I would much rather deal with a year or two of saving myself for the time I plan on taking off than have both me and my husband pay insanely high taxes our entire career.It's not like the government has a tree that they just go pluck dollar bills from.Nothing is ever free and I don't see the point of the government as the middle man.But that's probably an UO.
It would not cost "insanely high taxes". And it would be a cost I would definitely be able and willing to pay. Every mother deserves time off to be with her baby, even if she could not afford to save for maternity leave. Have you watched the video? Not everyone makes enough money to do this for themselves and even non-rich people should be able to procreate. Also, why should a baby suffer because her mother is not rich enough to save for maternity leave.
Here is an article from fortune estimating the cost of a maternity leave would be less than $1 per week per worker.
We live in a society and we all benefit from longer leaves for mothers. Healthier babies. Longer breastfeeding. Healthier Women. Women who will keep their jobs instead of quitting because they have to go back to work at 2 weeks.
Personally, I an attorney at a big law firm. I got 12 weeks paid from my accounting firm when I had a first baby, but took 6 extra weeks because I got a new job. I got 16 weeks paid from my law firm when I had my second baby. Around 12-16 weeks, you start feeling human again. I don't understand why we can't come together and help all families. Even women who work cleaning my office or at the McDonald's should be able to stay with their babies for a reasonable time.
Disagree. If you can't afford children without government assistance you shouldn't have them. Period.
It would be nice it we could sterilize all poor people so they wouldn't have babies, but that is not reality.
Or heaven forbid people just wait to have children until they are financially able. My husband is a Correctional Officer and I'm a Paralegal. We're saving for a maternity leave and then I will probably work part time if at all. It's not like we're attorneys or doctors. People either need to wait to have kids or lower their standard of living if they really feel they can't get by on one income. My mother lives in Canada and her husband makes way more than me and mine combined. Yet they are scraping by because of taxes.
I would much rather deal with a year or two of saving myself for the time I plan on taking off than have both me and my husband pay insanely high taxes our entire career.It's not like the government has a tree that they just go pluck dollar bills from.Nothing is ever free and I don't see the point of the government as the middle man.But that's probably an UO.
It would not cost "insanely high taxes". And it would be a cost I would definitely be able and willing to pay. Every mother deserves time off to be with her baby, even if she could not afford to save for maternity leave. Have you watched the video? Not everyone makes enough money to do this for themselves and even non-rich people should be able to procreate. Also, why should a baby suffer because her mother is not rich enough to save for maternity leave.
Here is an article from fortune estimating the cost of a maternity leave would be less than $1 per week per worker.
We live in a society and we all benefit from longer leaves for mothers. Healthier babies. Longer breastfeeding. Healthier Women. Women who will keep their jobs instead of quitting because they have to go back to work at 2 weeks.
Personally, I an attorney at a big law firm. I got 12 weeks paid from my accounting firm when I had a first baby, but took 6 extra weeks because I got a new job. I got 16 weeks paid from my law firm when I had my second baby. Around 12-16 weeks, you start feeling human again. I don't understand why we can't come together and help all families. Even women who work cleaning my office or at the McDonald's should be able to stay with their babies for a reasonable time.
Disagree. If you can't afford children without government assistance you shouldn't have them. Period.
It would be nice it we could sterilize all poor people so they wouldn't have babies, but that is not reality.
Or heaven forbid people just wait to have children until they are financially able. My husband is a Correctional Officer and I'm a Paralegal. We're saving for a maternity leave and then I will probably work part time if at all. It's not like we're attorneys or doctors. People either need to wait to have kids or lower their standard of living if they really feel they can't get by on one income. My mother lives in Canada and her husband makes way more than me and mine combined. Yet they are scraping by because of taxes.
Not everyone is as responsible as you are. It's just not going to happen.
Some people will never be financially able to save for maternity leave. They should never have children? But regardless of whether they "should," they will.
People who argue against paid maternity leave are the same ones that argue against providing birth control and abortions. With the same argument that everyone should take care of themselves. Yes, maybe they should, but they don't and maybe they can't. But we can't even bring ourselves to help pay a tiny amount for birth control to avoid having to help pay a huge amount for raising a child.
"Affluent women are usually strategic about their decision to have kids. They have multiple conversations with their partners. They write budgets and plan the best time for maternity leave. It's hard for this group to understand why a woman would decide to give birth without her rubber ducks in a row. But Cherlin says low-income mothers grow up in environments where it's normal to rely on welfare, part-time jobs and family to raise a baby. A child doesn't need to fit into their lives; their lives will bend to accommodate a new addition.
Even if they don't want a baby, many pregnant women feel their only option is to give birth. They may not have the education or funds to prioritize birth control. They may not have the money or support to have an abortion."
Huffington Post is known to be fairly left wing so I'm not surprised. I'm also not against helping people in need, but I've seen time and time again women purposely having as many children as they want with whomever to get more child tax credits and welfare dollars. It's sickening. I came from nothing, paid for my own education, found my own good paying job and have made my own way. I didn't have the best childhood either and I put some big girl panties on and didn't/don't expect anyone to pay for me. It gets very, VERY frustrating.
And this may be an unpopular opinion but yes....if certain people can NEVER afford it, they should NEVER have children. It's not everyone else's responsibility to pay for other people's children just because they 'want' one...or two...or three.....
Also, birth control is extremely affordable here and you can get free condoms from many different centers.
Edit: because I sound really harsh and this topic fires me up so please don't take anything personal!
Though with my profession, I won't be Allowed in the operation theatre once I get bfp.
What will you do for the next 9 months?
I am an orthopedic surgeon, can't operate while pregnant, it's the hospital rules, high levels of stress and long hours which is standing obviously. So before we started ttc, I started counselling, for patients and family before and after surgery. I might be able to do minor OT, but who knows.
I would much rather deal with a year or two of saving myself for the time I plan on taking off than have both me and my husband pay insanely high taxes our entire career.It's not like the government has a tree that they just go pluck dollar bills from.Nothing is ever free and I don't see the point of the government as the middle man.But that's probably an UO.
It would not cost "insanely high taxes". And it would be a cost I would definitely be able and willing to pay. Every mother deserves time off to be with her baby, even if she could not afford to save for maternity leave. Have you watched the video? Not everyone makes enough money to do this for themselves and even non-rich people should be able to procreate. Also, why should a baby suffer because her mother is not rich enough to save for maternity leave.
Here is an article from fortune estimating the cost of a maternity leave would be less than $1 per week per worker.
We live in a society and we all benefit from longer leaves for mothers. Healthier babies. Longer breastfeeding. Healthier Women. Women who will keep their jobs instead of quitting because they have to go back to work at 2 weeks.
Personally, I an attorney at a big law firm. I got 12 weeks paid from my accounting firm when I had a first baby, but took 6 extra weeks because I got a new job. I got 16 weeks paid from my law firm when I had my second baby. Around 12-16 weeks, you start feeling human again. I don't understand why we can't come together and help all families. Even women who work cleaning my office or at the McDonald's should be able to stay with their babies for a reasonable time.
Disagree. If you can't afford children without government assistance you shouldn't have them. Period.
It would be nice it we could sterilize all poor people so they wouldn't have babies, but that is not reality.
Or heaven forbid people just wait to have children until they are financially able. My husband is a Correctional Officer and I'm a Paralegal. We're saving for a maternity leave and then I will probably work part time if at all. It's not like we're attorneys or doctors. People either need to wait to have kids or lower their standard of living if they really feel they can't get by on one income. My mother lives in Canada and her husband makes way more than me and mine combined. Yet they are scraping by because of taxes.
Not everyone is as responsible as you are. It's just not going to happen.
Some people will never be financially able to save for maternity leave. They should never have children? But regardless of whether they "should," they will.
People who argue against paid maternity leave are the same ones that argue against providing birth control and abortions. With the same argument that everyone should take care of themselves. Yes, maybe they should, but they don't and maybe they can't. But we can't even bring ourselves to help pay a tiny amount for birth control to avoid having to help pay a huge amount for raising a child.
"Affluent women are usually strategic about their decision to have kids. They have multiple conversations with their partners. They write budgets and plan the best time for maternity leave. It's hard for this group to understand why a woman would decide to give birth without her rubber ducks in a row. But Cherlin says low-income mothers grow up in environments where it's normal to rely on welfare, part-time jobs and family to raise a baby. A child doesn't need to fit into their lives; their lives will bend to accommodate a new addition.
Even if they don't want a baby, many pregnant women feel their only option is to give birth. They may not have the education or funds to prioritize birth control. They may not have the money or support to have an abortion."
