NBR: Dog Dilemma

birdiejo

I wasn't sure if this was too heavy for randoms. I also think I know the answer but need to hear from random strangers. 

I have two dogs and one toddler. One of my dogs is a hound mix and has a territorial problem. He's 6 years old and while he is an extremely sweet and gentle dog 99% of the time, about 1% of the time it can get really scary. He's the reason my other dog is blind, he's bitten my husband three times over the years, he got both of my in laws. Luckily all pretty minor injuries but he's 60 lbs and obviously can do some damage. We know when he gets territorial and his trigger situations. We have to feed him alone, if he's in a corner of our room, no one can go near him. Every time an incident happens we discuss what to do and can never come to a conclusion. We've tried behavior training but it hasnt worked. I feel like I'm constantly hyper aware of where he is at any moment because I have my toddler running around and I'm constantly running after her, making sure she's not going towards him if he's in a trigger spot. Well, today it happened and luckily he did not get her but he did scare the shit out of her which in turn scared the shit out of me. 

Now I'm thinking, no way I can have my toddler running around plus my infant and my old blind dog around my other dog. But at the same time he's one of our babies too ... I don't know. What do you guys think? 

Gingersnap

He tried to bite your kid? 

fourPsinapod

Oh man, I can't imagine how tough that would be. On my last bmb, people were ripped apart for their differing opinions on this. 

I have never been a dog person so I'm probably not the best source of advice but my kid(s) comes first. If it's bad enough that you are scared for their safety, that's not healthy for anyone. Plus maybe the presence of children is agitating to the dog too? Obviously I wouldn't toss my dog out the door and say good luck, but I would exhaust all resources to make sure that the dog and children are safe. It sounds like you've done a lot.. Is there any close relatives without children that would be willing to temporarily home them? Idk.. Anything I would suggest probably sucks bc you shouldn't have to choose one or another. 

birdiejo

Gingersnap said:

He tried to bite your kid? 

I don't know if it was an attempt to bite or just a scary bark/snarl but it's the same sound he makes when in the past someone ends up bleeding. I can't say for certain because I was running in there two beats behind and only saw the aftermath. 

fourPsinapod

homemake said:

Gingersnap said:

He tried to bite your kid? 

I don't know if it was an attempt to bite or just a scary bark/snarl but it's the same sound he makes when in the past someone ends up bleeding. I can't say for certain because I was running in there two beats behind and only saw the aftermath. 

This legit terrifies me. I would be so freaked out. 

Gingersnap

I'll take any and all heat for this, but if my dog had a history of aggression and biting, if he tried to bite my kid he would he out of the house. 
Maybe the backyard, maybe rehomed, but my child's safety will ALWAYS be the priority. 
Its hard enough to keep your eye on a toddler as it is, but once you have another kid around it's going to be near impossible. 
Sorry you have to deal with this, but your children have to come first. 

birdiejo

fourPsinapod said:

homemake said:

Gingersnap said:

He tried to bite your kid? 

I don't know if it was an attempt to bite or just a scary bark/snarl but it's the same sound he makes when in the past someone ends up bleeding. I can't say for certain because I was running in there two beats behind and only saw the aftermath. 

This legit terrifies me. I would be so freaked out. 

I agree. I was shaking for awhile after and with your above post that's pretty much exactly how I feel. I don't think there's a right decision but I don't want to endanger my kid. 

Partyof6?

I am a dog person, and I have to agree that the dog needs out.  If you have already tried a behaviorist, was it before or after kid?  If you try that path again, and it is still an issue, that would be it for me. 

Biting your husband, inlaws and blinding your other dog would not make me hopeful that things would get better.   I am sorry, it can't be an easy decision at all.  

joyful08

Gingersnap said:

I'll take any and all heat for this, but if my dog had a history of aggression and biting, if he tried to bite my kid he would he out of the house. 
Maybe the backyard, maybe rehomed, but my child's safety will ALWAYS be the priority. 
Its hard enough to keep your eye on a toddler as it is, but once you have another kid around it's going to be near impossible. 
Sorry you have to deal with this, but your children have to come first. 

