I guess my only concern with not signing the paperwork and making it official would be where does that leave you if you do separate? And if you are committed enough to have a child why not make it all official official with a marriage? If I'm committed enough to the relationship to have a child, I would want my other half to be committed enough to sign the paperwork out of respect for the future of the relationship. Especially if we had been together for an extended period of time. This actually hits close to home because my parents are divorced, have been for years. My dad however is and has been living with his significant other. They speak of marriage often, but to my knowledge have not done it. They purchased a home together and I don't see them separating at any point, but they have been together for a long time. When one of them is sick or on deathbed if they are not married, it could make things tricky. My mom has been in a relationship with a guy for probably as long as my dad's relationship with his other half. My mom and her "boyfriend" do not live together, but she has said she would never marry again and I really think they are just "friends" more than anything serious at this point. Just been together so long they are just there for each other out of companionship.
I guess my only concern with not signing the paperwork and making it official would be where does that leave you if you do separate? And if you are committed enough to have a child why not make it all official official with a marriage? If I'm committed enough to the relationship to have a child, I would want my other half to be committed enough to sign the paperwork out of respect for the future of the relationship. Especially if we had been together for an extended period of time. This actually hits close to home because my parents are divorced, have been for years. My dad however is and has been living with his significant other. They speak of marriage often, but to my knowledge have not done it. They purchased a home together and I don't see them separating at any point, but they have been together for a long time. When one of them is sick or on deathbed if they are not married, it could make things tricky. My mom has been in a relationship with a guy for probably as long as my dad's relationship with his other half. My mom and her "boyfriend" do not live together, but she has said she would never marry again and I really think they are just "friends" more than anything serious at this point. Just been together so long they are just there for each other out of companionship.
The difference there is no children.
I remember I had a patient once. She and her boyfriend had a courthouse wedding (no judging there), and the next day she ended up delivery (preterm). So all her paperwork still said MN. She was so furious that her babies arm bands said Smith, Sally baby girl instead of Jones, Sally baby girl. Even though the birth certificate would have Jones. She was for all legal purposes still a smith.
And call me old fashion here. I would have to that my kid will see either my marriage license and/or their birth certificate and not see us married/ different last names (at the time). My mom and I were just talking about this. We both noticed that society was very relaxed about single/unwed mothers for a long time. However, we are noticing a trend that is starting to be more conservative in people's opinion. That people (in general, not me), are starting to swing back to 'wait... you not married"? With a side eye.
Social norms will adjust and sway and it seems to be swaying to love, marriage then a baby.
Here's the thing: a good portion of married people end up divorced eventually. None of us think it will happen, and obviously no one plans for it, but it happens. A lot. The last name issues, the co-parenting issues, etc. are still going to be there for those people. But divorce is worse for kids and their parents than simply never having been married in the first place.
I say if two people are committed to each other and plan to do everything they can to work together to raise a child, who am I to judge?
Here's the thing: a good portion of married people end up divorced eventually. None of us think it will happen, and obviously no one plans for it, but it happens. A lot. The last name issues, the co-parenting issues, etc. are still going to be there for those people. But divorce is worse for kids and their parents than simply never having been married in the first place.
I say if two people are committed to each other and plan to do everything they can to work together to raise a child, who am I to judge?
How do you figure that a separation would be easier? If they are "committed to each other" as if they were married, then wouldn't it be just as detrimental as a divorce to a child in the middle? There would still be the change of environment, lack of stability, etc. I'm just throwing it out there. My parents weren't married, my mom gave custody to my dad when I was 2. She literally just packed her bags and left one day. I lived my whole life as a child of a non-marital separation, and it has done nothing but solidify my feelings on being fully committed, and married to a person before having children with them.
Here's the thing: a good portion of married people end up divorced eventually. None of us think it will happen, and obviously no one plans for it, but it happens. A lot. The last name issues, the co-parenting issues, etc. are still going to be there for those people. But divorce is worse for kids and their parents than simply never having been married in the first place.
I say if two people are committed to each other and plan to do everything they can to work together to raise a child, who am I to judge?
I disagree with divorce being worse just based on custody. The students I have that have divorced parents have a custody agreement from the divorce. Ones that have split up, don't always have that and it becomes a battle. I shouldn't have to referee screaming parents and crying children, but I do on a weekly basis. I shouldn't have to make CPS reports every week when I leave on Fridays due to parents not deciding who has the kids on the weekend.
@Linsbins - the parents who have split up who were never married should have a court order, though. Most do, at least in my state, because that is how child support is generated. Here the attorney general's office does that and there is a standard visitation schedule that is usually put in place. In a divorce, the same situation you've described could happen if the parents haven't finalized their divorce. Sometimes it takes years.