That's true, I don't agree with abortion, and I think people should pay for their own birth control. I agree that we need to help lower income families, but I just don't see how throwing money at it has helped. It is very hard for me to see people having babies willy nilly with no plans in place. When, like you've pointed out, I and other women on this board try so hard to get our ducks in a row. I'm also sorry if I sound harsh
Huffington Post is known to be fairly left wing so I'm not surprised. I'm also not against helping people in need, but I've seen time and time again women purposely having as many children as they want with whomever to get more child tax credits and welfare dollars. It's sickening.
I will say that I very much dislike this type of argument. It comes up very often in the discussion about food stamps (I know it's not stamps anymore...is it SNAP now?) Just because SOME people abuse the system doesn't mean that ALL or even MOST do. And that also doesn't mean we should totally get rid of (or in this case never allow) a program that could really help people and society as a whole because we're too afraid of the few bad apples.
Huffington Post is known to be fairly left wing so I'm not surprised. I'm also not against helping people in need, but I've seen time and time again women purposely having as many children as they want with whomever to get more child tax credits and welfare dollars. It's sickening.
I will say that I very much dislike this type of argument. It comes up very often in the discussion about food stamps (I know it's not stamps anymore...is it SNAP now?) Just because SOME people abuse the system doesn't mean that ALL or even MOST do. And that also doesn't mean we should totally get rid of (or in this case never allow) a program that could really help people and society as a whole because we're too afraid of the few bad apples.
Agreed. Also maternity leaves benefit everyone who has a child. Rich, poor, middle-classed. Society has to learn to respect mothers, families and children if they want a good future. Our children are our future but things need to be set in place to help give them the most advantages in life. A big one is mothers being able to bond with their child in their first year of life, and be set up to succeed if they want to breastfeed. The selfish aspect of it needs to be blown far far away....you aren't giving something of yours to someone else, you are setting up society to have a better situation for having a child, and that benefits everyone.
ETA: first *year* of life, not their first life lol
Me: 31 SO: 34
TTC since January 1, 2015. Together we have three boys who are 4 (mine), 7 (his) and 10 (his).
CP (July 2015) and M/C @ 5w (Feb. 2016)
DX Unexplained Secondary Infertility
3 rounds of Clomid - BFNs (Nov/Dec '15, May '16) 2 IUIs - BFNs (May & June '17) IVF August 2017 - BFP!! First Beta - 365
I would much rather deal with a year or two of saving myself for the time I plan on taking off than have both me and my husband pay insanely high taxes our entire career.It's not like the government has a tree that they just go pluck dollar bills from.Nothing is ever free and I don't see the point of the government as the middle man.But that's probably an UO.
I live in a country with insanely high taxes and I love it. Knowing that whatever happens, I have access to high quality, almost free health care and that DD will get great efucation for free, it's priceless. I'm so glad I don't have to worry all the time about stuff like that.
Also, not just moms benefit from maternity leave. Even if a mom makes poor life choices, I do believe paid maternity leave is in the best interest of babies, too. I'm quite happy to contribute to that.
I would much rather deal with a year or two of saving myself for the time I plan on taking off than have both me and my husband pay insanely high taxes our entire career.It's not like the government has a tree that they just go pluck dollar bills from.Nothing is ever free and I don't see the point of the government as the middle man.But that's probably an UO.
It would not cost "insanely high taxes". And it would be a cost I would definitely be able and willing to pay. Every mother deserves time off to be with her baby, even if she could not afford to save for maternity leave. Have you watched the video? Not everyone makes enough money to do this for themselves and even non-rich people should be able to procreate. Also, why should a baby suffer because her mother is not rich enough to save for maternity leave.
Here is an article from fortune estimating the cost of a maternity leave would be less than $1 per week per worker.
We live in a society and we all benefit from longer leaves for mothers. Healthier babies. Longer breastfeeding. Healthier Women. Women who will keep their jobs instead of quitting because they have to go back to work at 2 weeks.
Personally, I an attorney at a big law firm. I got 12 weeks paid from my accounting firm when I had a first baby, but took 6 extra weeks because I got a new job. I got 16 weeks paid from my law firm when I had my second baby. Around 12-16 weeks, you start feeling human again. I don't understand why we can't come together and help all families. Even women who work cleaning my office or at the McDonald's should be able to stay with their babies for a reasonable time.
Disagree. If you can't afford children without government assistance you shouldn't have them. Period.
It would be nice it we could sterilize all poor people so they wouldn't have babies, but that is not reality.
Or heaven forbid people just wait to have children until they are financially able. My husband is a Correctional Officer and I'm a Paralegal. We're saving for a maternity leave and then I will probably work part time if at all. It's not like we're attorneys or doctors. People either need to wait to have kids or lower their standard of living if they really feel they can't get by on one income. My mother lives in Canada and her husband makes way more than me and mine combined. Yet they are scraping by because of taxes.
Not everyone is as responsible as you are. It's just not going to happen.
Some people will never be financially able to save for maternity leave. They should never have children? But regardless of whether they "should," they will.
People who argue against paid maternity leave are the same ones that argue against providing birth control and abortions. With the same argument that everyone should take care of themselves. Yes, maybe they should, but they don't and maybe they can't. But we can't even bring ourselves to help pay a tiny amount for birth control to avoid having to help pay a huge amount for raising a child.
"Affluent women are usually strategic about their decision to have kids. They have multiple conversations with their partners. They write budgets and plan the best time for maternity leave. It's hard for this group to understand why a woman would decide to give birth without her rubber ducks in a row. But Cherlin says low-income mothers grow up in environments where it's normal to rely on welfare, part-time jobs and family to raise a baby. A child doesn't need to fit into their lives; their lives will bend to accommodate a new addition.
Even if they don't want a baby, many pregnant women feel their only option is to give birth. They may not have the education or funds to prioritize birth control. They may not have the money or support to have an abortion."
That's true, I don't agree with abortion, and I think people should pay for their own birth control. I agree that we need to help lower income families, but I just don't see how throwing money at it has helped. It is very hard for me to see people having babies willy nilly with no plans in place. When, like you've pointed out, I and other women on this board try so hard to get our ducks in a row. I'm also sorry if I sound harsh
So what you're saying is poor people can't have sex? If they shouldn't have kids unless they can pay for them and they should pay for their own birth control, and they can't get an abortion if something unexpected does happen, then what is the plan?
Also, your taxes will be higher if you take away government assistance from families. That's when kids end up in foster care, which is far more expensive.
Me: 28, DH: 28 Diagnosed with PCOS: Summer 2007 Married: July 2013 Began TTC: June 2015
Huffington Post is known to be fairly left wing so I'm not surprised. I'm also not against helping people in need, but I've seen time and time again women purposely having as many children as they want with whomever to get more child tax credits and welfare dollars. It's sickening.
I will say that I very much dislike this type of argument. It comes up very often in the discussion about food stamps (I know it's not stamps anymore...is it SNAP now?) Just because SOME people abuse the system doesn't mean that ALL or even MOST do. And that also doesn't mean we should totally get rid of (or in this case never allow) a program that could really help people and society as a whole because we're too afraid of the few bad apples.
Perhaps this is a regional argument and opinions will change based on the area you live in. I work in a rural hospital, our towns entire population is under 1,000 people. So pretty much you know everyone in town, their story and their parents story. We have elderly who have outlived thier retirement and need govt assistance. I get that and dont mind tax dollars going thier one bit .We also have a lot of abuse of the welfare system, people in their 20s and 30s who could get jobs but choose not to have them. I've had multiple mothers not want children but think they will receive more money by having another child. Of course if you are on the left or the right wing of this debate I think most will agree raising a child costs more then what the govt will give you. I personally would not mind paying taxes for maternity leave but I understand why many taxpayers would dislike it, where they see that their tax dollars get abused regularly as well.
There are always people who are going to abuse systems, but how can you really abuse a maternity leave program? You have to be working in order to get it. Apples and oranges.
People who take advantage will no matter what is in place. SO's ex-wife never worked, and when they got divorced she still didn't work. He pays her a ridiculous amount of child support, and she lives off of it, so he basically pays for her apartment, bills, groceries, cigarettes...when that money is supposed to be for his children. She couldn't split the debt they acquired because she could claim bankruptcy and it would still fall on his shoulders. He wants shared custody and could get it, but in the normal shared custody the child support goes down according to what the other person makes, but she won't ever work so he will still pay the same (large) amount, then have more costs for having his kids more often (we have them every weekend now). <-----an entitled asshole who takes advantage and it still has nothing to do with a government program. She actually was denied welfare. Assholes are everywhere regardless of what programs are and aren't in place. Programs shouldn't not happen because there are those type of people around, because the majority of people aren't like that.
Me: 31 SO: 34
TTC since January 1, 2015. Together we have three boys who are 4 (mine), 7 (his) and 10 (his).