This is exactly my opinion. I'm so sorry you're have to deal with this. 

RunBooRun

Lurking from M17

It sounds like he needs a home without children or other pets. Would be best for your family, but also best for him.

MrsP052909

We had an issue with our dog when I was pregnant with dd. He became territorial and ended up biting me when I tried to put him in his kennel. I could never leave my son in the room with him because his behavior was erratic. 

We ended up sending him to live with my in laws and his behavior turned around. Our other pets are less stressed and I am no longer worried about leaving my kids alone. Some dogs are just better without other dogs and children in the home. It's a tough decision but you have to do what's best for your family.

scifichick09

I am  huge dog lover. And I may take heat for this, but I think the dog needs to go. It sounds like you've already tried everything. I wouldn't straight up take him to the shelter, but I would start looking for a new home. It'd be what's best for the kids and the dog. The dog clearly gets stressed out or it wouldn't snap like that. Maybe it just needs to be in a calm home with no children. Don't think of it was abandoning your dog, think of it as giving him a less stressful life.

We had to do this with my rat terrier mix. He was very territorial as well and it got worse when we moved into our old apartment. He would freak out anytime our other dog would get near him. He never got aggressive with people, but I wasn't willing to take that chance, and I also felt bad that he was so on edge all of the time. I found a sweet old man who fell in love with him instantly, and the dog took to him as well. It worked out really great and the guy sent me a photo every Christmas for 2 years. These stories CAN have a good ending.

foxrosy

I agree with what @Gingersnap said. The safety of your children has to come first. Thank goodness nothing worse happened to your toddler. I would try to figure out another option for my dog to have a home where he too doesn't feel threatened to the point of acting aggressively. I know this is a hard decision to make. 

birdiejo

Thank you guys for your responses and I agree. I guess my concern is that we don't really have anyone we know who would want him and I'd also worry that he'd hurt someone else . I also don't want to just bring him to a shelter. I guess I just need to look into this and try to figure it out. 

PerraSucia

When you did training did you have someone who specifically specializes in aggressive dog training? I feel like if someone who is a specialist hasn't made a difference the safety of your family is the most important. 

BlondePeanut

Wow, I am very sorry you are dealing with this tough situation. I have a question to better understand the situation, when the situation happened with your toddler, did the dog try to bite her/how exactly did he act and was it any different than the way he acted when he bit adults or the other dog? Just trying to see if the aggression is the same for anyone/anything or if the dog has any recognition of a harmless child.  
I have dealt with having 2 dogs under one roof that don't get along ever. I could not figure out what the trigger was, anytime they saw eachother they fought. There was no aggression towards humans or other animals. It was strictly an issue between those 2 dogs. 
Your situation is tricky. You certainly don't want to just shove your dog out the door, I understand loving your pet as a family member, my husband and I are the same way with ours. The problem arises with trying to keep your kids and blind dog safe, and your stress levels down which will be very hard.
Do you have anywhere in your house that you could rig into a place just for that one dog that isn't accessible by your blind dog or toddler? I'm not talking about a cage, but somewhere that this dog being territorial could claim as his own and have it truly be his own? Like a basement area or room? Also, another semi-dumb question, is that particular dog fixed? Sometimes that can help if they are not fixed, but some dogs are built differently and have behaviors that aren't what we would deem the greatest. I am coming from a place of being an animal lover myself and also a very protective woman. No judgement, and I am trying to be helpful given the stress I am sure you are under. I know some people will say, duh get rid of the dog, but I know it is easier said than done for someone who is an animal lover and feels for the dog's situation as well as her own. That being said, if the dog did bite your toddler, there is no regard for a harmless child in the dog's eyes and I would say def def find a new home without kids or other pets with someone who is understanding of the situation. A warning is usually different than a bite or attack, and many times dogs don't give much warning if they are truly going to bite or attack. A warning from my older dog to the younger dog if she is being a pest is a very loud upset bark, but there is no biting or contact.   

babyfever0215

I am in a very simular situation. We own a 7 year old pit, who is very protective over my husband. It's to the point were we can't have people over b/c of the dog. He has bit three people in the past year including me, luckily none were as bad as they could of been. Currently I am pregnant with our first child & although it's not going to be easy. My husband and I decided it's best to get rid of the dog. I refuse to put my child in an danger and I know if something where to happen I could never forgive myself. I know the situation you are in is very hard and not fun, but our kids come first!!

skiingstark

Also there are trainers, who specifically work with who bite, think the dog whisper, but there are other local ones who can help train you and the dog. When a dog is biting that is when you go to professional help. 

