lot of people can't have a theoretical conversation without it becoming personal. This is especially true in my family and social circle. 

5) Yes and yes. I agree with you here. I am really impressed by the way the ladies here are able to have conversations about serious stuff and without anyone really getting butthurt. It's very adult and you don't always find that everywhere on TB. 

As for your PS- girl, of course not! I absolutely don't think that you've been unfair or rude to me. I would never think less of anyone for thinking differently than me. That's what the world is. It's cool! You are just talking about what you think. No need to apologize at all! 

LoveInDC

@kbamomma33

KariAnn323

Oh my gosh you guys! So this thread caused me to ask DH how he felt on circumcision.
Me: How do you feel about circumcision?
DH: Woah! You can't just ask me that out of the blue!
Me: Okay... so how do you feel about it?
DH: Well I guess if it's just extra skin I'm ok with it.
Me: Wait, what? What wouldn't you be okay with?
DH: Well I'd be okay with cutting the extra foreskin off, but not the head
Me: 

I'm a little terrified you guys. DH thought circumcision was a two step process where they cut off the extra foreskin and then if necessary CUT OFF THE HEAD OF THE PENIS!

I feel kind of bad because I definitely spent the next 10 minutes uncontrollably laughing at him.

SoldiersMom

Idk if this is an unpopular opinion but I think all this attention being paid to the NFL draft is ridiculous. To me, it's just as silly, if not sillier, than the Victoria's Secret "Fashion" show and yet people seem to be enthralled with both. I don't get it. 

jenotontx

KariAnn323 said:

I'm a little terrified you guys. DH thought circumcision was a two step process where they cut off the extra foreskin and then if necessary CUT OFF THE HEAD OF THE PENIS!

And THIS is why conversation and education on the topic is so important  lmao 

I'm really curious to know if he has ever seen a "headless penis". Considering @Dilynne story he probably thinks an uncircumcised penis is actually a circumsized penis with the head cut off. LOL 

pebbledam

First, I just want to say that the TTGP community is great! I love being able to read different points of view without getting turned off by rude, personal attacks. 

Second, I am anti-circumcision. It's a completely unnecessary procedure that DOES remove nerve endings. However, I get the whole religious and traditional aspects, so I would never tell someone that they shouldn't circumcise, but I would totally engage people in conversation about it!

@doxiemoxie212 - It's probably true about the folds retaining fluid, but the HIV epidemic really hinges on unprotected sex.

@Cricket648 - I wonder if your cousin was taught how to clean an uncircumcised penis. I feel like it's not something that is talked about openly, even in a medical setting!

Lastly, DH is uncircumcised and his ex really wanted to circumcise their son. My thought was the same as some of the PP, the man gets a bigger say because, well, they have a penis. DH did win that argument and DSS is uncircumcised. 

Cricket648

@pebbledam You know what? I wondered the same thing (but I wasn't about to ask)! Especially becasue his dad wasn't really around. I'm not sure if his mom would have thought to have that conversation with him- or even really knew herself.