CP (July 2015) and M/C @ 5w (Feb. 2016)
DX Unexplained Secondary Infertility
3 rounds of Clomid - BFNs (Nov/Dec '15, May '16) 2 IUIs - BFNs (May & June '17) IVF August 2017 - BFP!! First Beta - 365
I live in a state that doesn't offer short term disability. I already looked into it So I get 12 weeks unpaid but I'll probably have to take only 6.
Edit: so I see a lot of people complaining that they have to take short term disability and it irks me because I can't even do that. Please be happy it's available to you. Ohio doesn't participate.
Him:31♥Me:27
NTNP#1 since 12/14, TTC#1 since 4/15 LPD diagnosis 9/15 Femara + TI #1: 12/15 - 1/16 = BFN Femara + Ovidrel + TI #2: 1/16 - 2/16 = BFN Femara + Ovidrel + TI #3: 2/16 - 3/16 = BFP (Squish) 3/18/16, no growth/HB 4/12/16, MC on 5/3/16 Taking a break from trying to focus on graduate school!
I would much rather deal with a year or two of saving myself for the time I plan on taking off than have both me and my husband pay insanely high taxes our entire career.It's not like the government has a tree that they just go pluck dollar bills from.Nothing is ever free and I don't see the point of the government as the middle man.But that's probably an UO.
It would not cost "insanely high taxes". And it would be a cost I would definitely be able and willing to pay. Every mother deserves time off to be with her baby, even if she could not afford to save for maternity leave. Have you watched the video? Not everyone makes enough money to do this for themselves and even non-rich people should be able to procreate. Also, why should a baby suffer because her mother is not rich enough to save for maternity leave.
Here is an article from fortune estimating the cost of a maternity leave would be less than $1 per week per worker.
We live in a society and we all benefit from longer leaves for mothers. Healthier babies. Longer breastfeeding. Healthier Women. Women who will keep their jobs instead of quitting because they have to go back to work at 2 weeks.
Personally, I an attorney at a big law firm. I got 12 weeks paid from my accounting firm when I had a first baby, but took 6 extra weeks because I got a new job. I got 16 weeks paid from my law firm when I had my second baby. Around 12-16 weeks, you start feeling human again. I don't understand why we can't come together and help all families. Even women who work cleaning my office or at the McDonald's should be able to stay with their babies for a reasonable time.
Disagree. If you can't afford children without government assistance you shouldn't have them. Period.
It would be nice it we could sterilize all poor people so they wouldn't have babies, but that is not reality.
Or heaven forbid people just wait to have children until they are financially able. My husband is a Correctional Officer and I'm a Paralegal. We're saving for a maternity leave and then I will probably work part time if at all. It's not like we're attorneys or doctors. People either need to wait to have kids or lower their standard of living if they really feel they can't get by on one income. My mother lives in Canada and her husband makes way more than me and mine combined. Yet they are scraping by because of taxes.
Not everyone is as responsible as you are. It's just not going to happen.
Some people will never be financially able to save for maternity leave. They should never have children? But regardless of whether they "should," they will.
People who argue against paid maternity leave are the same ones that argue against providing birth control and abortions. With the same argument that everyone should take care of themselves. Yes, maybe they should, but they don't and maybe they can't. But we can't even bring ourselves to help pay a tiny amount for birth control to avoid having to help pay a huge amount for raising a child.
"Affluent women are usually strategic about their decision to have kids. They have multiple conversations with their partners. They write budgets and plan the best time for maternity leave. It's hard for this group to understand why a woman would decide to give birth without her rubber ducks in a row. But Cherlin says low-income mothers grow up in environments where it's normal to rely on welfare, part-time jobs and family to raise a baby. A child doesn't need to fit into their lives; their lives will bend to accommodate a new addition.
Even if they don't want a baby, many pregnant women feel their only option is to give birth. They may not have the education or funds to prioritize birth control. They may not have the money or support to have an abortion."
That's true, I don't agree with abortion, and I think people should pay for their own birth control. I agree that we need to help lower income families, but I just don't see how throwing money at it has helped. It is very hard for me to see people having babies willy nilly with no plans in place. When, like you've pointed out, I and other women on this board try so hard to get our ducks in a row. I'm also sorry if I sound harsh
So what you're saying is poor people can't have sex? If they shouldn't have kids unless they can pay for them and they should pay for their own birth control, and they can't get an abortion if something unexpected does happen, then what is the plan?
Also, your taxes will be higher if you take away government assistance from families. That's when kids end up in foster care, which is far more expensive.
If they sincerely don't have the money for condoms and they don't have the money to raise the children they produce and they don't feel like giving up said kids then no they probably shouldn't be procreating.
If I honestly saw government assistance lifting people out of poverty I'd be all for it.But all I see is the government helping to perpetuate the cycle of poverty and dependence on the government.
It's interesting how you can all come up with every excuse in the book to defend people who can't perform even the most basic tasks like caring for their own children and yet you think I'm mean for not wanting to be responsible for caring for other people's children.
As cattlebride said, paid maternity leave doesn't bother me as much as other things, but really when does it end? My sister is 23 with two babies and she and her boyfriend get free food, housing, healthcare, and pretty much every program the state of California offers as her boyfriends parents did, and now her children do...The government cannot replace the family. We need to focus on fixing families instead of giving everyone more free stuff.
I would much rather deal with a year or two of saving myself for the time I plan on taking off than have both me and my husband pay insanely high taxes our entire career.It's not like the government has a tree that they just go pluck dollar bills from.Nothing is ever free and I don't see the point of the government as the middle man.But that's probably an UO.
It would not cost "insanely high taxes". And it would be a cost I would definitely be able and willing to pay. Every mother deserves time off to be with her baby, even if she could not afford to save for maternity leave. Have you watched the video? Not everyone makes enough money to do this for themselves and even non-rich people should be able to procreate. Also, why should a baby suffer because her mother is not rich enough to save for maternity leave.
Here is an article from fortune estimating the cost of a maternity leave would be less than $1 per week per worker.
We live in a society and we all benefit from longer leaves for mothers. Healthier babies. Longer breastfeeding. Healthier Women. Women who will keep their jobs instead of quitting because they have to go back to work at 2 weeks.
Personally, I an attorney at a big law firm. I got 12 weeks paid from my accounting firm when I had a first baby, but took 6 extra weeks because I got a new job. I got 16 weeks paid from my law firm when I had my second baby. Around 12-16 weeks, you start feeling human again. I don't understand why we can't come together and help all families. Even women who work cleaning my office or at the McDonald's should be able to stay with their babies for a reasonable time.
Disagree. If you can't afford children without government assistance you shouldn't have them. Period.
It would be nice it we could sterilize all poor people so they wouldn't have babies, but that is not reality.
Or heaven forbid people just wait to have children until they are financially able. My husband is a Correctional Officer and I'm a Paralegal. We're saving for a maternity leave and then I will probably work part time if at all. It's not like we're attorneys or doctors. People either need to wait to have kids or lower their standard of living if they really feel they can't get by on one income. My mother lives in Canada and her husband makes way more than me and mine combined. Yet they are scraping by because of taxes.
Not everyone is as responsible as you are. It's just not going to happen.
Some people will never be financially able to save for maternity leave. They should never have children? But regardless of whether they "should," they will.
People who argue against paid maternity leave are the same ones that argue against providing birth control and abortions. With the same argument that everyone should take care of themselves. Yes, maybe they should, but they don't and maybe they can't. But we can't even bring ourselves to help pay a tiny amount for birth control to avoid having to help pay a huge amount for raising a child.
"Affluent women are usually strategic about their decision to have kids. They have multiple conversations with their partners. They write budgets and plan the best time for maternity leave. It's hard for this group to understand why a woman would decide to give birth without her rubber ducks in a row. But Cherlin says low-income mothers grow up in environments where it's normal to rely on welfare, part-time jobs and family to raise a baby. A child doesn't need to fit into their lives; their lives will bend to accommodate a new addition.
Even if they don't want a baby, many pregnant women feel their only option is to give birth. They may not have the education or funds to prioritize birth control. They may not have the money or support to have an abortion."
That's true, I don't agree with abortion, and I think people should pay for their own birth control. I agree that we need to help lower income families, but I just don't see how throwing money at it has helped. It is very hard for me to see people having babies willy nilly with no plans in place. When, like you've pointed out, I and other women on this board try so hard to get our ducks in a row. I'm also sorry if I sound harsh
So what you're saying is poor people can't have sex? If they shouldn't have kids unless they can pay for them and they should pay for their own birth control, and they can't get an abortion if something unexpected does happen, then what is the plan?
Also, your taxes will be higher if you take away government assistance from families. That's when kids end up in foster care, which is far more expensive.
If they sincerely don't have the money for condoms and they don't have the money to raise the children they produce and they don't feel like giving up said kids then no they probably shouldn't be procreating.
If I honestly saw government assistance lifting people out of poverty I'd be all for it.But all I see is the government helping to perpetuate the cycle of poverty and dependence on the government.