Xstatic3333

I'm against rehoming in most situations. It often seems to me that a dog has just been put in a tough spot or set up to fail when he snaps at a child, but that's not what I'm seeing here. It sounds like you have done everything "right" in terms of supervising your child with the dog, trying training, feeding separately, etc. It seems like this dog is communicating to you that he wants to live in a home without kids, where he will be the only pet. 

With time to go before the baby, maybe you can start reaching out to no-kill rescues, area trainers, your social circle, and your vet to find a home better suited to his needs, where he can be happy in a quieter environment. I wouldn't bring him to a shelter or do Craigslist. Those can have pretty tough outcomes. Sorry you are going through this. 

The only other option I can think of would be keeping him in a separate part of the house while trying a new behaviorist, and either you or H giving him individual attention and exercise a few times a day. I'm a big believer in positive reinforcement training. Have you tried that philosophy yet? It worked miracles on my dog. Some way to give the dog a "safe space" like a crate to go to when he feels overwhelmed could also be useful. 

birdiejo

@BlondePeanut I don't know for certain if he attempted to bite or just barked/snarled because I ran in there after her and it happened before I got in there. Generally his warning is a growl and then the bark/snarl sound is the attack. He's bitten three humans other than my dog so I really can't say if he recognizes not to hurt her. He is fixed and we don't have anywhere to put him on his own. 

@PerraSucia Yes it was for his aggression specifically because his behavior otherwise is pretty good.

BlondePeanut

Is it possible he has an extreme anxiety issue that could be treated with medication? Some dogs have such bad anxiety that they actually need daily medication. It may be worth asking the vet about. I had a very aggressive jack russell that passed away years ago and we found out from the vet she had some neurological issues and once she had a good medicine regimen, she was so much happier and less aggressive. It stemmed from seizures and anxiety. Before the medicine she bit 5 or so people pretty badly.  

Xstatic3333

@BlondePeanut the medication idea is a great one. In general, @homemake's vet could be a great resource to go to for the next steps to take in this situation. 

imalwaysme79

Also, and only because I recently saw this on Cesar 911 (don't judge), has the dog been recently checked out by a vet and had a full health evaluation? Sometimes there are issues that we can't see which may be affecting them causing the aggression/anxiety. 

Gretchypoo

@homemake I agree with other posters that rehoming is the best option. you sound like a great mom and fur mom. You've exhausted all your options. I'm sorry you're going through this and glad your toddler is okay.

Xstatic3333

Something I want to add-the fact that the dog snarled at your toddler once isn't the most concerning thing about this situation to me. It is super common for a dog to feel threatened by a very small child, even an extremely calm one. They are loud, quick, and unpredictable, and a growl is the dog's only way to communicate that it is uncomfortable before resorting to a nip. The bigger concern here to me is that he his bitten multiple adults and your other dog. 

I'm curious, were all of the biting incidents connected to resource guarding behavior, or were some random? Resource guarding should be able to be addressed by training, but random biting would be more suggestive of a health/mental health situation to me. 

Another training philosophy to look up that integrates pretty easily into a busy daily life and can help with resource guarding is the Nothing In Life Is Free approach. Basically, your dog has to earn everything it gets, from a pat to dinner, by performing little tasks like sit, down, paw, whatever. It's actually fun for them but is great for establishing clear boundaries. 

leprechaunlady

Its a horrible situation to be in & can completely understand being torn & wanting the best situation for all involved but my opinion is that ultimately the safety of your toddler & later on the new baby is priority & if the dog cannot be trusted round your children be that for any reason (medical or otherwise) then he needs to not be in the house.

birdiejo

@imalwaysme79 @blondepeanut

He had a full evaluation about two months ago.. The anxiety thing is interesting to consider and I'll definitely look into it. The thing is he is a very happy go lucky, sweet, gentle dog most of the time. 