Attorney's fees, litigation, and legal battles are bad for parents and bad for kids. Divorce means more attorney's fees, more litigation, and more of a legal battle. Oftentimes in a divorce the family home has to be sold. Sometimes kids get hauled into court to talk to the judge. Sometimes kids are subjected to home studies where a professional comes and questions everyone about the living environment. Sometimes false allegations of child abuse are made. Sometimes kids are there when mom or dad gets served with divorce paperwork. The amount of time and stress that divorce causes is beyond belief.
Of course, there can be a legal battle with a separation even if there was never a marriage. It is just usually less dramatic, less expensive, and less damaging because there are fewer legal issues.
All other things being equal, marriage doesn't provide any more stability for kids than non-marriage. What provides stability is the parents' commitment to each other. If two people are completely committed to each other and will work through issues to stay together, that's the ideal, regardless of whether or not they're married. What is worst is when people who are not committed end up conceiving and marry just because of the pregnancy. Then a nasty divorce is almost guaranteed.
@Linsbins - the parents who have split up who were never married should have a court order, though. Most do, at least in my state, because that is how child support is generated. Here the attorney general's office does that and there is a standard visitation schedule that is usually put in place. In a divorce, the same situation you've described could happen if the parents haven't finalized their divorce. Sometimes it takes years.
Attorney's fees, litigation, and legal battles are bad for parents and bad for kids. Divorce means more attorney's fees, more litigation, and more of a legal battle. Oftentimes in a divorce the family home has to be sold. Sometimes kids get hauled into court to talk to the judge. Sometimes kids are subjected to home studies where a professional comes and questions everyone about the living environment. Sometimes false allegations of child abuse are made. Sometimes kids are there when mom or dad gets served with divorce paperwork. The amount of time and stress that divorce causes is beyond belief.
Of course, there can be a legal battle with a separation even if there was never a marriage. It is just usually less dramatic, less expensive, and less damaging because there are fewer legal issues.
All other things being equal, marriage doesn't provide any more stability for kids than non-marriage. What provides stability is the parents' commitment to each other. If two people are completely committed to each other and will work through issues to stay together, that's the ideal, regardless of whether or not they're married. What is worst is when people who are not committed end up conceiving and marry just because of the pregnancy. Then a nasty divorce is almost guaranteed.
In theory, yes. I guess working in a poor area has something to do with it. None of the unmarried parents have submitted court orders to us, and I haven't heard of any divorces pulling kids in like that. They generally just do the paperwork and agree to stuff because they don't have the money to pay for fighting over anything. That's my experience with it. I have no divorced friends or parents.
When I enrolled my daughter in school they wanted a copy of our parenting plan. I had to explain that we don't follow it, that it's just there in case communication breaks down and that if her father is there to get her he's allowed to. That it wasn't a volatile situation. We both love our daughter far more then we hate one another. It's heartbreaking that the default position of divorced or separated parents is that it's a hateful situation. Our daughter sees us as friends. Even if I'd rather never talk to or think about him ever again, I however don't get that luxury and would happily give it up 100 times over to have my DD.
There are so many people out there (especially in conservative, rural areas like where I live) that get married young, maybe after dating for 6 months to a year, and then have babies right away when they are in their early 20s. Many times these relationships end in a divorce that splits up the family just a few years later. How is getting married and pregnant so quickly more responsible than a committed couple that has been in a domestic partnership for five years wanting to start a family? The fact is, in both situations there's always the risk of a family being split up. To each his own.
There are so many people out there (especially in conservative, rural areas like where I live) that get married young, maybe after dating for 6 months to a year, and then have babies right away when they are in their early 20s. Many times these relationships end in a divorce that splits up the family just a few years later. How is getting married and pregnant so quickly more responsible than a committed couple that has been in a domestic partnership for five years wanting to start a family? The fact is, in both situations there's always the risk of a family being split up. To each his own.
That's comparing apples to oranges. No one said the former was better than the latter. In fact, the latter situation is much better.
The general consensus is that a child is a bigger commitment than marriage, so why would marriage be a bigger deal? That's all.
LFAF February Siggy Challenge - "Favorite TV/Movie Couple"
My SO and I have been engaged for.. oof, five years or something. We kind of said it to each other on a whim, no real proposal, but it's felt like an engagement ever since. Because I was still studying at the time, we couldn't afford a wedding. I am only now (finally) starting to work a proper near-full time job which will give us a chance to properly save up some money. Thing is though.. if we had to choose what to put our money into, we'd rather spend it on our children than a wedding. Of course it would be awesome if we managed to do both and we may still decide to do a quick and cheap ceremoney to get legally married if only because it makes taxes and paperwork etc. easier, but I'd really rather start up our kid's/kids' college fund rather than blow it all in one day, tbh?