It's interesting how you can all come up with every excuse in the book to defend people who can't perform even the most basic tasks like caring for their own children and yet you think I'm mean for not wanting to be responsible for caring for other people's children.
As cattlebride said, paid maternity leave doesn't bother me as much as other things, but really when does it end? My sister is 23 with two babies and she and her boyfriend get free food, housing, healthcare, and pretty much every program the state of California offers as her boyfriends parents did, and now her children do...The government cannot replace the family. We need to focus on fixing families instead of giving everyone more free stuff.
I would much rather deal with a year or two of saving myself for the time I plan on taking off than have both me and my husband pay insanely high taxes our entire career.It's not like the government has a tree that they just go pluck dollar bills from.Nothing is ever free and I don't see the point of the government as the middle man.But that's probably an UO.
It would not cost "insanely high taxes". And it would be a cost I would definitely be able and willing to pay. Every mother deserves time off to be with her baby, even if she could not afford to save for maternity leave. Have you watched the video? Not everyone makes enough money to do this for themselves and even non-rich people should be able to procreate. Also, why should a baby suffer because her mother is not rich enough to save for maternity leave.
Here is an article from fortune estimating the cost of a maternity leave would be less than $1 per week per worker.
We live in a society and we all benefit from longer leaves for mothers. Healthier babies. Longer breastfeeding. Healthier Women. Women who will keep their jobs instead of quitting because they have to go back to work at 2 weeks.
Personally, I an attorney at a big law firm. I got 12 weeks paid from my accounting firm when I had a first baby, but took 6 extra weeks because I got a new job. I got 16 weeks paid from my law firm when I had my second baby. Around 12-16 weeks, you start feeling human again. I don't understand why we can't come together and help all families. Even women who work cleaning my office or at the McDonald's should be able to stay with their babies for a reasonable time.
Disagree. If you can't afford children without government assistance you shouldn't have them. Period.
It would be nice it we could sterilize all poor people so they wouldn't have babies, but that is not reality.
Or heaven forbid people just wait to have children until they are financially able. My husband is a Correctional Officer and I'm a Paralegal. We're saving for a maternity leave and then I will probably work part time if at all. It's not like we're attorneys or doctors. People either need to wait to have kids or lower their standard of living if they really feel they can't get by on one income. My mother lives in Canada and her husband makes way more than me and mine combined. Yet they are scraping by because of taxes.
Not everyone is as responsible as you are. It's just not going to happen.
Some people will never be financially able to save for maternity leave. They should never have children? But regardless of whether they "should," they will.
People who argue against paid maternity leave are the same ones that argue against providing birth control and abortions. With the same argument that everyone should take care of themselves. Yes, maybe they should, but they don't and maybe they can't. But we can't even bring ourselves to help pay a tiny amount for birth control to avoid having to help pay a huge amount for raising a child.
"Affluent women are usually strategic about their decision to have kids. They have multiple conversations with their partners. They write budgets and plan the best time for maternity leave. It's hard for this group to understand why a woman would decide to give birth without her rubber ducks in a row. But Cherlin says low-income mothers grow up in environments where it's normal to rely on welfare, part-time jobs and family to raise a baby. A child doesn't need to fit into their lives; their lives will bend to accommodate a new addition.
Even if they don't want a baby, many pregnant women feel their only option is to give birth. They may not have the education or funds to prioritize birth control. They may not have the money or support to have an abortion."
That's true, I don't agree with abortion, and I think people should pay for their own birth control. I agree that we need to help lower income families, but I just don't see how throwing money at it has helped. It is very hard for me to see people having babies willy nilly with no plans in place. When, like you've pointed out, I and other women on this board try so hard to get our ducks in a row. I'm also sorry if I sound harsh
So what you're saying is poor people can't have sex? If they shouldn't have kids unless they can pay for them and they should pay for their own birth control, and they can't get an abortion if something unexpected does happen, then what is the plan?
Also, your taxes will be higher if you take away government assistance from families. That's when kids end up in foster care, which is far more expensive.
If they sincerely don't have the money for condoms and they don't have the money to raise the children they produce and they don't feel like giving up said kids then no they probably shouldn't be procreating.
If I honestly saw government assistance lifting people out of poverty I'd be all for it.But all I see is the government helping to perpetuate the cycle of poverty and dependence on the government.
It's interesting how you can all come up with every excuse in the book to defend people who can't perform even the most basic tasks like caring for their own children and yet you think I'm mean for not wanting to be responsible for caring for other people's children.
As cattlebride said, paid maternity leave doesn't bother me as much as other things, but really when does it end? My sister is 23 with two babies and she and her boyfriend get free food, housing, healthcare, and pretty much every program the state of California offers as her boyfriends parents did, and now her children do...The government cannot replace the family. We need to focus on fixing families instead of giving everyone more free stuff.
I'm not sure what you mean by "fix families"? How would you do this?
In all seriousness, if all social safety net programs disappeared, what do you think would happen? All the poor people will magically get jobs and become middle class?
I live in a state that doesn't offer short term disability. I already looked into it So I get 12 weeks unpaid but I'll probably have to take only 6.
Edit: so I see a lot of people complaining that they have to take short term disability and it irks me because I can't even do that. Please be happy it's available to you. Ohio doesn't participate.
my state doesn't participate, but my company does. I know not all companies do either, so I'm lucky, but aren't there STD plans you can buy into for yourself? Aflac or what not type of plans?
Just to add my $.02, my company only had the standard FMLA "you can have your position, or an equal one, after 12 weeks." I went to my boss and the president of the company after I found out I was pregnant and told them their "maternity leave" policy was severely lacking. I presented to them what our competitors, customers, and vendors offer, and information on the benefits of a family friendly policy, and after reviewing they did change the policy (STD covers 60%, company will cover the reaming 40% for 6 weeks). It isn't great, but it's better than nothing (which is what we had before).
TL:DR If you work somewhere with a bare bones leave policy, aka FMLA, do something about it. It's possible to make a change.
For those in other countries, I'm curious, do you feel this creates any bias against women when it comes to trying to get a job?
I think as it is, it happens here. Legally they can't ask marital status, about family, etc but I think it's kind of assumed to be a potential issue.
LFAF/Nov 16 challenge: Bad TV moms that shouldn't be celebrated
BFP #1 10/30/15 MMC found 11/30/15 D&C 12/11/15 EDD 7/9/16
healing comes in waves, and maybe today the wave hits the rocks and that’s ok, that’s ok, darling. you are still healing, you are still healing- Ijeoma Umebinyuo, be gentle with yourself BFP #2 3/21 EDD 11/28/16
Well, it sort of does, but I don't think that's because of the leave. It's mostly because of what happens when they come back, you know, moms being less willing to do long hours, staying home when the kids are sick... It is not legal to base hiring decisions on potential pregnancy or to ask candidayes for it. But yes, it happens in some companies. Othercompanies are cool with it. It helps that it's not the employers who pay for the leave, but the healthcare coverage (universal and public here in Belgium).
Honestly, if I were an employer, I would not want a mom from a six week old baby on my workforce. I know I would have been useless at that point.
I live in a state that doesn't offer short term disability. I already looked into it So I get 12 weeks unpaid but I'll probably have to take only 6.
Edit: so I see a lot of people complaining that they have to take short term disability and it irks me because I can't even do that. Please be happy it's available to you. Ohio doesn't participate.
my state doesn't participate, but my company does. I know not all companies do either, so I'm lucky, but aren't there STD plans you can buy into for yourself? Aflac or what not type of plans?
Just to add my $.02, my company only had the standard FMLA "you can have your position, or an equal one, after 12 weeks." I went to my boss and the president of the company after I found out I was pregnant and told them their "maternity leave" policy was severely lacking. I presented to them what our competitors, customers, and vendors offer, and information on the benefits of a family friendly policy, and after reviewing they did change the policy (STD covers 60%, company will cover the reaming 40% for 6 weeks). It isn't great, but it's better than nothing (which is what we had before).
TL:DR If you work somewhere with a bare bones leave policy, aka FMLA, do something about it. It's possible to make a change.
My company doesn't offer STD and they told me to "try with the state", which doesn't offer. I'll have to look into private coverage for that. Thanks!
Him:31♥Me:27
NTNP#1 since 12/14, TTC#1 since 4/15 LPD diagnosis 9/15 Femara + TI #1: 12/15 - 1/16 = BFN Femara + Ovidrel + TI #2: 1/16 - 2/16 = BFN Femara + Ovidrel + TI #3: 2/16 - 3/16 = BFP (Squish) 3/18/16, no growth/HB 4/12/16, MC on 5/3/16 Taking a break from trying to focus on graduate school!
So I looked into it. Unfortunately Aflac doesn't offer individual STD, only through work, Mutual of Omaha only covers you if you sustain an injury during delivery and not just routine maternity leave. It seems most plans no longer cover this unless you already have the insurance or your work offers. Sad thing really.