@xstatic3333 Some of the biting has occurred when food is involved but the human incidents were like giving him a pat while he's lying down on a couch. My husbands experience, he gave him a kiss while they were sitting next to each other and he bit his mouth. I think you could potentially say well he took ownership of the couch in those situations or he was sleepy in the situation with my husband. I'm not sure? It seems mainly territorial. We used to have a crate for him that he was constantly in but then it became dangerous to walk up to him or by him while he was in it because he would lash out if you got too close. Now if he lies in any corner of our bedroom it's a trigger point. 

Xstatic3333

Wow, that is a really tough challenge, @homemake. I do think that NILIF would help with it, if only to make things more manageable in the interim while you seek out a better solution. It can help with dogs who are territorial because if they need to sit before they access their bed, their favorite corner, etc. then they start to see it as yours instead of theirs. 

It kind of make me wonder about his eyesight, too. Vets don't always spend a lot of time looking at that, but I wonder if the pats are catching him off guard or something. 

kirstynikole

I worked in the veterinary field as a vet tech/vet assistant for 6 years prior to becoming a SAHM, and have come across similar situations many times. I have to be honest when I say that your dog probably needs a new home.

Some cases of aggression can be re-programmed, but often when dealing with a dog that has physically acted on it and at his age, it can be very difficult to completely fix. Oftentimes and without knowing, we create these problems with our dogs by allowing them to assume a higher position in our "pack", or sometimes it can be a genetic predisposition that is too dominant to train out. Are there special cases that can be 100% fixed, sure, but with children in the house, it's a scary risk. We also have a dog that is skittish around new people, however she has never actually become physically aggressive.  Some things to be aware of, are body language. If your child continues to follow your dog and they keep leaving the area, it means they want to be left alone, etc. There are various other signs to look for to avoid these types of situations, but honestly it can be difficult to always have an eye out with a full house. I always make sure to read my dogs body language and never leave her in a stressful situation or alone with our toddler. As much as we love her, we know if the time ever came where she did act out physically, we would need to find her a new home.

It is a very difficult decision, and not one that comes lightly, but obviously no one should judge you for putting your kids safety first.

Xstatic3333

I had another thought. Many dogs can be conditioned, with a proper slow introduction and lots of positive reinforcement, to like wearing a muzzle. Some of them still allow the dog to eat some things and drink. This could increase everyone's safety while you move forward. 

BumpasaurusRex

I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you are dealing with this.  I like the suggestion of seeing if any of his behavior could be related to anxiety.

I'm going to be honest- rehoming him may be extremely difficult.  Even if you find someone without children or a single adult to take him in, the chances of that person never having children/other people around are slim.  The person would have to be committed to providing an environment that would allow the dog to feel safe, in addition to providing a safe space when he/she has guests over.  It absolutely can be done so there is hope.

If that doesn't work out, humane euthanasia may be the next "best" option.  It pains me to even type that out and I truly hope it doesn't come to that.

But I would exercise every possible option I could but in the end, I do agree that your children's safety comes first.

KRB22

Lurking from Jan 17

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. I think there's lots of good advice on this thread, and I absolutely agree that your children's safety comes first. 

If I were in your shoes I might try 1 last time to address the territorial behavior, but know that it might not be fully possible. And if you do end up re-homing the dog, I agree that it will be better for him in the end as well. 

We had to re-home our family dog when I was younger, and I was devastated, but now know it was the right thing to do. He was fundamentally a good dog, but he really needed a lot of one on one attention and training, and our home was too chaotic with 6 kids and friends, etc, coming in and out all the time. He went to live with a single man upstate and was definitely happier as a one-man dog. 