My SO and I have been engaged for.. oof, five years or something. We kind of said it to each other on a whim, no real proposal, but it's felt like an engagement ever since. Because I was still studying at the time, we couldn't afford a wedding. I am only now (finally) starting to work a proper near-full time job which will give us a chance to properly save up some money. Thing is though.. if we had to choose what to put our money into, we'd rather spend it on our children than a wedding. Of course it would be awesome if we managed to do both and we may still decide to do a quick and cheap ceremoney to get legally married if only because it makes taxes and paperwork etc. easier, but I'd really rather start up our kid's/kids' college fund rather than blow it all in one day, tbh?
Getting married doesn't have to be expensive. It's about the commitment, not the party.
You can get married in a courtroom, a small ceremony, or a private ceremony for fairly inexpensive if it's really important for you to be married.
That is very true, I forgot to add that in my post. Thing is, if I'm going to get married (when, more like), it's a party I'd like to share with friends and family properly, which will cost money. If I had to make a choice (which I'm hoping I won't have to, obviously), I'd rather spend it on my kids (which I don't have yet). It's all a lot of 'what ifs' over here at the moment, haha
I don't know, by the way, if you've got this in America, but in the Netherlands you can also take a different route than marriage, I believe. It's called a 'samenlevingscontract'. Some people here, including some people I know, simply don't 'believe' in marriage (for whatever reason - anyone's entitled to their opinions and ideas of course) and then this is a fairly good way to make sure things are arranged properly, especially when there's children involved.
Re: Anybody not married??
LFAF Summer 2016 Awards:
I remember I had a patient once. She and her boyfriend had a courthouse wedding (no judging there), and the next day she ended up delivery (preterm). So all her paperwork still said MN. She was so furious that her babies arm bands said Smith, Sally baby girl instead of Jones, Sally baby girl. Even though the birth certificate would have Jones. She was for all legal purposes still a smith.
And call me old fashion here. I would have to that my kid will see either my marriage license and/or their birth certificate and not see us married/ different last names (at the time).
My mom and I were just talking about this. We both noticed that society was very relaxed about single/unwed mothers for a long time. However, we are noticing a trend that is starting to be more conservative in people's opinion. That people (in general, not me), are starting to swing back to 'wait... you not married"? With a side eye.
Social norms will adjust and sway and it seems to be swaying to love, marriage then a baby.
Me: 33 H: 36
Married: 12/14/13 DS: 1/29/09
BFP2: 10/9/15 MMC: 11/12/15
BFP3: 4/6/16 DD: 12/12/16
How do you figure that a separation would be easier? If they are "committed to each other" as if they were married, then wouldn't it be just as detrimental as a divorce to a child in the middle? There would still be the change of environment, lack of stability, etc. I'm just throwing it out there. My parents weren't married, my mom gave custody to my dad when I was 2. She literally just packed her bags and left one day. I lived my whole life as a child of a non-marital separation, and it has done nothing but solidify my feelings on being fully committed, and married to a person before having children with them.
Me: 33 H: 36
Married: 12/14/13 DS: 1/29/09
BFP2: 10/9/15 MMC: 11/12/15
BFP3: 4/6/16 DD: 12/12/16
LFAF February Siggy Challenge - "Favorite TV/Movie Couple"
DD: 10/17/13
TTC#2 Actively: 10/14, NTNP: 01/14
Left-Sided Hydrosalpinx (cause: genetic abnormality, TREATED 11/16)
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/396b04
Me: 33 H: 36
Married: 12/14/13 DS: 1/29/09
BFP2: 10/9/15 MMC: 11/12/15
BFP3: 4/6/16 DD: 12/12/16
The general consensus is that a child is a bigger commitment than marriage, so why would marriage be a bigger deal? That's all.
LFAF February Siggy Challenge - "Favorite TV/Movie Couple"
DD: 10/17/13
TTC#2 Actively: 10/14, NTNP: 01/14
Left-Sided Hydrosalpinx (cause: genetic abnormality, TREATED 11/16)
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/396b04
Thing is though.. if we had to choose what to put our money into, we'd rather spend it on our children than a wedding. Of course it would be awesome if we managed to do both and we may still decide to do a quick and cheap ceremoney to get legally married if only because it makes taxes and paperwork etc. easier, but I'd really rather start up our kid's/kids' college fund rather than blow it all in one day, tbh?
You can get married in a courtroom, a small ceremony, or a private ceremony for fairly inexpensive if it's really important for you to be married.
It's all a lot of 'what ifs' over here at the moment, haha
I don't know, by the way, if you've got this in America, but in the Netherlands you can also take a different route than marriage, I believe. It's called a 'samenlevingscontract'. Some people here, including some people I know, simply don't 'believe' in marriage (for whatever reason - anyone's entitled to their opinions and ideas of course) and then this is a fairly good way to make sure things are arranged properly, especially when there's children involved.