Him:31♥Me:27
NTNP#1 since 12/14, TTC#1 since 4/15 LPD diagnosis 9/15 Femara + TI #1: 12/15 - 1/16 = BFN Femara + Ovidrel + TI #2: 1/16 - 2/16 = BFN Femara + Ovidrel + TI #3: 2/16 - 3/16 = BFP (Squish) 3/18/16, no growth/HB 4/12/16, MC on 5/3/16 Taking a break from trying to focus on graduate school!
My husband is in residency training to be a surgeon. He has a minimum of 5 years but could have a few more if he decides on fellowship. During this time hours are very long and pay is low. We will be lucky if he gets 1-2 days off when we have a baby. One of us should be able to stay home during those first weeks, but since I will be unpaid we cannot afford me taking off 12 weeks.
If we waited until we can afford it, we will both be 34 or older. While it's absolutely possible to start having kids then, it brings up a whole other topic of reduced fertility if we want 3 kids.
Waiting until we are in a better situation doesn't work for us. And paid maternity leave would give me so much peace of mind and eventual pleasure in bonding with LO (which all parents deserve in those first weeks).
I understand those of you who disagree with government funded paid maternity leave because I do know some people (although certainly not the majority) would take advantage of it. But I know a lot of people in similar situations to mine - responsible citizens who are in an an underpaid service career with limited time off.
I would much rather deal with a year or two of saving myself for the time I plan on taking off than have both me and my husband pay insanely high taxes our entire career.It's not like the government has a tree that they just go pluck dollar bills from.Nothing is ever free and I don't see the point of the government as the middle man.But that's probably an UO.
It would not cost "insanely high taxes". And it would be a cost I would definitely be able and willing to pay. Every mother deserves time off to be with her baby, even if she could not afford to save for maternity leave. Have you watched the video? Not everyone makes enough money to do this for themselves and even non-rich people should be able to procreate. Also, why should a baby suffer because her mother is not rich enough to save for maternity leave.
Here is an article from fortune estimating the cost of a maternity leave would be less than $1 per week per worker.
We live in a society and we all benefit from longer leaves for mothers. Healthier babies. Longer breastfeeding. Healthier Women. Women who will keep their jobs instead of quitting because they have to go back to work at 2 weeks.
Personally, I an attorney at a big law firm. I got 12 weeks paid from my accounting firm when I had a first baby, but took 6 extra weeks because I got a new job. I got 16 weeks paid from my law firm when I had my second baby. Around 12-16 weeks, you start feeling human again. I don't understand why we can't come together and help all families. Even women who work cleaning my office or at the McDonald's should be able to stay with their babies for a reasonable time.
Disagree. If you can't afford children without government assistance you shouldn't have them. Period.
It would be nice it we could sterilize all poor people so they wouldn't have babies, but that is not reality.
Or heaven forbid people just wait to have children until they are financially able. My husband is a Correctional Officer and I'm a Paralegal. We're saving for a maternity leave and then I will probably work part time if at all. It's not like we're attorneys or doctors. People either need to wait to have kids or lower their standard of living if they really feel they can't get by on one income. My mother lives in Canada and her husband makes way more than me and mine combined. Yet they are scraping by because of taxes.
Not everyone is as responsible as you are. It's just not going to happen.
Some people will never be financially able to save for maternity leave. They should never have children? But regardless of whether they "should," they will.
People who argue against paid maternity leave are the same ones that argue against providing birth control and abortions. With the same argument that everyone should take care of themselves. Yes, maybe they should, but they don't and maybe they can't. But we can't even bring ourselves to help pay a tiny amount for birth control to avoid having to help pay a huge amount for raising a child.
"Affluent women are usually strategic about their decision to have kids. They have multiple conversations with their partners. They write budgets and plan the best time for maternity leave. It's hard for this group to understand why a woman would decide to give birth without her rubber ducks in a row. But Cherlin says low-income mothers grow up in environments where it's normal to rely on welfare, part-time jobs and family to raise a baby. A child doesn't need to fit into their lives; their lives will bend to accommodate a new addition.
Even if they don't want a baby, many pregnant women feel their only option is to give birth. They may not have the education or funds to prioritize birth control. They may not have the money or support to have an abortion."
That's true, I don't agree with abortion, and I think people should pay for their own birth control. I agree that we need to help lower income families, but I just don't see how throwing money at it has helped. It is very hard for me to see people having babies willy nilly with no plans in place. When, like you've pointed out, I and other women on this board try so hard to get our ducks in a row. I'm also sorry if I sound harsh
So what you're saying is poor people can't have sex? If they shouldn't have kids unless they can pay for them and they should pay for their own birth control, and they can't get an abortion if something unexpected does happen, then what is the plan?
Also, your taxes will be higher if you take away government assistance from families. That's when kids end up in foster care, which is far more expensive.
If they sincerely don't have the money for condoms and they don't have the money to raise the children they produce and they don't feel like giving up said kids then no they probably shouldn't be procreating.
If I honestly saw government assistance lifting people out of poverty I'd be all for it.But all I see is the government helping to perpetuate the cycle of poverty and dependence on the government.
It's interesting how you can all come up with every excuse in the book to defend people who can't perform even the most basic tasks like caring for their own children and yet you think I'm mean for not wanting to be responsible for caring for other people's children.
As cattlebride said, paid maternity leave doesn't bother me as much as other things, but really when does it end? My sister is 23 with two babies and she and her boyfriend get free food, housing, healthcare, and pretty much every program the state of California offers as her boyfriends parents did, and now her children do...The government cannot replace the family. We need to focus on fixing families instead of giving everyone more free stuff.
OK, I'm going to start by saying I'm super passionate about this because I work with these families we're discussing. All of them receive food stamps. All of them have Medicaid. I do home based therapy, and in prior jobs I did infant mental health and foster care, so if you want to talk about trying to "fix" families, that is essentially my job. However, I will say it's very demeaning to these families to assume they need fixing just because they require government assistance. There are all different reasons they need it, such as disability or unemployment or underemployment. But I digress.
More often than not these families genuinely need it. More often than not these children were not planned. And more often than not these unplanned children arrived because they couldn't afford birth control, couldn't go to planned parenthood because my conservative town won't allow one, and they had sex because they are an adult and they wanted to. These families are then stuck scrambling and they have trouble affording rent and food. So they get assistance, which really doesn't even give them enough to get by. More often than not these are women who have had the father of the child leave and then they have to find a job, except with that job comes daycare and they suddenly realize that it's even more of a struggle. It's super easy to say that people abuse the system and have no right to have children, but when you actually talk with these are, you realize how important it is that we have services.
TL;DR Adults are allowed to have sex and families come in different shapes and sizes and that doesn't make them bad.
Me: 28, DH: 28 Diagnosed with PCOS: Summer 2007 Married: July 2013 Began TTC: June 2015
This is slightly off topic, but I think this is important research to share that may help explain why women in the US are "grateful" for 6 weeks paid maternity leave when women in other parts of the world are given a much better deal.
This doesn't pertain to just maternity leave (in fact, it's not even mentioned in this research), but don't you find it interesting that the US, which has high inequality among its citizens also wins all other categories for most obese, worst mental health, highest in infant mortality, highest teenage pregnancies, highest homicide rates, highest rate of imprisonment, and lowest social mobility (meaning the poor stay poor). Granted the research was from 2009, but I truly cannot imagine that these statistics have changed for the better.
It's interesting, too, that countries like the Netherlands and Sweden, who have lower inequality also score better in all of the above mentioned categories. Just food for thought.
ETA: I believe that all of these things, the stuff mentioned in the research I shared, as well as the discussion about maternity leave and the 'apparent' entitlement of poor, are all related.
BUT 'MURICA!!!! MURICA FTW!!! Still the best at everything... well except those things... well damn.
LFAF/Nov 16 challenge: Bad TV moms that shouldn't be celebrated
BFP #1 10/30/15 MMC found 11/30/15 D&C 12/11/15 EDD 7/9/16
healing comes in waves, and maybe today the wave hits the rocks and that’s ok, that’s ok, darling. you are still healing, you are still healing- Ijeoma Umebinyuo, be gentle with yourself BFP #2 3/21 EDD 11/28/16
For those who hate government assistance and think people just abuse it....
My family grew up poor. We were on food stamps and housing assistance. We lived in a one bedroom apartment. My sister and I shared bunk beds in a walk-in closet (yes I said closet). We ate butter wonder bread sandwiches and boiled hot dogs. My dad worked 3 jobs at one point to survive. My mom became a nurse. You know what I see when I look at my parents? Two people who started from the bottom and made it to the top!! They struggled and, yes, they relied on government assistance. That assistance helped them become who they are now. They both climbed to the top of their professions. They eventually bought a house where we had our own rooms, brand new kitchen, a pool(!). They now both own their dream cars, travel the world, paid in cash for both of their daughters weddings, and are both soon to be retired at a young age. My sister was the first (yes FIRST) person in our family to graduate high school. Then went on to graduate with a masters in college. We all followed through on careers and made something of ourselves. Government assistance helped my family and I am thankful it does exist.