Before you go to a shelter it's worth looking into whether there are any local rescue organizations that would be able to help you find a new home, and potentially offer temporary foster in the meantime if necessary. Our local SPCA shelter posts courtesy listings for dogs in need of new homes, but who are not actually living at the shelter. There are also some rescue sites that specialize in specific breeds, so that could be an option as well. 

BumpasaurusRex

Just an FYI, if you do decide to go the shelter route, check to see if they take animals with a history of aggressive behavior.  Many do not, as it could be a liability on their end but some do specialize in this area or could provide the names of some places that might.

ETA I'd try to avoid shelters if possible.

expandcontract

Gingersnap said:

I'll take any and all heat for this, but if my dog had a history of aggression and biting, if he tried to bite my kid he would he out of the house. 
Maybe the backyard, maybe rehomed, but my child's safety will ALWAYS be the priority. 
Its hard enough to keep your eye on a toddler as it is, but once you have another kid around it's going to be near impossible. 
Sorry you have to deal with this, but your children have to come first. 

Of course it's easier said than done because I don't know and love the dog like you do.  But since it comes down to my babies' safety, I completely agree with what Gingersnap said.  

Also, the fact that this dog caused your other dog to go blind sounds very serious.  

birdiejo

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who responded. Seriously so much thanks. This is such a tough situation for us and everyone's responses were extremely helpful. 

cinderin

I was bitten by my mom's dog when I was about 1 year old. In the face. I had surgery and had about 30 plastic surgery stitches in my face (nose, lip, eye). 

I was lucky there was a plastic surgeon available in 1982. A perk of living near a big city. You can't tell now. my face looked like hamburger for months. And my parents had to hold me down daily and apply medicine. I cannot even immagine. 

My mom's cocker spaniel had not been agressive but was jealous of me (she was my mom's baby before I was). They gave the dog away to friends. 

I have ZERO tolerance for an agressive dog around my kiddo. We have had two dogs since we have had DS (our first dog was sweet, older and passed away, current dog is an adopted rescue who is great with him). I love dogs, but my kid comes first. 

WinchesterGirl

@homemake I don't necessarily have anything new to add, just wanted to send hugs and +1 to trying multiple avenues to find an appropriate new home. 

Vets, local rescues, dog trainers, and even feed stores (if you live rurally) would all be worth giving a call to. Often times they will have contacts who they reach out to in difficult behavioral situations. As long as you are upfront about his past issues, you hopefully have enough time before February to find him a safe home with no kids. A nice bachelor sounds like a great fit for him!

Gingersnap

Is he a specific breed? Maybe try reaching out to breed specific rescues? 

kap1988

Lurking from March '17- This is such a stressful situation to be in.  We recently adopted a stray dog that my husband found on the way home from work one day.  He bit four extended family members in the first few weeks we had him.  The difference is he is a ten pound poodle mix, he doesn't do much damage.  I was so worried when I found out I was pregnant that he would try to attack the baby.  But he has improved greatly and I think a large part of it is we have him on anti-anxiety meds.  They only cost 5 dollars for a months supply and they really help.  Good luck with whatever you decide!

hudson1029

We have two pitbull types that we rescued in the last year. One was fostered in a house with children however we don't have much history with our other. So far they have both been fine with children. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of training your dogs! Not all trainers created equal so find someone good. We used Argos Dogworks based out of Atlanta and they are amazing. We already have plans to do a few sessions with them in the next few months to make sure any little bratty behavior is fully cleaned up before the baby comes. He has tons of free content online. check them out.

mrsgabus

I am so sorry you are in this dilema. As a avid pet lover and owner , I would hate to be in your position however we have a bit of a history with some aggression. We have two dogs and they are getting older , Our beagle is food aggressive at times but luckily it is only with his brother and does not happen often.

Our beagle is kind of like an old man and will growl if he is bothered by you, he is not a biter never has been but he is vocal.

Unfortunately with all animals they cannot be fully trusted with children and this goes for even the best of animals cause at the end of the end they are animals.

In your dogs case I agree it would be best for your dog to find a new forever home with a family that doesnt have children or other animals. If you truly feel like you could keep him away from your children or that you could try training again then that would be great options too. However from the history you gave I think its time.