As for maternity leave... The U.S. is very behind! I am hopeful for change in the future though. I believe that the more we voice our opinions and fight the more things will change. My job does STD which is 60% of your salary and then you can use your vacation/sick/personal time to make up the other 40% of your salary. I happen to get a sh!t load of time a year plus we carry over, so I am set to be out about 6++ months.
I know I'm late to this party, but wow... I can't believe some of the comments I just read.
I want to start by saying that I work for my state's government in human services. I work closely with the division that provides these horrible, terrible (sarcasm) benefits to families that allows said families to attempt to live with some sort of respect and dignity. These horrible, terrible benefits are abused by LESS THAN 1% of recipients, and actually, most recipients utilize government assistance for LESS THAN 7 MONTHS. My state spends more money in investigations to combat fraud and abuse than money wasted as a result of fraud and abuse. This is to accommodate those who are against government assistance. Please think about this... Those who have pushed for the fight against fraud and abuse have won, and it costs more tax payer money than the actual fraud and abuse. So thanks for that.
Also. The argument that people "shouldn't have children if they can't afford them" is the most ridiculous and ignorant argument in this game. This is such a moot point! It doesn't matter what a person should do or shouldn't do... Poor people will continue to procreate even if the right wing conservatives tell them they don't fit the utopian profile of the group of people graciously allowed to procreate in this country. You can tell poor people to wait to have children until they have enough money to do so all you want, but in case you haven't noticed, it won't happen. Humans are genetically engineered to reproduce and it wasn't until recent history that we started shaming people for having children if they haven't saved up three months' worth of salary.
@kap1988, I'm curious... Should people who earn minimum wage (you know, the people who serve you burgers at your local restaurant, the people who clean the toilets of your office building, the people who take your money at the gas station when you buy your gas and snacks... Yeah, THOSE people.) should these people be revoked of the right to have children? Because THOSE people earn a minimum wage living, and congrats to you for your middle class earnings, but THOSE people do not have the ability to save like you. It is an incredibly uneducated argument to say that these people should get a better job (maybe... your job? And YOU can work at McDonald's??), or they should work harder, or they should get a second job. Who would serve you burgers if these folks didn't work at McDonald's? Who would clean your toilets? How would you get your gas for your car?
Doesn't matter. People across all income levels will continue to reproduce whether the white right-winged man tells them they should or not. It's just going to happen. That just isn't an argument.
I'm sorry to have deviated so far from the original thread; I just couldn't believe what I was reading tonight. My post is already super long by I wanted to also say I'm seriously disappointed in our country's take on paid maternity leave. I am lucky to have STD available to me, which I won't complain about but will also say that I feel we have a right to desire more than STD.
I feel like people are just not provided with the actual facts to be able to think effectively about this. Sure, I absolutely do understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but in some cases, some folks' opinions are based off of completely bogus, I researched "facts" and based more off of "poor me has to pay my hard-earned money in to a program that I know little to nothing about, aside from the garbage that Fox News spouts off at 9pm every night."
TL;DR-- My opinion is that my cat shouldn't shit on the floor, but she still shits on the floor, even when I try to tell her that she should only shit in her litter box. I don't care if her litter box isn't clean... She should still only shit in her box because I'm bigger and more powerful than her and I make all the decisions around here and if she doesn't do what I want, I'm not feeding her today.
((Edit to add: I feed my cats!!! And I keep their boxes clean!! You all know how I love my cats! It was just an analogy...))
This world would be a very different (and likely worse) place if "poor people" weren't allowed to procreate. Some of our most forward thinkers, inventors, revolutionaries and political figures grew up poor: Abe Lincoln grew up poor, J.K. Rowling was a single mother on welfare while she was writing the Harry Potter books, the list goes on.
What's sad is that this day in age, many of the people who are saying that the poor should not be allowed to procreate are 2-3 paychecks away from poverty themselves because of all the massive debt they have taken on with student loans, car loans and mortgages.
Some people are disgusting. I can't believe only a few people have disagreed with the "poor people should not procreate.
That's BS. I don't give a shit how rich or poor you are, everyone should have the option to have children.
What if your life had not panned out and you were poor?. Do you think you would have the same opinion?.
I think a lot of is disagree but don't feel like getting warnings/ and or banned fighting with a woman who is clearly so ignorant the argument wouldn't help.
@FiancB in theory it shouldn't but it sometimes does affect hiring practices. This mostly happens in male dominated industries. However, there are a number of businesses and professions that have started trying to appeal to mothers and women (as well as family minded men) by offering flexible hours, additional maternity leave etc so there's the flip side too.
A few things from my end of the world. We have free health care, free public education, paid maternity leave, a relatively high minimum wage and welfare available. When the current government tried to reduce a lot of this, there was an outcry. In most countries (from what I've noticed) that have these kinds of "safety net" social programs available, the people that live there can't see why you wouldn't want it. In this case it's not about rich/poor right/left, it's about what's in the best interest of the country. You don't pay a tax for someone else's kid to go to school because you might one day have a kid, you do it because you don't want to live in a country that's full of people who are uneducated. Therefore you pay a tax for maternity leave because you don't want a bunch of children growing up with attachment disorders, poor health etc and mothers who are forced to be away from their young babies causing a strain on health and intervention programs. To say that we should all be responsible for ourselves is great but it's detracting from the actual point of these programs. It's not about responsibility, it's the society you want to build. At least that's the general sentiment here.
In reference to those that say there are people abuse the system. Well duh, there will be. That doesn't mean the systems wrong or irretrievably broken. It means you should tweak it to minimise the number that abuse it. I work in a low social-economic school in a tough suburb with lots of social issues but very few of the (large number of) people on welfare are abusing it. I can name maybe 2 mothers out of hundreds of families and this is a concentrated pool.
Finally, you might be interested to know (no offense intended) that most people over here talk about not wanting an "American system" when referring to education, welfare, minimum wage, maternity leave etc. I find the cultural difference quite interesting in this area
In my company, we get short term disability for up to three months. This would kick in ten business days after going on maternity leave. Those ten days are covered by whatever vacation, sick, or personal time we have, otherwise they're unpaid.
I'm not 100% sure on if all three months are paid regardless or if it's based only on doctor's orders, but I do know we can take three months off for sure. Not sure if I would take all three months off if it wasn't paid, but I will definitely take two regardless. DH and I have a savings plan right now, so it would probably depend on how much was in that when the time came.
Our company is the same. Short term disability for up to 3 months. However, with ours it is by doctors orders. Standard for natural birth is 6 weeks, 8 weeks if you have a c-section. I'm sure everyone knows with the FMLA law in the US you can be gone up to 12 weeks and your employer must give you back a job at the same level as the one you left, but this is not paid time unless you have an amazing employer or some other benefit. I get three weeks vacation and one week sick time so being that hypothetical baby would come in 2016, I'll probably use some of that extra time in addition to my leave.
Edited bc I forgot to say that DH doesn't get any paid leave. He can take his vacation (he does get like 5 weeks) or he can use unpaid FMLA time. We haven't really talked about it but I kindof feel like he will take a week off and then go back to work if I seem ok. I kindof imagine my mom coming to stay with us for a while instead or me being alone for weeks.
Me: 28 - DH: 33 Married: Sept. 2012 Began TTC #1: Jan. 2015 BFP #1: July 2015, EDD 3/7/2016, Blighted Ovum, D&C at 12 weeks BFP #2: December 2015, EDD 8/27/2016, Blighted Ovum, D&C at 7 weeks BFP #3: August 2016, EDD 4/23/2017, Missed MC, D&C at 8 weeks BFP #4: January 2017, EDD 9/26/2017
I know I'm late to this party, but wow... I can't believe some of the comments I just read.
I want to start by saying that I work for my state's government in human services. I work closely with the division that provides these horrible, terrible (sarcasm) benefits to families that allows said families to attempt to live with some sort of respect and dignity. These horrible, terrible benefits are abused by LESS THAN 1% of recipients, and actually, most recipients utilize government assistance for LESS THAN 7 MONTHS. My state spends more money in investigations to combat fraud and abuse than money wasted as a result of fraud and abuse. This is to accommodate those who are against government assistance. Please think about this... Those who have pushed for the fight against fraud and abuse have won, and it costs more tax payer money than the actual fraud and abuse. So thanks for that.
Thiiiiis. People in my circle love to say that people should have to pass a drug test to receive welfare. Well, Florida (I think?) tried that and almost everyone passed and it cost way more to drug test everyone than it did to just give out the welfare. Woopsie daisy! But people keep touting that shit. Conservatism seems generally more interested in punishment than in actual best interest.
I seriously want to try living in another country to experience the differences firsthand. Canada would be the easiest transition, but man, I really don't want to move somewhere even colder...
LFAF/Nov 16 challenge: Bad TV moms that shouldn't be celebrated
BFP #1 10/30/15 MMC found 11/30/15 D&C 12/11/15 EDD 7/9/16
healing comes in waves, and maybe today the wave hits the rocks and that’s ok, that’s ok, darling. you are still healing, you are still healing- Ijeoma Umebinyuo, be gentle with yourself BFP #2 3/21 EDD 11/28/16
So what I'm gathering is that poor people shouldn't conceive and they also should afford their own birth control so that they don't conceive, and if by Chance they DO conceive, abortions shouldn't be available to them (because they made their bed now sleep in it, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and get it done right) and women who have a 6 week old baby at home are useless so we probably shouldn't hire them, and we shouldn't offer maternity/paternity leave through the government so that they can adjust to this new period and return to work as strong employees. Hmmmmmmm. MMMMMMMMMK. This makes PERFECT sense {side eye} :-@
@mrs3615 just to clarify: when I said that I would have been a useless employee at six weeks post partum, I obviously meant it as an argument for longer (paid) maternity leave, not to defend hiring policies that are discriminating against women.
Some people are disgusting. I can't believe only a few people have disagreed with the "poor people should not procreate.
That's BS. I don't give a shit how rich or poor you are, everyone should have the option to have children.
What if your life had not panned out and you were poor?. Do you think you would have the same opinion?.
I think a lot of is disagree but don't feel like getting warnings/ and or banned fighting with a woman who is clearly so ignorant the argument wouldn't help.
People who talk about the poor like they have no rights are probably racist and don't like puppies. But that's just my ignorance talking.
Re: John Oliver
Me 28 DH 28 Married 2012
TTC #1 since March 2015
Metformin + Femara + Gonal F + Trigger = BFP 6/24/16
EDD 3/3/17
Found out it's a girl! 9/23/16
"Affluent women are usually strategic about their decision to have kids. They have multiple conversations with their partners. They write budgets and plan the best time for maternity leave. It's hard for this group to understand why a woman would decide to give birth without her rubber ducks in a row. But Cherlin says low-income mothers grow up in environments where it's normal to rely on welfare, part-time jobs and family to raise a baby. A child doesn't need to fit into their lives; their lives will bend to accommodate a new addition.
Even if they don't want a baby, many pregnant women feel their only option is to give birth. They may not have the education or funds to prioritize birth control. They may not have the money or support to have an abortion."
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/angelina-chapin/cohabitation_b_5552530.html
2010: Infertility
October 2015: missed miscarriage #2 at 11 weeks (trisomy 22)
I am an orthopedic surgeon, can't operate while pregnant, it's the hospital rules, high levels of stress and long hours which is standing obviously.
So before we started ttc, I started counselling, for patients and family before and after surgery. I might be able to do minor OT, but who knows.
@kap1988 - I do get the same salary though.
Edit- left out words
Me 28 DH 28 Married 2012
TTC #1 since March 2015
Metformin + Femara + Gonal F + Trigger = BFP 6/24/16
EDD 3/3/17
Found out it's a girl! 9/23/16
2 IUIs - BFNs (May & June '17)
IVF August 2017 - BFP!! First Beta - 365
I live in a country with insanely high taxes and I love it. Knowing that whatever happens, I have access to high quality, almost free health care and that DD will get great efucation for free, it's priceless. I'm so glad I don't have to worry all the time about stuff like that.
Also, not just moms benefit from maternity leave. Even if a mom makes poor life choices, I do believe paid maternity leave is in the best interest of babies, too. I'm quite happy to contribute to that.
Also, your taxes will be higher if you take away government assistance from families. That's when kids end up in foster care, which is far more expensive.
Diagnosed with PCOS: Summer 2007
Married: July 2013
Began TTC: June 2015
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/58d258
2 IUIs - BFNs (May & June '17)
IVF August 2017 - BFP!! First Beta - 365
Edit: so I see a lot of people complaining that they have to take short term disability and it irks me because I can't even do that. Please be happy it's available to you. Ohio doesn't participate.
LPD diagnosis 9/15
Femara + TI #1: 12/15 - 1/16 = BFN
Femara + Ovidrel + TI #2: 1/16 - 2/16 = BFN
Femara + Ovidrel + TI #3: 2/16 - 3/16 = BFP (Squish) 3/18/16, no growth/HB 4/12/16, MC on 5/3/16
Taking a break from trying to focus on graduate school!
If I honestly saw government assistance lifting people out of poverty I'd be all for it.But all I see is the government helping to perpetuate the cycle of poverty and dependence on the government.
It's interesting how you can all come up with every excuse in the book to defend people who can't perform even the most basic tasks like caring for their own children and yet you think I'm mean for not wanting to be responsible for caring for other people's children.
As cattlebride said, paid maternity leave doesn't bother me as much as other things, but really when does it end? My sister is 23 with two babies and she and her boyfriend get free food, housing, healthcare, and pretty much every program the state of California offers as her boyfriends parents did, and now her children do...The government cannot replace the family. We need to focus on fixing families instead of giving everyone more free stuff.
Me 28 DH 28 Married 2012
TTC #1 since March 2015
Metformin + Femara + Gonal F + Trigger = BFP 6/24/16
EDD 3/3/17
Found out it's a girl! 9/23/16
If I honestly saw government assistance lifting people out of poverty I'd be all for it.But all I see is the government helping to perpetuate the cycle of poverty and dependence on the government.
It's interesting how you can all come up with every excuse in the book to defend people who can't perform even the most basic tasks like caring for their own children and yet you think I'm mean for not wanting to be responsible for caring for other people's children.
As cattlebride said, paid maternity leave doesn't bother me as much as other things, but really when does it end? My sister is 23 with two babies and she and her boyfriend get free food, housing, healthcare, and pretty much every program the state of California offers as her boyfriends parents did, and now her children do...The government cannot replace the family. We need to focus on fixing families instead of giving everyone more free stuff.
I'm not sure what you mean by "fix families"? How would you do this?
2010: Infertility
October 2015: missed miscarriage #2 at 11 weeks (trisomy 22)
I'm not sure what you mean by "fix families"? How would you do this?
In all seriousness, if all social safety net programs disappeared, what do you think would happen? All the poor people will magically get jobs and become middle class?
my state doesn't participate, but my company does. I know not all companies do either, so I'm lucky, but aren't there STD plans you can buy into for yourself? Aflac or what not type of plans?
Just to add my $.02, my company only had the standard FMLA "you can have your position, or an equal one, after 12 weeks." I went to my boss and the president of the company after I found out I was pregnant and told them their "maternity leave" policy was severely lacking. I presented to them what our competitors, customers, and vendors offer, and information on the benefits of a family friendly policy, and after reviewing they did change the policy (STD covers 60%, company will cover the reaming 40% for 6 weeks). It isn't great, but it's better than nothing (which is what we had before).
TL:DR If you work somewhere with a bare bones leave policy, aka FMLA, do something about it. It's possible to make a change.
BFP #2 3/21 EDD 11/28/16
Honestly, if I were an employer, I would not want a mom from a six week old baby on my workforce. I know I would have been useless at that point.
LPD diagnosis 9/15
Femara + TI #1: 12/15 - 1/16 = BFN
Femara + Ovidrel + TI #2: 1/16 - 2/16 = BFN
Femara + Ovidrel + TI #3: 2/16 - 3/16 = BFP (Squish) 3/18/16, no growth/HB 4/12/16, MC on 5/3/16
Taking a break from trying to focus on graduate school!
LPD diagnosis 9/15
Femara + TI #1: 12/15 - 1/16 = BFN
Femara + Ovidrel + TI #2: 1/16 - 2/16 = BFN
Femara + Ovidrel + TI #3: 2/16 - 3/16 = BFP (Squish) 3/18/16, no growth/HB 4/12/16, MC on 5/3/16
Taking a break from trying to focus on graduate school!
If we waited until we can afford it, we will both be 34 or older. While it's absolutely possible to start having kids then, it brings up a whole other topic of reduced fertility if we want 3 kids.
Waiting until we are in a better situation doesn't work for us. And paid maternity leave would give me so much peace of mind and eventual pleasure in bonding with LO (which all parents deserve in those first weeks).
I understand those of you who disagree with government funded paid maternity leave because I do know some people (although certainly not the majority) would take advantage of it. But I know a lot of people in similar situations to mine - responsible citizens who are in an an underpaid service career with limited time off.
More often than not these families genuinely need it. More often than not these children were not planned. And more often than not these unplanned children arrived because they couldn't afford birth control, couldn't go to planned parenthood because my conservative town won't allow one, and they had sex because they are an adult and they wanted to. These families are then stuck scrambling and they have trouble affording rent and food. So they get assistance, which really doesn't even give them enough to get by. More often than not these are women who have had the father of the child leave and then they have to find a job, except with that job comes daycare and they suddenly realize that it's even more of a struggle. It's super easy to say that people abuse the system and have no right to have children, but when you actually talk with these are, you realize how important it is that we have services.
TL;DR Adults are allowed to have sex and families come in different shapes and sizes and that doesn't make them bad.
Diagnosed with PCOS: Summer 2007
Married: July 2013
Began TTC: June 2015
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/58d258
It's interesting, too, that countries like the Netherlands and Sweden, who have lower inequality also score better in all of the above mentioned categories. Just food for thought.
TTC #1 - Nov '14
DS born 10/18
BFP #2 3/21 EDD 11/28/16
My family grew up poor. We were on food stamps and housing assistance. We lived in a one bedroom apartment. My sister and I shared bunk beds in a walk-in closet (yes I said closet). We ate butter wonder bread sandwiches and boiled hot dogs. My dad worked 3 jobs at one point to survive. My mom became a nurse. You know what I see when I look at my parents? Two people who started from the bottom and made it to the top!! They struggled and, yes, they relied on government assistance. That assistance helped them become who they are now. They both climbed to the top of their professions. They eventually bought a house where we had our own rooms, brand new kitchen, a pool(!). They now both own their dream cars, travel the world, paid in cash for both of their daughters weddings, and are both soon to be retired at a young age. My sister was the first (yes FIRST) person in our family to graduate high school. Then went on to graduate with a masters in college. We all followed through on careers and made something of ourselves. Government assistance helped my family and I am thankful it does exist.
As for maternity leave... The U.S. is very behind! I am hopeful for change in the future though. I believe that the more we voice our opinions and fight the more things will change. My job does STD which is 60% of your salary and then you can use your vacation/sick/personal time to make up the other 40% of your salary. I happen to get a sh!t load of time a year plus we carry over, so I am set to be out about 6++ months.
I want to start by saying that I work for my state's government in human services. I work closely with the division that provides these horrible, terrible (sarcasm) benefits to families that allows said families to attempt to live with some sort of respect and dignity. These horrible, terrible benefits are abused by LESS THAN 1% of recipients, and actually, most recipients utilize government assistance for LESS THAN 7 MONTHS. My state spends more money in investigations to combat fraud and abuse than money wasted as a result of fraud and abuse. This is to accommodate those who are against government assistance. Please think about this... Those who have pushed for the fight against fraud and abuse have won, and it costs more tax payer money than the actual fraud and abuse. So thanks for that.
Also. The argument that people "shouldn't have children if they can't afford them" is the most ridiculous and ignorant argument in this game. This is such a moot point! It doesn't matter what a person should do or shouldn't do... Poor people will continue to procreate even if the right wing conservatives tell them they don't fit the utopian profile of the group of people graciously allowed to procreate in this country. You can tell poor people to wait to have children until they have enough money to do so all you want, but in case you haven't noticed, it won't happen. Humans are genetically engineered to reproduce and it wasn't until recent history that we started shaming people for having children if they haven't saved up three months' worth of salary.
@kap1988, I'm curious... Should people who earn minimum wage (you know, the people who serve you burgers at your local restaurant, the people who clean the toilets of your office building, the people who take your money at the gas station when you buy your gas and snacks... Yeah, THOSE people.) should these people be revoked of the right to have children? Because THOSE people earn a minimum wage living, and congrats to you for your middle class earnings, but THOSE people do not have the ability to save like you. It is an incredibly uneducated argument to say that these people should get a better job (maybe... your job? And YOU can work at McDonald's??), or they should work harder, or they should get a second job. Who would serve you burgers if these folks didn't work at McDonald's? Who would clean your toilets? How would you get your gas for your car?
Doesn't matter. People across all income levels will continue to reproduce whether the white right-winged man tells them they should or not. It's just going to happen. That just isn't an argument.
I'm sorry to have deviated so far from the original thread; I just couldn't believe what I was reading tonight. My post is already super long by I wanted to also say I'm seriously disappointed in our country's take on paid maternity leave. I am lucky to have STD available to me, which I won't complain about but will also say that I feel we have a right to desire more than STD.
I feel like people are just not provided with the actual facts to be able to think effectively about this. Sure, I absolutely do understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but in some cases, some folks' opinions are based off of completely bogus, I researched "facts" and based more off of "poor me has to pay my hard-earned money in to a program that I know little to nothing about, aside from the garbage that Fox News spouts off at 9pm every night."
TL;DR-- My opinion is that my cat shouldn't shit on the floor, but she still shits on the floor, even when I try to tell her that she should only shit in her litter box. I don't care if her litter box isn't clean... She should still only shit in her box because I'm bigger and more powerful than her and I make all the decisions around here and if she doesn't do what I want, I'm not feeding her today.
((Edit to add: I feed my cats!!! And I keep their boxes clean!! You all know how I love my cats! It was just an analogy...))
HSG: Sept 2014, clear tubes
Dx: MFI - Low motility, morph, count (Aug. 2014); Hypothyroidism (May 2015)
Moved to IUIs October 2014
IUI #1 w/ injections: Nov 2014- BFN
IUI #2 w/ injections: Jan 2015- BFN
IUI #3.1 w/ injections: Feb. 2015, cancelled due to cysts- 10 days BCP
IUI #3.2 w/ injections: Feb/March 2015- BFN
IUI #4 w/ 100mg Clomid + Injections: August 2015- BFN
IUI #5 w/ 5mg Femara + Injections: September 2015- BFN
IUI #6 w/ 5mg Femara + Injections: October 2015 - Cancelled due low response
Moved to IVF May 2016
Retrieved 18 eggs on 05/27/2016, 13 were ICSI'd, 9 made it to day-five transfer
Transferred 2 beautiful day-five embryos on 06/01/2016, froze 7
BFP 4dp5dt on 06/05/2016! Line continued to darken beautifully!
EDD: February 17, 2017
Beta #1: 92
Beta #2: 305
Ultrasound #1 - one baby!
Ultrasound #2 - saw heartbeat!
LFAF Badges:
That's BS. I don't give a shit how rich or poor you are, everyone should have the option to have children.
What if your life had not panned out and you were poor?. Do you think you would have the same opinion?.
A few things from my end of the world. We have free health care, free public education, paid maternity leave, a relatively high minimum wage and welfare available. When the current government tried to reduce a lot of this, there was an outcry. In most countries (from what I've noticed) that have these kinds of "safety net" social programs available, the people that live there can't see why you wouldn't want it. In this case it's not about rich/poor right/left, it's about what's in the best interest of the country. You don't pay a tax for someone else's kid to go to school because you might one day have a kid, you do it because you don't want to live in a country that's full of people who are uneducated. Therefore you pay a tax for maternity leave because you don't want a bunch of children growing up with attachment disorders, poor health etc and mothers who are forced to be away from their young babies causing a strain on health and intervention programs. To say that we should all be responsible for ourselves is great but it's detracting from the actual point of these programs. It's not about responsibility, it's the society you want to build. At least that's the general sentiment here.
In reference to those that say there are people abuse the system. Well duh, there will be. That doesn't mean the systems wrong or irretrievably broken. It means you should tweak it to minimise the number that abuse it. I work in a low social-economic school in a tough suburb with lots of social issues but very few of the (large number of) people on welfare are abusing it. I can name maybe 2 mothers out of hundreds of families and this is a concentrated pool.
Finally, you might be interested to know (no offense intended) that most people over here talk about not wanting an "American system" when referring to education, welfare, minimum wage, maternity leave etc. I find the cultural difference quite interesting in this area
Expecting Double Trouble, April 2016
Edited bc I forgot to say that DH doesn't get any paid leave. He can take his vacation (he does get like 5 weeks) or he can use unpaid FMLA time. We haven't really talked about it but I kindof feel like he will take a week off and then go back to work if I seem ok. I kindof imagine my mom coming to stay with us for a while instead or me being alone for weeks.
Married: Sept. 2012
Began TTC #1: Jan. 2015
BFP #1: July 2015, EDD 3/7/2016, Blighted Ovum, D&C at 12 weeks
BFP #2: December 2015, EDD 8/27/2016, Blighted Ovum, D&C at 7 weeks
BFP #3: August 2016, EDD 4/23/2017, Missed MC, D&C at 8 weeks
BFP #4: January 2017, EDD 9/26/2017
BFP #2 3/21 EDD 11/28/16
People who talk about the poor like they have no rights are probably racist and don't like puppies. But that's just my ignorance talking.